Hello, one of my players want to use greater vital strike and furious finish, this is posible or just vital strike is possible?
Thanks in advance.
RAW it's Vital Strike only, but personally I would allow it for Imp/Gr Vital Strike as well. It's not game breaking, and I would equate it to the same as the 5th level power in Psionics Brutalize Wounds. Psychic Warriors don't get access to this Power until level 13-15ish, and it's not game breaking either.
RAW it's Vital Strike only, but personally I would allow it for Imp/Gr Vital Strike as well. It's not game breaking, and I would equate it to the same as the 5th level power in Psionics Brutalize Wounds. Psychic Warriors don't get access to this Power until level 13-15ish, and it's not game breaking either.
Over 100 damage on a standar action its not broken?
Benefit: While raging, when you use the Vital Strike feat,Very specific, only when using Vital strike, not when using Greater Vital strike.
Thx Diego, now my friend tells me this:
The description of Gravitational Strike seems to imply that Improved/Greater Vital Strike DO apply to Furious Finish.
Gravitational Strike says:
When using any Vital Strike feat in an area of light or heavy gravity, roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack one additional time
and then proceeds to make an example about Improved Vital Strike:
For example, if using Improved Vital Strike, you would roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack four times before adding other damage bonuses, instead of three times.
This means that Improved Vital Strike is, indeed, a "Vital Strike feat". In other words, "Vital Strike feat" encompasses Vital Strike itself, and its improved versions. This is the same wording used for Furious Finish:
While raging, when you use the Vital Strike feat
therefore Improved/Greater Vital Strike should apply too.
Yeah, just the way the feats are structured make Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, and Greater Vital Strike their own specific actions. So, RAW, no it wouldn't be strictly legal.
However, I merely treat the additional feats as increasing the damage dealt with the Vital Strike action itself, rather than their own specific actions. So, that problem/issue disappears in my home games.
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Possible nitpick: "a" vital strike feat =/= "the" vital strike feat.
Unlike for example Improved and Greater Spring Attack, Improved and Greater Vital Strike do not modify VS, they're completely seperate (indeed, they make no mention of Vital Strike whatsoever in their benefits sections) - when you're using them, you're not using the original Vital Strike feat. But since Furious Finish says "the Vital Strike feat", it only works when using that specific feat.
For comparison, Devastating Strike, from the same book, says "Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike". Diabolic Judgment says "any Vital Strike feat", and thus also works with the improved/greater version. Furious Focus is one of two feats meant for PCs that doesn't have such language, and we have to presume that's deliberate.
Edit: Holy mother of all ninjas! I got ninja'd by six posts!
RAW it's Vital Strike only, but personally I would allow it for Imp/Gr Vital Strike as well. It's not game breaking, and I would equate it to the same as the 5th level power in Psionics Brutalize Wounds. Psychic Warriors don't get access to this Power until level 13-15ish, and it's not game breaking either.Over 100 damage on a standar action its not broken?
Keep in mind it locks you out of doing a full action, and by those levels you can easily do more than 100 on a full attack.
What they're getting of this is the ability to move and still do decent damage.
RAW it's Vital Strike only, but personally I would allow it for Imp/Gr Vital Strike as well. It's not game breaking, and I would equate it to the same as the 5th level power in Psionics Brutalize Wounds. Psychic Warriors don't get access to this Power until level 13-15ish, and it's not game breaking either.Over 100 damage on a standar action its not broken?
You can't get Greater Vital Strike until BAB 16, and by then, Blaster Casters are hucking 400-700 damage fireballs twice a round. So no, I don't think 100 damage on a martial at level 16 is broken.
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Benefit: While raging, when you use the Vital Strike feat,Very specific, only when using Vital strike, not when using Greater Vital strike.Thx Diego, now my friend tells me this:
The description of Gravitational Strike seems to imply that Improved/Greater Vital Strike DO apply to Furious Finish.
Gravitational Strike says:
When using any Vital Strike feat in an area of light or heavy gravity, roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack one additional time
and then proceeds to make an example about Improved Vital Strike:
For example, if using Improved Vital Strike, you would roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack four times before adding other damage bonuses, instead of three times.
