| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is that rule where you get disadvantage on AoE attacks still part of the summoner class? That is going to be a real pain in higher level play.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm pretty annoyed Boost Eidolon stayed. It's like you don't even get an extra action if you need to be casting that every round. You can try taking Extend Boost to mitigate that but then that forces you to invest big time into a non-charisma skill which comes with its own issues.
| 16 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well for one, if you're that worried about being hit twice with an AOE effect, pick up Protective Bond at Level 10 to mitigate that.
Secondly, that's assuming you'll always be within an AOE's range for the both of you. Since the Eidolon can be up to 100 feet from you (150 feet with an item), this seems unlikely. And just because YOU need to be X feet from an enemy in order to hit them with spells, doesn't mean your Eidolon has to.
Third, that extra action can be anything. It doesn't need to be an attack. Positioning, snagging up an item, Athletics maneuvers, etc. Getting an extra action VS the rest of the characters from Level 1, and not being restricted in the same way as an Animal Companion can lead to a lot of interesting builds.
Also, "that even scales proficiency really badly"? The Eidolon's Unarmed Attacks scale the same as every other martial sans Fighter, gets the same Ability boosts as a PC, gets the equivalent to an Apex Item boost at 17th level, and can either start with an 18 in DEX or STR. So no matter what, it's getting the same proficiency.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Of course it's losing power, they're so scared to design something too powerful that nothing has been as strong as the core classes. And that's on top of the power level being far beneath what we were used to in 1e. It's not bad as far as 2e goes, but it won't fulfill the fantasy in the same way.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of course it's losing power, they're so scared to design something too powerful that nothing has been as strong as the core classes. And that's on top of the power level being far beneath what we were used to in 1e. It's not bad as far as 2e goes, but it won't fulfill the fantasy in the same way.
Magus seems pretty good to me at first blush, I don't have any major issues with the final build of it.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm pretty annoyed Boost Eidolon stayed. It's like you don't even get an extra action if you need to be casting that every round. You can try taking Extend Boost to mitigate that but then that forces you to invest big time into a non-charisma skill which comes with its own issues.
Yeah. Kind of surprised it stayed. It was one of the most complained about features of the playtest and kind of makes Act Together feel like false advertising.
TBH even the Bard equivalent has been getting complaints, but at least it has the luxury of being ridiculously strong.
Extend Boost being harder to land than Lingering Composition feels unnecessary too.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well for one, if you're that worried about being hit twice with an AOE effect, pick up Protective Bond at Level 10 to mitigate that.
Secondly, that's assuming you'll always be within an AOE's range for the both of you. Since the Eidolon can be up to 100 feet from you (150 feet with an item), this seems unlikely. And just because YOU need to be X feet from an enemy in order to hit them with spells, doesn't mean your Eidolon has to.
Third, that extra action can be anything. It doesn't need to be an attack. Positioning, snagging up an item, Athletics maneuvers, etc. Getting an extra action VS the rest of the characters from Level 1, and not being restricted in the same way as an Animal Companion can lead to a lot of interesting builds.
Also, "that even scales proficiency really badly"? The Eidolon's Unarmed Attacks scale the same as every other martial sans Fighter, gets the same Ability boosts as a PC, gets the equivalent to an Apex Item boost at 17th level, and can either start with an 18 in DEX or STR. So no matter what, it's getting the same proficiency.
What is the range on Boost Eidolon? Your best attack cantrips? Heal spells? 30 feet seems like a default for a lot of spells.
Dungeons are not built for you to be far away either.
So there are a lot of situations where you won't be more than 30 feet from your eidolon.
On top of that, if you're far away why wouldn't an enemy just move to you and attack you as the easier to hit target?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What is the range on Boost Eidolon? Your best attack cantrips? Heal spells? 30 feet seems like a default for a lot of spells.Dungeons are not built for you to be far away either.
So there are a lot of situations where you won't be more than 30 feet from your eidolon.
On top of that, if you're far away why wouldn't an enemy just move to you and attack you as the easier to hit target?
Boost eidolon is 100ft
Heal doesn't matter because you can heal yourself because of shared hpAttack cantrip is sadly 30ft.
What is the range on Boost Eidolon? Your best attack cantrips? Heal spells? 30 feet seems like a default for a lot of spells.Dungeons are not built for you to be far away either.
So there are a lot of situations where you won't be more than 30 feet from your eidolon.
On top of that, if you're far away why wouldn't an enemy just move to you and attack you as the easier to hit target?
Boost eidolon is 100ft
Heal doesn't matter because you can heal yourself because of shared hp
Attack cantrip is sadly 30ft.
