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I'm just putting some information about the resonably efficient Monk builds. Because clearly I don't know it very well :( Trying to keep it short. These are just skeletons of builds. Have I got the basics covered? What am I missing?
The Monk is a fast flexible skirmisher. You have the best all round defences of any class. The other main feature of this class is Flurry of Blows which for a martial is in essence a free action every turn. You have a lot of options (more in Martial Artist), though it is hard to afford more than one technique. Every build I have wants two first level feats which just says take a Human with Natural Ambition. You can wield Simple weapons as a melee backup, or take Monastic Weaponry if you want more choice.
Crane Monk
A classic monk that can hold his position in the front line.
Str 14 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Handwraps of Mighty Blows, Bracers of Armor and Sling or a Crossbow
Class Feats: Level 1: Crane Stance, Ki Strike, Level 2: Stunning Fist, Level 4: Stand Still, Level 6: Crane Flutter , Level 8: Wild Winds Initiate, Level 12:Meditative Focus, Stance Savant, Level 14: Wild Winds Gust
Skills: Stealth, Acrobatics, Athletics
Stumbling Monk
A bit comic perhaps but this is probably the best monk. A good range of options. The free action Feint from level 6 is a good accuracy boost.
Str 12 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 12
Basic equipment: Handwraps of Mighty Blows, Bracers of Armor and Sling or a Crossbow
Class Feats: Level 1: Stumbling Stance, Ki Strike, Level 2: Stunning Fist, Level 4: Stand Still, Level 6: Stumbling Feint , Level 8: Wild Winds Initiate, Level 12: Meditative Focus, Stance Savant, Level 14: Wild Winds Gust
Skills: Stealth, Deception, Acrobatics, Athletics
Mountain Monk
The mountain monk has an AC bonus which means that they can typically get away with prioritising Strength over Dexterity. By the time they are having to fly they should be level 10 and have 18 Dexterity which is enough for their AC outside of Mountance Stance. So they will typically have extra damage in melee and be able to use Athletics more effectively. The downside is their primary attack is not agile so they suffer more from the Multiple Attack Penalty.
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Handwraps of Mighty Blows, Bracers of Armor and Sling or a Crossbow
Class Feats: Level 1: Mountain Stance, Ki Strike, Level 2: Stunning Fist, Level 4: Stand Still, Level 6: Mountain Stronghold, Whirling Throw, Level 8: Mixed Maneuver, Level 12: Stance Savant, Level 14: Mountain Quake
Skills: Athletics, Stealth, Acrobatics,
Archer Monk
Yes Flurry of Blows and Ki Strike work with a bow. With your speed and manoeuvrability you should be able to keep at range from your enemies.
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Handwraps of Mighty Blows, Bracers of Armor and LongBow
Class Feats: Level 1: Archer Stance, Ki Strike, Level 2: Stunning Fist, Level 4: Stand Still, Level 6: Ki Blast , Level 8: Pinning Fire, Level 12: Meditative Focus, Level 18: Triangle Shot
Skills: Stealth, Acrobatics, Medicine
Everything seems to have stunning fist. You are good to go then I'd say.
Nothing else comes close at 2nd level
One note about mountain monk is that you can start with 10 dex and boost it at 5th and 10th in time before the dex cap increases with stronghold and quake. Allowing for more constitution and/or wisdom at 1st level.
Yes. Maybe its me be paranoid about higher level adventures where you are off the ground often.
It's likely the best 2nd level feat in the game honestly.Everything seems to have stunning fist. You are good to go then I'd say.Nothing else comes close at 2nd level
I would submit Basic Lesson as competition for that title. I delayed Alchemist Dedication to level 4 because of it. As a result, at level 7 I still don't have Quick Alchemy.
I've always found mountain monk to be really weird. It's the monk that lets you dump dex but you actually can't because if you lose initiative you get killed before you can enter it, you can't fly, swim or climb because that breaks it, and it can be broken by enemies that can move you off the ground or who know enough to specifically try and break the stance. It might be ok early in that configuration where you invest in dex anyway, but at that point, you may as well run dragon stance or retrain into it once being earthbound is a liability.
Speaking of early builds, like the fighter, monks can easily go for the druid dedication and use flurry with animal form and the built in +2 status bonus and ride that train until it falls off a cliff and you transition to spells to heal or buff while you flurry.
