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You mean words are much easier to speak than actions are to take? So what Paizo says carries less weight than what it does?Never ever change. <3
I'm not the same TOZ that signed onto this forum some 14 years ago. I'm not even the same as I was 7 years ago. I doubt I'll be the same even next year.
What I will be is a sarcastic troll. That part is pretty constant.
Edit: Whoop, Liz got caught on the end of last page, let me bring that forward.
Some additional commentary from me regarding a few points in this thread.
Relying upon any one person to "fix" or "save" a problem is inherently problematic. Many of the concerns being raised are endemic to not only Paizo, but the industry as a whole. It's not a task for any one person to fix, because it's not a problem caused by any one person. This is a team effort.
And since folks are concerned with cost of a book to consumers, we're gonna do a bit of math. Now, most of these print numbers are hypothetical, because I don't have access to that information anymore, but they are based on past releases.
Let's say Paizo has 100 employees (again, not sure, but let's be generous), and wages increase by $5000 across the board, so $500k a year more in labor. In our hypothetical print run for a hardcover book, let's say it's 20,000, with the MSRP being $39.99. In order for that labor cost to be absorbed, the cost would have to go up by $25.
This hypothetical model only accounts for a single product, not the multiples that Paizo produces in a year. That's simply not the scale Paizo works at. Let's expand our hypothetical print run to the following:
- 4 hardcovers a year, 20k print run each
- 18 APs and adventures a year, 5k each
- 24 PDFs, 2k each
Again, Paizo makes more products than this in a year, but the number of units in this hypothetical print run is 188,000. To absorb that wage increase each unit would have to have an MSRP increase of...almost $3. If I subscribed to every item in this hypothetical print run, it would cost me an extra $146 a year (or about 13 typical Starbucks orders for me).
If the difference between employees getting better wages is my latte, pastry, and sandwich treat, then that is a price I am willing and happy to pay.
At the end of the day, for the consumers, this is a hobby, a luxury. The entertainment you enjoy is created by the hard work of the folks in it. That doesn't mean that those working in the industry should not get a fair compensation for their labor.
And as a preemptive commentary about company profit margins and cost of goods and blah blah blah. No s@&@, we know, that's capitalism. Having the power to make decisions in favor of your employees, even at the cost of profit, is also a choice.
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He is truly incorrigible.
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One should try and do both as a company imo. Make decisions in favor of employees while also being profitable neither of the two is mutually exclusive to the equation. A company needs both happy employees and a constant source of revenue to pay the bills.
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Liz hits the nail on the head. (Of course she would - she’s worked there.)
The cost of labor is a relatively small percentage of the cost of a finished book. Print costs, handling, overhead, etc. are where the lion’s share of that cost goes.
Raising salaries by 25% would absolutely not require raising retail prices by 25%. It is far less than that.
If there is one person that will never stagnate under the yoke of Law, it is TOZ.
Best Sylverster Stallone voice " I am the TOZ'.
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Having the power to make decisions in favor of your employees, even at the cost of profit, is also a choice.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been under the impression that the margin for profit in this industry is rather slim, so I wonder how much that is a real choice for Paizo to make.
This said, thank you for that calculation. As someone who commented on this, yes, 3$ per product seems doable (and isn't the number of units in your example 218k which would lower it even more?), even when to me it wouldn't mean to pass on a Starbuck order - I'd never spend money on their stuff anyways - but on some food orders while at work.
Also, you're only talking about print runs, which probably means that you could lower that increase per product even further if you count in pdfs.
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OTOH, while it might not seem so at first glance, there are benefits to raising salaries that are often overlooked by so-called rational capitalists. Attracting and retaining good staff is very important. The costs are harder to measure, but employee turnover is expensive, even for "unskilled" labor, much less creative talent.
Even for folks within the industry, the learning curve onboarding is very steep, and that's just for the creative side. Operations is a whole different ball of cat hair-filled wax.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been under the impression that the margin for profit in this industry is rather slim, so I wonder how much that is a real choice for Paizo to make.
