Alas, I am returned, to request a cyclops ancestry once more, to fill the niche of a giantkin ancestry in the mold of D&D's goliaths.
Also, munavri. Any news on munavri? Shabti?
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Alas, I am returned, to request a cyclops ancestry once more, to fill the niche of a giantkin ancestry in the mold of D&D's goliaths.
Also, munavri. Any news on munavri? Shabti?
We're getting a rough goliath equivalent in Battlecry in the form of jotunborn!
We're getting a rough goliath equivalent in Battlecry in the form of jotunborn!Alas, I am returned, to request a cyclops ancestry once more, to fill the niche of a giantkin ancestry in the mold of D&D's goliaths.
Also, munavri. Any news on munavri? Shabti?
This pleases me.
I would still like cyclops for narrative reasons in the setting but the fact that the niche is being addressed at all is a net positive.
We're getting a rough goliath equivalent in Battlecry in the form of jotunborn!Alas, I am returned, to request a cyclops ancestry once more, to fill the niche of a giantkin ancestry in the mold of D&D's goliaths.
Also, munavri. Any news on munavri? Shabti?
This pleases me.
I would still like cyclops for narrative reasons in the setting but the fact that the niche is being addressed at all is a net positive.
Pretty sure that the Jotunborn will work as a chassis for regular giant heritages.
Pretty sure that the Jotunborn will work as a chassis for regular giant heritages.We're getting a rough goliath equivalent in Battlecry in the form of jotunborn!Alas, I am returned, to request a cyclops ancestry once more, to fill the niche of a giantkin ancestry in the mold of D&D's goliaths.
Also, munavri. Any news on munavri? Shabti?
This pleases me.
I would still like cyclops for narrative reasons in the setting but the fact that the niche is being addressed at all is a net positive.
I'm less interested in that, admittedly.
Granted, sure, for stone/frost/fire/etc giants, I can see the benefits of having one chassis to cover all those as heritages.
But I'd argue that cyclops specifically have been established and developed in the Lost Omens setting as distinct enough to be their own thing with their own heritages to reflect a more diverse culture. A frost giant from the Land of the Linnorm Kings isn't going to be appreciably different from a frost giant from the Tusk mountains but a cyclops from the Sodden Lands & a cyclops from Iblydos might be.
Eh, end of the day the more important thing is that the giantkin niche is being filled after a *long* time of them not wanting to do that. So I'm not going to complain *too* hard that they aren't doing it in the way I'd have personally preferred.
Having said that, we do have two separate ancestries of cow people, two separate ancestries of snake people, on top of a catch all "awakened animal" ancestry, on top of a catch all "beastkin" versatile heritage, so I don't know that redundancy is a long term barrier here.
Well, yeah, I agree, it's not gonna be a "one size fits all" ancestry, but... the basics will be established well enough to lead to other giant-esque ancestries. It's like how minotaurs led to other Large playable characters.
It's not just true giants and cyclops that need an entry, because ogres and trolls could also use some stuff. If anything, I could see general ancestry feats with the "giant" trait, meaning that any giant ancestry could access.
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It seems at least, though, that Jotunborn could be a better launching pad for finagling a cyclops! But, it's valid to want something more specific to your wants. That's what the thread is for after all! Sharing ideas of things we want to see and have always wanted to see!
I would say that the Cyclopes really do seem to be an option for players, unlike the Jotuns. Since the Cyclopes have been in the setting since the beginning, we know of at least three large populations of Cyclopes in the setting, with different cultures, traditions, etc. And in addition, the Cyclopes have their own magic, which can be implemented in the game, in the form of their natural ability to divination.
That's why I retracted my "suggestion" for Jotunborns to receive heritages based on Golarion's own giant species ^^;
On the topic I'm actually somewhat surprised that giants have been so relatively unchanged by the remaster & break with the OGL. Aside from, going by the artwork, fire giants no longer having the gimmick of "dwarf proportions, but big", they seem largely virtually unchanged from the previous status quo, aside from marsh, shadow, and rune being up at the forefront.
I would have expected either a full shift to focus on the pathfinder originals like has been done largely with demons & devils, or a massive rework as has been done with dragons.
Speaking of trolls, I'd like to see something that's evocative of the trolls of the warcraft setting. That kind of long, lanky, wiry agility. I'd divorce it from Warcraft's Afro-Caribbean characterization of them & within a Lost Omens context probably wouldn't tie them to trolls at all, but something that has that kind of visual style & energy while skirting the right side of copyright law would be fun.
