having a spell like ability no longer help for requirement (like arcane spell caster) , unless the specific spell is listed.
was faqed -up
|
having a spell like ability no longer help for requirement (like arcane spell caster) , unless the specific spell is listed.
was faqed -up
Thanks - i did not know that.
Personally as a GM i would totally allow a Arcanist to count as spontaneous and let dragon bloodline work with Blood of Dragons.
I'd point the player to the option of dipping sorcerer and picking up arcanist's bloodline development.
Requirements
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Any non-dragon.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks*.
Languages: Draconic.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
Arcanists are prepared casters, but then cast their daily prepared spells spontaneously, so Arcanist does not qualify for DD and it's because they cannot cast arcane spells without preperation. You can do a 1 level Sorc dip, but your DD levels are going to further your Sorcerer levels, not your Arcanist levels.
So if you were a level 4Arcanist/1Sorc and at level6 you begin taking your 10 levels of DD, you would be 4 Arc/1Sorc/10DD, but you would cast spells like a 4th level Arc and an 8th lvl Sorc, and have Bloodline Powers as an 11th level Sorcerer.
If you want Arcanist levels to apply to DD, that's fine it's your game, but this is homebrew not RAW.
the language of Dragon Disciple doesn’t support that view.Requirements
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Any non-dragon.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks*.
Languages: Draconic.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
Arcanists are prepared casters, but then cast their daily prepared spells spontaneously, so Arcanist does not qualify for DD. You can do a 1 level Sorc dip, but your DD levels are going to further your Sorcerer levels, not your Arcanist levels.
So if you were a level 4Arcanist/1Sorc and at level6 you begin taking your 10 levels of DD, you would be 4 Arc/1Sorc/10DD, but you would cast spells like a 4th level Arc and an 8th lvl Sorc, and have Bloodline Powers as an 11th level Sorcerer.
If you want Arcanist levels to apply to DD, that's fine it's your game, but this is homebrew not RAW.
At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
If that were true, there would be only 1 DD build to rule them all. CrossbloodedSorc1(Orc/Draconic)/AdmixtureWizard4/DD10---> AdmixtureWizardX.
The class that you'd like to further with DD still has to satisfy the prerequisites of the DD PrC, so if your character is an EldritchScion1/Bard1/Sorc1/Bloodrager4, all 4 of these classes would qualify, and then your bolded statement upthread would apply. The PC would need to pick one of these classes to progress with DD their levels.
The class that you'd like to further with DD still has to satisfy the prerequisites of the DD PrC, so if your character is an EldritchScion1/Bard1/Sorc1/Bloodrager4, all 4 of these classes would qualify, and then your bolded statement upthread would apply. The PC would need to pick one of these classes to progress with DD their levels.I understand that’s how you feel, but what rule is there that supports that?
When Dragon Disciple was printed, there were only three arcane classes and no archetypes, with Wizard being the most iconic, and they specifically wrote the ‘spells per day’ feature as being open to any arcane class with Spontaneous casters described as being only one possibility.
Dragon Disciple does not progress Wizard. It was written umpteen years ago specifically to progress Sorcerer and Bard. Bloodrager and Arcanist were added many years later after DD was written, and then Paizo specifically FAQ'ed Bloodragers to allow DD levels to progress Blood of Dragons. They did not include Arcanists in this FAQ, and it's because Arcanists are prepared casters like Wizards, and it's because they do not qualify for the prerequisites of DD.
So if you allow a Blood Arcanist to become a DD, I think that's pretty cool, I'd even allow it at my table. But this is not RAW, it's homebrew.
Honestly, if what you were saying is true, then Sorc1/Witch4/DD10--->WitchX builds would be a thing, and they're not.
Honestly, if what you were saying is true, then Sorc1/Witch4/DD10--->WitchX builds would be a thing, and they're not.i would argue the reason you don’t see that build is that it would be incredibly awful.
Just because you don’t see Wiz 1/Witch 1/Sorc 1/Arc 1/Bard 1/etc builds all over the place doesn’t mean there must be a rule against them.
