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Ok, I have to admit it. I just don't get Occult. Not the skill nor the spell list distinction. It feels artificial.
Arcane: gets it's power from mortals reshaping the world
Divine: gets it's power from deities
Primal: the magical force of nature
Occult I guess is supposed to be things that are magical. Like fey, no they're nature. Elemental? Nature as well. So I guess it is the power of WTF things of the world like not-beholders and not-mind-flayers, yes?
Someone please explain this to me.
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A Letter from Djavin Vhrest in the book Secrets of Magic goes into this a bit and I'll try to summarize some sections of what is said there:
It is a misconception that occult only deals what lies in the Other and failed experiments that conjure extradimensional horrors are due to treating occult as if it was arcane which is more methodical.
Occult is about connection; ideas, art and expression form metaphysical threads that are woven into a tapestry of culture, tradtion and community.
Occult magic is akin to tugging these threads to invoke emotions such as their greatest fears, memories of a happier time.
Occult magic represents ideals and intent, the narrative of the spell you cast. This is represented by the essences occult deal with as well, spiritual and mental.
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As mentioned above, Occult is Spiritual and Mental.
Spiritual is the intangible : souls, emotions, stories ...
Mental is reason, knowledge ...
By contrast, Divine is also Spiritual but Vital = the intangible accessed through faith.
Arcane is Mental too, but Material = using reason and knowledge to affect what is tangible (basically, the elements and the material plane).
Finally, Primal is the opposite of Occult : Material and Vital = the tangible accessed through faith.
So, Occult is about using knowledge and reason, rather than faith, to affect the intangible of souls, emotions and stories.
Also what people mentioned above.
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Well, the CRB says
The practitioners of occult traditions seek to understand the unexplainable, categorize the bizarre, and otherwise access the ephemeral in a systematic way.I've always seen occult as "the unknown", meaning that the character accepts the occult and eventually make some use of it, but still he/she is not able to properly understand it. Maybe, somehow close to the way an oracle deals with the misteries?
Kinda curious about other users explanations.
Right. Every previous edition of a d20 based game called that Arcane. So again, this feels artificial to me.
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Occult is about connection; ideas, art and expression form metaphysical threads that are woven into a tapestry of culture, tradtion and community.
Occult magic is akin to tugging these threads to invoke emotions such as their greatest fears, memories of a happier time.
Occult magic represents ideals and intent, the narrative of the spell you cast. This is represented by the essences occult deal with as well, spiritual and mental.
That's a really fine line there. From my prospective, that's like saying an African and a European Swallow are entirely different based in in their ability to transport coconuts long distances and that is the basis for why one is an animal and the other is recategorizing as something entirely new.
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Probably a better way of looking at it-if arcane magic is physics-based, occult magic isn't. It's mystical and not formulaic or precise. it's to arcane magic what the paranormal is to science.
Ok, this makes sense. Thank you.
EDIT: Thinking about this more, I'm going to need more of an explanation. In a world where ghosts, goblins, zombies, and a hundred thousand other things that we call paranormal are running around and no one bats an eye, I'm going to need an explanation as to what counts as "paranormal" here.
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So what?
So what?!? I'm the GM in the group and I have to know when I'm asking for an arcane check and an occult check. If it is purely artificial, then I don't have a good sense of when I should be asking for one skill check over the other.
All of the examples you gave are for valid reasons that can be explained in one simple sentence. Wizard has prepared spells. Sorcerers are spontaneous casters. Summoners are about bringing things in from outer planes. Magus blends martial prowess and arcane casting. Etc.
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Arcane check = Arcane magic, creatures with the following traits : Elemental, Constructs, Beast, Dragon.
Also Recall Knowledge about arcane theories; magic traditions; creatures of arcane significance (like dragons and beasts); and the Elemental, Astral, and Shadow Planes.
Occult check = Occult magic, creatures with the following traits : Aberration, Ooze, Ethereal, Astral, Spirit.
Also Recall Knowledge about ancient mysteries; obscure philosophies; creatures of occult significance (like aberrations, spirits, and oozes); and the Positive Energy, Negative Energy, Shadow, Astral, and Ethereal Planes.
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Arcane check = Arcane magic, creatures with the following traits : Elemental, Constructs, Beast, Dragon.
Also Recall Knowledge about arcane theories; magic traditions; creatures of arcane significance (like dragons and beasts); and the Elemental, Astral, and Shadow Planes.Occult check = Occult magic, creatures with the following traits : Aberration, Ooze, Ethereal, Astral, Spirit.