I've always found mountain monk to be really weird. It's the monk that lets you dump dex but you actually can't because if you lose initiative you get killed before you can enter it, you can't fly, swim or climb because that breaks it, and it can be broken by enemies that can move you off the ground or who know enough to specifically try and break the stance. It might be ok early in that configuration where you invest in dex anyway, but at that point, you may as well run dragon stance or retrain into it once being earthbound is a liability.
Speaking of early builds, like the fighter, monks can easily go for the druid dedication and use flurry with animal form and the built in +2 status bonus and ride that train until it falls off a cliff and you transition to spells to heal or buff while you flurry.
Thats a build I discourage as overpowered, because an always on +2 to hit is too much a martial (broken on a Fighter). Just like +2 AC would be. There are other rules issues in there as well that people do differently. Only build I've felt the need to take a stand on so far.
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I would submit Basic Lesson as competition for that title. I delayed Alchemist Dedication to level 4 because of it. As a result, at level 7 I still don't have Quick Alchemy.It's likely the best 2nd level feat in the game honestly.Everything seems to have stunning fist. You are good to go then I'd say.Nothing else comes close at 2nd level
When I look at Basic Lesson and Stunning Fist, I really think that anything that compulsory should have been a class feature.
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Carrying a shield around helps since they changed the bonus from mountain stance from circumstance to item.One note about mountain monk is that you can start with 10 dex and boost it at 5th and 10th in time before the dex cap increases with stronghold and quake. Allowing for more constitution and/or wisdom at 1st level.Yes. Maybe its me be paranoid about higher level adventures where you are off the ground often.
Mountain stack always worked with a shield. It was a Status bonus, not a Circumstance bonus. They changed it so it wouldn't stack with the Item bonus from Drakeheart Mutagen. That was an insane combo. :)
You're missing one of the best:
Stick-y Monk
Control Monk who locks down multiple enemies and keeps them from getting anywhere near your ranged allies.
Str 18 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Bo Staff, Explorer's Clothing, Returning Shuriken
Class Feats: Level 1: Monastic Weaponry, Ki Strike, Level 2: Stunning Fist, Level 4: Stand Still, Level 6: Flurry of Maneuvers, Level 8: Tangled Forest Stance, Level 10: Prevailing Position, Level 12: Stance Savant, Level 14: Meditative Focus
Skills: Athletics (get Assurance!), rest doesn't matter.
Works best against multiple lower level enemies. Between being Stunned, Tripped, hit with Stand Still and having to roll a check to even move away from or past you, enemies will have a very hard time moving around.
Against bosses, the Stick-y Monk should probably use hit and run. Can use the Bo Staff's Parry trait to get AC to where it should be whenever he needs to face tank something.
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Bonus build:
You can also build a pretty good tank Monk with a Temple Sword and a Shield. I know you mentioned in the other thread that you don't like monks with shield but this one feels fine for me personally.
Sword and Board Monk
Probably one of the best face tank monks.
Str 18 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Temple Sword, Steel/Sturdy Shield
General Feats: Level 3: Shield Block
Class Feats: Level 1: Monastic Weaponry, Ki Strike, Level 2: Stunning Fist, Level 4: Stand Still, Level 6: Bestion Dedication, Level 8: Ironblood Stance, Level 10: Quick Shield Block, Level 12: Wholeness of Body, Level 14: Ironblood Surge
Skills: Athletics for Trips, rest doesn't matter.
Ironblood Stance/Surge plus Shield Block makes for some impressive damage resistance. Build Works better with Free Archetype beacause you could get Wholeness of Body much earlier.
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Drakeheart Mutagen is good for Monks IMO. And it stacks with Scales of the dragon from Dragon Disciple.
Scales of the Dragon will almost guaranteed be toned down in the Errata. Probably changed to an Item bonus instead of status bonus.
You're missing one of the best:
Stick-y Monk
Control Monk who locks down multiple enemies and keeps them from getting anywhere near your ranged allies.
Str 18 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Bo Staff, Explorer's Clothing, Returning Shuriken
Class Feats: Level 1: Monastic Weaponry, Ki Strike, Level 2: Stunning Fist, Level 4: Stand Still, Level 6: Flurry of Maneuvers, Level 8: Tangled Forest Stance, Level 10: Prevailing Position, Level 12: Stance Savant, Level 14: Meditative Focus
Skills: Athletics (get Assurance!), rest doesn't matter.Works best against multiple lower level enemies. Between being Stunned, Tripped, hit with Stand Still and having to roll a check to even move away from or past you, enemies will have a very hard time moving around.