I plan to rewrite the class once I get the base rules. I do feel badly for the people who have to play this as is as it looks very unspectacular for higher level play. Probably be fine for the Pathfinder Society people who stop at lvl 8 or 10.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah. Attack cantrip builds want to be 30 feet away. Melee builds are probably going to be right next to the eidolon or damn near that.
... And I mean, even that aside "you can mitigate the problems by hiding 100 feet away and just using Boost"... I'm sorry but that doesn't sound very exciting. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the class.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What is the range on Boost Eidolon? Your best attack cantrips? Heal spells? 30 feet seems like a default for a lot of spells.Dungeons are not built for you to be far away either.
So there are a lot of situations where you won't be more than 30 feet from your eidolon.
On top of that, if you're far away why wouldn't an enemy just move to you and attack you as the easier to hit target?
Boost eidolon is 100ft
Heal doesn't matter because you can heal yourself because of shared hp
Attack cantrip is sadly 30ft.
^ That. And for dungeons, tight spaces are a problem in general for AoE casting, too. Too closed off and too little space, and the caster would be hurting themselves with their spells, or allowing too little space for them to escape the hungry, hungry martials. Too much space, and you have the option to space yourselves out, even into another room entirely. It all feeds into itself.
And what stops an enemy from attacking you? Aside from 100 other circumstances, perhaps the other 2-5 party members that you can co-ordinate yourself with? If the "intelligent" enemies are that single-minded to run straight into everyone else's range to take you down, that's a risk they're willing to make.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Of course it's losing power, they're so scared to design something too powerful that nothing has been as strong as the core classes. And that's on top of the power level being far beneath what we were used to in 1e. It's not bad as far as 2e goes, but it won't fulfill the fantasy in the same way.Magus seems pretty good to me at first blush, I don't have any major issues with the final build of it.
Depends on what you take away from it. The magus has to deal with an annoying recharge mechanic which makes stationary turret bow magus the easiest if most static to play (spellstrike, recharge, repeat) while melee magi need haste to not get completely hosed by needing to mix recharge with movement and striking. That action economy issue as well as needing spellstrike to keep up with damage in the first place is going to make magus a real pain to properly utilize. There's a real question if fighter/magus doesn't just do it better by getting its one spellstrike off before doing the usual fighter thing with good martial feats and using dedication slots for utility.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What is the range on Boost Eidolon? Your best attack cantrips? Heal spells? 30 feet seems like a default for a lot of spells.Dungeons are not built for you to be far away either.
So there are a lot of situations where you won't be more than 30 feet from your eidolon.
On top of that, if you're far away why wouldn't an enemy just move to you and attack you as the easier to hit target?
Boost eidolon is 100ft
Heal doesn't matter because you can heal yourself because of shared hp
Attack cantrip is sadly 30ft.^ That. And for dungeons, tight spaces are a problem in general for AoE casting, too. Too closed off and too little space, and the caster would be hurting themselves with their spells, or allowing too little space for them to escape the hungry, hungry martials. Too much space, and you have the option to space yourselves out, even into another room entirely. It all feeds into itself.
And what stops an enemy from attacking you? Aside from 100 other circumstances, perhaps the other 2-5 party members that you can co-ordinate yourself with? If the "intelligent" enemies are that single-minded to run straight into everyone else's range to take you down, that's a risk they're willing to make.
It's not a risk as if you're that far away, anyone will take multiple actions to close the distance to help you why a devil can D-door or a dragon can fly that in one move and still attack you.
From a design perspective, it wouldn't be near as bad with disadvantage on saves if you didn't share a hit point pool. It would draw hits points from each pool. I proved this multiple times during the playtest in higher level play, but apparently it hasn't been accounted for save with a feat tax that causes you to use your reaction to normalize that will prevent you from using other reaction abilities.
We will see. Like the playtest I will do a run with the summoner as is, compare the damage and overall capabilities against other classes, then adjust as needed. Same as I did for the Swashbuckler, Wizard, and Witch to determine problems and possible fixes.
For the most part the balance is real good. But certain classes like the wizard is a little weak. Witch has a few fun and effective builds. Swashbuckler needed a few tweaks and is otherwise good.
Summoner will likely need some tweaking.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
From my math, Act Together(Electric Arc, Strike) Strike (preferrably with Boost extended through the combat) is reasonably good.
But that's pretty much your complete bread and butter. Summoners don't get a lot of action variety.
Breath Weapon can be good against groups, but it's eidolon dependent. Wrath is the same, for a feat. Tandem Strike actually reduces the damage you do.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
From my math, Act Together(Electric Arc, Strike) Strike (preferrably with Boost extended through the combat) is reasonably good.