I can think of 1,000 things I'd like to do with a Sorc1/Witch4/DD10 ---> WitchX with the Prehensile Hair Hex, Combat Reflexes, and near-Full Witch Spell progression.
Dragon Disciple only progresses spellcasting and bloodline, not other class features. That's why you don't tend to see witch DD.
|
Dragon Disciple does not progress Wizard. It was written umpteen years ago specifically to progress Sorcerer and Bard. Bloodrager and Arcanist were added many years later after DD was written, and then Paizo specifically FAQ'ed Bloodragers to allow DD levels to progress Blood of Dragons. They did not include Arcanists in this FAQ, and it's because Arcanists are prepared casters like Wizards, and it's because they do not qualify for the prerequisites of DD.
Question:
If you are a Wizard 5/Cleric 2, and meet all the prerequisites for the Loremaster prestige class, can you choose to advance your cleric spellcasting levels? Even though you can only cast 3rd level divination spells as a wizard, not a cleric?
I *think* the Spell Specialist or White Mage archetype would work, since they do let the arcanist cast some spells without preparation. But neither stacks with the Blood Arcanist archetype, if he's looking at that.
As Sheepish Eidolon says, a one-level dip is probably the best solution overall.
Interestingly... if spell specialist or white mage qualify, then you could take bloodline development and skip the sorcerer levels entirely... once you get your first level of dragon disciple the secondary effect of bloodline development would kick in and jump from a 1st level bloodline with temporary boosts to a straight 6th level bloodline. Since at that point you would have a bloodline from another bloodline granting class.
Dragon Disciple does not progress Wizard. It was written umpteen years ago specifically to progress Sorcerer and Bard. Bloodrager and Arcanist were added many years later after DD was written, and then Paizo specifically FAQ'ed Bloodragers to allow DD levels to progress Blood of Dragons. They did not include Arcanists in this FAQ, and it's because Arcanists are prepared casters like Wizards, and it's because they do not qualify for the prerequisites of DD.Question:
If you are a Wizard 5/Cleric 2, and meet all the prerequisites for the Loremaster prestige class, can you choose to advance your cleric spellcasting levels? Even though you can only cast 3rd level divination spells as a wizard, not a cleric?
All clerics know Divination spells at level 1, so yes.
Btw, I took a look around on google. Between past Paizo Rules Forum discussions, Reddit questions, and RPG Stack Exchange, it seems like there's two camps on this issue.
RAI - no, prepared casters are not progressed by Dragon Disciple
RAW - yes, prepared casters are progressed by Dragon Disciple
All clerics know Divination spells at level 1, so yes.Dragon Disciple does not progress Wizard. It was written umpteen years ago specifically to progress Sorcerer and Bard. Bloodrager and Arcanist were added many years later after DD was written, and then Paizo specifically FAQ'ed Bloodragers to allow DD levels to progress Blood of Dragons. They did not include Arcanists in this FAQ, and it's because Arcanists are prepared casters like Wizards, and it's because they do not qualify for the prerequisites of DD.Question:
If you are a Wizard 5/Cleric 2, and meet all the prerequisites for the Loremaster prestige class, can you choose to advance your cleric spellcasting levels? Even though you can only cast 3rd level divination spells as a wizard, not a cleric?
You’re contradicting yourself now... earlier you said you must meet all prerequisite in the class to be advanced by the prestige class... but in the above example only the wizard levels meet all the prerequisites, cleric 2 cannot cast 3rd level divination spells.
Dragon Disciple does not progress Wizard. It was written umpteen years ago specifically to progress Sorcerer and Bard. Bloodrager and Arcanist were added many years later after DD was written, and then Paizo specifically FAQ'ed Bloodragers to allow DD levels to progress Blood of Dragons. They did not include Arcanists in this FAQ, and it's because Arcanists are prepared casters like Wizards, and it's because they do not qualify for the prerequisites of DD.Question:
If you are a Wizard 5/Cleric 2, and meet all the prerequisites for the Loremaster prestige class, can you choose to advance your cleric spellcasting levels? Even though you can only cast 3rd level divination spells as a wizard, not a cleric?