Against bosses, the Stick-y Monk should probably use hit and run. Can use the Bo Staff's Parry trait to get AC to where it should be whenever he needs to face tank something.
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Bonus build:
You can also build a pretty good tank Monk with a Temple Sword and a Shield. I know you mentioned in the other thread that you don't like monks with shield but this one feels fine for me personally.
Sword and Board Monk
Probably one of the best face tank monks.
Str 18 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Temple Sword, Steel/Sturdy Shield
General Feats: Level 3: Shield Block
Class Feats: Level 1: Monastic Weaponry, Ki Strike, Level 2: Stunning Fist, Level 4: Stand Still, Level 6: Bestion Dedication, Level 8: Ironblood Stance, Level 10: Quick Shield Block, Level 12: Wholeness of Body, Level 14: Ironblood Surge
Skills: Athletics for Trips, rest doesn't matter.Ironblood Stance/Surge plus Shield Block makes for some impressive damage resistance. Build Works better with Free Archetype beacause you could get Wholeness of Body much earlier.
Thanks. I'll note both of those.
Its the unarmed plus shield I'm not keen on as a default position. Its hard to ignore as it even works for casters (once their wands and staves are empty). Sword and Shield is fine.
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Natural Ambition sure is handy for picking up a second style or a ki spell feat. But I wouldn't call it totally required, if you pick a flexible style to begin with.
Things I've had good success with:
- Wolf Style as bread and butter style. It's finesse d8 damage which is good. Works well underwater too! Wolf Drag hasn't really done well enough for me though, I don't crit often enough to enjoy it and the action cost to set it up is juuuust too slow.
- Burning Ember Style has a low damage die, but an AC bonus that stacks with a shield and runes and dex means it's a way to tank quite well. Also, fire weakness is quite common, and swarms that resist normal monk attacks usually don't resist fire. I took it as my second style with natural ambition and it's been really good as a plan B.
- As a Dex-driven monk, a javelin with a returning rune on it is really useful. You're proficient, the range is good, the damage is adequate. A fairly cheap answer to flying enemies. You might also be fast enough on the ground that you can skirmish with it, or keep some kind of difficult terrain in between you and enemies. While you can't flurry with it, not having to spend an action moving closer to enemies often comes down to the same action economy benefit.
- Stand Still is really really good, it triggers quite often, especially once you start tripping or Wolf Dragging people.
- Pay very close attention to whether a style says that the only attacks you can make are X. There isn't a clear way in the rules how to leave a stance when you want to switch to for example a ranged weapon.
- Your basic powerful fist is still a d6 agile finesse weapon, which makes it the equivalent of a martial weapon (short sword). Sometimes it makes more sense to just flurry with that than to postpone your attacks because you aren't in a stance yet.
- If your flurry is Agile and you can get into a flanking position, then even third and fourth attacks stand a decent chance of hitting.
- The spellguard shield is particularly nice, since you aren't really going to block with your shield all that much, it doesn't have to be a sturdy one. The Spellguard shield will stay good for many levels so it's good value for money.
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@Gortle,
If you aren't already aware, there are something like 80+ monk builds here: 101 Monk Builds
- Pay very close attention to whether a style says that the only attacks you can make are X. There isn't a clear way in the rules how to leave a stance when you want to switch to for example a ranged weapon.
There is the recent unofficial dev answer. While I would generally prefer official errata to a lone dev on a Youtube channel, the answer does make sense and is in line with what most of us expected.
Basically there isn't a rule for leaving a stance because it isn't something that the devs are expecting people to want to do regularly. If you do want to improvise an action for leaving a stance, it should be a 1-action.
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1) A monk in dragon stance draw a bow a shot with it.
The stance ends because the target perform an attack which wasn't "dragon tail".
And this is exactly why I said you should read the fine print carefully. Dragon Stance doesn't prohibit you from making other strikes. Also, they're kicks. So you could hold a shield in one hand, javelin in the other, and kick any enemy that comes close.
(However, it's a non-finesse non-agile style, which is not ideal. Flurry of Blows makes Agile more valuable.)
I think that numter 2 is ok because the character already paid to enter a stance ( there's no requirement to exit a stance before entering another one, as the lvl 16 feat "Master of Many Styles" confirms ).
Yes. Entering a new stance will end the previous stance.
As for nr 1 and 3, I concede it may not be clear whether it's automatic or not.
