Disappointingly Low Damage


Kineticist Class

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Verzen wrote:
Unicore wrote:

STR based Earth Kintecists can get pretty solid damage numbers. People are just scared of building into the glass cannon that gets brought down quickly, and so they are mostly building into Earth (from what I have seen on these boards) for melee focused, defensive builds.

I bet we see some minor damage boosting options become more clearly established in the final version of the class, but it is going to stay pretty minor because the entire class design is around peppering lots of enemies every round with damage and controlling the battlefield, by creating terrain effects that force movement, often through difficult terrain. Something designed to boost Air's damage has to be aware of how it is going to stack with a D8 damage die attack, and something that assumes players will only be making one attack a round is going to have to force that issue by taking up three actions to do.

.. they deal 1 additional damage at level 1 and have a 2d4 scatter scree which is worse than scatter scree.

Worse no... Way worse!

Comparing side-by-side

Scatter Scree | Tremor
Actions: 2 | 2+gather
Range: 30ft | 30ft
Area: two contiguous 5-foot cubes | a 5-foot burst within 30 feet
Saving Throw: basic Reflex | basic Fortitude
Difficult terrain duration: 1 minute | until the start of your next turn.
Damage: 1d4+KAS (6,5) | 2d4 (5)
Heightened: +1d4 per spell level | +1d4 per 2 class levels
Initial cost: One of the 3-5 initial cantrips (can extended +2 via feats) | One of 1-3 initial Impulses (depending from your Gate) (can buy an extra via feat)

It's even harder to compare how worse the Impulse has become. The only advantage is have the double of the area. But this not always an advantage (will dependend from opponents and allies positioning) and in order to field control the duration is way worse.
But the worse part always will be the Overflow consuming 1 additional action for nothing.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

anyway enough arguing semantics, onto solutions,
first idea, make them a functionaly 2 handed class, we have had tons of classes that are funneled into 1 hand+free or 1 hand+ shield, or even 1 hand because 2 handed finesse and agile weapons are really hard to get. let us use both hands and bolster the base damage of blasts accordingly.
Secondly, allow melee blasts not to proc aoo, i know most creatures dont have aoo, but for the ones that do, having your basic auto attack proc when you are specced into melee is just needlessly suck.
three, make overflow its own action that boosts the damage/dc of your next impulse but calls for a scaling tough fort save, on a fail the strain of channeling that much element overwelms you and your gathered element dissipates after your next impulse, with damaging impulses scaled to account for a spammier lower dc mode and a riskier higher damage higher dc mode.


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Martialmasters wrote:
3-4 rounds for your table mainly but that's not universal.

No but is what's happened in more than 95% of my encounters.


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Verzen wrote:
Unicore wrote:
And the boomerang makes attacks on the second round as well.
Not counting those because look at the practicality of it. People will literally just move out of the way. They know it's coming so they'll move. In reality it's more like a, "I'm going to waste a few creatures 1st actions" so it acts as a slow to a couple creatures.

Forcing an enemy to take an action to move is very good. That is value.


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Kekkres wrote:

anyway enough arguing semantics, onto solutions,

first idea, make them a functionaly 2 handed class, we have had tons of classes that are funneled into 1 hand+free or 1 hand+ shield, or even 1 hand because 2 handed finesse and agile weapons are really hard to get. let us use both hands and bolster the base damage of blasts accordingly.
Secondly, allow melee blasts not to proc aoo, i know most creatures dont have aoo, but for the ones that do, having your basic auto attack proc when you are specced into melee is just needlessly suck.
three, make overflow its own action that boosts the damage/dc of your next impulse but calls for a scaling tough fort save, on a fail the strain of channeling that much element overwelms you and your gathered element dissipates after your next impulse, with damaging impulses scaled to account for a spammier lower dc mode and a riskier higher damage higher dc mode.

I think balancing Blasts as 2 handed weapons is a good start. What would they look like were that the case?


Verzen wrote:
can you name…

Kineticist has a feat for an action-saving flurry. And more than one aura option to apply flat damage to nearby enemies.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Blasts are a one handed ranged weapon. They should not look like a 2 handed melee weapon. They get a damage bonus as a melee weapon, but they provoke, so thinking of them as primarily melee will disappoint.