Not our decision to determine.
As someone who commented on this, yes, 3$ per product seems doable (and isn't the number of units in your example 218k which would lower it even more?)
Probably. I'm running on about four hours of sleep right now.
Also, you're only talking about print runs, which probably means that you could lower that increase per product even further if you count in pdfs.
Yep.
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There were other non-salary suggestions I've seen made, such as allowing everyone to work from home, reducing the impact of cost of living. There are places in between 'eat the rich' and 'you should be lucky to work here'.
You should be lucky to eat the rich here?
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There were other non-salary suggestions I've seen made, such as allowing everyone to work from home, reducing the impact of cost of living. There are places in between 'eat the rich' and 'you should be lucky to work here'.You should be lucky to eat the rich here?
I feel like we could all get behind that kind of idea.
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There were other non-salary suggestions I've seen made, such as allowing everyone to work from home, reducing the impact of cost of living. There are places in between 'eat the rich' and 'you should be lucky to work here'.You should be lucky to eat the rich here?
I know one person who agrees.
I think people who want a price increase should petion a SUPPORTEMPLEYEES "promo" code for 10% extra provided the extra income goes to the employees or create a GoFundMe for the employees directly.
Humbly,
Yawar
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I think people who want a price increase should petion a SUPPORTEMPLEYEES "promo" code for 10% extra provided the extra income goes to the employees or create a GoFundMe for the employees directly.
Humbly,
Yawar
Hey.
Buddy.
Listen.
If you aren't willing to spend ten extra bucks to support the people who create your LUXURY hobby product? That's fine. Pathfinder is already an incredibly generous game. They post all of their rules online for free. You could play the game without ever spending a dime.
But it's insulting to even imply that paying employees a living wage is in any way comparable to charity. They work their asses off and they deserve to get paid for it. Anything less than that is unacceptable. If increasing the costs of the books is how they earn that wage, then we should all be in favor of it.
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Let's say Paizo has 100 employees (again, not sure, but let's be generous), and wages increase by $5000 across the board, so $500k a year more in labor. In our hypothetical print run for a hardcover book, let's say it's 20,000, with the MSRP being $39.99. In order for that labor cost to be absorbed, the cost would have to go up by $25.
This hypothetical model only accounts for a single product, not the multiples that Paizo produces in a year. That's simply not the scale Paizo works at. Let's expand our hypothetical print run to the following:
- 4 hardcovers a year, 20k print run each
- 18 APs and adventures a year, 5k each
- 24 PDFs, 2k each
Again, Paizo makes more products than this in a year, but the number of units in this hypothetical print run is 188,000. To absorb that wage increase each unit would have to have an MSRP increase of...almost $3. If I subscribed to every item in this hypothetical print run, it would cost me an extra $146 a year (or about 13 typical Starbucks orders for me).
So I did this assuming every year will be like 2020 for Pathfinder and that Starfinder will maintain 50% output (and assume 50% sales) because data is fun.
Does not account for PFS, SFS, accessories, etc., which would increase things by a bit more.
Six hardcover Pathfinder books @ 20k ea = 120000
Twelve Pathfinder APs @ 5k ea = 60000
Two adventures @ 5k ea = 10000
PDFs for 20 Pathfinder publications @ 2k ea = 40000
Three hardcover Starfinder books @ 10k ea = 30000
Six Starfinder APs @ 2.5k ea = 15000
One Starfinder adventure @ 2.5k ea = 2500
PDFs for 10 Starfinder publications @ 1k ea = 10000
Total output: 287,500
Raising the cost of every product by $5 would be an increase in revenue of $1,437,500. We'll call it $1,500,000 after accessories and Society stuff.
Paizo currently has roughly 80 employees. Increasing the cost of all products by $5 would allow Paizo to increase total compensation by $18,750, or about $9/hr.
Paizo does have to pay some in payroll taxes on this, roughly 10%, so we could increase employee compensation by $17,000 instead to cover that, which would come out to roughly $8.17/hr increase.