This means that Improved Vital Strike is, indeed, a "Vital Strike feat". In other words, "Vital Strike feat" encompasses Vital Strike itself, and its improved versions. This is the same wording used for Furious Finish:
While raging, when you use the Vital Strike feat
therefore Improved/Greater Vital Strike should apply too.
There is a difference between any Vital strike feat and the Vital strike feat.
Any Vital Strike feat is any feat in the Vital strike feats chain. The Vital Strike feat is a specific feat, the one called Vital Strike, without any other term.
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RAW it's Vital Strike only, but personally I would allow it for Imp/Gr Vital Strike as well. It's not game breaking, and I would equate it to the same as the 5th level power in Psionics Brutalize Wounds. Psychic Warriors don't get access to this Power until level 13-15ish, and it's not game breaking either.
Psionics Expanded: Advanced Psionics Guide. Copyright 2011, Dreamscarred Press; Authors: Jeremy Smith and Andreas Rönnqvist.
What is the relevance of a Dreamscarred Press book when speaking of how the Paizo rules work?
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RAW it's Vital Strike only, but personally I would allow it for Imp/Gr Vital Strike as well. It's not game breaking, and I would equate it to the same as the 5th level power in Psionics Brutalize Wounds. Psychic Warriors don't get access to this Power until level 13-15ish, and it's not game breaking either.Psionics Expanded: Advanced Psionics Guide. Copyright 2011, Dreamscarred Press; Authors: Jeremy Smith and Andreas Rönnqvist.What is the relevance of a Dreamscarred Press book when speaking of how the Paizo rules work?
Oh, I apologize, I didn't realize you own the Rules Forum and everything we discuss here. I was simply giving reasoning for why I would personally allow Imp/Gr Vital Strike to be used with Furious Finish and why I don't think it would be game-breaking because I've seen something similar to this in action, is that alright with you? Do I have your permission to do that? Pretty pretty please can I say whatever I want on the internet?
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I know this is the Rules Arena, and not the casual Opinion Picinic... but Vital Strike isn't good enough to argue about.
All three feats should be one scaling feat that increases to the next step at the designated BAB. And it still wouldn't be worth arguing about. Lol. Sure, Vital Strike can be made useful with some investment, but the BAB prerequisites mean you don't see the benefits of your investments until relatively late in your character's career... regardless of how early you start investing in it.
I can see certain things like Flyby Attack, Furious Finish, Gorum's Swordmanship, and the Scout Rogue's Skirmisher ability making decent use of Vital Strike. And I have always allowed Gorum's Swordmanship to include Improved/Greater Vital Strike on a charge, even though it says "THE" Vital Strike feat (not "A" Vital Strike feat)...
Arguments like this are why martials can't have nice things.
Nobody argues about the level 5 Wizard having a piece of a CR 18 sentient creature in their spell component pouch when they cast Monstrous Physique... but the level 16 Barbarian has to worry about the difference between "A" Vital Strike feat versus "THE" Vital Strike feat?
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Oh, I apologize, I didn't realize you own the Rules Forum and everything we discuss here. I was simply giving reasoning for why I would personally allow Imp/Gr Vital Strike to be used with Furious Finish and why I don't think it would be game-breaking because I've seen something similar to this in action, is that alright with you? Do I have your permission to do that? Pretty pretty please can I say whatever I want on the internet?RAW it's Vital Strike only, but personally I would allow it for Imp/Gr Vital Strike as well. It's not game breaking, and I would equate it to the same as the 5th level power in Psionics Brutalize Wounds. Psychic Warriors don't get access to this Power until level 13-15ish, and it's not game breaking either.Psionics Expanded: Advanced Psionics Guide. Copyright 2011, Dreamscarred Press; Authors: Jeremy Smith and Andreas Rönnqvist.What is the relevance of a Dreamscarred Press book when speaking of how the Paizo rules work?
