It's wild to me how often people on these forums will be like "Obviously Paizo is never going to to do X", "Clearly the devs hate Y", or "Why haven't we gotten Z yet?"
I believe this phenomenon is a byproduct of the way content has been created/released in second edition, especially after the first year. Caring a lot more, or almost exclusively, about themes, and very little about filling mechanical niches. While it might not be true, it's not hard to think "We've had a bajillion of [other kinds of content] already but [thing the person in question thinks is a mechanical void that needs filling] hasn't been touched even once!" and conclude that there is no interest in ever doing that.
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I think Property Rune access can do a lot for changing up the armor types. Like give some offense-oriented or thematic utility rune that only goes on Medium armor? Suddenly the choice between medium and heavy becomes more interesting than +1 vs the feat for Sentinel.
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I'm a wee bit late to the mention of it, but honestly, I'm just glad the armored skirt made it to print usefully. I wrote it with only the playtest rules to go on (these books have a pretty long lead time) and mostly aimed for "something that will let people have the pretty armored gown aesthetic while not being embarrassingly bad". I think it did well enough under the circumstances. ^_^
Speaking of armored skirts: did you also do the lore for Falayna in Knights of Lastwall?
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It's wild to me how often people on these forums will be like "Obviously Paizo is never going to to do X", "Clearly the devs hate Y", or "Why haven't we gotten Z yet?"I believe this phenomenon is a byproduct of the way content has been created/released in second edition, especially after the first year. Caring a lot more, or almost exclusively, about themes, and very little about filling mechanical niches. While it might not be true, it's not hard to think "We've had a bajillion of [other kinds of content] already but [thing the person in question thinks is a mechanical void that needs filling] hasn't been touched even once!" and conclude that there is no interest in ever doing that.
In fairness though, I think the community has had a fairly bad track record at predicting things that Paizo would definitely not do. The Sentinel Archetype, the Psychic and Gunslinger classes, among others are all things I've seen various groups of people be very sure that Paizo would never print.
I think part of what it comes down to is that PF2 is somewhat constrained by its books. That is to say, we get a rulebook every few months and that book has a very specific theme and the options released in those books have to largely conform to those themes.
So three books in a row get released without a whisper of something, it's easy to feel like Paizo doesn't care about that... but really it's more likely that that just didn't necessarily line up with the themes of the books we got.
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So talking about other kinds of armor. Last week we had a thread about Bulwark variants for the other saving throws. I dunno what happened to it, I guess it got moderated off around the corner?
But armor that provides a bonus against some kind of Fort saves, say a hazmat suit that protects against poison and disease, is certainly a possibility.
Likewise, you could have some kind of noqual thread woven through a suit of armor and especially the helmet, protecting you from mental magic (will save vs magic && mental).
Interesting design consequence of that is that it means you do have to choose which save you'll armor against and which ones are going directly on your stats; you can't have both Bulwark and Hazmat at the same time. So that provides some guardrails for balancing it.
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So talking about other kinds of armor. Last week we had a thread about Bulwark variants for the other saving throws. I dunno what happened to it, I guess it got moderated off around the corner?
But armor that provides a bonus against some kind of Fort saves, say a hazmat suit that protects against poison and disease, is certainly a possibility.
Likewise, you could have some kind of noqual thread woven through a suit of armor and especially the helmet, protecting you from mental magic (will save vs magic && mental).
Interesting design consequence of that is that it means you do have to choose which save you'll armor against and which ones are going directly on your stats; you can't have both Bulwark and Hazmat at the same time. So that provides some guardrails for balancing it.
Not to derail the thread topic with expanding on this, but the genius with the Hazmat Suit is something I didn't consider before, simply because I associate that more with science fiction than dark age fantasy. There are some caveats to it, now that I put some thought process into it, but I think they're fair:
1. It should be Medium Armor, simply because Medium Armor has the worst overall options. I can understand this may not necessarily be the case and feels arbitrary when put that way, but I imagine a typical Hazmat Suit (if one can be described as typical) is more maneuverable than Full Plate (or any Heavy Armor for that matter), but certainly less mobile compared to most any Light Armor, meaning in my personal headcanon, a Hazmat Suit as Medium Armor makes the most sense. (Sidenote nitpick: Why isn't this a damn Inventor Armor Innovation, at the very least?! There's hope for a supplement option, perhaps, maybe as a feat requiring Armor Innovation.)