But that's pretty much your complete bread and butter. Summoners don't get a lot of action variety.
Breath Weapon can be good against groups, but it's eidolon dependent. Wrath is the same, for a feat. Tandem Strike actually reduces the damage you do.
Part of the fun of playing a summoner in PF1 was the action versatility with different builds. That needs to be there.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Summoners are a lot more effective than casters at low levels. At high levels they are still at the level of monks and champions in melee damage, but they have the ability to cast 4 high impact spells, that's clearly a new niche.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Depends on what you take away from it. The magus has to deal with an annoying recharge mechanic which makes stationary turret bow magus the easiest if most static to play (spellstrike, recharge, repeat) while melee magi need haste to not get completely hosed by needing to mix recharge with movement and striking. That action economy issue as well as needing spellstrike to keep up with damage in the first place is going to make magus a real pain to properly utilize. There's a real question if fighter/magus doesn't just do it better by getting its one spellstrike off before doing the usual fighter thing with good martial feats and using dedication slots for utility.
Force Fang looks really nice to me for "free" recharges, guaranteed damage is always good to have and since it's not even an attack you can flexibly use it as your first or third action to get that recharge without disrupting your normal rotation.
|
Yeah. Attack cantrip builds want to be 30 feet away.
Don't Summoners get Reach Spell as a Class feat ? If not, these builds might want to multiclass just to get it. It completely changes combat tactics for a caster and is even better if you have a meat shield around to stop opponents from getting close.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
They don't. It's a plausible option, but that's a fairly expensive investment and eats heavily into your Eidolon's action economy.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Worrying about the monsters running up to the Summoner and hitting them seems a bit strange since there is nothing stopping them from doing the same to a wizard, except summoners have almost double the hit points when compared to wizards.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm pretty annoyed Boost Eidolon stayed. It's like you don't even get an extra action if you need to be casting that every round. You can try taking Extend Boost to mitigate that but then that forces you to invest big time into a non-charisma skill which comes with its own issues.Yeah. Kind of surprised it stayed. It was one of the most complained about features of the playtest and kind of makes Act Together feel like false advertising.
TBH even the Bard equivalent has been getting complaints, but at least it has the luxury of being ridiculously strong.
Extend Boost being harder to land than Lingering Composition feels unnecessary too.
In terms of damage output, Boost Eidolon is just useful if you make at least 2 attacks, and in that case it's not much much better than making a third attack. The fact that the Eidolon can now start at 18 Str makes it even less interesting than in the past. I think it is now properly balanced: It's only useful if you want to use your 4 actions on the Eidolon, and in that case it's just slightly better than a 3rd attack, so nothing extremely fancy. It's kind of a default action you use when you have nothing interesting to do, but relying to much on it is a bad strategy.
| 16 people marked this as a favorite. |
Area effects will always deal the worst damage to you and the sigil makes it "obvious" to sentient creatures that you're linked so they'll swing their swords at whoever looks easiest to hit.
So you essentially take the worst AC and worst saving throws between you and your eidolon. And you're twice as likely to be standing in a place where an aoe is going to come down.
In my opinion, it's made on purpose.
I'm pretty sure balancing the Summoner has been a headache for Paizo. If the Eidolon is too weak, it doesn't fulfill the fantasy of the super strong creature. On the other side, the Summoner can hardly be too weak, as there are tons of things included by default on the chassis of every class and having a class without these things would feel very weird. Also, the Summoner has to cast spell to feel like a PF1 Summoner.So they included this liability to have more power for the Eidolon and the Summoner. Removing it would mean nerfing something else, and I don't think there is anything you can nerf on either the Summoner or the Eidolon without losing too much efficiency on something very important for the player.
The very concept of a class that gives you 2 powerful creatures is extremely strong. If we follow the rules for monsters, it would mean that both creatures should be 2 levels under other PCs. That would make the Eidolon a useless martial. That's why adding liabilities was a necessity to give a proper power level to the Eidolon.
| 16 people marked this as a favorite. |
I guess I'm of a different headspace bc release alchemist and certain witch builds (no cackle, no lessons) are my high water mark for bad in P2e. Summoner seems perfectly fine considering it exists between martials and casters while still retaining master martial proficiency. I also never played p1e, though. I have no prior expectation of the class beyond the theme.
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
But you're not really getting 2 creatures. For all intents and purposes you have 1 creature that can be in two places at once. Which honestly feels like a drawback as opposed to a boon because you have twice the hitbox with very little benefit.
And that's exactly what I said, so we agree!
Because Paizo didn't manage to balance 2 different creatures without making them so weak that it would fulfill no fantasy, they created some kind of hybrid creature which is at 2 places at once.