Making them take up two hands would be really annoying in how much it would lock them out of being able to do anything with skills (no medicine stuff, nothing with tools) and make them incredibly easy to push off of cliffs.

I don't think it is worth it.


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Verzen wrote:
And gets cantrips! Sure it doesn't get light armor but that's just 1 or 2 AC. Not that big of a deal and doesn't provide much protection.

The Bard, Druids, Clerics and Oracles disagree. They are casters that uses armors, so their defense are even stronger. Including that Battle Oracles with Bows can use heavy armors, fast healing, +2/+6 to damage with strikes, and if multiclass with a sorcerer can complete de strikes with EA or some good Focus Spell making Strike and Cantrips/Focus Spell complementary.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
roquepo wrote:
Kekkres wrote:

anyway enough arguing semantics, onto solutions,

first idea, make them a functionaly 2 handed class, we have had tons of classes that are funneled into 1 hand+free or 1 hand+ shield, or even 1 hand because 2 handed finesse and agile weapons are really hard to get. let us use both hands and bolster the base damage of blasts accordingly.
Secondly, allow melee blasts not to proc aoo, i know most creatures dont have aoo, but for the ones that do, having your basic auto attack proc when you are specced into melee is just needlessly suck.
three, make overflow its own action that boosts the damage/dc of your next impulse but calls for a scaling tough fort save, on a fail the strain of channeling that much element overwelms you and your gathered element dissipates after your next impulse, with damaging impulses scaled to account for a spammier lower dc mode and a riskier higher damage higher dc mode.

I think balancing Blasts as 2 handed weapons is a good start. What would they look like were that the case?

depends, I would say boosting melee by 2 die sizes and ranged by 1 would be, i would normally suggest both move the same, but earth ranged being d12 propulsive is... like thats a lot, however d12 forceful, d12 sweep, d10 agile finesse, and D8 agile finesse, reach all make perfect sense as 2 handed weapons


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote:

Blasts are a one handed ranged weapon. They should not look like a 2 handed melee weapon. They get a damage bonus as a melee weapon, but they provoke, so thinking of them as primarily melee will disappoint.

Making them take up two hands would be really annoying in how much it would lock them out of being able to do anything with skills (no medicine stuff, nothing with tools) and make them incredibly easy to push off of cliffs.

I don't think it is worth it.

the idea that "two handed restricts skill use" is true in all cases, that doesnt mean there should not be more 2 hand classes compared to the number of one hand classes we have


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RexAliquid wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Unicore wrote:
And the boomerang makes attacks on the second round as well.
Not counting those because look at the practicality of it. People will literally just move out of the way. They know it's coming so they'll move. In reality it's more like a, "I'm going to waste a few creatures 1st actions" so it acts as a slow to a couple creatures.
Forcing an enemy to take an action to move is very good. That is value.

It's less value when those enemies would already be moving to engage anyway.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
gesalt wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Unicore wrote:
And the boomerang makes attacks on the second round as well.
Not counting those because look at the practicality of it. People will literally just move out of the way. They know it's coming so they'll move. In reality it's more like a, "I'm going to waste a few creatures 1st actions" so it acts as a slow to a couple creatures.
Forcing an enemy to take an action to move is very good. That is value.
It's less value when those enemies would already be moving to engage anyway.

If they move towards you, they are probably getting hit again.


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Unicore wrote:

Blasts are a one handed ranged weapon. They should not look like a 2 handed melee weapon. They get a damage bonus as a melee weapon, but they provoke, so thinking of them as primarily melee will disappoint.

Making them take up two hands would be really annoying in how much it would lock them out of being able to do anything with skills (no medicine stuff, nothing with tools) and make them incredibly easy to push off of cliffs.

I don't think it is worth it.

IMO, it'd make more sense to treat them as having the two hand trait for the improved damage so that you could use another hand to gather more energy with an action to 'wield it' in 2 hands and then you could release one hand if you wished later if you needed to use that hand.


gesalt wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Unicore wrote:
And the boomerang makes attacks on the second round as well.
Not counting those because look at the practicality of it. People will literally just move out of the way. They know it's coming so they'll move. In reality it's more like a, "I'm going to waste a few creatures 1st actions" so it acts as a slow to a couple creatures.
Forcing an enemy to take an action to move is very good. That is value.
It's less value when those enemies would already be moving to engage anyway.

