Would you allow the arcanist to qualify for the dragon disciple PrC?


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Silver Crusade

by all means avoid melee combat, you are still great in it.

fairly simple level 13 martial DDisciple::

25 pt buy-

Assimar (angel-born) +2str/cha
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 08
Cha: 15

End results(DD and level boosts):
Str: 22 (26)
Dex: 14 (18)
Con: 16 (20)
Int: 10
Wis: 08
Cha: 18 (24)

1 unmonk (scaled fist)
2 Paladin/anti paladin
2 Draconic Sorcerer
DD 8

Feats:
1- Dragon Style, Dodge
3- Weapon focus (unarmed)
5- Dragon Ferocity
7- Power attack(bloodline), Craft Wondrous Items
9- "free" (Iron will)
10- Improved Initiative
11- "free"
13- Great Fortitude

Traits: Magical Knack, Indomitable Faith

Gear- Assuming 70k (about 50%) of funds apply for Craft Wondrous
Headband of Charisma (+6) 36 (18k)
Belt of Physical Perfection (+4) (32k)
Cloak of resistance (3) 9k
Ring of Protection (3) 18k
Monk's robes 13k
Amulet of might Fists (3) 32k

which leaves 18k for misc gear/consumables. And thats only "Crafting" two of your items. Which is keeping on the lower end of what is most likely.

your caster level is on the lower end,(10 after magical Knack) but thats fine because you are mostly casting buff spells on yourself. You have 4th level spells.

1st level spells-
Magic missile
Mage armor
Shield
Enlarge person
Infernal Healing/celestial healing
Free

2nd level-
Mirror Image
Rope Trick
Free (see invisibility isn't bad if you will be fighting fey/devils etc)
Resist Energy

3rd level
Heroism( If the party has this covered, haste and or wind wall are good options)
Fireball or Displacement (displacement increases martial strength, Fireball gives you versatility in combat somewhat)
Fly

4th-
Greater Invisibility/Greater False life for combat focused, Stone shape for utility (I'd suggest stone shape, pick up combat ones later)

What this ends up giving-
Defense:
HP: 151 [3d10+2d6+8d12] without making use of FCBs
AC: 36 (40 with shield up)[10+4armor+4dex+6NA+3Defelction+7Cha+1monk+1Dodge]
Saves:
Fort:+26 [9base+5con+3res+7Cha+2feat]
Ref:+19 [5base+4dex+3res+7Cha]
Will:+23 [10base-1wis+3res+7cha+1trait+2feat]

Offense:
BaB: +11/+6
Move: 40ft

Unarmed Strike: +23/23/18/13 [11 BaB+8Str+3magic+1feat)
Damage: 1d8+15

Unarmed Strike(PA): +20/20/15/10 [11 BaB+8Str+3magic+1feat-3PA)
Damage: 1d8+24

Natural Attacks(10r/day): (if using power attack)
Bite: +17(+14)
Damage: 1d8+11(14)+1d6 fire (or whatever dragon color you went with)

Claws: +17(+14)
1d6+8(11)

Not to mention you can FotD I 1/day, blind sense, 1/day +7 to hit/AC vs evil enemy, and Very minor healing. without buffs (herosim adding +2 to to hit/saves, haste +1 to hit/AC etc)

you could also focus completely on utility spells instead of the more minor buff ones and just grab wands/scrolls if you wanted.


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VoodistMonk wrote:

Dragon Disciple, like most prestige classes, is a downgrade in power... it is a flavor choice to round out a concept or image you have for a character... at best, it makes up for the weaknesses they dumped on Kobolds...

Anyone looking to build a martial, even a martial with spells, could do A LOT better without ever touching Dragon Disciple.

It all depends on exactly what you are trying to do, as this prestige class can be taken by a wide variety of character types. Starting out as a Bloodrager is one of the most interesting ways to go and is more of a sideways move than a backwards move in terms of power.


@rorek55,
That'a not bad... no reach or range... pretty locked in on alignment possibilities... doesn't appear to offer a whole lot for than a source of damage... you did say martial, though.

I would probably still use something like Arcane Duelist Bard, though. Good old Half-Orc with Shaman's Apprentice and Sacred Tattoos/Fate's Favored. Longspear/Banner of Ancient Kings/Flagbearer, Combat Reflexes/Bodyguard/Gloves of Arcane Striking, Weapon Focus/Weapon Trick... might not be quite as potent in melee, but offers a lot more to the party, overall.