When you cite a rule, normally it is done as a way to post a rule argument. As now you have cleared that is a "My opinion argument, based on how it is done in other rulesets." I have no reason to contest it.
Opinions are a personal choice.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, I apologize, I didn't realize you own the Rules Forum and everything we discuss here. I was simply giving reasoning for why I would personally allow Imp/Gr Vital Strike to be used with Furious Finish and why I don't think it would be game-breaking because I've seen something similar to this in action, is that alright with you? Do I have your permission to do that? Pretty pretty please can I say whatever I want on the internet?RAW it's Vital Strike only, but personally I would allow it for Imp/Gr Vital Strike as well. It's not game breaking, and I would equate it to the same as the 5th level power in Psionics Brutalize Wounds. Psychic Warriors don't get access to this Power until level 13-15ish, and it's not game breaking either.Psionics Expanded: Advanced Psionics Guide. Copyright 2011, Dreamscarred Press; Authors: Jeremy Smith and Andreas Rönnqvist.What is the relevance of a Dreamscarred Press book when speaking of how the Paizo rules work?When you cite a rule, normally it is done as a way to post a rule argument. As now you have cleared that is a "My opinion argument, based on how it is done in other rulesets." I have no reason to contest it.
Opinions are a personal choice.
Yep. That's why I was careful to phrase it as
RAW it's Vital Strike only, but personally I would allow it
I really don't know how much more clearer I could've made it.
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People saying vital strike is weak haven't seen level 7 characters drop 280ish damage in a single hit.
Granted, it's not good for 99.9% of builds but that .1% using oversized butchers axes with lead blades and enlarge person are terrifying
Sounds more like 2 free rounds of buffing are terrifying.
Sounds more like 2 free rounds of buffing are terrifying.People saying vital strike is weak haven't seen level 7 characters drop 280ish damage in a single hit.
Granted, it's not good for 99.9% of builds but that .1% using oversized butchers axes with lead blades and enlarge person are terrifying
This. As a GM I long ago set up rules to let people know that we're not going to count exact rounds of spell duration, instead anything that last a minute or less only last for the combat you cast it in.
I realize those spells are longer than 1 minute but spell duration can definitely be an issue at play for these sorts of things.
In this case, yeah the combo could be precast and can be extremely effective.
In this case, asking your player to not go so extreme on damage min maxing would be reasonable. Part of the problem is letting them used oversized butcher's axes. I realize there are legal ways to do it, but the primary one is tiefling with a specific ability that is supposed to be random and not chosen by the player.
And the problem here isn't really vital strike or it's chain. It's the butcher axe and everything else leading up to vital strike.
Part of the problem is letting them used oversized butcher's axes. I realize there are legal ways to do it, but the primary one is tiefling with a specific ability that is supposed to be random and not chosen by the player.While this is true it rules out using enlarge person since tieflings are not humanoid. Then even if you manage to jump through that hoop the variant ability only gives you the ability to use large size weapons without penalty. As soon as you enlarge the weapon goes up the next size category as well, losing the ability to to use it.
I prefer using the Titan Fighter archetype.
While it's true that technically, the ability specifies large weapons I think a lot of people who would try to abuse the system in the way outlined above would also argue that the ability was written with the expectation of being a medium creature, and so when you enlarge it should work despite that. And there are ways to count as humanoid, such as the Pass for Human trait to allow you to easily count for the enlarge person spell.
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commentary: don't worry, only 1 intensified quickened and 2 persistent dazing fireballs that did acid damage went off in those two rounds...Sounds more like 2 free rounds of buffing are terrifying.People saying vital strike is weak haven't seen level 7 characters drop 280ish damage in a single hit.
Granted, it's not good for 99.9% of builds but that .1% using oversized butchers axes with lead blades and enlarge person are terrifying
Living monolith, enlarge person is a swift.
in a couple levels Impact weapon would just always be active.
Living Monolith has far too much roleplaying baggage imo. You basically sign on to become the crypt guards from The Mummy. Pretty hard to justify being out adventuring when you're sworn to protect a place you've never seen in a location you've never visited.