If they have to avoid the most direct path and go through an aura of difficult terrain, that will end up costing them more than just the one action to move.

Forcing enemies to provoke from your allies is also very good.


Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:

Attacks that make contact easier are useless if those attacks that make contact hit like a wet noodle.

A caster with 16 dex hits has as much a chance of hitting something with a long bow and dealing the same damage as a kineticist. More damage. Even, for half of the blasts!

And gets cantrips! Sure it doesn't get light armor but that's just 1 or 2 AC. Not that big of a deal and doesn't provide much protection.

Due to only getting 16 dex, a rogue has better AC at level 1 and they are generally viewed as the squishiest martials.

So they would deal infinitely less damage than a caster with a longbow and cantrips.

Caster with bow is again cherry picked. As that stops being true the moment martials gain expert proficiency before them. I agree though kineticists should be at level 5.

I like how 1 or 2 ac doesn't matter but 1 or 2 to hit does. Very telling.

And again, I don't think many are saying at this point that they don't expect them to get some more damage. Though it sounds like it will be less than what you personally would hope for.

When this situation comes usually the casters have enough level to "solve" this disadvantage with Sustainable Spells like Flaming Sphere. And -2 to Strikes is bad but not that bad the char still have a good chance to strike. Is different from what happens to Fighters where their hit is so high that usually improves their critical rate considerably.

And after level 13 when the martial are masters the Elemental casters have access to both Fiery Body and Shadow Signet improving their DPR a lot even combining 2 cantrips like Create Flame and EA.
OK this uses daily limited abilities but it isn't that much.

The problem is that even adding just a little boost to Kineticists this probably aren't enought to compensate effectiveness of a truly martial DD or the combination of Attack+Saves of the casters.

And about having a good defense and a strong and versatile offense we always have the Starlit Span Magus option the breakes everything.

In the end the Kineticist doesn't just need a little damage boost. It's need a good damage boost, a way better action economy, and way better Impulses or turn then into true Cantrips/Focus Spells.

Unicore wrote:
And the boomerang makes attacks on the second round as well.

I admit that I haven't tested yet but I don't think that will be many creatures and situations that will stay waiting the second boomerang damage them again. IMO this works more like an action damage because force the opponents in LoE to use actions moving/stepping to avoid being hited again.


Kekkres wrote:
Unicore wrote:

Blasts are a one handed ranged weapon. They should not look like a 2 handed melee weapon. They get a damage bonus as a melee weapon, but they provoke, so thinking of them as primarily melee will disappoint.

Making them take up two hands would be really annoying in how much it would lock them out of being able to do anything with skills (no medicine stuff, nothing with tools) and make them incredibly easy to push off of cliffs.

I don't think it is worth it.

the idea that "two handed restricts skill use" is true in all cases, that doesnt mean there should not be more 2 hand classes compared to the number of one hand classes we have

Unless metal is one somehow.

But really. Elemental weapon and bob's your uncle.

I don't think they should have a d10 ranged strike out the gate. Let alone d12.


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graystone wrote:
Unicore wrote:

Blasts are a one handed ranged weapon. They should not look like a 2 handed melee weapon. They get a damage bonus as a melee weapon, but they provoke, so thinking of them as primarily melee will disappoint.

Making them take up two hands would be really annoying in how much it would lock them out of being able to do anything with skills (no medicine stuff, nothing with tools) and make them incredibly easy to push off of cliffs.

I don't think it is worth it.

IMO, it'd make more sense to treat them as having the two hand trait for the improved damage so that you could use another hand to gather more energy with an action to 'wield it' in 2 hands and then you could release one hand if you wished later if you needed to use that hand.

This idea seems better. Though I wonder if it should cost another action to achieve the second hand. Because if it is still only 1 action to gather. It kinda makes the entire point of overflow not matter. I know people don't like it. I don't either. But it exists for a reason until they redesign it. Wich I wouldn't be against.


RexAliquid wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Unicore wrote:
And the boomerang makes attacks on the second round as well.
Not counting those because look at the practicality of it. People will literally just move out of the way. They know it's coming so they'll move. In reality it's more like a, "I'm going to waste a few creatures 1st actions" so it acts as a slow to a couple creatures.
Forcing an enemy to take an action to move is very good. That is value.

