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My issue with guns in Pathfinder is not the gunslinger. It is the gun for everyone who is not a gunslinger……. it is supposed to be the easy, everyone can use it well weapon (well comparatively). That it clearly is not in PF2.
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Damn, this thread makes me want to play a gunslinger again XDYep. Give me ABP and a familiar and I'll make the damned gun magus work too.
Probably didn't happen because the releases was too close but Magus deserved a gunslinger Hibrid Studie in G&G with some reload and recharge spell focus.
I personally love the Gunslinger and how guns were done. The guns fill some cool niches I wasn't thinking of, and Gunslinger is a fun Reload-focused class.
And speaking of simple guns, I just took a closer look at the Fire Lance, and I completely missed the description about being able to wield a loaded FL as a spear. I had a couple questions regarding it:
1. When you wield a loaded FL as a spear, do you wield it in 1 hand? Or is it still 2? I know it takes an Interact action regardless to regrip it to use it either way, but I'm curious if the re-gripping also changes the amount of hands it needs?
2. If wielding a loaded FL as a spear, does it still use the proficiency of a Firearm, or is it the proficiency of a Spear? I'm not sure which way to take it, as it still is a Firearm, just wielded differently. I'd probably lean on the way of Spear just to be safe.
What do y'all think?
Never gonna take the bullet Dancer though, why would I put d4 melee strikes between short ranged d6 shots of I can either Go füll Ränge as monastic Archer or full melee both with easy d8 or at least consistent d6?Musket w/ Reinforced Stock (Finesse and Two-Hand d6).
while technically correct...that is certainly not what I would be looking for with the archetype
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I am like 99% sure that a Wizard with a gun is more usable in PF2 than it was in PF1. A PF2 Wizard can at least use it as a cash out for True Strike that doesn't require higher level slots, the PF1 Spellshot Wizard was a full on meme.
The archetype certainly suggests dual wielding. It doesn't have dual weapon reload confoundingly so muskets are the better bet until 12th level with bullet dancer reload. Picking up gunslinger dedication at some point for reloading strike is also pretty necessary with bullet dancer. Works well with bullet dancer burn after a FOB.while technically correct...that is certainly not what I would be looking for with the archetypeNever gonna take the bullet Dancer though, why would I put d4 melee strikes between short ranged d6 shots of I can either Go füll Ränge as monastic Archer or full melee both with easy d8 or at least consistent d6?Musket w/ Reinforced Stock (Finesse and Two-Hand d6).
Yeah, the archetype needs to jump through a LOT of hoops to work as one would imagine it
My issue with guns in Pathfinder is not the gunslinger. It is the gun for everyone who is not a gunslinger……. it is supposed to be the easy, everyone can use it well weapon (well comparatively). That it clearly is not in PF2.Yep guns should be the type of weapon anyone can use even a lowly wizard and still be able to hit and deal damage. But the way it was done in PF2 only Fighter and Gunslinger can really get anything out of it. Ranger can't use their signature "hunter shot". The last person you want using a gun is the wizard.
Even the "spellshot" archetype was originally a PF1 Wizard archetype that let wizard shoot spells out of guns; But a PF2 2 wizard with a gun much less shooting spells out of guns is a joke.
I remember the spellshot beeing really horrible with a high chance of the spell exploding into your face and misfire on top
shooting spells out of a gun is easy in pf2 with beast gunner or a magus with a dedication| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm currently looking over the firearms again and I must say, I am most disappointed with 2 things
No repeating martial option
The damage dice of combination weapons (sure, they save money of the runes but besides that are mostly...crummy, especially if you can't go for dex AND strength)
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My issue with guns in Pathfinder is not the gunslinger. It is the gun for everyone who is not a gunslinger……. it is supposed to be the easy, everyone can use it well weapon (well comparatively). That it clearly is not in PF2.
Yes, it's the like the level 1 Wizard as example:
A player can do a Wizard and uses a bow (via ancestry feat) as weapon and every turn can do 2 offensive moves. A Strike with the bow using it's weapon trained proficiency + Eletric Arc making this one of the most efficient combinations due the fact that in earlier levels (1-4) the casters and martials have the same base attack proficiency (except for Fighters of course).