2. It should be at least Uncommon, if not Rare, both because it's highly advanced technology, but also because it's probably linked to specific regions based on prevalence (such as the Mana Wastes, or some other similar commonly-radioactive area). I would probably compare this to other region rarities to determine the grade, as well as use it as a means of providing access.
3. It should be a Level 2 Armor as well, to mirror Full Plate being a Level 2 Armor. Since it does possess a trait that shores up Poisons and Diseases, a core portion of a saving throw (but not all parts of them), this makes sense from a balance standpoint. It also works out thematically, since a Harm spell or Touch of Corruption would probably not be hindered by a Hazmat Suit whatsoever.
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It's wild to me how often people on these forums will be like "Obviously Paizo is never going to to do X", "Clearly the devs hate Y", or "Why haven't we gotten Z yet?"I believe this phenomenon is a byproduct of the way content has been created/released in second edition, especially after the first year. Caring a lot more, or almost exclusively, about themes, and very little about filling mechanical niches. While it might not be true, it's not hard to think "We've had a bajillion of [other kinds of content] already but [thing the person in question thinks is a mechanical void that needs filling] hasn't been touched even once!" and conclude that there is no interest in ever doing that.In fairness though, I think the community has had a fairly bad track record at predicting things that Paizo would definitely not do. The Sentinel Archetype, the Psychic and Gunslinger classes, among others are all things I've seen various groups of people be very sure that Paizo would never print.
I think part of what it comes down to is that PF2 is somewhat constrained by its books. That is to say, we get a rulebook every few months and that book has a very specific theme and the options released in those books have to largely conform to those themes.
So three books in a row get released without a whisper of something, it's easy to feel like Paizo doesn't care about that... but really it's more likely that that just didn't necessarily line up with the themes of the books we got.
A negative consequence of the (overall positive) decision to move to fewer, larger books. Guns & Gears feels very much like the PF2 equivalent of Ultimate Equipment, but since its themed around Alkenstar and the tech/firearms that comes with it it has to be about a specific kind of non-magical equipment.
In fairness though, I think the community has had a fairly bad track record at predicting things that Paizo would definitely not do. The Sentinel Archetype, the Psychic and Gunslinger classes, among others are all things I've seen various groups of people be very sure that Paizo would never print.
I think part of what it comes down to is that PF2 is somewhat constrained by its books. That is to say, we get a rulebook every few months and that book has a very specific theme and the options released in those books have to largely conform to those themes.
So three books in a row get released without a whisper of something, it's easy to feel like Paizo doesn't care about that... but really it's more likely that that just didn't necessarily line up with the themes of the books we got.
Yeah that's what I was saying basically. One of the disadvantages of moving exclusively to themed books instead of things like the APG is that it's hard not to feel alienated when years have passed and the things you care about the most have never been chosen as themes. While the final result in 10 years might be a more organized set of content, it's harsh for the people who are following the edition as it develops and got unlucky with the intersection of the themes that were selected for books and the themes they personally care about.
my biggest issue is honestly why is padded armor just... objectively bad? Padded cloth armor was ubiquitous throughout history but in rpgs its always the worst option that no one ever uses, even in character creation
I think the answer isn't obvious: because it is treated as a balancing tool for heavy armor users getting ambushed at night. Padded armor is there so that heavy armor users still have a disadvantage but not an insurmountable one.
As to history, was padded cloth armor ubiquitous because it was effective or because it was cheap to produce? I'm legit asking.