Value enough to break mostly actions of an enemy Kineticist! ;D (kkkk)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Unicore wrote:

Blasts are a one handed ranged weapon. They should not look like a 2 handed melee weapon. They get a damage bonus as a melee weapon, but they provoke, so thinking of them as primarily melee will disappoint.

Making them take up two hands would be really annoying in how much it would lock them out of being able to do anything with skills (no medicine stuff, nothing with tools) and make them incredibly easy to push off of cliffs.

I don't think it is worth it.

the idea that "two handed restricts skill use" is true in all cases, that doesnt mean there should not be more 2 hand classes compared to the number of one hand classes we have

Unless metal is one somehow.

But really. Elemental weapon and bob's your uncle.

I don't think they should have a d10 ranged strike out the gate. Let alone d12.

yeah d12 ranged strike without loading or some kind of restriction is WAY too much, however, in absense of an additional class damage bonus and without ways to cheese via multiclassing since its not a strike (flurry of blows for instance) i think a "raw" d10 is fair, chain blast would probobly need to be axed or reworked but i dont think balancing a class based on how nuts one optional feat can get is great design


YuriP wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Verzen wrote:

Attacks that make contact easier are useless if those attacks that make contact hit like a wet noodle.

A caster with 16 dex hits has as much a chance of hitting something with a long bow and dealing the same damage as a kineticist. More damage. Even, for half of the blasts!

And gets cantrips! Sure it doesn't get light armor but that's just 1 or 2 AC. Not that big of a deal and doesn't provide much protection.

Due to only getting 16 dex, a rogue has better AC at level 1 and they are generally viewed as the squishiest martials.

So they would deal infinitely less damage than a caster with a longbow and cantrips.

Caster with bow is again cherry picked. As that stops being true the moment martials gain expert proficiency before them. I agree though kineticists should be at level 5.

I like how 1 or 2 ac doesn't matter but 1 or 2 to hit does. Very telling.

And again, I don't think many are saying at this point that they don't expect them to get some more damage. Though it sounds like it will be less than what you personally would hope for.

When this situation comes usually the casters have enough level to "solve" this disadvantage with Sustainable Spells like Flaming Sphere. And -2 to Strikes is bad but not that bad the char still have a good chance to strike. Is different from what happens to Fighters where their hit is so high that usually improves their critical rate considerably.

And after level 13 when the martial are masters the Elemental casters have access to both Fiery Body and Shadow Signet improving their DPR a lot even combining 2 cantrips like Create Flame and EA.
OK this uses daily limited abilities but it isn't that much.

The problem is that even adding just a little boost to Kineticists this probably aren't enought to compensate effectiveness of a truly martial DD or the combination of Attack+Saves of the casters.

And about having a good defense and a strong and versatile offense we always have the Starlit...

Good is perspective based term I guess.

Manbear pretty much summed up my thoughts earlier in terms of damage adjustments. Almost to a t.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
graystone wrote:
Unicore wrote:

Blasts are a one handed ranged weapon. They should not look like a 2 handed melee weapon. They get a damage bonus as a melee weapon, but they provoke, so thinking of them as primarily melee will disappoint.

Making them take up two hands would be really annoying in how much it would lock them out of being able to do anything with skills (no medicine stuff, nothing with tools) and make them incredibly easy to push off of cliffs.

I don't think it is worth it.

IMO, it'd make more sense to treat them as having the two hand trait for the improved damage so that you could use another hand to gather more energy with an action to 'wield it' in 2 hands and then you could release one hand if you wished later if you needed to use that hand.
This idea seems better. Though I wonder if it should cost another action to achieve the second hand. Because if it is still only 1 action to gather. It kinda makes the entire point of overflow not matter. I know people don't like it. I don't either. But it exists for a reason until they redesign it. Wich I wouldn't be against.

this would work too, especially if you could just choose when you gather if you use both hands or one, having the ability to adjust between damage, utility, ranged and melee like this would make the sort of "adaptive combat" style you seem to favor way more enticing


Kekkres wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
Unicore wrote:

Blasts are a one handed ranged weapon. They should not look like a 2 handed melee weapon. They get a damage bonus as a melee weapon, but they provoke, so thinking of them as primarily melee will disappoint.

Making them take up two hands would be really annoying in how much it would lock them out of being able to do anything with skills (no medicine stuff, nothing with tools) and make them incredibly easy to push off of cliffs.