But if you try it with a Xbow you will easily notice that this strategy fall in a bad action economy that every even turn you need to reload 1, loosing half of your potential offensive power in these even Turns.
But when we take Firearms this become even worse. For this Wizard you don't even has proficiency to such weapons even with some ancestry feat (you still can use a Druid instead although this make every thing more strange in a thematic sense but let's abstract it) but also way less efficient. An Air Repeater can be an interesting agile alternative to Hand Xbows but still have less damage than a Shortbow.
So due the mechanics you probably will see way more Wizards using Shortbows as their sidearm than using some Firearms even thematically making more sense to use them than using bows due how more difficult to have proficiency and less action economy efficient the reload 1 weapons are.
Can't believe people have their rose-tinted goggles on so hard that they're reminiscing about the halcyon days of PF1 firearms where only Gunslingers could full attack with muskets
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Can't believe people have their rose-tinted goggles on so hard that they're reminiscing about the halcyon days of PF1 firearms where only Gunslingers could full attack with musketsCompared to the rose tinted PF2 glasses where only gunslingers and fighter can actually use firearms.
Everybody CAN use firearms
and done right a number of them effectively
-Ranger with Precision Edge has a good chunk of damage on top
-Investigator knows exactly WHEN to use the firearm or rather smack a b+%&$ in a different way
-Rogues who debuff (or make use of it) have really nasty crits
-Magi have a horrible action economy but devastating output and can True Strike / Debuff themselves
-Inventor can upgrade the weapon to be more effective
-bastion champion can use a shield and agun, paladin can aoo enemies striking your allies
-Thaumaturge with weapon implement can short distance aoo
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I'm currently looking over the firearms again and I must say, I am most disappointed with 2 things
No repeating martial option
It's currently homebrew only but the session "Revolvers And World War I–Era Weapons" (G&G pg. 149) explains how the GM could adapt to have repeating weapons in many ways. And due how tight and well balance the rules and equipments are in PF2 this can easily done as I said in earlier post:
- The GM can reduce the Reload to 0 and add Repeating trait to them and to balance, improve the category of the weapon. For example the GM can turn Flintlock Pistols into Semi-automatic Pistol just adding Repeating, reducing the reload and improving it's category to martial weapon. Same can be done to martial weapons improving them to advanced weapons.
- As pointed by Michael some posts earlier the GM can also remove the fatal trait improving the weapon dice size by one to allow them to be more effective in less proficiency classes and against severe and extreme bosses where the critical rate usually is low due it's higher AC.
The main problem is that requires a non-society game and a permissive GM! :-P
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Bows are the easy weapon to use because PF2 is striving to be a high fantasy game first and foremost, not a steampunk setting or a sci-fantasy setting. Guns that are just the clearly superior weapon to use than bows would radically change the whole setting and push the lore towards nations seeking to develop firearms as quickly as possible. It was a narrative choice to make sure that firearms stayed mostly niche.
There really is advice in the Guns and gears books about changing what is baseline in your own home setting if you want guns to play a more prominent role.
In PF1 this was mostly accomplished by making firearms nearly impossible to use without making major class based choices to utilize firearms. Lots of classes can use firearms just fine in PF2 with just one general feat. It probably won't be as good as using a shortbow without building into it though. Again, this is for narrative reasons more than for the needs of balance. Just be careful overvaluing piercing damage in PF2. It feels like that must be the most resisted type of damage in the game and by mid levels, most casters can get more DPR debuffing an enemy with one action, or spending an action to aid an ally, rather casting their spell rather than casting a spell and making an attack with any weapon.
My issue with guns in Pathfinder is not the gunslinger. It is the gun for everyone who is not a gunslinger……. it is supposed to be the easy, everyone can use it well weapon (well comparatively). That it clearly is not in PF2.Yep guns should be the type of weapon anyone can use even a lowly wizard and still be able to hit and deal damage. But the way it was done in PF2 only Fighter and Gunslinger can really get anything out of it. Ranger can't use their signature "hunter shot". The last person you want using a gun is the wizard.