Yes, the requirements and the benefits don't have any link between them. For loremaster you only need the skills, feats, and the seven divination spells. The caster advancement requires you pick one caster class. You're no more forced to pick the class with the divination spells than you are required to pick the class that provided the feats.
Spell Specialist certainly qualifies.Interestingly... if spell specialist or white mage qualify, then you could take bloodline development and skip the sorcerer levels entirely... once you get your first level of dragon disciple the secondary effect of bloodline development would kick in and jump from a 1st level bloodline with temporary boosts to a straight 6th level bloodline. Since at that point you would have a bloodline from another bloodline granting class.I *think* the Spell Specialist or White Mage archetype would work, since they do let the arcanist cast some spells without preparation. But neither stacks with the Blood Arcanist archetype, if he's looking at that.
As Sheepish Eidolon says, a one-level dip is probably the best solution overall.
The spell specialist can cast this spell without preparing it, in the same way a sorcerer casts spells spontaneously.
How that interacts with bloodline development and DD is up for debate.
If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline... This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level.
If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained.
So, does the DD gain a bloodline or just bloodline powers? DD explicitly doesn't grant spells known in this case, but it's silent about bonus feats. What about Arcana?
You’re contradicting yourself now... earlier you said you must meet all prerequisite in the class to be advanced by the prestige class... but in the above example only the wizard levels meet all the prerequisites, cleric 2 cannot cast 3rd level divination spells.All clerics know Divination spells at level 1, so yes.Dragon Disciple does not progress Wizard. It was written umpteen years ago specifically to progress Sorcerer and Bard. Bloodrager and Arcanist were added many years later after DD was written, and then Paizo specifically FAQ'ed Bloodragers to allow DD levels to progress Blood of Dragons. They did not include Arcanists in this FAQ, and it's because Arcanists are prepared casters like Wizards, and it's because they do not qualify for the prerequisites of DD.Question:
If you are a Wizard 5/Cleric 2, and meet all the prerequisites for the Loremaster prestige class, can you choose to advance your cleric spellcasting levels? Even though you can only cast 3rd level divination spells as a wizard, not a cleric?
RAI it's meant to progress Cleric.
A better example of this would be Wizard5/Cleric2/Psion1. If you took Loremaster, would you then be able to progress Psion even though Psions cannot cast any divination spells? I'd say RAW yes, RAI no.
Personally, I see the DD PrC equally as unintended from prepared caster progression as Psions would be unintended from Loremaster PrC progression. I think with a strictly RAW reading of how PrC's work, then it's kosher, but I don't believe this was the intention.
Bloodragers and Arcanists were released in this book in September 2014 and this FAQ -----v
Dragon Disciple and Bloodrager: The dragon disciple’s blood of dragons ability increases draconic sorcerer bloodline powers. What about draconic bloodragers?Yes, dragon disciple's blood of dragons ability should also increase draconic bloodragers’ bloodline powers.
was released in July 2015.
I think if Blood Arcanists were able to progress both Bloodline powers and Prepared Spellcasting, this would've been addressed in this FAQ. And since it's not, it's not RAI nor RAW.
So I still hold that if you go Sorc1/BloodArc4/DD10, and if you choose Sorc, your DD10 would progress your Sorc Bloodline and Spells, but if you choose your DD10 to progress BloodArc, it would not progress Bloodline for Arcanist-- but, RAW it would progress Arc Spells, but I don't think this was intended either.
Because here's the goofy thing that can happen: let's say you pick Sorc1(Red Draconic) and then go Blood Arcanist 4 (Orc), does your Dragon Disciple progress your Blood Arcanist Orc Bloodline because you've satisfied the prerequisites for Draconic Bloodline w/ Sorc1(Draconic)? I certainly hope you say no to this. And if you say no, then does your Blood Arcanist have to have a Draconic Bloodline to progress DD10 because that's the Intention of the PrC?