Area effects will always deal the worst damage to you and the sigil makes it "obvious" to sentient creatures that you're linked so they'll swing their swords at whoever looks easiest to hit.
So you essentially take the worst AC and worst saving throws between you and your eidolon. And you're twice as likely to be standing in a place where an aoe is going to come down.
In my opinion, it's made on purpose.
I'm pretty sure balancing the Summoner has been a headache for Paizo. If the Eidolon is too weak, it doesn't fulfill the fantasy of the super strong creature. On the other side, the Summoner can hardly be too weak, as there are tons of things included by default on the chassis of every class and having a class without these things would feel very weird. Also, the Summoner has to cast spell to feel like a PF1 Summoner.
So they included this liability to have more power for the Eidolon and the Summoner. Removing it would mean nerfing something else, and I don't think there is anything you can nerf on either the Summoner or the Eidolon without losing too much efficiency on something very important for the player.The very concept of a class that gives you 2 powerful creatures is extremely strong. If we follow the rules for monsters, it would mean that both creatures should be 2 levels under other PCs. That would make the Eidolon a useless martial. That's why adding liabilities was a necessity to give a proper power level to the Eidolon.
But you're not really getting 2 creatures. For all intents and purposes you have 1 creature that can be in two places at once. Which honestly feels like a drawback as opposed to a boon because you have twice the hitbox with very little benefit.
I remember in the playtest, my group got into a fight and the engagement broke into two littler fights about 30 feet away.
"Perfect" I thought "as a Summoner,I'll send my dragon to one side and I'll cast at the guys at the other side.Well, what actually happened was...
We really need a good testing of the final product to see how it goes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Force Fang looks really nice to me for "free" recharges, guaranteed damage is always good to have and since it's not even an attack you can flexibly use it as your first or third action to get that recharge without disrupting your normal rotation.
Except that force fang is still an action. Squeezing out extra damage for it is good but you're still in the same situation with your action economy.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
More on topic, your basic summoner rotations will likely be (assuming eidolon in enemy reach):
act together (boost + strike), strike, stride/tandem movement
And
Act together (electric arc + strike), stride/tandem movement
Act together letting you spell+strike make you a more stable magus that doesn't need to recharge and doesn't provoke reactions by casting in melee. You can't use attack spells, but electric arc on two enemies even on a save (which they will) is still pretty good. The cost is that you have disadvantage on AoE damage.
You have more base hp than other casters so being inside 30ft is less of an issue for you than other cloth casters.
The base rotations aside you have incredible turn versatility and haste feels even better for you than other characters. Demoralize, battle medicine, sustain spell and other one action activities go well with eidolon 2 action abilities or eidolon's wrath while still letting your eidolon escape melee or making its own strike or using a 3 action spell while letting the eidolon stride and strike. Five (5) actions is really strong is my point.
The only real downsides are lack of combat feats to make maneuvers worthwhile and the constraints of wavecasting. Summoner has great feats 2-8 so it's painful to try and get multiclassing in. In free archetype games, this goes away and summoner becomes a pretty brutal class.
| 21 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let's not forget the entire rest of the game. Having an extra body can come in very handy for lots of things.
Blocking escape routes, intimidation, body count puzzles (e.g. both levers need to be pulled at once), mundane labor, reduced likelihood of getting jumped, carrying treasure, impressing locals, performing tasks then bamfing (close the gate, cut the rope, delay the baddies)...
Based on the math and mechanics looking decent (not OP nor severely behind other) I would definitely say this class has loads of potential.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well also some skill uses that work like once per creature or day, like Battle Medicine works on both you and the eidolon, intimidation can be used by you and the eidolon against the same creature going around the immunity after using once.
Being "your own ally" for some spells or feats.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Having two hit boxes isn't so bad once you realize the healer has twice the access points from which to heal you.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In one of the games I’m playing in, one of the other players is running a dhampir playtest summoner.
I really appreciate being able to Battle Medicine the summoner to keep the Eidolon hp up, without having to rush into melee range. On the flip side, if I need to drop a real deal spell, I don’t need to prep a Harm to cover the dhampir—I can just target the Eidolon.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Having two hitboxes is pretty much meaningless because enemies don't decide who to attack based on surface area and a character has 9 adjacent squares to be attacked from. You will never be targeted simply because of that.
A summoner and Eidolon should fairly quickly get the same AC. Spend the general feats on armor proficiency or just grab sentinel. The summoner can spend an action to raise a shield if he's desperate.
The roll twice take lower on AoE spells is brutal though. It's a massive vulnerability and the class doesn't give any defensive advantages to offset that while actively encouraging the summoner to stay close to the Eidolon.