Also Recall Knowledge about ancient mysteries; obscure philosophies; creatures of occult significance (like aberrations, spirits, and oozes); and the Positive Energy, Negative Energy, Shadow, Astral, and Ethereal Planes.
I got that from the book. But it doesn't feel like a distinction with a reason. Why are the inner planes occult and the outer planes not? Why is a slime occult? Why is a spirit not religion? What makes a spirit different than a ghost?
This to me is one of the real WTF parts:
Recall Knowledge about ancient mysteries
Are wizards no longer the ones that study ancient mysteries? Are they not the ones that study obscure references in ancient tomes written in dead languages that they must seek out to uncover the truth? Are they no longer the keepers of the subtle arts and guardians of dangerous knowledge that would terrify most people? This is now the purview of the bards, the ones that sing and magic happens? yes?
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Arcane = Physics as studied at a prestigious university that teaches euclidean geometry
Occult = Physics as studied at an obscure occult school that teaches non-euclidean geometry
Religion = Physics as studied at a religious school where physics is what gods say it is
Nature = Physics as studied at a druid's grove by observing nature and learning that young reed bends on the wind
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Also, "Bards = singing" is a so spent stereotype that I'm staggered somebody is invoking it in 2022.
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"The practitioners of occult traditions seek to understand the unexplainable, categorize the bizarre, and otherwise access the ephemeral in a systematic way."
Or in more modern terms,
"Coalesce the vapor of human experience into a viable and logical comprehension."
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One way to consider it is if wizards went to Brakebills, then bards are all hedge witches.
Arcane and Occult magic overlap in the Mental essence. Both rely on and can affect states of mind. But where arcane magic users learn to affect the material world, those with occult leanings delve into the weird metaphysics of spirits, emotions, and the power of stories.
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Arcane check = Arcane magic, creatures with the following traits : Elemental, Constructs, Beast, Dragon.
Also Recall Knowledge about arcane theories; magic traditions; creatures of arcane significance (like dragons and beasts); and the Elemental, Astral, and Shadow Planes.Occult check = Occult magic, creatures with the following traits : Aberration, Ooze, Ethereal, Astral, Spirit.
Also Recall Knowledge about ancient mysteries; obscure philosophies; creatures of occult significance (like aberrations, spirits, and oozes); and the Positive Energy, Negative Energy, Shadow, Astral, and Ethereal Planes.I got that from the book. But it doesn't feel like a distinction with a reason. Why are the inner planes occult and the outer planes not? Why is a slime occult? Why is a spirit not religion? What makes a spirit different than a ghost?
This to me is one of the real WTF parts:
Recall Knowledge about ancient mysteriesAre wizards no longer the ones that study ancient mysteries? Are they not the ones that study obscure references in ancient tomes written in dead languages that they must seek out to uncover the truth? Are they no longer the keepers of the subtle arts and guardians of dangerous knowledge that would terrify most people? This is now the purview of the bards, the ones that sing and magic happens? yes?
Most spirits are also undead so you can use Occultism or Religion.
Slimes are Occultism because they used to be dungeoneering and the other monsters from that skill also got moved to Occultism.
As to the planes, without bothering to look to closely at them I'd guess it has to do with essences. The astral plane is tied to the mental essence which arcane and occult share, for example. The positive and negative energy planes touch spirit which Arcane doesn't truck with. (Actually I'd think it would be vital, but whatever.)
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I think part of the problem is that IRL "arcane" and "occult" are synonyms, though in PF "Arcane" and "Occult" are not. I'd say that PF Occult has clung to its original meaning of "unknown, spooky, etc." while Arcane has become somewhat not arcane, but a known system (at least in the context of planets like Golarion). Occult's tied more to woo, cosmic intuition, and harmonizing oneself with the universe's vibes/chi/etc., often through secrets, stories, and experiences. Arcane resembles computer coding re: the universe's hardware w/ more rigor and analysis. Though some can do this intuitively which blurs the line, they're still running on the same Arcane hardware as it were.
Or maybe look at it like art vs. science, even as each tries to depict the same phenomena? Or maybe a subjective/intersubjective approach to the cosmos/mysteries/etc. vs. an objective one?
Not that any analogy will work completely since we're discussing concepts several steps removed from reality. Some of these terms, i.e. Spirit, lack consensus, coherence, or clarity IRL, yet the game builds upon that wobbly (woo-bly?) foundation. Makes it kind of tough to describe in terms of rules and game mechanics.
