What do you hope to see changed in 2e Tian Xia?

[keftiu]

I /adore/ the changes to the Mwangi Expanse in the new edition, it has me wondering: what needs overhauling in the inevitable return to Tian Xia! I’d be curious to see what a more critical look at Amanandar, military colonial outpost really lives like.

[vagrant-poet]

Bachuan and Amanandar make my skin crawl a bit.

I don't think they usually ret-con things, so much as resolve them quietly and move on, so I'd love to see Amanandar become Kamikobu again, and have it's own interesting stories to tell.

And Bachuan either written by someone with a concept of nuance (a lot of the first go at Dragon Empires probably needs that), or just also re-written.
At the moment it's written like it's Red Scare propaganda.
I think it's possibly the only place in Golarion described as communist, and includes lines like "dream of spreading the secular gospel of communism to every corner of Tian Xia". Which gives me the creeps from an American company, in many of the ways that Andoran makes me squint with a half-formed uncomfortable feeling but it's much more obvious here.

Just generally, do what was done for the Mwangi Expanse and hire writers from diaspora communities of the areas that inspired the various pastiche nations of Tian Xia. It won't be perfect, but I bet it'll be a lot better and less alarm-bell-ey.

[CorvusMask]

I do think yeah Dragon Empires book could have used more writers with cultural background.

There was bit too much of "ninjas and samurai everywhere!". I mean yeah I get the idea was that just like with Avistan the countries are mix of different nations, but Japanese influences were most obvious ones visually <_<

[Deserk]

CorvusMask wrote:

I do think yeah Dragon Empires book could have used more writers with cultural background.

There was bit too much of "ninjas and samurai everywhere!". I mean yeah I get the idea was that just like with Avistan the countries are mix of different nations, but Japanese influences were most obvious ones visually <_<

Agreed. I would have liked more focus on the non-Japanese cultures.

One thing I do really like about Tian-Xia though is that there is a good mix of non-human ruled nations, which I really wish was there was more of in the Inner Sea (I guess we got a little bit of that with the addition of Oprak).

And yeah I do dislike Bachuan as well. I really don't like it when Paizo goes way beyond the Late Medieval Period and puts in fashion, technology and ideologies from the 18-20th centuries. It's jarring and makes the setting look incoherent.

[CorvusMask]

I feel need to nitpick that Pathfinder setting is clearly renaissance than any medieval period at earliest <_<

[Deserk]

Late Medieval Period (1250-1500) encompasses the early phase of the Renaissance.

[Darth Game Master]

vagrant-poet wrote:

Bachuan and Amanandar make my skin crawl a bit.

I don't think they usually ret-con things, so much as resolve them quietly and move on, so I'd love to see Amanandar become Kamikobu again, and have it's own interesting stories to tell.

And Bachuan either written by someone with a concept of nuance (a lot of the first go at Dragon Empires probably needs that), or just also re-written.
At the moment it's written like it's Red Scare propaganda.
I think it's possibly the only place in Golarion described as communist, and includes lines like "dream of spreading the secular gospel of communism to every corner of Tian Xia". Which gives me the creeps from an American company, in many of the ways that Andoran makes me squint with a half-formed uncomfortable feeling but it's much more obvious here.

Just generally, do what was done for the Mwangi Expanse and hire writers from diaspora communities of the areas that inspired the various pastiche nations of Tian Xia. It won't be perfect, but I bet it'll be a lot better and less alarm-bell-ey.

All of this. Bachuan and Amanandar both need a lot of work, especially the latter. I doubt the Taldans would've had the numbers to take it on their own, perhaps they have a military largely made up of local people that stages a revolt. Or maybe Wanshou gives them some trouble and the Taldans fail to stop the kraken's allies, but local people succeed in defending against it and form a new country.

[ekaczmarek]

While I am unaware of anything about Tian Xia specifically, I'd like for them to take the opportunity to really expand on the Oni creature type.

[David knott 242]

Amanandar does serve a useful function as a place where people from Tian Xia could plausibly learn the Taldan (Avistan common) language. That function can be preserved if the Taldans there are deposed from power but not completely driven out. Sargava and the colonies of Cheliax and Andoran in Arcadia serve similar functions elsewhere.

Inner Sea locations that serve similar purposes in reverse include the Jade Quarter of the city of Kalsgard in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings (for the Tien and Minkaian languages) and Jalmeray (for Vudran) -- and the Jade Quarter provides a hint of how people from one part of the world can settle in another without conquering it.