I don't think it is worth it.

the idea that "two handed restricts skill use" is true in all cases, that doesnt mean there should not be more 2 hand classes compared to the number of one hand classes we have

Unless metal is one somehow.

But really. Elemental weapon and bob's your uncle.

I don't think they should have a d10 ranged strike out the gate. Let alone d12.

yeah d12 ranged strike without loading or some kind of restriction is WAY too much, however, in absense of an additional class damage bonus and without ways to cheese via multiclassing since its not a strike (flurry of blows for instance) i think a "raw" d10 is fair, chain blast would probobly need to be axed or reworked but i dont think balancing a class based on how nuts one optional feat can get is great design

So my issue with it. Is it just kind of takes away from feat design space and building the kineticist in different ways.

At this point. I am kind of a fan of I think it was verzens idea for two subclasses. One with a caster base and the other with martial.


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RexAliquid wrote:
Forcing enemies to provoke from your allies is also very good.

I agree but it's unlikely. Because a Step is enough to get out of the way.


RexAliquid wrote:
gesalt wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
Verzen wrote:
Unicore wrote:
And the boomerang makes attacks on the second round as well.
Not counting those because look at the practicality of it. People will literally just move out of the way. They know it's coming so they'll move. In reality it's more like a, "I'm going to waste a few creatures 1st actions" so it acts as a slow to a couple creatures.
Forcing an enemy to take an action to move is very good. That is value.
It's less value when those enemies would already be moving to engage anyway.

If they have to avoid the most direct path and go through an aura of difficult terrain, that will end up costing them more than just the one action to move.

Forcing enemies to provoke from your allies is also very good.

Putting the aura set-up turn aside, moving diagonally forward towards you once costs the same movement as progression in a straight line and attacking on that diagonal isn't any different than attacking head on. At best you'll make an enemy already in melee waste an action or cost a ranged turret enemy their -10 attack.

It's not bad, but it's not good either. Especially when your aura size is negligible until level 8.

Edit: A better strategy would be to apply slippery sleet to immobilize enemies without Acrobatics and then gather air and boomerang.


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YuriP wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
Forcing enemies to provoke from your allies is also very good.
I agree but it's unlikely. Because a Step is enough to get out of the way.

Which they can’t do in an aura of difficult terrain.


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I don't think boosting the base damage of Kinetic Blast is a very good idea because it makes it too good for multiclass characters. What the class needs is an inherent damage booster like other Strikers have, and a damn good one.

It would be cool if you could two hand the element to give it a die bump though, I support that idea.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Kekkres wrote:

anyway enough arguing semantics, onto solutions,

first idea, make them a functionaly 2 handed class, we have had tons of classes that are funneled into 1 hand+free or 1 hand+ shield, or even 1 hand because 2 handed finesse and agile weapons are really hard to get. let us use both hands and bolster the base damage of blasts accordingly.
Secondly, allow melee blasts not to proc aoo, i know most creatures dont have aoo, but for the ones that do, having your basic auto attack proc when you are specced into melee is just needlessly suck.
three, make overflow its own action that boosts the damage/dc of your next impulse but calls for a scaling tough fort save, on a fail the strain of channeling that much element overwelms you and your gathered element dissipates after your next impulse, with damaging impulses scaled to account for a spammier lower dc mode and a riskier higher damage higher dc mode.

I'm sorry for my ignorance but why does a melee blast provoke and AoO?

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Dragorine wrote:
Kekkres wrote:

anyway enough arguing semantics, onto solutions,

first idea, make them a functionaly 2 handed class, we have had tons of classes that are funneled into 1 hand+free or 1 hand+ shield, or even 1 hand because 2 handed finesse and agile weapons are really hard to get. let us use both hands and bolster the base damage of blasts accordingly.
Secondly, allow melee blasts not to proc aoo, i know most creatures dont have aoo, but for the ones that do, having your basic auto attack proc when you are specced into melee is just needlessly suck.
three, make overflow its own action that boosts the damage/dc of your next impulse but calls for a scaling tough fort save, on a fail the strain of channeling that much element overwelms you and your gathered element dissipates after your next impulse, with damaging impulses scaled to account for a spammier lower dc mode and a riskier higher damage higher dc mode.