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Speaking of armored skirts: did you also do the lore for Falayna in Knights of Lastwall?I did! Among many other sections. ^_^
Of course, your name is on the front and all! Just wanted to let you know I loved her whole write up. I had only sort of vaguely known Falayna existed prior to this book, and now she's easily one of my favorite deities.
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Of course, your name is on the front and all! Just wanted to let you know I loved her whole write up. I had only sort of vaguely known Falayna existed prior to this book, and now she's easily one of my favorite deities.Speaking of armored skirts: did you also do the lore for Falayna in Knights of Lastwall?I did! Among many other sections. ^_^
Just wanted to add my two cents and say that I love her write up too! It's very evocative. I've known and liked Falayna since the first edition, but that section really made me want to play as one of her followers, and I'm definitely planning to include a group of her followers as faction for my next campaign.
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I updated my Armor Tables by adding the new Armored Coat.
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I updated my Armor Tables by adding the new Armored Coat.
The armored coat was one of my favorites in past games, but now I can't imagine why anyone would even bother. It's strictly worse than all existing armors in 95% of situations.
I updated my Armor Tables by adding the new Armored Coat.The armored coat was one of my favorites in past games, but now I can't imagine why anyone would even bother. It's strictly worse than all existing armors in 95% of situations.
I believe I saw Luis Loza on stream wonder if the Armored Coat's AC numbers were off when previewing the items in a Know Direction preview of KoLW. Definitely seems so to me, given the rest of the Light Armors have an overall bonus of +5, where Armored Coat only allows for a base +4.
EDIT: Or maybe not? Padded is only +4, and if Armored Coat gets the overall +5, it could be considered just straight-up better than the Chain Shirt at mid-to-higher levels. Hmm...
Does the text offer any additional perks, such as being able to don and doff it quickly?
Does the text offer any additional perks, such as being able to don and doff it quickly?
Nope. The idea that it takes a minute to put a coat (even a heavy one) on or take it off is weird, though.
my biggest issue is honestly why is padded armor just... objectively bad? Padded cloth armor was ubiquitous throughout history but in rpgs its always the worst option that no one ever uses, even in character creationI think the answer isn't obvious: because it is treated as a balancing tool for heavy armor users getting ambushed at night. Padded armor is there so that heavy armor users still have a disadvantage but not an insurmountable one.
As to history, was padded cloth armor ubiquitous because it was effective or because it was cheap to produce? I'm legit asking.
I legitimatly think that the "sleeping in armor" rules are probobly the most hand waved rule in the game, ive never encountered a single group or even heard of an instance where that rule was brought up in actual play. overmore since fighters and paladins are just as proficiant in unarmored, the differance between padded and nothing is only +1 so i dont think that really amounts to much of a reason.
as to your second question well made cloth armor was fairly resistant to cutting attacks, and somewhat resistant to stabbing and crushing attacks, mail was 'better' but it was also immensely heavy and not especially cheap
my biggest issue is honestly why is padded armor just... objectively bad? Padded cloth armor was ubiquitous throughout history but in rpgs its always the worst option that no one ever uses, even in character creationI think the answer isn't obvious: because it is treated as a balancing tool for heavy armor users getting ambushed at night. Padded armor is there so that heavy armor users still have a disadvantage but not an insurmountable one.
As to history, was padded cloth armor ubiquitous because it was effective or because it was cheap to produce? I'm legit asking.
I legitimatly think that the "sleeping in armor" rules are probobly the most hand waved rule in the game, ive never encountered a single group or even heard of an instance where that rule was brought up in actual play. overmore since fighters and paladins are just as proficiant in unarmored, the differance between padded and nothing is only +1 so i dont think that really amounts to much of a reason.
as to your second question well made cloth armor was fairly resistant to cutting attacks, and somewhat resistant to stabbing and crushing attacks, mail was 'better' but it was also immensely heavy and not especially cheap
We're a group that has had this happen before. It was against Werebears, and those who didn't have their Full Plate on were hit a lot more, but some hits were indeed saved because of the Padded Armor (since they had little to no Dexterity). I will agree that it's very rare, and there are tactics and items that make this negligible, but it's most common in the lower levels, where people won't have Magic Mansions or Portable Gourds or Rope Tricks to hide in.