So I think it does make a little sense that the Base Class that you're progressing must meet the prereq's and intentions of the PrC. Because if you're the GM, and you let me as a PC go Sorc(Draconic)1/BloodArc4(Orc)/DD10 and my DD10 levels have progressed my Orc Bloodline to lvl 14 and my Draconic Bloodline remains at 1, I think that's a little goofy, wouldn't you agree?
Either way, if you're going to let DD10 progress BloodArc in both Bloodline and Spell progression, this is homebrew (because FAQ linked above). I personally think it's pretty cool, and would allow it at my table, .
|
interesting.. I'm more of a permissive GM, in that I am usually on board with bending RAW/rules in favor of something a Player wants to do. In this case, I think that I'll rule he can, as long as he at least picks up the bloodline exploit or the archetype.
As to the point if the DD advances prepared casters, there is a specific FAQ-
"Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?
No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook."
IDK how official srd FAQs are, but this seems to warrant prepared caster progression.
Would you allow the arcanist to qualify for the dragon disciple PrC?
Yes. Provided that they have they have a dragon bloodline (whether through Blood Arcanist or the Bloodline Development exploit). They are already a hybrid caster (prepared spell list but spontaneous casting of said spells). That is close enough in my book.
As for the Dragon Disciple progressing prepared caster classes... Honestly, I'd tell the player that whatever class you used to qualify for the spellcasting requirement of the prestige class is the class that is getting boosted.
I'm one of those permissive GM's that usually answers "Yes, but..." to questions that are not ridiculous at face value. We fail forward at my gaming table.
For those who say you'd allow an arcanist to qualify only if they had an archetype or exploit granting a bloodline: would you also ban a bard, skald or summoner from taking the class? Clearly any character with a bloodline must have draconic, but why are you saying they must have a bloodline?
I'm all for Rule of Cool too, and that's why I would also allow this. But, I think it's also important to make the distinction that this is homebrew. Don't expect this to fly in the Rules Forum or at every table as if this is RAW/RAI kosher though.
Dragon Disciple advances two things from other classes: spellcasting and bloodline powers/spells.
The Spells feature says the following: "At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day." It makes no mention of whether the arcane class being advanced is the spontaneous spellcasting class that you used to qualify for this prestige class or some other arcane casting class. This issue doesn't come up very much because most players I know do not like to lose caster levels by taking levels in more than one spellcasting class.
The Blood of Dragons feature says the following: "A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level."
For the powers, most classes with bloodlines (with the distinct exception of the bloodrager) have an effective sorcerer level based on their class level, so you should be able to advance your bloodline powers for just about any class with your Dragon Disciple levels. But if for some reason you are taking levels in more than one bloodline class before becoming a Dragon Disciple, you would need to check whether their levels stack with each other (as they don't unless the class rules say that they do).
For the bonus spells, it looks like only an actual sorcerer would get those.
In any case, there is no one superior Dragon Disciple build, as every possible combination requires you to give up something in exchange for other benefits.
So for the PC described at the start of this thread: He cannot qualify for Dragon Disciple with Arcanist levels, but he could advance abilities from that class with his Dragon Disciple levels. So, for example, a Bard 1/Arcanist 4/Dragon Disciple 10 might cast spells as an 11th level Arcanist (although any spells gained after Arcanist level 4 would not be "free" additions to his spellbook) and the Draconic bloodline powers of a 14th level Sorcerer. He would have no exploits (as his 1st and 3rd level exploits were both replaced by bloodline powers) and no bonus spells (as he has no levels in a class that grants sorcerer bloodline bonus spells).
FWIW, in the PC game Pathfinder: Kingmaker by Paizo, only Eldritch Scion (Magus), Bloodrager, and Sorcerer can have Dragon Disciple PrC increase spell progression. In that game, having Spontaneous Spellcasting AND a Bloodline is required.
That is a nice houserule for a video game.
That is a nice houserule for a video game.
Well, considering the depth and breadth that Paizo's developers delved into their Character Creation process in the Pathfinder: Kingmaker PC game (to say that it's vast is an understatement, if you haven't played it), I'd say that this was Paizo's intent all along, and they have crappy bookwriters to elucidate these intentions. They had every opportunity of making Dragon Disciple apply to prepared casters in this game and then purposefully didn't let it.