I'm sorry for my ignorance but why does a melee blast provoke and AoO?

Because it's an impulse and has the manipulate trait.

"Impulse: The primary magical actions kineticists use are
called impulses. To use an impulse action, you must have an
element gathered, which is typically done with the Gather
Element kineticist action. The element must be appropriate
to the element trait of the impulse you use; for example,
you must have water gathered to use an impulse that has
the water trait. Using an impulse requires gesturing and
focusing on your powers. The impulse trait also means the
action has the concentrate and manipulate traits unless
another ability changes this"


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Kekkres wrote:
... thats just a martial? we already have a word for that, striker is a damage focused martial

Technically, as per the commonly understood definition of striker, from D&D 4e as said before, strikers can be casters. PF2e just doesn't have any really. Closest is Psychic ig

But I agree with most people here, the kineticist should be a damage class. That should be what the class does first and foremost and better than it does anything else


AestheticDialectic wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
... thats just a martial? we already have a word for that, striker is a damage focused martial

Technically, as per the commonly understood definition of striker, from D&D 4e as said before, strikers can be casters. PF2e just doesn't have any really. Closest is Psychic ig

But I agree with most people here, the kineticist should be a damage class. That should be what the class does first and foremost and better than it does anything else

I guess we should drastically nerf/remove all those interesting support and utility feats then


RexAliquid wrote:
YuriP wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
Forcing enemies to provoke from your allies is also very good.
I agree but it's unlikely. Because a Step is enough to get out of the way.
Which they can’t do in an aura of difficult terrain.

OK one more reason to not do a Dedicated Gate :P


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Martialmasters wrote:
AestheticDialectic wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
... thats just a martial? we already have a word for that, striker is a damage focused martial

Technically, as per the commonly understood definition of striker, from D&D 4e as said before, strikers can be casters. PF2e just doesn't have any really. Closest is Psychic ig

But I agree with most people here, the kineticist should be a damage class. That should be what the class does first and foremost and better than it does anything else

I guess we should drastically nerf/remove all those interesting support and utility feats then

If need be, but right now those appear to suck in the playtest too. This class appears to have spent its power budget in such a way that it does nothing well. I'm not convinced those even need a nerf when a fair few are just mediocre versions of cantrips. I don't care if this class ends up being slightly stronger than some classes because it was allocated more for its power budget in order to properly execute the class fantasy either, but I don't even think that is necessary

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
AestheticDialectic wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
... thats just a martial? we already have a word for that, striker is a damage focused martial

Technically, as per the commonly understood definition of striker, from D&D 4e as said before, strikers can be casters. PF2e just doesn't have any really. Closest is Psychic ig

But I agree with most people here, the kineticist should be a damage class. That should be what the class does first and foremost and better than it does anything else

Point is - Striker is all about DPS. Martial was calling a "tank" a striker simply because it can "strike" enemies lol.

Sczarni

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:
AestheticDialectic wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
... thats just a martial? we already have a word for that, striker is a damage focused martial

Technically, as per the commonly understood definition of striker, from D&D 4e as said before, strikers can be casters. PF2e just doesn't have any really. Closest is Psychic ig

But I agree with most people here, the kineticist should be a damage class. That should be what the class does first and foremost and better than it does anything else

I guess we should drastically nerf/remove all those interesting support and utility feats then

Have you seen my math?

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43nxa?Action-investment-per-output&fbclid= IwAR0mI4QE1RcRyNcshku8JOwbrpYVB4KuNwuXOxpqdRncdC4ff0dZyc3g16w

As written the class is not a DPS class. It's a utility class with some DPS options? I guess? Some of the utility IS really cool, but a DPS class it is not. And people want a DPS focused kineticist.


Verzen wrote:
AestheticDialectic wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
... thats just a martial? we already have a word for that, striker is a damage focused martial

Technically, as per the commonly understood definition of striker, from D&D 4e as said before, strikers can be casters. PF2e just doesn't have any really. Closest is Psychic ig

But I agree with most people here, the kineticist should be a damage class. That should be what the class does first and foremost and better than it does anything else

Point is - Striker is all about DPS. Martial was calling a "tank" a striker simply because it can "strike" enemies lol.