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the differance between padded and nothing is only +1 so i dont think that really amounts to much of a reason.
Reminder that +2 greater resilient fortification full plate going down to padded at night is still +2 greater resilient fortification padded.
mkay, but at the same time, nothing in this situation changes if you make the dex max of padded 4, so it can give a full +5 item bonus and be viable as its own thing, im not saying that players in plate mail with 18 dex don't exist or anything but i feel like making a piece of armor worthless as its own peice of equipment because players using a different peice of equipment might maybe have more than 16 dex sometimes and that would somehow be too good? Like if that's what the item is call it under armor or something.
the differance between padded and nothing is only +1 so i dont think that really amounts to much of a reason.Reminder that +2 greater resilient fortification full plate going down to padded at night is still +2 greater resilient fortification padded.
Is it though? I've asked about that before on these forums, and I recall a few people arguing that the runes are on the armor, not the pajamas; once you take the main armor off, the runes go with it.
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Is it though? I've asked about that before on these forums, and I recall a few people arguing that the runes are on the armor, not the pajamas; once you take the main armor off, the runes go with it.the differance between padded and nothing is only +1 so i dont think that really amounts to much of a reason.Reminder that +2 greater resilient fortification full plate going down to padded at night is still +2 greater resilient fortification padded.
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Thanks Michael!
I updated my Armor Tables by adding the new Armored Coat.The armored coat was one of my favorites in past games, but now I can't imagine why anyone would even bother. It's strictly worse than all existing armors in 95% of situations.
It looks cool.
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Heavy armor comes with a padded armor undercoat included in its Price, though it loses the comfort trait when worn under heavy armor. You can wear just that padded armor undercoat to sleep in, if your heavy armor is destroyed, or when otherwise not wearing the full heavy armor. This allows you to keep the armor invested and benefit from the power of any runes on the associated heavy armor, but no one else can wear your heavy armor without the padded undercoat.Is it though? I've asked about that before on these forums, and I recall a few people arguing that the runes are on the armor, not the pajamas; once you take the main armor off, the runes go with it.the differance between padded and nothing is only +1 so i dont think that really amounts to much of a reason.Reminder that +2 greater resilient fortification full plate going down to padded at night is still +2 greater resilient fortification padded.
I wish there were less of these gems hidden so far in the rules that, even after years of perusing AoN to build optimized characters, I did not know about this, and I am likely not the only one.
Front and center makes for a better user experience.
Or maybe not? Padded is only +4, and if Armored Coat gets the overall +5, it could be considered just straight-up better than the Chain Shirt at mid-to-higher levels. Hmm...
I mean, it has a higher strength requirement and weighs more than a chain shirt.
It's a downgrade from studded leather unless you can't meet studded's dex requirement, but then leather or clothing are pretty comparable unless you have a low dex too.
... I could see myself taking it on an unarmored spellcaster who took the rogue archetype at low levels (but not too low, because it costs as much as half plate), but not many other characters.
Is this from Alkenstar book 2? It feels like AP material doesn't get looked at quite as hard before it gets published...
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Heavy armor comes with a padded armor undercoat included in its Price, though it loses the comfort trait when worn under heavy armor. You can wear just that padded armor undercoat to sleep in, if your heavy armor is destroyed, or when otherwise not wearing the full heavy armor. This allows you to keep the armor invested and benefit from the power of any runes on the associated heavy armor, but no one else can wear your heavy armor without the padded undercoat.Is it though? I've asked about that before on these forums, and I recall a few people arguing that the runes are on the armor, not the pajamas; once you take the main armor off, the runes go with it.the differance between padded and nothing is only +1 so i dont think that really amounts to much of a reason.Reminder that +2 greater resilient fortification full plate going down to padded at night is still +2 greater resilient fortification padded.I wish there were less of these gems hidden so far in the rules that, even after years of perusing AoN to build optimized characters, I did not know about this, and I am likely not the only one.