And speaking of capturing a visual or aesthetic idea while skirting the right side of coypright law, I'd also like to once more ask for an aberration versatile heritage. A, you've been touched by great old ones or the Dominion of the Black in a way that nephilim or geniekin have. My personal want there would be for a "similar to but legally distinct from" mind flayers but you could do a lot of fun stuff with that all the same.
I think at this moment the obvious gaps in coverage are fey ancestries and aquatic ancestries, so those are what I'd like to see more of (possibly at the same time). For fey we have all kinds of classics. Dryad, nymph, satyr, I guess nixie, leprechaun, satyr... Maybe redcap, or satyr... Uh... Satyr...
Faun - as in a non-genderlocked satyr, is the primary thing that has me going back to the daggerheart order website and hovering over the button every few days.
When that hits I'll almost surely have to drop one night of my 2 nights of pathfinder in order to go play a Faun in something. :)
Ever since I read The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe in primary school in the 70s that's been my favorite fantasy creature. Before I even knew the genre existed.
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And speaking of capturing a visual or aesthetic idea while skirting the right side of coypright law, I'd also like to once more ask for an aberration versatile heritage. A, you've been touched by great old ones or the Dominion of the Black in a way that nephilim or geniekin have. My personal want there would be for a "similar to but legally distinct from" mind flayers but you could do a lot of fun stuff with that all the same.
I would like to once more nominate Fleshwarp as the ancestry most deserving of also getting a versatile heritage when remastered - a hybrid fleshwarp would give us a really good aberration option in the same vein as hungerseed or geniekin.
I legit do not understand that decision about Fleshwarps...
In P1E, it led to different species based on the victim's heritage, but in P2E, they became homogenous???
Then again, now they need to find another creator ancestry to replace dark elves...
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I legit do not understand that decision about Fleshwarps...
In P1E, it led to different species based on the victim's heritage, but in P2E, they became homogenous???
Then again, now they need to find another creator ancestry to replace dark elves...
I don't think they became homogeneous in PF2, I think the intended narrative is that a fleshwarp has so little in common with whatever their original ancestry's physical form was that you're functionally a completely distinct creature. I think that narrative could be sold more effectively if they had an Adopted-like effect to still get more cultural feats from their previous ancestry, and I think a less-completely-Fleshwarped versatile heritage would absolutely be appropriate as well.
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I don't think they became homogeneous in PF2, I think the intended narrative is that a fleshwarp has so little in common with whatever their original ancestry's physical form was that you're functionally a completely distinct creature. I think that narrative could be sold more effectively if they had an Adopted-like effect to still get more cultural feats from their previous ancestry, and I think a less-completely-Fleshwarped versatile heritage would absolutely be appropriate as well.
The intended narrative for the Fleshwarp ancestry is that you did in fact get mutated so hard that effectively nothing of your original traits remains, and the majority of the canonical fleshwarped NPCs we know about who weren't born that way actually have memory problems. While there's justification for Fleshwarp being a distinct ancestry, it would certainly make sense for them to also have a level one feat to grab adopted ancestry, and maybe make it easier for them to pass as their original ancestry (similar to Skeleton's one).
Then again, now they need to find another creator ancestry to replace dark elves...They already replaced drow actually. They were replaced by the ayindilar elves in Sky King's Tomb, even going so far as to say that the architecture of Zirnakaynin was of similar sort to the ayindilar's current settlements. And since they are described as "cavern elves" in the book, that means they are also playable by taking the cavern elf heritage. Player's handbook also states they should have the ability to cast darkness at will. Which sounds like it can be added to an cavern elf's kit by simply giving it a feat chain tied to the cavern elf heritage.
Well, they're drow replacements in that they're both elves who live underground (I mean, notably they are in fact just cavern elves whilst Drow were their own thing who were just related to elves). Outside that they're not really comparable in any way, being "the good guys in the darklands you go to for rare moments of rest and value freedom" instead of "the dominant evil faction of evil tyrants", thus by extension they really don't fit the "evil fleshwarpers" role all that well.