One thing that might be useful would be if the Mwangi Expanse book revealed a secret Arcadian colony on the continent of Garund (and possibly namedrops another one in Avistan).

[keftiu]

David knott 242 wrote:

One thing that might be useful would be if the Mwangi Expanse book revealed a secret Arcadian colony on the continent of Garund (and possibly namedrops another one in Avistan).

Technically, one sort of exists; Senghor is primarily inhabited by Caldaru humans, who are from Arcadia, though I believe they crossed the sea so long ago their origins are barely remembered.

The wiki also has a stub article on a Vudran colony in Garund.

[The Raven Black]

I would love Amanandar to have evolved in a mixed culture place, nominally Taldan but where locals have been able to reach positions of power through merit, rather than violent revolt. A place that is based on cooperation rather than oppression. That would make for a nice change IMO.

[David knott 242]

The Raven Black wrote:

I would love Amanandar to have evolved in a mixed culture place, nominally Taldan but where locals have been able to reach positions of power through merit, rather than violent revolt. A place that is based on cooperation rather than oppression. That would make for a nice change IMO.

One advantage we have here is that Amanandar has not been described in detail, so it is has not been definitively established that the Taldan colonists have oppressed the locals in any way.

In my own campaign, I suggested that the capital city of Minkai had a "Taldan-town" district where my PC worked as a waitress. That little bit of backstory established how, when she was teleported to Avistan at the beginning of the campaign, she arrived already knowing the local Common language (as I really couldn't justify having her travel all the way to Amanandar for that purpose).

[Darth Game Master]

The Raven Black wrote:

I would love Amanandar to have evolved in a mixed culture place, nominally Taldan but where locals have been able to reach positions of power through merit, rather than violent revolt. A place that is based on cooperation rather than oppression. That would make for a nice change IMO.

Not a bad idea, but I think that would best work as a straight up retcon honestly. One idea I've had for my own games was saying that the Taldans actually cooperated with a faction of the warlords in Kamikobu and that over time, as they spent more time in the area and intermarried with local people, the cultures blended (plus, they'd likely have to adopt some cultural elements anyway just to adapt to their new surroundings, cuisine for example). There are examples throughout history of conquerors becoming culturally integrated with the places they rule over time so it's not too far fetched IMI.

Doing it with the backstory as it is now is a little more tricky since if Amanandar decided to become more cooperative and equal, people descended from the Taldans would still have the advantage after ruling for a century.

David knott 242 wrote:

One advantage we have here is that Amanandar has not been described in detail, so it is has not been definitively established that the Taldan colonists have oppressed the locals in any way.

Yeah, this helps too. A lot easier to reframe and reinterpret certain implied aspects when not a lot of information has been provided.

[keftiu]

Worth sharing here, as I didn’t know: the second volume of the Ruby Phoenix AP will have a gazetteer of Goka!

[Darth Game Master]

Darth Game Master wrote:

There are examples throughout history of conquerors becoming culturally integrated with the places they ruled over time so it's not too far fetched IMI.

Dang it, I just noticed this typo after 2 weeks, too late to edit. I meant to type "IMO", as in "in my opinion", not IMI.

[Amber_Stewart]

I always viewed Communist-killing-fields-nightmare-Bachuan as very similar in tone to literal-devil-worshiping-Cheliax, in terms of 'they make great villains whose oppressive rulers have zero sympathy from the PCs'.

But yes, any revisit of Tian-Xia in PF2e IMO needs people well educated in and from the real world cultures that inspired the content (and I say this as someone who contributed to the PF1 book, though I contributed almost entirely to non-human nations fwiw)

[Dr A Gon]

vagrant-poet wrote:

Bachuan

Just generally, do what was done for the Mwangi Expanse and hire writers from diaspora communities of the areas that inspired the various pastiche nations of Tian Xia. It won't be perfect, but I bet it'll be a lot better and less alarm-bell-ey.

2E Mwangi so far has been decent and it leads me to think they can fix Tianxia, at least for the intersection of people with Asian heritages and who are sympathetic to western views.

I didn't know Pathfinder had a Bachuan. Real place in the PRC, part of a city that had a big role in the communist revolution. Probably not intentional. Due to the way the language works, it's easy to accidentally invent a name that's actually a name.

[KaiBlob1]

I don't know anything about Amanandar besides what is said on the pathfinder wiki, so it could be more problematic than I've understood, but I don't think the existence of colonies is necessarily a bad thing so long as those colonies aren't presented as "saviors" or "civilizers" or the good guys in the region. It makes the setting feel more realistic, and it makes sense as something Taldor would do.