Front and center makes for a better user experience.
Most people just don't ever bother to go there. In a game where armour is not much different to high Dex most people consider it part of the game abstraction, and don't both with catching players out of armour. Its been years since a GM did it to me. It breaks game balance to treat players like that.
It is good that Pathfinder has the rule, to cover PCs for the GM who likes to do such things. I was aware of it but personally never intended to use it. I don't particularily like the imagery of it. Plus the Instant Armor Spell is a pretty good alternative.
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Heavy armor comes with a padded armor undercoat included in its Price, though it loses the comfort trait when worn under heavy armor. You can wear just that padded armor undercoat to sleep in, if your heavy armor is destroyed, or when otherwise not wearing the full heavy armor. This allows you to keep the armor invested and benefit from the power of any runes on the associated heavy armor, but no one else can wear your heavy armor without the padded undercoat.
Does this mean that for the cost of 1 AC you can actually mount heavy armor runes on your padded armor without repercussions, e.g. Fortification, which would increase bulk and strength requirement of the main armor, even if you are not proficient with heavy armor or ever considered wearing one. Depending on the challenges ahead and how likely you are to being crit this may be worthwhile, especially for high end runes.
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Once you take the plates off, what is left is padded armor, which is light armor. I imagine inappropriate runes would cease functioning.
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I wish there were less of these gems hidden so far in the rules that, even after years of perusing AoN to build optimized characters, I did not know about this, and I am likely not the only one.Front and center makes for a better user experience.
Concern noted, but if you look at this in the CRB the description of full plate says it includes a suit of padded armor with a "see below" paranthetical, and straight below the full plate on the same page is padded armor which includes the description I linked. If you look it up on AoN, the full plate description says it includes a suit of padded armor and hyperlinks to the padded armor, which includes that description.
This is not meant to be snarky by the way; I'm genuinely not sure how we could make that information any easier to find and am open to hearing your thoughts, since it does seem to have been a point of confusion for some people.
You aren't wrong you are already done a good job in PF2.
But a complex games with many interconnected thing is subject to such things. This is more common in practice in traits where something have traits and these traits have subtraits (like happen to traditions) and is little hard to connect everything. Some times someone misses something.
It's not like have a better way to link it just a common "problem" when you have a complex game like PF2.
But due AoN hyperlinks the things becomes lot easier (you see the link) but in books these things sometime maybe little hardier to notice (mostly people didn't stop to check the Padded Armor for example. They just check the table, search for the best suitable armor and sometimes check the description of this armor and usually even when they see "A suit of this armor comes with an undercoat of padded armor" they tend to just ignore and don't go any further and read this armor description too.)
Same happened to gauntlets. Mostly people don't notice the you gain a pair of them when you acquire a full plate armor.
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I wish there were less of these gems hidden so far in the rules that, even after years of perusing AoN to build optimized characters, I did not know about this, and I am likely not the only one.Front and center makes for a better user experience.
Concern noted, but if you look at this in the CRB the description of full plate says it includes a suit of padded armor with a "see below" paranthetical, and straight below the full plate on the same page is padded armor which includes the description I linked. If you look it up on AoN, the full plate description says it includes a suit of padded armor and hyperlinks to the padded armor, which includes that description.
This is not meant to be snarky by the way; I'm genuinely not sure how we could make that information any easier to find and am open to hearing your thoughts, since it does seem to have been a point of confusion for some people.
Not taken at snarky at all. And YuriP has it exactly right. Even on AoN, I did not notice the links.
I think the easiest way to increase visibility for this kind of specific but very relevant info is the same as what is used for other specific and relevant info : traits.
A trait attracts attention and indicates that a more detailed reading is required.
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A trait attracts attention and indicates that a more detailed reading is required.
Hah! Try telling that to my players.
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I wish there were less of these gems hidden so far in the rules that, even after years of perusing AoN to build optimized characters, I did not know about this, and I am likely not the only one.Front and center makes for a better user experience.