And how the distinction relates to Sewer Oozes being Occult I have no idea! Those seems more Nature while other oozes (& aberrations too) have been created through Arcane experiments. Yet I can see how oozes in general fall into the "alien" aspect similar to Aberrations which links to Occult through Lovecraft and deep, mind-bending secrets (which again, is arcane, yet not Arcane as it's come to be in the system). The concept of Oozes being Occult also likely ties back to ectoplasm, leaking walls, and so forth. If I recall, when tackling horror, hauntings, and possessions the lines get really blurry, as you could have Divine, Arcane, or Occult variants of pretty much the same thing (and if one adds in Fey & Kami spirits, Nature can apply too).
Which is all to say, rigor may not apply here! Using the Spiritual, Mental, Material, & Vital aspects as a general template might be as much clarity as one can attain, with anybody's IRL intuitions about such vague terminology being as valid as anyone else's. I think (or feel, intuit, believe :-P) to strive for a philosophical level of rigor would detract, perhaps interfere w/ canon as well as potential narratives, and maybe step on some worldview's toes too.
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I think part of the problem is that IRL "arcane" and "occult" are synonyms, though in PF "Arcane" and "Occult" are not. I'd say that PF Occult has clung to its original meaning of "unknown, spooky, etc." while Arcane has become somewhat not arcane, but a known system (at least in the context of planets like Golarion).
I'd definitely say that that is part of the problem. The other part is that every single thing everyone is describing above was the domain of wizards and to a lesser extent cleric. Knowledge, the unknown, solving the unexplainable, etc. All that was wizards' domain. Now they handle making stuff go boom. whoopie ding. It feels like an insult to what I've always felt was the greatest class of the game. Like now wizards are told to sit in their cube and make their computer code while someone else does the solving of the wonders of the universe.
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Like now wizards are told to sit in their cube and make their computer code while someone else does the solving of the wonders of the universe.
There is just a distinction between the material wonders of the universe and the spooky mysteries of the great beyond.
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Like now wizards are told to sit in their cube and make their computer code while someone else does the solving of the wonders of the universe.There is just a distinction between the material wonders of the universe and the spooky mysteries of the great beyond.
That is EXACTLY what I am saying.
material wonders = told to sit in their cube and code
spooky mysteries of the great beyond = solving the wonders of the universe.
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If it is purely artificial
The whole game is purely artificial though.
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Like now wizards are told to sit in their cube and make their computer code while someone else does the solving of the wonders of the universe.There is just a distinction between the material wonders of the universe and the spooky mysteries of the great beyond.That is EXACTLY what I am saying.
material wonders = told to sit in their cube and code
spooky mysteries of the great beyond = solving the wonders of the universe.
Wizards were not that great at Divine (= Spiritual) things before though.
Wizards have never been the masters of all magic and of everything unknown.
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I do urge you to actually read essays in the Secrets of Magic. Not our summaries and guessworks. This book is most probably the best you can find on topic for this edition. If this won't help you, I doubt we can.
the problem
Fair. I don't own that book. I'll look into picking it up.
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Wizards were not that great at Divine (= Spiritual) things before though.
Wizards have never been the masters of all magic and of everything unknown.
Wizards (in previous editions) have always been the one core class where all knowledge-based skills are class skills. So they've always been the masters of all things known and unknown. A large enough group of wizards is going to know all there is to know (or where to find it). Ok bards as well, but wizards have int-based spells, meaning they have a sizable pool of skill points and the ability bonus to said knowledge skills is going to be higher than your average bard. Plus the wizard is more likely to bump up their int more often than the bard so they will have more knowledge skills as time goes on and the bonus to each will be higher.
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Right. Every previous edition of a d20 based game called that Arcane. So again, this feels artificial to me.Well, the CRB says
The practitioners of occult traditions seek to understand the unexplainable, categorize the bizarre, and otherwise access the ephemeral in a systematic way.I've always seen occult as "the unknown", meaning that the character accepts the occult and eventually make some use of it, but still he/she is not able to properly understand it. Maybe, somehow close to the way an oracle deals with the misteries?
Kinda curious about other users explanations.
It is artificial like everything else in the game.
The Paizo designers took the word Occult and turned it into something slightly different than Arcane within the imaginary game world. They wanted to use spell lists by type than by class this edition so they would have more freedom to make different types of characters with a simplified spell list system rather than coming up with a spell list for each class.
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Wizards (in previous editions) have always been the one core class where all knowledge-based skills are class skills. So they've always been the masters of all things known and unknown. A large enough group of wizards is going to know all there is to know (or where to find it). Ok bards as well, but wizards have int-based spells, meaning they have a sizable pool of skill points and the ability bonus to said knowledge skills is going to be higher than your average bard. Plus the wizard is more likely to bump up their int more often than the bard so they will have more knowledge skills as time goes on and the bonus to each will be higher.Wizards were not that great at Divine (= Spiritual) things before though.