The exploit that people have pointed out is with stances that you want to have active when not your turn, but you want to not have active on your turn. If you can end a stance as a free action, then you can leave the stance at the start of your turn, then use your final action of your turn to enter the stance again. Crane Stance (as well as having higher damage attacks) is the example usually given for this.
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I think that numter 2 is ok because the character already paid to enter a stance ( there's no requirement to exit a stance before entering another one, as the lvl 16 feat "Master of Many Styles" confirms ).Yes. Entering a new stance will end the previous stance.
As for nr 1 and 3, I concede it may not be clear whether it's automatic or not.The exploit that people have pointed out is with stances that you want to have active when not your turn, but you want to not have active on your turn. If you can end a stance as a free action, then you can leave the stance at the start of your turn, then use your final action of your turn to enter the stance again. Crane Stance (as well as having higher damage attacks) is the example usually given for this.
Losing an action seems a pretty high cost for this. Enough that I don't think that is remotely an exploit
One bit of silliness I rather like the idea of, but haven't had a chance to really try out is for the grapple/maneuver-based monk. Go half-elf. Use your human (half-elf) lvl 9 to get you witch archetype. For your level 10, get Living Hair. Stack that with Clinging Shadow initiate - lets you use as many "hands" as your GM will let you claim off of Clinging Shadows, and then have your hair strikes left over for the trips.
Requires both strength and dex, which is a problem, but it's an entertaining combo, yes? I especially like the fluff you can pull out of it - you have this long, shadowy, living hair that serves as your familiar and gets further empowered by your stance. Background is some sort of Nidalese magical experiment that left you a little weird, but only really started erupting around level 8, when you reached for the darkness yourself.
you have this long, shadowy, living hair that serves as your familiar
Does your hair die in a fireball too?
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you have this long, shadowy, living hair that serves as your familiarDoes your hair die in a fireball too?
That depends on GM rulings, doesn't it?
Anyway, once I hit 10 and get living hair it doesn't die regardless. It just gets kind of sad for a while and loses much of its independence.
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I don't think you can end a "the only strikes you can make are X" stance by making an Y strike. You can't make Y strikes even if you want to. Otherwise it would have said "the only strikes you may make are X".
As a general pattern it seems to indeed be stances with passive, out of turn and defensive benefits that restrict your attacks the most. Stances that just give you a decent strike (wolf, dragon) don't care that much.
I don't think you can end a "the only strikes you can make are X" stance by making an Y strike. You can't make Y strikes even if you want to. Otherwise it would have said "the only strikes you may make are X".
Since it is listed in the requirements to maintain the stance, I have always read that as being that you are still able to make any attacks that you want - it will just end the stance if you do. Much like a Mountain Stance doesn't prevent you from jumping or casting Levitate on yourself.
1) you end your round with crane stance because of the +1 circ AC
2) you remove ( let's suppose this is how it's intended towork ) that stance as a free action at the beginning of your turn.3) what now? are you going to perform bare hands attacks which deals 1d6 like the crane stance? or using weapons with a higher die you could have easily used with the crane stance ( the stance would have been over in the moment you claimed "i strike with my kama", for example )
4) you get back crane stance at the end of your turn ( wasting 1/3 of your actions every single round. I agree with pauljathome it's a huge cost rather than an "exploit" ).
I am not entirely convinced that it is a huge balance problem either.
It becomes a bit more enticing if you have Crane Stance through a Monk archetype on a Fighter or something like that. Something that has a better attack than a 1d6 fist when not in any stance. Probably a 2-handed weapon that prevents using a shield.
... And at that point, the two feats for the Monk Dedication and Crane Stance would be about equivalent to getting the Shield cantrip. Which can often be done with a single Ancestry feat. And Shield cantrip has the added benefit that you are able to use the Shield Block reaction with it once per fight.
So ... yeah.
Since it is listed in the requirements to maintain the stance, I have always read that as being that you are still able to make any attacks that you want - it will just end the stance if you do. Much like a Mountain Stance doesn't prevent you from jumping or casting Levitate on yourself.
Hmm... I may be reading that wrong. The restriction on strikes isn't in the requirements.
So it may be more ambiguous than I originally thought.
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Since it is listed in the requirements to maintain the stance, I have always read that as being that you are still able to make any attacks that you want - it will just end the stance if you do. Much like a Mountain Stance doesn't prevent you from jumping or casting Levitate on yourself.Hmm... I may be reading that wrong. The restriction on strikes isn't in the requirements.