Swarm Shifter might be a better choice.
^ The improved and greater versions literally replace the older versions. It's all still a "vital strike" whenever you use just your normal standard attack action.
Fwiw, Cleaving Smash does draw a distinction between Gr VS, Imp VS, and VS for the purposes of Cleaving and causing VS or Imp VS damage to pri/sec targets.
Cleaving SmashAdditional Prerequisite(s): Cleave, Improved Vital Strike, Power Attack
When you use Cleave, you can add the additional damage from Vital Strike to both your initial and your secondary attacks. If you also have the Greater Vital Strike feat, you can instead add the damage from Improved Vital Strike to both your initial and your secondary attacks.
All that is saying is that you get a worsened step of vital strike with cleaving specifically. It just so happens to be that the simplest/shortest wording is one that references the specific feats instead of their effects.
Yeah, but it's one more ability/feat that specifically calls out the 3 different versions of Vital Strike, while the Furious Finish feat calls out the first step of Vital Strike specifically. Here's my point: If Furious Finish was meant to be used with Imp/Gr Vital Strike, it would say so. So, RAW it's Vital Strike only, and not Imp/Gr Vital Strike.
With that said, I'm still quite certain that allowing Imp/Gr Vital Strike to work with this is perfectly acceptable and a good candidate for a House Rule to allow it. I don't think this is game breaking at all to allow it, and it keeps your player happy so why not.
I disagree, its one thing to say "you get the additional damage from [specific feat]" than "when you use [specific feat]". One is a short hand for a specific effect, the other is a feat that is superseded by another.
Yeah, I think it's dumb the way they worded it.
Like I wrote upthread, Devastating Strike, says "Whenever you use Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike". Why would the use such fundamentally different language for two feats from the same book if they were meant to work the same way?
It's not just that single feat, too. Improved Devastating Strike, Mythic Vital Strike, All-Consuming Swing, Blooded Arcane Strike, Faerie's Strike, Grasping Strike, Winter's Strike, Startoss Comet, Startoss Shower, Painful Blow, Cloak And Dagger Tactics, and Cerberus Crush all also call out all three VS feats, and Soulblade and Diabolic Judgment say "any Vital Strike feat". The only feats that only call out VS itself are Furious Finish, Deep Toxin, Staggering Blow, Savage Critical, and Giant's Crush, with the last three being intended for monsters and not PCs.
Honestly though, how is this discussion still going? Saying "the Vital Strike feat" refered to other feats as well is like when you link up with someone in London, and you've agreed to meet on the London Bridge, and when they angrily call you when you're a no-show, you respond "What, I'm at the Tower Bridge. It's a bridge in London, so it counts!" Hell no it doesn't!
"the Vital Strike feat" means "the Vital Strike feat". Not "the Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, and Greater Vital Strike feats". Not "any feat containing the words vital strike". Not "any feat that has something to do with Vital Strike". It works with one single feat in the game. If you don't use that specific feat, you can't use Furious Finish.
Does Furious Finish work with feats other than VS? No. Would it be overpowered to allow it? No - it becomes relevant after (or around) the level most qualifying characters have access to pounce, which is way stronger. Should it thus be allowed? No - if we're houseruling an option for moving and still doing notable damage, wouldn't it be better to pick one that isn't restricted to a small number of classes and archetype, and requires (or at least heavily rewards) the ridiculous cheesiness of rage cycling?
It's all still a "vital strike" whenever you use just your normal standard attack action.
Er, what? This makes no sense. Not every attack action is a Vital Strike!
People saying vital strike is weak haven't seen level 7 characters drop 280ish damage in a single hit.
How? Even an oversized Butchering Axe with Lead Blades and Enlarge Person only does 8d6, with VS and Furious Finish, that's 96 damage.
It's all still a "vital strike" whenever you use just your normal standard attack action.Er, what? This makes no sense. Not every attack action is a Vital Strike!
People saying vital strike is weak haven't seen level 7 characters drop 280ish damage in a single hit.How? Even an oversized Butchering Axe with Lead Blades and Enlarge Person only does 8d6, with VS and Furious Finish, that's 96 damage.