Concern noted, but if you look at this in the CRB the description of full plate says it includes a suit of padded armor with a "see below" paranthetical, and straight below the full plate on the same page is padded armor which includes the description I linked. If you look it up on AoN, the full plate description says it includes a suit of padded armor and hyperlinks to the padded armor, which includes that description.
This is not meant to be snarky by the way; I'm genuinely not sure how we could make that information any easier to find and am open to hearing your thoughts, since it does seem to have been a point of confusion for some people.
Not taken at snarky at all. And YuriP has it exactly right. Even on AoN, I did not notice the links.
I think the easiest way to increase visibility for this kind of specific but very relevant info is the same as what is used for other specific and relevant info : traits.
A trait attracts attention and indicates that a more detailed reading is required.
Sadly, simply adding a trait to something has an effect similar to what is being complained about. While some people may read traits and go "Hm, Flourish, what's that?" Some others will gloss over said traits entirely. I've had this happen numerous times with fellow players who want to wombo-combo with things that have the Flourish trait, and me going "No, you can't do that because of Flourish trait," and them not even seeing it on either ability until I go to point it out in the respective entries.
It really boils down to people actually bothering to read the entirety of entries and any sub-addendums they may have (such as traits) to ensure they understand what they're getting out of a given option, not unlike a person reading a contract fully to know what it is they are contracting themselves to. If a person doesn't read the rules, they will come to a conclusion different from what the rules actually state, and will end up being disappointed.
And really, people getting into PF2, especially if they come from PF1, will know that rules are important to the game, and should at least make an effort to read said rules. This isn't 5E, where simplicity is brought to the forefront at the cost of variety and options. If people really want simplicity over options, 5E is the game for them, not PF2.
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Adding more traits is not the solution to people just skimming the rules. There is honestly no solution. Even if you have the most basic rules there will be people that will not have read the rules.
Case and point Monopoly has very simple rules. But everyone still manages to play that wrong in such a way that it has become a meme that it destroys your family and friendships.
I am not talking about people just skimming the rules. I am talking of people who dive into the rules and post on the forums and build character after character and who still missed this gem.
These people read traits.
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I like traits as a way to quickly deliver concepts personally, but I think one problem is that many traits are primarily descriptive, while a handful of them have important mechanical implications tied to them and there's no real flag to differentiate the two without checking every trait.
So I think sometimes people fall into the trap of noticing that most traits are descriptive, and then end up glossing over all the traits and not realizing one of them has additional rules to it.
In hindsight, might have been cool for PF2 to have some way to differentiate them so those traits would be more eye-catching.
Adding more traits is not the solution to people just skimming the rules. There is honestly no solution. Even if you have the most basic rules there will be people that will not have read the rules.
Case and point Monopoly has very simple rules. But everyone still manages to play that wrong in such a way that it has become a meme that it destroys your family and friendships.
I am not talking about people just skimming the rules. I am talking of people who dive into the rules and post on the forums and build character after character and who still missed this gem.
These people read traits.
I am all for more obvious marking, but, really, I am struggling to see how anyone who actually read the full plate description could miss this.
I also think trait tags reach a point of diminishing returns. Having every other item with 12 tags might get a bit tiresome.
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Adding more traits is not the solution to people just skimming the rules. There is honestly no solution. Even if you have the most basic rules there will be people that will not have read the rules.
Case and point Monopoly has very simple rules. But everyone still manages to play that wrong in such a way that it has become a meme that it destroys your family and friendships.
I am not talking about people just skimming the rules. I am talking of people who dive into the rules and post on the forums and build character after character and who still missed this gem.
These people read traits.
I am all for more obvious marking, but, really, I am struggling to see how anyone who actually read the full plate description could miss this.
I also think trait tags reach a point of diminishing returns. Having every other item with 12 tags might get a bit tiresome.
I did miss it, likely because I did not read the description of every armor and weapon but focused on the tables that give the most relevant informations in a condensed form, including traits.