So it may be more ambiguous than I originally thought.
I think what you are missing is that the various stances have different wording. Some say the only Strikes you can make are, some don't, some aren't even about Strikes at all.
Clearly entering a new stance ends a stance. Its also quite reasonable for a GM to say that if you want to just end your stance it takes an action to end. Which was a point of Logan's video.
For stances which say the only Strikes you can make are I think that GMs are being reasonable to say that you just can't end the stance by making another Strike. They would have used different wording if that was an option to end the Stance. Which means you need to spend an action or enter another stance first.
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The exploit that people have pointed out is with stances that you want to have active when not your turn, but you want to not have active on your turn. If you can end a stance as a free action, then you can leave the stance at the start of your turn, then use your final action of your turn to enter the stance again. Crane Stance (as well as having higher damage attacks) is the example usually given for this.
Spending a feat and an action every round for +1 to AC is worse than just using a shield (higher AC) or buckler (no feat investment). It feels weird to call that an exploit.
Honestly without the dev answer, I would have said spending an action just to turn off a stance would clearly be too bad to be true.
Spending a feat and an action every round for +1 to AC is worse than just using a shield (higher AC) or buckler (no feat investment). It feels weird to call that an exploit.
Yeah, I don't really disagree with that sentiment either.
Honestly without the dev answer, I would have said spending an action just to turn off a stance would clearly be too bad to be true.
It does make sense though. You have to spend an action to switch from one stance to another. So it seems right that you would need an action to switch from a stance to a null stance too.
When you change to a new stance, you are getting the benefits of that new stance for the cost of the action - as is normal for using a stance. So if all you have are stances that have benefits and no drawbacks, it does seem a bit odd to have to spend an action doing nothing but losing benefits.
But then I would ask why you are wanting to drop the stance at all? Just stay in the stance until the end of the battle if there are no drawbacks.
If you are wanting to go back to a null stance, it must be because there is some benefit to not having the stance that you are currently in. And that would justify the action cost - the same as entering any other stance. You are spending an action to leave your current stance and gain the benefits of the null stance.
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So to circle back: even if you play with more or less liberal rules for dropping out of a stance, it's not great to have to constantly reactivate stances.
The point of that is, when figuring out your weapon selection and stances, look carefully if the stance would really work with the other attacks you might want. That's why I really prefer things like wolf style that allow you to more easily alternate towards a ranged weapon.
1) A monk in dragon stance draw a bow a shot with it.
The stance ends because the target perform an attack which wasn't "dragon tail".
And this is exactly why I said you should read the fine print carefully. Dragon Stance doesn't prohibit you from making other strikes. Also, they're kicks. So you could hold a shield in one hand, javelin in the other, and kick any enemy that comes close.
(However, it's a non-finesse non-agile style, which is not ideal. Flurry of Blows makes Agile more valuable.)
The backswing trait on the dragon tail makes it interesting to play around with Flurry of Blows. If you miss your first attack, it is as good as agile on your second.
The system with extra dices from striking Rune or Ki strike really favores d10 unarmed strikes like Dragon Tail stance and Sky and Heaven Stance both of which are strength based.
Why not include a couple of common strength builds?
I do have 3 builds listed with more Strength than Dex
The reason I don't like those strikes in particular is because of Flurry of Blows. A monk is always going to be making additional attacks and I consider Agile too important.
But its just a preference please make a suggestion.
- Wolf Style as bread and butter style. It's finesse d8 damage which is good. Works well underwater too! Wolf Drag hasn't really done well enough for me though, I don't crit often enough to enjoy it and the action cost to set it up is juuuust too slow.
Wolf drag is for a highly specific situation- when you have three actions to spend against an opponent.
The standard bread and butter of a trip build is trip+flurry. Agile attacks plus flat footed give you decent enough bonuses on your attacks after MAP (0[trip]/-2/-6), while it can also waste a ton of your opponents' time with stunning fist and standing up.
But that bread and butter is a 2 action combo. And you don't want use your third action to back off in a typical hit and run style, since you want to be near the enemy to kick them in the face with the Stand still feat when they try to stand up.
As such, you might find yourself temped to do another attack action. But that will be at -6 bonus after MAP.
Wolf drag specifically gives you a better option. It combines your drag with your first attack. So you get 3 attack off with 0/-2/-6, rather than 0[trip]/-2/-6/-6.