Even the "spellshot" archetype was originally a PF1 Wizard archetype that let wizard shoot spells out of guns; But a PF2 2 wizard with a gun much less shooting spells out of guns is a joke.
Maybe it's a joke to you. The group I ran through the beginner box had a wizard that loved posting up in the back and use his third actions to shoot and reload his gun
Can't believe people have their rose-tinted goggles on so hard that they're reminiscing about the halcyon days of PF1 firearms where only Gunslingers could full attack with musketsCompared to the rose tinted PF2 glasses where only gunslingers and fighter can actually use firearms.
The ranger is the clear best use case for the gun sword and harmona gun.
Precision ranger do have the action economy to make devastating gun sniper shots.
Gravity weapon+ hunt prey+ shoot , round 2: reload, shoot, reload.
Kinda works since precision ranger is all about that first attack.
Yeah, precision ranger makes a decent rifler.
Does feel a tiny bit bad there's no alternative to hunted shot at level 1 though.
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Yeah, precision ranger makes a decent rifler.
Does feel a tiny bit bad there's no alternative to hunted shot at level 1 though.
Gravity Weapon is at level 1 which isn't a bad option for this style, but is definitely a sort of theme.
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No one said you had to be able to use guns only once a fight, just that many characters can find themselves in situations where one ranged attack is all they are likely to need to make. Firearms can work for these characters. We also have the gunner’s bandolier as an item to help encourage players to get out of the head space that they are expected to only carry one pistol into combat.
Again, if you purpose in selecting a ranged weapon for combat is to shoot as often as possible, the game was designed to tell you that the short bow is the weapon that matches your expectations for playing that way.
The desire isn't "Shoot as often as possible" it's "Use a gun without dying from boredom of having my action economy devoured", "Only use a gun once" may as well be "Don't actually use guns".
The bandolier also doesn't resolve that at all, if anything it can intensify the issue. Because that devours your action economy an equal amount as just reloading but is incompatible with feats that can mitigate reloading
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I've been using the bandolier to spam risky reload without a care; if you misfire you just draw a new gun, spending one action instead of two. Misfires don't seem to actually happen very often, I've yet to get to my third gun in a combat. It's definitely a build worth looking into if you want to get around spending actions to reload every round.
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I can't take credit for it, I made a thread in the Advice forum a while ago asking what the best way to play a brace of pistols character was and that was suggested. Glad to report I've used it in play and can confirm it works, though.
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Why expending 1 action when you can combine it with instant backup?
It doesn't work with the bandolier. The runes are on the bandolier and sharing the runes with a weapon + drawing it is a bespoke action.
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Actually there are also some potential options even the gunslinger would be happy about.
I for one would like a handful of martial/advanced "big pistol" variants that play with 1+ handedness. The dueling pistol is awesome, but I want something dedicated for going purely with one one-handed gun. Currently there is no reason to do that, unless you are extremely poor for some reason.
The other one would be energy guns. While I would dearly love a whole in-depth system for throwing together your own starmetal weapon, I think we can do something a little less demanding by just playing on the concussive trait. Instead of bludgeoning/piercing, a new trait that combines for example fire and piercing damage for a "laser" gun.
Feels like a bit of a missed opportunity that there was no archetype about specializing in combination weapons in Guns & Gears.
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Feels like a bit of a missed opportunity that there was no archetype about specializing in combination weapons in Guns & Gears.
I'd bet good money that tons and tons of ideas were left on the cutting room floor for this book. Even more so than usual, as this is quite niche content and as such you are unlikely to get too many more opportunities to add to it.
i like them BUT
-combination weapons are very underwhelming
-the gunslinger class is a bit boring
-i miss a close range alternative for vanguards like a shotgun ore something similar. Say it havin d10 damage, fatal d12 and a short range (20 feets or so)
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I disagree about gunslinger be boring. If we think about ranged martials the Gunslinger is one of the most interesting ones in terms os actions and tactics. Usually the most rangers in other classes (fighters and rangers) are basically "shot many times as possible at more secure and effective range".