Wizards have never been the masters of all magic and of everything unknown.
I mean... that's still the case in pf2. Higher int means more proficiencies (not more skill increases, but still), and Occultism is still an int based skill. I fail to see the problem here. Yes, Wizards often know more about the occult than bards (though not always), but bards are the ones that actually use that source for their magic whereas wizards draw upon the arcane.
I can understand the concept of not getting the difference (even if I think others in this thread have explained it rather well), but the appeal to wizards knowing about strange things in other editions doesn't make much sense to me as they still can.
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Wizards (in previous editions) have always been the one core class where all knowledge-based skills are class skills. So they've always been the masters of all things known and unknown. A large enough group of wizards is going to know all there is to know (or where to find it). Ok bards as well, but wizards have int-based spells, meaning they have a sizable pool of skill points and the ability bonus to said knowledge skills is going to be higher than your average bard. Plus the wizard is more likely to bump up their int more often than the bard so they will have more knowledge skills as time goes on and the bonus to each will be higher.Wizards were not that great at Divine (= Spiritual) things before though.
Wizards have never been the masters of all magic and of everything unknown.
I think you are vastly underestimating the bard there. By level 20, bardic knowledge is worth 100 skill points invested into knowledge skills, plus effectively trained in every knowledge from level 1. No wizard can begin the game trained in every knowledge skill. They have to pump a lot of resources into something the bard just gets. Any bard actually interested in knowledge skills enough to build for it is going to outclass the conclave of wizards all on their own.
I had a similar reaction to this myself before secrets of magic happened. The lore in that book is phenomenal and it satisfied my general suspicions that all good APs were going to have to have occult mysteries to them and not arcane ones.
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Arcane magic is "known" in the same way that computer programming is known: you can find all of the principles and pieces if you know where to look, everything's (technically and mostly) deterministic, and you can do simple things yourself with pretty minimal training. It's still incredibly specific and complicated gobbledygook, the boundaries of which are being pushed constantly, and which takes a ton of time and practice to make even well-understood things in consistently.
Occult magic is "known" in the same way that writing literature is known: you can find the principles and pieces if you know where to look (though they aren't as tidy and concrete), absolutely everything is subjective among both writers and readers, and you can bang simple things out with pretty minimal training. It's still incredibly intricate, intuition-based and vague work, the edges of which are being experimented with constantly, and it takes a ton of time and practice to develop the confidence and technique to do things consistently.
Both are constantly-developing fields in totally different realms of creation using entirely distinct fabrics. The great wizards of the age are experimenting with things beyond one's wildest daydreams and the most powerful bards and psychics are tapping into and modifying magic from one's deepest nightmares.
(But yeah, give Secrets of Magic a read. The writeups on magic traditions are only a two page spread each, or so, to my recollection — but they are very dense and well-written pages. Lots of other cool/cute stuff in that book, too.)
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I think part of the problem is that IRL "arcane" and "occult" are synonyms, though in PF "Arcane" and "Occult" are not. I'd say that PF Occult has clung to its original meaning of "unknown, spooky, etc." while Arcane has become somewhat not arcane, but a known system (at least in the context of planets like Golarion).I'd definitely say that that is part of the problem. The other part is that every single thing everyone is describing above was the domain of wizards and to a lesser extent cleric. Knowledge, the unknown, solving the unexplainable, etc. All that was wizards' domain. Now they handle making stuff go boom. whoopie ding. It feels like an insult to what I've always felt was the greatest class of the game. Like now wizards are told to sit in their cube and make their computer code while someone else does the solving of the wonders of the universe.
Wizards can only 'sit in their cube and make their computer code' because they have solved some of the wonders of the universe - the Arcane school of magic is a testament to how far wizards have managed to take a deterministic and scientific approach. They're not limited to making stuff go boom - they're also masters of mental magic, but their approach doesn't work against something that's fundamentally inapproachable with their method. How can you use their method of consistent observations leading to knowledge against Great Old Ones, for a clear example?
It's also worth noting that just because the Arcana skill doesn't cover all knowledge, that doesn't make wizards bad at other knowledges - even in PF1, wizards couldn't just rank knowledge (arcana) and know everything. They're naturally better at Occultism than just about any class in the game, and so can very easily know about the ancient mysteries of the universe too if you're interested. On top of that, they're very good at using Lores for more information - taking Extra Lore as a skill feat when you've got maxed-out INT will make you really knowledgeable in that topic, so your wizard can pretty easily be the foremost expert for their level in just about any topic you'd be interested in.