Regarding the first, any standard attack action (i.e. not cleave, partial charge, etc. that are all their own independent actions) is in fact valid for a vital strike, which is what the original comment's context was intended to correct.
For the second, you can still crit for 24d6+3*dmgbonus+48(Furious Finish). Assuming +1 weapon, 22 str, 26 with rage, power attack, and powerful stance, that damage bonus is at least +21 at level seven for +63, average of 72 on the critted dmg die, or a total 183 damage on your average crit. Maybe Name Violation thought the 48 from furious finish multiplied on crit to for an extra 96 damage, which would put it to 279 average damage, but that isn't the case.
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It's all still a "vital strike" whenever you use just your normal standard attack action.Er, what? This makes no sense. Not every attack action is a Vital Strike!
People saying vital strike is weak haven't seen level 7 characters drop 280ish damage in a single hit.How? Even an oversized Butchering Axe with Lead Blades and Enlarge Person only does 8d6, with VS and Furious Finish, that's 96 damage.Regarding the first, any standard attack action (i.e. not cleave, partial charge, etc. that are all their own independent actions) is in fact valid for a vital strike, which is what the original comment's context was intended to correct.
For the second, you can still crit for 24d6+3*dmgbonus+48(Furious Finish). Assuming +1 weapon, 22 str, 26 with rage, power attack, and powerful stance, that damage bonus is at least +21 at level seven for +63, average of 72 on the critted dmg die, or a total 183 damage on your average crit. Maybe Name Violation thought the 48 from furious finish multiplied on crit to for an extra 96 damage, which would put it to 279 average damage, but that isn't the case.
8d6 for oversized enlarged impact axe, crit x3 (cyclopse helm, auto confirm with scarab)=24d6, +8d6 vital strike. Furious finish maximizes all the damage
192 + 3x double str mod (2 handed fighter)+ powerattack and 3x weapon enhancementwith a raging str of only 24, power attack and a +1 weapon thats another 72.
thats 264 damage total.
and that can be way more optimized
Once per day as an immediate action, the wearer can choose the result of the die roll instead of rolling her next attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or ability check.
While raging, when you use the Vital Strike feat, you can choose not to roll your damage dice and instead deal damage equal to the maximum roll possible on those damage dice. If you do, your rage immediately ends, and you are fatigued (even if you would not normally be
Once per day, as an immediate action, when the wearer of a pendant of the blood scarab threatens a critical hit with any attack, he may automatically confirm the critical hit
Ah, it was my understanding that only the vital strike damage are maximized.
@Name Violation
Both Cyclops Helm and Pendant of the Blood Scarab uses up your Swift/Immediate action. As does Living Monolith's Enlarge Person.
But I dunno, it feels like Cyclops Helm is pulling the most weight here.
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@Name Violation
Both Cyclops Helm and Pendant of the Blood Scarab uses up your Swift/Immediate action. As does Living Monolith's Enlarge Person.
But I dunno, it feels like Cyclops Helm is pulling the most weight here.
it was my understanding that the immediate action steals the swift from your NEXT round, but i may be wrong about that
You can use an Immediate Action during your turn, and then as soon as your turn ends, you can use another Immediate Action, and then the following round you wouldn't be able to use a Swift.
And even if it was simply that it “steals your Swift for the following turn” you still can’t use two immediate actions in the same turn.
Yeah, you don't really need the cyclops help to give you free crit threatens, you can just get a crit threat and immediate to autoconfirm on two different rounds with both items.
crit x3 (cyclopse helm, auto confirm with scarab)=24d6
So in order to do that in a somwhat reliable way, you need a wondrous item from a very specific dungeon that shouldn't be aviable to players in any other campaign (and probably not at that level in that dungeon), and need to use it two rounds earlier with not making any attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or ability check in the meantime. It also requires a +2 equivalent weapon (for a total of ~64% of WBL spend on weapon, helm, and amulet) and severe multiclassing, or external buffs.