Oh, I'm not advocating for anything for prepared casters. But bard, skald and summoner are valid for qualifying for DD, as written with no funny business.
For those who say you'd allow an arcanist to qualify only if they had an archetype or exploit granting a bloodline: would you also ban a bard, skald or summoner from taking the class? Clearly any character with a bloodline must have draconic, but why are you saying they must have a bloodline?
No, I wouldn't ban other spontaneous casters from taking Dragon Disciple without having a bloodline. It is merely the unique niche between prepared and spontaneous that the Arcanist occupies that would prompt me to require them to have a bloodline, and for that bloodline to specifically be the Draconic bloodline. The Arcanist is a hybrid of the wizard and sorcerer, and a sorcerer must possess the Draconic bloodline to take the prestige class.
When exceptions are made, one should expect that exception to apply no further than the matter being discussed. To do otherwise is to unnecessarily create a universal problem out of a general one. We are changing the rules for one thing, not everything else. We don't want to imply that the Arcanist is being treated unfairly. They are already being given an opportunity they would normally never be given.
Okay, I can follow that reasoning.
The DD has rules specifically for those not already possessing a bloodline. So, I'm not sure why it's a question if non-sorcerer spontaneous casters can choose DD.
As the title says. If a player wanted to take levels of the dragon disciple prestige class with only arcanist levels. Would you let them?
Would them being the archetype that gives a bloodline effect your decision at all?
Is it legal RAW?
By RAW, no. Let's look at the DD's requirements:
"Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline."
Arcanists prepare spells. Therefore, arcanists do not qualify (though the question remains open for archetypes that have *some* spontaneous spells, such as White Mage.)
Yes for a blood arcanist. Otherwise would require a 1 level dip. By RAW a blood arcanist couldn't but I see no balance issue in allowing. The sorcerer dip works by RAW and a losing a full CL really hurts. Also your no longer growing your pool and losing access to greater exploits. Your trading a lot for a fun but at best only decent gish package
Dragon Disciple, like most prestige classes, is a downgrade in power... it is a flavor choice to round out a concept or image you have for a character... at best, it makes up for the weaknesses they dumped on Kobolds...
Anyone looking to build a martial, even a martial with spells, could do A LOT better without ever touching Dragon Disciple.
Dragon Disciple, like most prestige classes, is a downgrade in power... it is a flavor choice to round out a concept or image you have for a character... at best, it makes up for the weaknesses they dumped on Kobolds...
Anyone looking to build a martial, even a martial with spells, could do A LOT better without ever touching Dragon Disciple.
Whether you can do better or not is not in question here. Traditional builds for nearly ever concept out there can be done better... that has always been a terrible argument against anything and everything. Rogues can be done better by alchemists, investigators, slayers, swashbucklers, occultists, and even bards... does that mean no one should ever play a rogue?
|
|
Dragon Disciple, like most prestige classes, is a downgrade in power... it is a flavor choice to round out a concept or image you have for a character... at best, it makes up for the weaknesses they dumped on Kobolds...
Anyone looking to build a martial, even a martial with spells, could do A LOT better without ever touching Dragon Disciple.
I highly disagree. I have a couple DD builds that provide terrifying results.
By all means, play Rogues. Play Dragon Disciples. I love Dragon Disciple...
Kobold Warpriest Dragon Disciples with Deinonychus mounts, and Kobold Druid Dragon Disciples with Deinonychus companions, and Kobold Paladin Dragon Disciples with Hippocampus mounts...
I always prefer flavor over minmax BS. Dastis was warning that, at best, you will get a "decent" gish package... and I was simply saying that a gish package shouldn't be the goal if you are dabbling in Dragon Disciple.
Even with a Scaled Fist UnMonk 10 gestalt with 10 levels of Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer, taking all 10 levels of Dragon Disciple... still don't view that as a gish package. I view it as a fun dragon build, capable of doing some fun dragon stuff... but I would still avoid melee if at all possible with it... like a dragon.