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The difference between Arcane and Occult is the difference between Applied Mathematics and Pure Mathematics. It's the difference between how ideas can be used to understand the world, and how ideas can be used to understand other ideas.
It's useful to think that each magical tradition has a tradition that is antipodal, and two traditions that share one essence with the other two traditions.
Arcane is antipodal to Divine, shares Mental essence with Occult and Material essence with Primal.
Occult is antipodal to Primal, shares Mental essence with Arcane, and Spiritual essence with Divine.
Primal is antipodal to Occult, shares Vital essence with Divine, and Material essence with Arcane.
Divine is antipodal to Arcane, shares Spiritual essence with Occult and Vital essence with Primal.
So it might be worth looking at, in addition to what Occult and Arcane have in common, what Occult and Divine have in common.
I must say that Occult is the one that is most identifiable with new age magical traditions that are practiced in modern times. You absolutely find stuff like "the ritual works because the ritualist believes that it works" in modern magical practice, but nothing resembling the Arcane is anywhere to be found. So I'm a little bit more puzzled about what Arcane is, beyond "it's wizard school magic, like from all the stories."
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How does the Unified Theory feat fit into all this, I wonder?
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All that was wizards' domain.
I mean, Occult is an Int based skill. Wizards are pretty good at it all things considered. It's no less their thing in PF2 than it was in PF1.
How does the Unified Theory feat fit into all this, I wonder?
So if a Wizard is a chemist and an Occult Sorcerer is a Chef.
Unified Theory is when the Wizard (or anyone invested in Arcane it's not really a Wizard exclusive thing but w/e) starts breaking down the act of cooking into the chemical processes that power it.
Or like, a mathematician using formula to try to quantify aesthetics or something.
All that was wizards' domain.I mean, Occult is an Int based skill. Wizards are pretty good at it all things considered. It's no less their thing in PF2 than it was in PF1.
How does the Unified Theory feat fit into all this, I wonder?So if a Wizard is a chemist and an Occult Sorcerer is a Chef.
Unified Theory is when the Wizard (or anyone invested in Arcane it's not really a Wizard exclusive thing but w/e) starts breaking down the act of cooking into the chemical processes that power it.
Or like, a mathematician using formula to try to quantify aesthetics or something.
I've known a few chemists who tried to cook like a chemist, and a few cooks who attempted chemistry like a cook.
It has yet to produce any viable results. (Though some reactions were most exciting!)
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Occult Magic is powered by the Jungian Collective Unconscious.
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Just out of curiosity, why's this in the rules forum? Wouldn't it make more sense in Lost Omens, or General?
Because the fundamental question at the heart of this thread is when Doni as a GM call for an Arcane check vs an Occult check. Based on statements from here I think I can rule if thumb it as:
If it's a magic check of a standard D&D game, it's Arcane.
If it's a magic check from Call of Cthulhu, it's Occult.
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It also seems like you've might be running into differences in the design paradigm of games: PF1 "the rules tell you precisely which of the 47 Knowledge skills you use for this" vs PF2 "there are 5 knowledge skills and frankly frequently it's for the GM to decide whether it's Occultism or Arcana for this particular thing"
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Just out of curiosity, why's this in the rules forum? Wouldn't it make more sense in Lost Omens, or General?Because the fundamental question at the heart of this thread is when Doni as a GM call for an Arcane check vs an Occult check. Based on statements from here I think I can rule if thumb it as:
If it's a magic check of a standard D&D game, it's Arcane.
If it's a magic check from Call of Cthulhu, it's Occult.
Actually, in many cases, if it's a magic check at all, it could be any Arcana, Nature, Occultism, or Religion. This may sound strange from thinking about Nature as 'real life wild lore' but this is not the case. Being trained in any of these four magic skills will get you a basic education in magical theory as filtered through the lens of the tradition. Each one will tell you more about the specific type of magic associated with it (so if you want to identify some piece of Divine magic, Arcana is actually the least likely skill to get a correct answer, since the answer is based on the theory of magic which related to theology and the spirits of the hereafter) but every one can be used.
If I understand correctly, a Ranger who knows a lot about the different types of animals in the wilderness also knows a lot about the fae and also the magic inherent to natural cycles and the spirits of nature. They could absolutely (in theory) identify any magic item you come across whether it's a wand of magic missile or a +1 short sword. Some magic they may have a harder time with if they never also learned about Occult magic theory (the diametric opposite of their own field) and they'll need a high-level class feat before they can identify all monsters using just Nature, but Arcana doesn't cover all of 'standard D&D magic' nor is it the only skill which covers magic.