Well, they're drow replacements in that they're both elves who live underground (I mean, notably they are in fact just cavern elves whilst Drow were their own thing who were just related to elves). Outside that they're not really comparable in any way, being "the good guys in the darklands you go to for rare moments of rest and value freedom" instead of "the dominant evil faction of evil tyrants", thus by extension they really don't fit the "evil fleshwarpers" role all that well.Not necessarily. Just because the conventional cavern elves are not seen as antagonistic, does not mean that subgroups within them wouldn't be. It's a heritage, which does not behold an outlook in life. Not all cavern elves are going to be "the good guys" the same way players and gamemasters used to love to put in the occasional diaspora of good drow.
ayindilar who inhabited Zirnakaynin might have very well been fleshwarping, demon worshipping evil folk before they were either wiped out in long past (or in my personal hypothesis, were potentially affected by a forgefather's seal- or gap-like effect).
The same way that a human settlement can also house fleshwarping demon worshipping evil folk. After all, Chelaxians are associated with devil worship, we don't say all Taldane Humans have to be evil because their Chelaxian subgroup did so much damage. They are merely a type of Taldane human. Or that Yurkiti Kellids are the actual Kellids that tend to live barbaric and nomadic lives, not Kellids as a whole.
Genetics does not behold you to being evil, culture does. Cavern elves are elves that were raised (or otherwise spent hundreds of years) in the Underdark, that alone does not behold them to good or evil. But most importantly to your argument, is it does not behold them to good. Now what can behold them to being evil, is growing up in a demon-worshipping, fleshwarping city.
Either way, one thing is confirmed, and another thing is established: Ayindilar are supposed to at least have the...
Well yes, you can go and make them the people who fills the role of the people who made the fleshwarps, it's really just headcanon. There's a difference between "I am going to make up a group of evil fleshwarping Ayindilar to act as a drow equivalent" and saying that they themselves already are a drow equivalent (specifically when talking about the topic of fleshwarping) in spite of having almost no lore implying that's a thing right now. Even with Zirnakaynin, whilst it's not out there to guess it was housed by evil elves given what it was pre-remaster, all we know about it post-remaster is that it's haunted, sekmin avoid it, and was likely originally built by ayindilar (With no knowledge on the morality of said ayindilar).
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For me personally my lack of satisfaction with fleshwarps as the sole aberrant ancestry is more that their current design is more in line with, results of alchemical accidents or treatments, Dr. Frankenstien experiments, and things like mana-waste mutants. While one could stretch and reflavor some of their abilities, I'm looking for something more lovecraftian, more in the realms of "you have been touched by the old ones", than what the class offers now. And something with a tentacle attack which their current natural weapon feat doesn't give.
For me personally my lack of satisfaction with fleshwarps as the sole aberrant ancestry is more that their current design is more in line with, results of alchemical accidents or treatments, Dr. Frankenstien experiments, and things like mana-waste mutants. While one could stretch and reflavor some of their abilities, I'm looking for something more lovecraftian, more in the realms of "you have been touched by the old ones", than what the class offers now. And something with a tentacle attack which their current natural weapon feat doesn't give.
Your best hope is that Starfinder updates the inhabitants of Aucturn, the furthest planet in the Pact Worlds. Paizo did reiterated how alien races would be compatible.
For me personally my lack of satisfaction with fleshwarps as the sole aberrant ancestry is more that their current design is more in line with, results of alchemical accidents or treatments, Dr. Frankenstien experiments, and things like mana-waste mutants. While one could stretch and reflavor some of their abilities, I'm looking for something more lovecraftian, more in the realms of "you have been touched by the old ones", than what the class offers now. And something with a tentacle attack which their current natural weapon feat doesn't give.Your best hope is that Starfinder updates the inhabitants of Aucturn, the furthest planet in the Pact Worlds. Paizo did reiterated how alien races would be compatible.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm fairly well versed in Starfinder and honestly between the two I'd cite Starfinder as my favored setting so I'm aware of that spoiler(honestly to the point I wouldn't even really call that a spoiler, that's been part of Aucturn's hook since Distant Worlds).
But given that
Honestly I feel what my "best" hope would be would be a robust 'create an ancestry/heritage" system. PF1e had one, SF1e had one. One of my criticisms of 2e's approach to ancestries as a whole, stretching abilities out over the course of leveling instead of condensing into one stat block, is - one it reinforces my biggest complaint about 2e which is that it prioritizes balance over power fantasy, which I get is a feature, not a bug, for everyone else - but two that it necessitates a lot more pages being dedicated to any given ancestry in a book, and doesn't lend itself well to the easy modularity I liked in earlier editions. But that's neither here nor there.