Maybe you don't want to increase PDFs as much, say maybe only a $2 rase for PDFs. APs would be $30 for print and $20 for PDF then, for example, which seems okay. That would increase revenue by $1,287,500. Again, we'll round up to $1,300,000 for accessories and Society. Doing the payroll tax dance again, that would be a raise of just under $15,000 (just under $7.21/hr raise).
We can also do this the other way. IIRC, the last time I saw a CSR job posting, the posted wage was in the neighborhood of $16/hr (little more or a little less depending one experience etc). To get a 1 bedroom apartment in Redmond and the surrounding areas by yourself, you're looking at needing about $22/hr to get in the door (as most apartments want your pre-tax monthly income to be at least 2.5x rent). That's a $6/hr raise, or $12,480/yr. For you to get that post-payroll tax, Paizo would need to budget about $13,867 per employee.
If we take that $6/hr raise (plus payroll tax) and apply it to every one of its approx. 80 employees, you'd need an increase in revenue of $1,109,360. That's a $3.86 / item increase.
Now, I like $5 for books and $2 for PDFs coupled with the $6/hr raise, as Paizo can then bank the ~$400,000 difference to either hire a bit more workforce or just put it in a Vanguard account or something to cover COLA and seniority raises next time those come up.
If I bought all the books, I would pay $150 more, which roughly 0.5% of the US median income. If I bought all the PDFs instead, I would pay $60 more, which is roughly 0.2% of the US median income.
I think that's probably fine.
I do wonder if the painful spike in shipping prices makes this idea slightly less tenable. I think it's a smart move but if their international shipping is getting absolutely demolished because of price increases they can't control... What will happen when they bolt on additional price increases that they can't pin on the pandemic?
I'm all for it, though. My fun money goes to RPG books almost exclusively these days, and part of that is because I like supporting creators directly. I could spare a bit more (albeit I need to drop both adventure lines in January).
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I've taken a few days off of constantly posting. Will likely pick back up tomorrow. I wanted to chime in and say that there is great dialogue amongst the fans here.
I see virtually none from anyone that could affect change.
I understand this is the weekend. I also understand that it is naive to assume these threads aren't being monitored.
When will the powers that be arrive? The customer think tank is great, even better with former employees chiming in. No sarcasm and much gratitude for that.
Actions are needed, clear detailed plans and actions. Sara Marie is valued greatly by our community. Paizo claims that they treat their employees like family.
With the numbers I am reading I am worried about the Paizo Family and I am invested in understanding how the leadership intends to correct course.
We are seeing a lot of posts about compensation. However the issues brought up by former transgender employees needs a big bright spot light shined on it. The issues brought up about working conditions needs a big bright spot light shined on it.
The statements of Mona and Buhlman help to shine a flashlight, but the statement from Alvarez fails to meet bare minimum requirements. Looking forward to next week now that GenCon is passed and what the leadership has to say about the road map ahead.
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I've taken a few days off of constantly posting. Will likely pick back up tomorrow. I wanted to chime in and say that there is great dialogue amongst the fans here.
I see virtually none from anyone that could affect change.
I understand this is the weekend. I also understand that it is naive to assume these threads aren't being monitored.
When will the powers that be arrive? The customer think tank is great, even better with former employees chiming in. No sarcasm and much gratitude for that.
Actions are needed, clear detailed plans and actions. Sara Marie is valued greatly by our community. Paizo claims that the treat their employees like family.
With the numbers I am reading I am worried about the Paizo Family and I am invested in understanding how the leadership intends to correct course.
We are seeing a lot of posts about compensation. However the issues brought up by former trans employees needs a big bright spot light shined on it. The issues brought up about working conditions needs a big bright spot light shined on it.
The statements of Mona and Buhlman help to shine a flashlight, but the statement from Alvarez fails to meet bare minimum requirements. Looking forward to next week now that GenCon is passed and what the leadership has to say about the road map ahead.
Responding mostly because I felt like hitting the +1 wasn't sufficiently aggressive agreement.