And it seems I was not the only one.
Whereas I have no trouble quickly reading several tags and quickly assessing which are descriptive and which are linked to more detailed mechanics. Though I agree a way to differenciate them easily would be a boon.
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I like traits as a way to quickly deliver concepts personally, but I think one problem is that many traits are primarily descriptive, while a handful of them have important mechanical implications tied to them and there's no real flag to differentiate the two without checking every trait.
So I think sometimes people fall into the trap of noticing that most traits are descriptive, and then end up glossing over all the traits and not realizing one of them has additional rules to it.
In hindsight, might have been cool for PF2 to have some way to differentiate them so those traits would be more eye-catching.
I'm not really agree that there are "primarily descriptive" trait as if they have no mechanical use but I think that's not you wanted to say and I think that I understand what you want to say. That there are some traits with rules inside of them and other that only works as flags to other rules interact to them.
But this IMO isn't a real problem once the CRB says to seek about traits info in Glossary and Index and AoN they are hyperlinked. So I don't see any design problem here maybe only we could have a more clear warning saying "always check the traits" but the players and GMs rapidly learns that they have to do this.
The design problem that I see sometimes that can create some mistakes is the mix of description and rules in description. The full plate is a good example its easily to someone misses that "A suit of this armor comes with an undercoat of padded armor and a pair of gauntlets" is not just a general description of the armor but is about there are 2 more itens included with the armor and that the rules inside them also applies. In AoN this is more easily to notice due the hyperlinks in them helps to notice but in the CRB this can be easily overlooked.
Maybe in next books would be useful if put a clear separation between general/lore description and mechanics.
The other situation is there somethings that could be a traits but wasn't by some reason. For example the Battle Forms. Only recently in Good Spell List was pointed to me that entire second paragraph of Polymorph's trait description only applies to Battle Forms but as is not even capitalized or a trait me and probably other people don't noticed that this changes how other non-battle form polymorph spells and abilities interact with spells and items. For example I passed a good part of my gameplay experience thinking that Corrosive Body and Fiery Body disallows the cast of any other thing than their given innate spells and that they couldn't activate items and also made me allows spells that forced polymorph others to be used as spellcasting disable but when was told me that didn't work like this and that only battle forms are affect this changed everything. IMO I think this could be easily avoided if Battle Form was a trait and not a conditional rule that could be easily missed inside polymorph trait.
But this isn't a bad review of the game or something like this. Is just design points that still could be improved but in general all Paizon designers made a fantastic work in the book.
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Is this from Alkenstar book 2? It feels like AP material doesn't get looked at quite as hard before it gets published...
It's from Lost Omens Knights of Last Wall.
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I'm not really agree that there are "primarily descriptive" trait as if they have no mechanical use but I think that's not you wanted to say and I think that I understand what you want to say. That there are some traits with rules inside of them and other that only works as flags to other rules interact to them.
What I mean is that some traits have additional mechanical effects attached to them and others don't.
Take the Magus ability Arcane Cascade. It has the Concentrate, Magus, and Stance traits. The Concentrate trait, on its own, does nothing. There are abilities that interact with the Concentrate trait, and it's mechanically relevant for that reason, but essentially the whole value of the trait is the fact that it's there.
The Stance trait on the other hand has direct implications for how the ability works. Because it's a Stance, we can only use it in encounter mode, it is mutually exclusive with other stances, and we can't activate another stance in the same round we use this ability. Those are inherent properties of Stances, as outlined by the traits.
Essentially, the Concentrate trait serves primarily as a label, while the Stance trait is both a label and a container for additional rules. So they aren't going to bother clicking on the hyperlink, because that's what they're used to.
And I just see with some frequency people training themselves to think of traits as just labels and not necessarily investigating or examining them fully because of that.
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Essentially, the Concentrate trait serves primarily as a label, while the Stance trait is both a label and a container for additional rules. So they aren't going to bother clicking on the hyperlink, because that's what they're used to.
I have heard this referred to as Trait and Keyword respectively in other games...