Another big weakness is that if the Summoner hits zero the Eidolon poofs and isn't coming back for the fight at least. Rather than in a desperate situation even a weak heal can get any other class swinging at full strength again.
But looking beyond the defensive side of things, the summoner's biggest bonus is that it effectively gets 4 actions. Except if the Eidolon wants to pretend to be a martial the summoner needs to spend an action to buff it. So really in most situations it's three actions. And compared to other martials the Eidolon doesn't get much. Its strikes are poor damage. Its defenses are nothing special. And it doesn't have any fancy tricks aside from what the chassis gives it like every other martial.
On the summoner side the summoner gets 4 spells and some cantrips. The cantrips aren't useless but if you really want one there are plenty of ways to get one as any class. And with how progression works summoner cantrips will just be less effective than full caster cantrips at various points, especially if the summoner doesn't start with 18 charisma because it's easy to pick 4 spells that don't care about casting stat, like summons. Now those 4 spells can be top level buffs except there's no rule that you can cast personal buffs (the very few that there are) on your Eidolon so every buff you can cast another full caster could cast instead (it's...
I mean, if you want to laser focus only on combat, you can't forget the value of wands and staves. What you've described already seems perfectly balanced against other classes, now add on a boatload of more utility spells.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've been trying to figure out if it's possible to give yourself Aid, as well. I don't think it is, but if so that's pretty neat.Well also some skill uses that work like once per creature or day, like Battle Medicine works on both you and the eidolon, intimidation can be used by you and the eidolon against the same creature going around the immunity after using once.
Being "your own ally" for some spells or feats.
As far as I can tell, nothing is stopping you from aiding your eidolon. All for one remains a great feat for any cha-based character.
Well also some skill uses that work like once per creature or day, like Battle Medicine works on both you and the eidolon, intimidation can be used by you and the eidolon against the same creature going around the immunity after using once.
Being "your own ally" for some spells or feats.
Ah, doubling down on Intimidate is a good idea. I was considering skill-focused builds to be the way to go but the shared proficiencies put a damper on that (Dual Studies giving Expert late and not giving Master/Legendary at all is bad).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
After the data of the books is in Foundry one of my players will run a lvl 9 one shot to test the classes.
I will be running a Beast "Heatleo" Eidolon.
To keep the fire theme I am planing the energy evolution (fire) at lvl 1, cantrips, the skill feats evolution, eidolons wrath (also fire) and the eidolon spells (for blazing dive and flame wisp on the eidolon) on it, looks like something fun to do.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Depends on what you take away from it. The magus has to deal with an annoying recharge mechanic which makes stationary turret bow magus the easiest if most static to play (spellstrike, recharge, repeat) while melee magi need haste to not get completely hosed by needing to mix recharge with movement and striking. That action economy issue as well as needing spellstrike to keep up with damage in the first place is going to make magus a real pain to properly utilize. There's a real question if fighter/magus doesn't just do it better by getting its one spellstrike off before doing the usual fighter thing with good martial feats and using dedication slots for utility.Force Fang looks really nice to me for "free" recharges, guaranteed damage is always good to have and since it's not even an attack you can flexibly use it as your first or third action to get that recharge without disrupting your normal rotation.
It's not bad, as far as I can tell from not having the book, but it has to jump through hoops for the kind of base performance you'd get from a core class. Are the hoops fun or interesting? Depends on the player, I'd say yes for me. But that still puts it below the curve, like every class post core. It's the opposite of what I usually see in these kinds of games - personally I see it as a neutral point.
You're a Cha-based caster though. Aren't you likely to have master or legendary intimidation yourself? If you've got it, then your eidolon's got it.Ah, doubling down on Intimidate is a good idea. I was considering skill-focused builds to be the way to go but the shared proficiencies put a damper on that (Dual Studies giving Expert late and not giving Master/Legendary at all is bad).Well also some skill uses that work like once per creature or day, like Battle Medicine works on both you and the eidolon, intimidation can be used by you and the eidolon against the same creature going around the immunity after using once.
Being "your own ally" for some spells or feats.
I was more thinking in terms of splitting roles between the caster and eidolon. The caster is good at intimidation and the eidolon is good at athletics, but as it stands you really need to invest in athletics on your caster if you want your eidolon to be doing that.
I think people just don't "get" the class design idea of PF2. The core classes (with the exception of Alchemist) are supposed to be the most powerful. The expanded classes from other books are there to fill a character concept for role playing reasons. Generally these non-core classes are slightly less powerful than the core classes overall, and are much trickier to build optimally.