EDIT for clarification, when I say "the existence of colonies isnt bad" I mean that from an outside perspective looking at the world. Obviously in-universe they are a bad thing.

[vagrant-poet]

KaiBlob1 wrote:

I don't know anything about Amanandar besides what is said on the pathfinder wiki, so it could be more problematic than I've understood, but I don't think the existence of colonies is necessarily a bad thing so long as those colonies aren't presented as "saviors" or "civilizers" or the good guys in the region. It makes the setting feel more realistic, and it makes sense as something Taldor would do.

EDIT for clarification, when I say "the existence of colonies isnt bad" I mean that from an outside perspective looking at the world. Obviously in-universe they are a bad thing.

I understand what you're saying.

Colonial nations and areas as pretty much universally villainous foes to be rebelled against and defeated, is a kind of story I'm interested in.

Amanandar as written is both very white savior, and seems written to let you play as Taldan characters if Tian Xia is "too Asian" for a player. I can vaguely understand how that conversation arises, but I think a more self-aware team with Asian writers and decision makers would realize that that's not really a great statement to make, and if people want to play Avistani people that is just as valid as Tian characters in Avistan, without a justification-nation.

I haven't read it in quite some time, but I can't remember a single particularly compelling thing about Amanandar, just the above two things.

[CorvusMask]

To be fair, most Tian Xia nations have similar "they aren't fleshed out so they are bit boring" problemo, though Amanandar does stand out in that respect especially in "You could wipe it out in same way as Lastwall and it still wouldn't shake local politics up much" factor.

There aren't really strong reasons for locals to overthrow them as of the moment, but its definitely "if any nation in tian xia could be dramatically be destroyed or conquered for sake of threat, it'd be this one" out of any of them :p At least someone misses Last Wall, dunno if anybody would care about Amanandar being lost "Oh we lost tinier sized Taldor in Tian xia, what a big loss"

(note that Lastwall was destroyed because its kinda necessary as part of the "TB gets released" plot to demonstrate his threat, so while I'm popping up Lastwall -> Gravelands example here, I think Lastwall was much more interesting nation and had good story reason to get destroyed, meanwhile Amanandar kinda begs to be replaced with something more interesting presuming that writers don't have ideas how to make it interesting)

[KaiBlob1]

vagrant-poet wrote:

KaiBlob1 wrote:

I don't know anything about Amanandar besides what is said on the pathfinder wiki, so it could be more problematic than I've understood, but I don't think the existence of colonies is necessarily a bad thing so long as those colonies aren't presented as "saviors" or "civilizers" or the good guys in the region. It makes the setting feel more realistic, and it makes sense as something Taldor would do.

EDIT for clarification, when I say "the existence of colonies isnt bad" I mean that from an outside perspective looking at the world. Obviously in-universe they are a bad thing.

I understand what you're saying.

Colonial nations and areas as pretty much universally villainous foes to be rebelled against and defeated, is a kind of story I'm interested in.

Amanandar as written is both very white savior, and seems written to let you play as Taldan characters if Tian Xia is "too Asian" for a player. I can vaguely understand how that conversation arises, but I think a more self-aware team with Asian writers and decision makers would realize that that's not really a great statement to make, and if people want to play Avistani people that is just as valid as Tian characters in Avistan, without a justification-nation.

I haven't read it in quite some time, but I can't remember a single particularly compelling thing about Amanandar, just the above two things.

ah ok yeah in that case I completely agree

[mikeawmids]

More ninjas please!

[HenshinFanatic]

Honestly, can't think of much I would change, mostly because I came too late to Pathfinder to get the bulk of the material for the region that was made for 1E. I just generally want more fleshing out the way Mwangi Expanse got in its book. Oh, and can we finally get Vanara as a PC ancestry? Looking forward to being able to make a party of Human Cloistered Cleric of Irori, Vanara Fighter (with free archetype to Magus, and also picking up Martial Artist at least), Orc Boar-Beastkin Monk, and Iruxi/Grippli (can't decide which is a better fit) Ranger. :D

[Animism]

^ So, you'd be travelling from Tian Xia to Vudra, ne?
That ocean in between will be novel, at least! ;D

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

HenshinFanatic wrote:

Honestly, can't think of much I would change, mostly because I came too late to Pathfinder to get the bulk of the material for the region that was made for 1E. I just generally want more fleshing out the way Mwangi Expanse got in its book. Oh, and can we finally get Vanara as a PC ancestry? Looking forward to being able to make a party of Human Cloistered Cleric of Irori, Vanara Fighter (with free archetype to Magus, and also picking up Martial Artist at least), Orc Boar-Beastkin Monk, and Iruxi/Grippli (can't decide which is a better fit) Ranger. :D

I love your plans. I don't know what base ancestry for Sandy, but I feel like you could consider versatile Undine heritage as a solidly thematic option.