Sufficient compensation is comparatively "easy" for an outsider to look at and think about, and it makes life livable in a practical, physical sense. Workplace conditions and treatment outside of compensation, on the other hand, can easily make life not worth living no matter how big your paycheck is.
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It’s probably at the point where further contribution on my part is unhelpful. I am in the “wait and see” camp – I have cancelled my subscriptions and orders and directed those funds to staff and ex-staff patreons plus ko-fis and other such avenues. Now I'm watching; hopeful that Paizo will make the internal changes necessary to foster better working conditions. I’ve been an ardent supporter of the company for many years and hope that I will be able to continue that for many more.
Having said that, I don’t believe it’s a customer’s place to set out ultimatums or try to dictate what the changes should be. I am concerned about pay rates, working conditions, the discrimination experienced by past employees, particularly transgender staffmembers and freelancers. But the work that needs to be done to repair that culture and the specific remedies are for staff and management to work through.
I can appreciate it is going to take time – but I hope the process is beginning and a plan is forming. The opacity that has previously hidden the problems is now also going to hide the solutions, unfortunately. As customers it is going to be difficult to see what is genuine change and what is lip service. That will be a communications challenge for the company that has lost a serious amount of trust with the departure of Sara Marie, Lu and Diego and the revelations of prior staff’s distress and trauma.
The company has a difficult time ahead. I hope you can work through all the issues in a way that leaves the remaining staff supported, protected and adequately compensated. The buildings, the computers, the IP and all the licensing agreements in the world pale into insignificance next to the staff – that is the single biggest, most valuable asset of Paizo and it sounds like there is some significant investment required to nurture them. Whether that be financial or otherwise, I’m sure they will be full of ideas and energy – they always are.
First of all, as someone who makes a decent wage in Peru because the work I do was outsourced from the US to Latin America, bless your heart.
Second, I already pay a subscrition at full price plus the costly shipping from Paizo (compared to Amazon's) and goes from loops and hoops to avoid to avoid overcharges from local customs (something that doesn't happened with Amazon either) willingly.
Third, I do all of that because I appreciate Paizo's work, but if somebody else tells me that they are entitled to single cent of my money then I have some issues.
Finally, sassing a costumer is hardly ever a good way to do any business.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Third, I do all of that because I appreciate Paizo's work, but if somebody else tells me that they are entitled to single cent of my money then I have some issues.
Well, which is it? Do you appreciate and value the work that these artists do, or do you feel that these artists are not entitled to a single cent?
Those are contradicting viewpoints. Artists are incredibly undercompensated, and it seems like you don't value doing something about that.
Also, you're not really acting humble, by my understanding of the word.
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Third, I do all of that because I appreciate Paizo's work, but if somebody else tells me that they are entitled to single cent of my money then I have some issues.Well, which is it? Do you appreciate and value the work that these artists do, or do you feel that these artists are not entitled to a single cent?
Those are contradicting viewpoints. Artists are incredibly undercompensated, and it seems like you don't value doing something about that.
Also, you're not really acting humble, by my understanding of the word.
Not at all, I have already payed for the product to which they sold their labor for. If they want to open a patreon for more of their art work or anything else I might be inclined to collaborate with my money. However, I do not have to, ergo, their are not entitled to it.
Humbly,
Yawar
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Third, I do all of that because I appreciate Paizo's work, but if somebody else tells me that they are entitled to single cent of my money then I have some issues.Well, which is it? Do you appreciate and value the work that these artists do, or do you feel that these artists are not entitled to a single cent?
Those are contradicting viewpoints. Artists are incredibly undercompensated, and it seems like you don't value doing something about that.
Also, you're not really acting humble, by my understanding of the word.
Not at all, I have already payed for the product to which they sold their labor for. If they want to open a patreon for more of their art work or anything else I might be inclined to collaborate with my money. However, I do not have to, ergo, their are not entitled to it.
Humbly,
Yawar
And if they raise the prices, then what?
Again, this is a luxury industry, not a necessity, and you can get all the rules for free.