@david,
Bloodrager/Eldritch Scion Magus is solid, plays pretty much the same with or without the prestige class.

Clerics/Oracles can be decent with Racial Heritage Kobold and Scaled Disciple.

Silver Crusade

fair, when I say "martial" I define someone highly proficient at combat. Support is a back burner. That said, your idea is interesting. And the above build has 3 or 4 feats you can change in and out.

1- enlarge person (if you take scion of humanity) for reach you can even throw on long arm. You have 5 or 6 1st level spells to pick from. Herosim can be cast on party members, and at level 10ish you have enough casts to do so and retain a couple spells for later. In other words, if you were going through a dungeon/knew you were heading to a fight, long arm/enlarge gives you a 15ft reach, you could also wield any reach weapon you want thanks to paladin levels. (A good idea to carry one I suppose) Arcane strike can also be picked up in the above build for +3 damage. Since the builds swift actions are mostly free.

Nothing says you have to focus on defensive combat spells, you can decide that, aside from maybe a key few (mostly 1st level) spells, to go full into utility spells/party support spells. Most of your martial power doesn't come from spells anyway until later.

Eldritch Scion magus is a great class to go into DD with as well.


David knott 242 wrote:
VoodistMonk wrote:

Dragon Disciple, like most prestige classes, is a downgrade in power... it is a flavor choice to round out a concept or image you have for a character... at best, it makes up for the weaknesses they dumped on Kobolds...

Anyone looking to build a martial, even a martial with spells, could do A LOT better without ever touching Dragon Disciple.

It all depends on exactly what you are trying to do, as this prestige class can be taken by a wide variety of character types. Starting out as a Bloodrager is one of the most interesting ways to go and is more of a sideways move than a backwards move in terms of power.

With the prestigious spellcaster feat, DD becomes pretty attractive. A "martial" wouldn't be my first thought, but being a full caster with better hp and saves is pretty tempting.


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Even without Prestigious Spellcaster, skald (possibly spell warrior for Enhance Weapons; very versatile and useful even at higher level for the +1/"+1 equivalent" to all allies' weapons within 60 ft) 2/arcanist 4/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10 isn't bad. BAB +16 and spell progression as an arcanist 16; plus spell progression as a skald 2 (including access to sift, cure light wounds, etc.), Bardic Knowledge, and Versatile Performance (two skills for the "price" of one, although as an Int-based caster this is less of an issue).

IMO, taking more than four levels in dragon disciple is kind of meh; especially if the character is focused around melee combat. Four levels of DD grants +3 to BAB and +4 to Str; effectively +5 total melee attack bonus for four character levels. Five to eight DD levels grants +3 to +6 to BAB and still only +4 to Str; effectively +5 to +8 total melee attack bonus. Nine or ten DD levels grants +6 or +7 to BAB and still only +4 to Str; effectively +8 to + 9 total melee attack bonus. Going dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10 (or bloodrager 5/dragon disciple 4/bloodrager +X), on the other hand, the total melee attack bonus is +1 above the character levels in question.


There are lots and lots of different ways to effectively use Dragon Disciple... just depends what flavor you are looking for.

As for granting an Arcanist access flat out. No. They cannot cast spells without preparation.

The answer is no, sadly. Although, at my table, I would allow an Arcanist focused on really playing up the Draconic Bloodline BS access... because they are making a choice to obviously reduce their power for flavor... so I am willing to bend/break a lot more rules to give you something fun.

In my Kingmaker campaign, a Druid had a Roc companion named Dwayne "the Roc" Johnson... the Druid retrained his character due to unforseen complications, and became a Synthesist Summoner... leaving poor Dwayne "the Roc" Johnson with no master and no way to progress in "level"...

Dwayne remained loyal to the party, though. Much like the party's flying carpet, anyone in the party could command Dwayne... the Slayer/Warpriest often used him as a mount to get into position, sometimes jumping off at significant heights to come crashing out of the sky...

Anyways, to reward Dwayne's loyalty, I allowed the Slayer to have barding made from the hide of a Wyvern... and gave Dwayne "the Roc" Johnson a 5D6 breath weapon to use every 1D4rnds... why? To try keep him relevant, and because it was fun.

And by "reward Dwayne's loyalty", I mean reward the players' creativity for still trying to use the old Animal Companion, even without the Druid, and even though it would never get any stronger or smarter. They dragged it along into the very last levels of the campaign, and spent a pretty decent sum on equipping it to survive.