Please stop this and just call as DD to avoid confusion with the Strike action.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
YuriP wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
YuriP wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
Forcing enemies to provoke from your allies is also very good.
I agree but it's unlikely. Because a Step is enough to get out of the way.
Which they can’t do in an aura of difficult terrain.
OK one more reason to not do a Dedicated Gate :P

Air's difficult terrain aura is the best one. It only effects enemies. 10ft emanation is good enough to waste an extra action getting close as long as the enemy isn't right next to the aura to begin with.

Arial boomerang really gets fun if you get reactions to move from your ancestry.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

The day paizo breaks their own tenants on class balance and makes something truly unbalanced. Just to satisfy power fantasy of the player. Is the day I ban a new class from my table.

I doubt it will happen however.

I'm surprised you think of them so poorly though. Quite a few felt quite nice to me.

If the 3 I've ran through mock scenarios my favorite has been the strength kineticist relying on aura's and support spells.


Verzen wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:
AestheticDialectic wrote:
Kekkres wrote:
... thats just a martial? we already have a word for that, striker is a damage focused martial

Technically, as per the commonly understood definition of striker, from D&D 4e as said before, strikers can be casters. PF2e just doesn't have any really. Closest is Psychic ig

But I agree with most people here, the kineticist should be a damage class. That should be what the class does first and foremost and better than it does anything else

I guess we should drastically nerf/remove all those interesting support and utility feats then

Have you seen my math?

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43nxa?Action-investment-per-output&fbclid= IwAR0mI4QE1RcRyNcshku8JOwbrpYVB4KuNwuXOxpqdRncdC4ff0dZyc3g16w

As written the class is not a DPS class. It's a utility class with some DPS options? I guess? Some of the utility IS really cool, but a DPS class it is not. And people want a DPS focused kineticist.

Currently is a weak martial class that pretends to be a DD with some utility spell-like abilities.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:

The day paizo breaks their own tenants on class balance and makes something truly unbalanced. Just to satisfy power fantasy of the player. Is the day I ban a new class from my table.

I doubt it will happen however.

I'm surprised you think of them so poorly though. Quite a few felt quite nice to me.

If the 3 I've ran through mock scenarios my favorite has been the strength kineticist relying on aura's and support spells.

The kineticist is fun in play. They have a lot of stuff to do that just feels different than other classes. I am wanting to try a dedicated earth blaster that is all STR and CON and relies on mobility primarily for defense.


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Unicore wrote:
YuriP wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
YuriP wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
Forcing enemies to provoke from your allies is also very good.
I agree but it's unlikely. Because a Step is enough to get out of the way.
Which they can’t do in an aura of difficult terrain.
OK one more reason to not do a Dedicated Gate :P

Air's difficult terrain aura is the best one. It only effects enemies. 10ft emanation is good enough to waste an extra action getting close as long as the enemy isn't right next to the aura to begin with.

Arial boomerang really gets fun if you get reactions to move from your ancestry.

Really? There's no better Impulse at level 8 than still using Arial Boomerang?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Unicore wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

The day paizo breaks their own tenants on class balance and makes something truly unbalanced. Just to satisfy power fantasy of the player. Is the day I ban a new class from my table.

I doubt it will happen however.

I'm surprised you think of them so poorly though. Quite a few felt quite nice to me.

If the 3 I've ran through mock scenarios my favorite has been the strength kineticist relying on aura's and support spells.

The kineticist is fun in play. They have a lot of stuff to do that just feels different than other classes. I am wanting to try a dedicated earth blaster that is all STR and CON and relies on mobility primarily for defense.

They are fun to play. And could use some kind of ability to increase their damage that other characters do not get access to via dedication.

I also wish for medium armor because mobility far too often isn't enough to compensate for average health and bad ac.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
dmerceless wrote:

I don't think boosting the base damage of Kinetic Blast is a very good idea because it makes it too good for multiclass characters. What the class needs is an inherent damage booster like other Strikers have, and a damn good one.