We can push for the people making these products to be paid more, just like in commissioning art, but you have no right to demand they be paid less, and asking for stagnation of wages is just that.
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Yeah, finding the balance with price and sales will be critical. I think many people (in particular Americans from my experience….sorry) don’t seem to appreciate the fact that the median American/western European income is sky high by global standards.The disposable income of Americans is very high in general, and the amount of effort that same amount of money might take for other people is something you might want to consider.
Increasing prices may effectively put items out of reach for anyone outside of US, Canada and the rich parts of Europe. Given this is an international hobby that would be a pity.
Now I am lucky enough myself, but also appreciate that not everyone can afford price increases and if you increase prices by 10% but decrease sales by 20% it may not help with paying better wages.
I do think allowing remote working would help, but then also realize that you may get replaced (eventually) by people located in even cheaper locations…
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And if they raise the prices, then what?
Again, this is a luxury industry, not a necessity, and you can get all the rules for free.
We can push for the people making these products to be paid more, just like in commissioning art, but you have no right to demand they be paid less, and asking for stagnation of wages is just that.
Just because this is a luxury doesn't mean it is completely elastic to the price. Presumably, Paizo already prices their product at the price that maximizes their proffit, so any price change would likely hurt Paizo. Also, likewise, you don't have any right to demand other people pay more for a product.
Humbly,
Yawar
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From my point of view, everyone talked about already makes more than me and my wife combined. Any cost increase would sadly mean stopping purchases. The trouble paizo has to balance is how many are on each side and whether raising prices would actually allow for increased staff care (in whatever form) or actually involve cutting staff due to lost sales.
According to Rent Café, the average rent in Seattle for 700 square feet is $2169/mo. That is $26,028 a year. When most budgeting guides suggest you pay 25% of your income for housing, you can see the disconnect. That is also gross pay vs. a net cost. $36K in salary is likely $27K after taxes. So an employee trying to subsist on $36 K in a housing market that demands almost 100 % of their wages to participate is going to be under enormous financial stress. It’s ironic that the very employees who create the product would not be able to indulge in any gaming purchases due to lack of disposable income.
$36 K for an employee in a high-profile job in a successful company is just wrong. I know a lot of people who live in that area, and rent anxiety is a constant issue. Also, due to the construction of the city and its congestion, there are few options to live farther out without subjecting yourself to immensely long commutes.
I hope if you and your wife make less that $36K a year that you also live in a place where the rent is under $26K a year.
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Also, it is not Paizo's responsability that their employees make a livable wage
It's not a legal requirement. Because the modern world is a pyramid scheme of exploitation, and no-one can opt out.
It is their responsibility. And if they don't believe that, I won't give them any money. Because there's nothing worth saving if they won't lift their people up.
I will not reply any further. I'm not interested in any discussion with you specifically (you're inconvincible), I just wanted to highlight that this is a distinction that matters to me for when the Paizo execs look through stuff like this.
I will support Paizo within a certain grey area of working towards being better. If they genuinely don't take responsibility for the well-being of their staff then continuing to purchase their products, to ensure the staff stay in jobs that will be that terrible, is no longer something I'm willing to do.
It seems I make around what a lot of Paizo staff make per year, which is somewhat depressing.... Nonetheless I would certainly pay an extra $10 per hardcover book no problem. Although I don't know if I would go much beyond the current $25 for APs.
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The earnings at Paizo make academia and civil society look like banger places where money is infinite and it's champagne showers every other week, and that's not the best place to be.
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I feel a thread about accountability got high jacked and is now about consumerism... smdh...
Paizo just had the price of their miniatures increased significantly. Both at the base MSRP and at the Paizo Price. Subscribers were paying about 270 a case. Now they are paying over 100 more per case. Initially they were told it was because they were including huge minis again. This coming case has no huges and is still the higher price. We are now told we were not given the right reason and the new reason is price of production increased.
Bait and switch but people are still subscribing at the higher price. Sure they lost some subscribers but seeing as the test run of the first case evidently didn't lose them enough subscribers to back pedal. They also went from including a premium set at 80% off to 30% off. And now allow people to buy as many as they want regardless of if you buy a case. Which was an original requirement.