So, yeah, rules can be bent/broken to help a player(s) have more fun making a flavorful character(s)... and a hybrid class that's half Sorcerer going straight into a prestige class meant for Sorcerers is not that far of stretch...


Just for fun, here's that Scaled Fist Sorcerer gestalt entry I mentioned earlier...

Obviously the whole Half-Orc/Shaman's Apprentice/Sacred Tattoos/Fate's Favored business...

This is what I imagine a dragon in "human form" to be...

Scaled Fist UnMonk 10/
Draconic Sorcerer 10/
Dragon Disciple 10

Skills ((4+Int) X 10) + ((2+Int) X 10)

1. AC Bonus
1. Unarmed Strike 1D6
1. Flurry of Blows
1. Cantrips
1. Spells (Sorcerer)
1. Bloodline
... Draconic
1. Bloodline Power
... Claws 1D4
1(class): Improved Unarmed Strike
1(class): Stunning Fist
1(class): Eschew Materials
1(level):

2. Evasion
2(class):

3. Fast Movement +10'
3. Ki Pool
3. Ki Strike (magic)
3. Bloodline Power
... Dragon Resistance 5/+1
3. Bloodline Spell
... mage armor
3(level):

4. AC Bonus +1
4. Unarmed Strike 1D8
4. Draconic Mettle +2
4. Draconic Fury +1D6

5. Purity of Body
5. Style Strike 1/rnd
5. Bloodline Power
... Claws (magic)
5. Bloodline Spell
... resist energy
5(level):

6. Fast Movement +20'
6. Ki Power
...
6(class):

7. Ki Strike (cold iron and silver)
7. Bloodline Power
... Claws 1D6
7. Bloodline Spell
... fly
7(bloodline):
7(level):

8. AC Bonus +2
8. Unarmed Strike 1D10
8. Ki Power
... Abundant Step

9. Fast Movement +30'
9. Improved Evasion
9. Style Strike
...
9. Bloodline Power
... Dragon Resistance 10/+2
... Breath Weapon 1/day
9. Bloodline Spell
... fear
9(level): Dimensional Agility

10. Ki Strike (lawful)
10. Ki Power
...
10(class):

11/1. Blood of Dragons
... Claws +1D6 energy
... spell resistance
11/1. Natural Armor Increase +1
11/1(level): Dimensional Assault

12/2. Ability Boost: +2 Str
12/2. Dragon Bite 1D6
12/2(bloodline):

13/3. Blood of Dragons
... form of the dragon I
13/3. Breath Weapon 2/day
13/3(level): Dimensional Dervish

14/4. Ability Boost: +2 Str
14/4. Natural Armor Increase +2

15/5. Blood of the Dragon
... Dragon Resistance 10/+4
... Wings (60', average)
15/5. Blindsense 30'
15/5(bloodline):
15/5(level): Dimensional Savant

16/6. Ability Boost: +2 Con

17/7. Blood of the Dragon
... Breath Weapon 3/day
... form of the dragon II
17/7. Natural Armor Increase +3
17/7. Dragon Form 1/day
17/7(level):

18/8. Ability Boost: +2 Int
18/8(bloodline):

19/9. Wings (90', average)
19/9(level):

20/10. Blood of the Dragon
... Breath Weapon 4/day
... Power of Wyrms
... form of the dragon III
20/10. Dragon Form 2/day

At 20:
BAB +17
Base Saves +12/+10/+12
CL 17, 8th level spells


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Because here's the goofy thing that can happen: let's say you pick Sorc1(Red Draconic) and then go Blood Arcanist 4 (Orc), does your Dragon Disciple progress your Blood Arcanist Orc Bloodline because you've satisfied the prerequisites for Draconic Bloodline w/ Sorc1(Draconic)? I certainly hope you say no to this. And if you say no, then does your Blood Arcanist have to have a Draconic Bloodline to progress DD10 because that's the Intention of the PrC?

I bolded the relevant section of this quote. I have no dog in this fight and was attracted here by the arcanist mention. Arcanists that select the Bloodline exploit and have another source of a Bloodline must mach the Bloodlines. It is in the description:

Bloodline Exploit wrote:
If the arcanist already has a bloodline (or gains one later), taking this exploit instead allows her arcanist levels to stack with the levels of the class that granted her access to the bloodline when determining the powers and abilities of her bloodline.

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