It would be cool if you could two hand the element to give it a die bump though, I support that idea.

i mean, as is kinetic blast plays VERY poorly with almost every multiclass because it is not a strike, as worded i think only inventor can really use it? barbarian technically can but they need moment of clarity to bypass concentrate. especially if we tie the increased damage to a "two hand style" either via a versitile grip or an innate property, they can all use elemental weapon or course but the only advantage there is a weird damage type on a martial weapon those classes can already use

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote:
YuriP wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
YuriP wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
Forcing enemies to provoke from your allies is also very good.
I agree but it's unlikely. Because a Step is enough to get out of the way.
Which they can’t do in an aura of difficult terrain.
OK one more reason to not do a Dedicated Gate :P

Air's difficult terrain aura is the best one. It only effects enemies. 10ft emanation is good enough to waste an extra action getting close as long as the enemy isn't right next to the aura to begin with.

Arial boomerang really gets fun if you get reactions to move from your ancestry.

If you have two turns to waste, combining incendiary aura with one of the fire auras that deal damage sounds kinda fun. Once every turn everyone surrounding you takes 2 fire damage and then 4d4 persistent fire damage lol.

Sczarni

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Martialmasters wrote:

The day paizo breaks their own tenants on class balance and makes something truly unbalanced. Just to satisfy power fantasy of the player. Is the day I ban a new class from my table.

I doubt it will happen however.

I'm surprised you think of them so poorly though. Quite a few felt quite nice to me.

If the 3 I've ran through mock scenarios my favorite has been the strength kineticist relying on aura's and support spells.

So you ban fighters from your table then?


I’m excited by the synergies and combinations possible with other party members.

Scarab Sages

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Martialmasters wrote:

The day paizo breaks their own tenants on class balance and makes something truly unbalanced. Just to satisfy power fantasy of the player. Is the day I ban a new class from my table.

I doubt it will happen however.

I'm surprised you think of them so poorly though. Quite a few felt quite nice to me.

If the 3 I've ran through mock scenarios my favorite has been the strength kineticist relying on aura's and support spells.

It's OK if the Kineticist is as strong as a Core class. That's what breaking/bending their tenets on class balance would result in.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kekkres wrote:
dmerceless wrote:

I don't think boosting the base damage of Kinetic Blast is a very good idea because it makes it too good for multiclass characters. What the class needs is an inherent damage booster like other Strikers have, and a damn good one.

It would be cool if you could two hand the element to give it a die bump though, I support that idea.

i mean, as is kinetic blast plays VERY poorly with almost every multiclass because it is not a strike, as worded i think only inventor can really use it? barbarian technically can but they need moment of clarity to bypass concentrate. especially if we tie the increased damage to a "two hand style" either via a versitile grip or an innate property, they can all use elemental weapon or course but the only advantage there is a weird damage type on a martial weapon those classes can already use

Monk stances that limit what strikes you can make can get around this with kinetic blasts while gaining a ranged option that scales off their handwraps. Can't flurry with it, but you have more than enough dead feat levels to dip in for the blast and maybe something else if you want.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
YuriP wrote:
Unicore wrote:
YuriP wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
YuriP wrote:
RexAliquid wrote:
Forcing enemies to provoke from your allies is also very good.
I agree but it's unlikely. Because a Step is enough to get out of the way.
Which they can’t do in an aura of difficult terrain.
OK one more reason to not do a Dedicated Gate :P

Air's difficult terrain aura is the best one. It only effects enemies. 10ft emanation is good enough to waste an extra action getting close as long as the enemy isn't right next to the aura to begin with.

Arial boomerang really gets fun if you get reactions to move from your ancestry.

Really? There's no better Impulse at level 8 than still using Arial Boomerang?

We have 3d12 electricity dmg

or 5d4 boomerang. So 3-36 damage (avg of 19.5 dmg) or 12.5 avg damage.

But Storm Spiral takes 4 actions while boomerang takes 3. So 4.875 for spiral vs 4.16 per action per target for boomerang. But boomerang is also cast "twice" technically as well and can be cast once per turn. Storm spiral can be cast once every OTHER turn.

Those are our only options.


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Angel Hunter D wrote:
Martialmasters wrote:

The day paizo breaks their own tenants on class balance and makes something truly unbalanced. Just to satisfy power fantasy of the player. Is the day I ban a new class from my table.

I doubt it will happen however.

I'm surprised you think of them so poorly though. Quite a few felt quite nice to me.

If the 3 I've ran through mock scenarios my favorite has been the strength kineticist relying on aura's and support spells.

It's OK if the Kineticist is as strong as a Core class. That's what breaking/bending their tenets on class balance would result in.

I would argue it can be done without breaking the system they have developed.

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