They increase prices. The price point is not set in stone. The customers don't leave in droves or make forum posts asking each other to band together in protest.
You know what does cause that? Empathy when we see our siblings in the community mistreated. People want to wine about cancel culture and woke keyboard warriors. They also tell us to vote with our wallets, typically the same people and then they tell us that voting with our wallets accomplishes nothing. They tell us this is how capitalism works. They tell us this is normal. Ask Gygax's kid who was honest about his desire to return to the good Ole days where you could enslave fictional races in ttRPG's and no one would bat an eye lash. Oh? You say his attempt to restart TSR went down in flames? Wonder why...
Our transgender siblings are, at best, hurting under the current practices at Paizo. Historically the only way the ltbg+ community has seen change is when a big spot light gets shined in the dirty corners that the people in power don't want the cis majority to feel uncomfortable about.
It's time to be uncomfortable. It's time for some light and visibility. It's time for Paizo to walk the walk that they have been talking. Profiting from a dialogue that they apparently have not embraced as strongly as we were meant to believe.
I bought the paizo pride pins for my Trans gay kid because I wanted them to know Paizo is a safe company for him and his friends to embrace.
I feel like a s@#% dad for spreading the falsehood. And I want your company to make this right. Visibly and in the light of day.
Accountability
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The earnings at Paizo make academia and civil society look like banger places where money is infinite and it's champagne showers every other week, and that's not the best place to be.
Well, at least in academia the champagne is paid for with university money/taxes :P
I am in the "wait and see how further responses by management" camp, because I did not expect more than we got by Friday on GenCon weekend.
But I do hope for significantly more.
I am bewildered by the people here who maintain that a job... should not pay people enough to survive? I guess the difference in values is staggering to me.
And Paizo did increase some of its prices semi-recently, with the increased PDF prices since PF2e. And I welcomed that, because yeah, the old prices were dirt cheap and based on calculations ages ago. So I do think they deserved more. I am still surprised they did not update new Starfindre products to have increased PDF prices as well.
I would like to point out that people saying that customers won't pay more if they could... are patently wrong? There are products that are produced locally and/or sustainably that seem to be doing well enough. A lot of people value the ethics that went into making their product, if they have a choice.
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According to Rent Café, the average rent in Seattle for 700 square feet is $2169/mo. That is $26,028 a year. When most budgeting guides suggest you pay 25% of your income for housing, you can see the disconnect. That is also gross pay vs. a net cost. $36K in salary is likely $27K after taxes. So an employee trying to subsist on $36 K in a housing market that demands almost 100 % of their wages to participate is going to be under enormous financial stress. It’s ironic that the very employees who create the product would not be able to indulge in any gaming purchases due to lack of disposable income.$36 K for an employee in a high-profile job in a successful company is just wrong. I know a lot of people who live in that area, and rent anxiety is a constant issue. Also, due to the construction of the city and its congestion, there are few options to live farther out without subjecting yourself to immensely long commutes.
I hope if you and your wife make less that $36K a year that you also live in a place where the rent is under $26K a year.
Be careful when using averages, higher end accomodation can really inflate those values. Also, the tendency in cities is moving towards size efficiency.
Humbly,
Yawar
Be careful when using averages, higher end accomodation can really inflate those values. Also, the tendency in cities is moving towards size efficiency.
Humbly,
Yawar
Well, if a statistical average doesn’t convince you, feel free to take a stroll through current listings for Paizo’s area.
And size efficiency? What exactly does that mean? Area we headed towards living in tube lockers like some Gibsonian cyberpunk dystopia?
I mean, I’m a fan of capitalism. But classical capitalism assumes that the business increases wages as they go because that increases employees buying power which in turn increases spending and in effect, increases capitalism. Paizo doesn’t even have the excuse of a publicly traded corporation that can excuse itself by ‘being responsible to the shareholders’. There are no public shareholders.