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I mean, for melee classes we understand that while your first attack is very valuable and you should always make it, your other two actions might be better served by moving or doing something else that isn't strike (demoralize, raise a shield, recall knowledge, etc.)
Like if you've played a monk who spends only 1 action on Flurry of Blows then you figure out what to do with your other 2 actions, the gunslinger can't be that hard to figure out.
My one complaint is that Running Reload feels like kind of a tax, since I would take it pretty much every time.
I mean, for melee classes we understand that while your first attack is very valuable and you should always make it, your other two actions might be better served by moving or doing something else that isn't strike (demoralize, raise a shield, recall knowledge, etc.)
Like if you've played a monk who spends only 1 action on Flurry of Blows then you figure out what to do with your other 2 actions, the gunslinger can't be that hard to figure out.
My one complaint is that Running Reload feels like kind of a tax, since I would take it pretty much every time.
With each way having their own reload, running reload can feel extraneous on some builds. As a sniper, shooting, hiding and reloading, and then sneaking is a very good 3 action round. It means the enemy has to waste at least one action (often more) to even be able to attack you and you are ready to shoot again the next round. Luckily there are so many other good activities to do once you get the feats later on, that it is only a solid round of actions, not a necessity. But runner’s reload is often less useful than hiding and reloading for the ability to target flat footed enemies with your shot.
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I don't mind firearms, though I think mostly there have been some missed opportunities with the design space:
1. No martial magazine weapons;
2. Almost no mechanical overlap with Inventor in the same book (if anyone is doing wild things like rifling a barrel or creating lever actions it's the Inventor);
3. Scatter and kickback weapons just not giving much of an up close and personal vanguard type.
Understanding that page space is always a consideration, it'd be cool to eventually get a supplement of some sort to really drive home the feeling of ceaseless tinkering and improvement that the lore tries to put out there.
I don't mind it much and it's simpler but I'm not the biggest fan of the scatter shape.
My vanguard leaps into combat, shoots someone, hits themselves in the face with their own buckshot then pushes them away?
It's not enough to be a dealbreaker but it feels a little silly sometimes.
I don't mind it much and it's simpler but I'm not the biggest fan of the scatter shape.
/agree
I don't understand why it isn't a cone with a smaller damage die...
A first-level feat that would make a Gunslinger immune to scatter damage from their own gun would be decent, I think.
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A first-level feat that would make a Gunslinger immune to scatter damage from their own gun would be decent, I think.
I'm not a fan of feats that are basicaly a QoL tax. The Vanguard should have that as an additinal feature, if anything.
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This Reddit thread that Michael Sayre (/u/ssalarn on Reddit) replied to has a lot of answers about why the Scatter area was changed from a cone to a radius. And it even cited the Backfire Mantle from Secrets of Magic as the way a Vanguard can mitigate the splash damage onto themselves.
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I dunno, sounds more like an argument against the scatter trait existing than the square AOE being a good idea. Pellets flying backwards out of your shotgun to hit you in the face just reads as complete nonsense to me.
Maybe there should have just been a different direction for shotguns. In Lancer their gimmick is that they functionally count as melee weapons for provoking AOO's and such. Another possibility could be a "meatshot" trait where they hit harder when very close to the target.
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Bursts are easy too. Like if you're trying to figure out a cone behind the enemy that requires some calculation, whereas just hitting every adjacent/within-two-squares creature is quick to adjudicate. A lot of players, especially newer ones, I've interacted with don't find cones super intuitive and if you're moving around the battlefield that means recalculating the shape pretty frequently.
That said, the mechanical fun of repositioning yourself to maximize the power of your cones and minimize friendly fire is kind of a cool gameplay loop that doesn't exist anymore, so a little bit of a shame on that front.
... I don't really like Backfire Mantle as a solution though. 45 gold per person is a pretty significant chunk of change until midgame, and the annoyance factor of pinging yourself and your allies is at its worst specifically at the time where Backfire Mantle is outside your reach.
Running Outlaws of Alkenstar, everyone got annoyed with the player who picked a scattergun either doing friendly fire or being unable to effectively attack important enemies trying to avoid it at level 1 and 2, when it wasn't really feasible to buy one backfire mantle, let alone three or four.