[keftiu]

How do folks feel about Jinin? “Elves traveled here from the other side of the world and were so impressed with human samurai that they decided to emulate them” has always been a really, really strange pitch to me - elves couldn’t come up with the idea of honor before they met Fantasy Asian folks?

Is there some nuance to it I’m unaware of, or are they really a nation of elven fanboys?

[The Raven Black]

I could see complete adherence to Bushido being the one thing that protects them from becoming CE Drows.

Something from outside because anything from within would be tainted and/or swept aside by the Drow corruption.

Mere musings on my part though.

[SOLDIER-1st]

keftiu wrote:

How do folks feel about Jinin? “Elves traveled here from the other side of the world and were so impressed with human samurai that they decided to emulate them” has always been a really, really strange pitch to me - elves couldn’t come up with the idea of honor before they met Fantasy Asian folks?

Is there some nuance to it I’m unaware of, or are they really a nation of elven fanboys?

I see it as less the concept of honor, and more the concept of codifying honor. Elves are typically CG, so I would imagine that by default they leave such things up to the individual, to the point where having a communal definition of such a thing would be novel.

[RiverMesa]

One thing I'd love to see is giving Tian Xia the 'metaregion' treatment - divvy it up into smaller chunks of geographically- and thematically-adjacent nations and regions, rather than the big mess of 20-something nations that it currently is. This would give each place a bit more room to breathe in eventual supplements and a more distinct identity, instead of having to cram everything into one big book - the Mwangi Expanse was excellent, but no way that that level of detail and nuance can fit into a single sourcebook on a whole continent.

Successor States (of Lung Wa) could be one, with a clear Chinese and "post-imperial political squabbling" flavor running throughout, though even that is 16-something kingdoms, so maybe it could be further subdivided - not sure how exactly, though.

Minkai, Forest of Spirits and Xidao could be another region, being more Japanese in style.

Nagajor, Xa Hoi, Minata and Valashmai Jungle also seem related enough to form a region - with a more south/south-east Asian vibes running throughout.

It might be totally possible for Paizo to come up with new plot hooks and reasons to bind the places together, though - the Eye of Dread in the Inner Sea effectively didn't exist the same way it does now 10 years ago, and similar local conflicts and plots could have spawned on the continent in the decade since.

[Heki Lightbringer]

vagrant-poet wrote:

I understand what you're saying.

Colonial nations and areas as pretty much universally villainous foes to be rebelled against and defeated, is a kind of story I'm interested in.

Amanandar as written is both very white savior, and seems written to let you play as Taldan characters if Tian Xia is "too Asian" for a player. I can vaguely understand how that conversation arises, but I think a more self-aware team with Asian writers and decision makers would realize that that's not really a great statement to make, and if people want to play Avistani people that is just as valid as Tian characters in Avistan, without a justification-nation.

I haven't read it in quite some time, but I can't remember a single particularly compelling thing about Amanandar, just the above two things.

I think that conquering civilized foreign lands and making your own empire is an interesting story as well. It is a very grey area for sure, but moral dilemas and more heavy stuff is something that makes me interested in RPGs in the first place.

Taldor and Amandar are not Good Aligned, they are Neutral. Which means pros and cons. Grey stuff. That is important. If they would be defined as Lawful Good, that would be a huge problem, but luckily even 15 years ago and with very American outlook of the world Paizo did not make such mistake.

So I would just make sure that the white saviour trope point of view is dismissed. Taldan people brought law to the Amandar region opressed by bandits, but they also created other problems in the proces, because their reason for comming was acquisitive. That makes an interesting setting for a lot of diplomacy. It is not a necessarily evil place that must be rebelled against at all costs. There are other ways.
Rebellion does not equal good either, it equals chaos. Things can go horribly wrong during the rebellion even though the intent was pure good.

[Heki Lightbringer]

Bachuan will be much harder to salvage. They could at least not name the ideology communism which comes from latin (and thus in the setting Taldan) word communia.

They could find some historical thinker from the region who had simmilar ideas. Heck, China is so renowned for its philosophers. There is not a problem with communist inspired region per say, but it can't be a blatant copycat. That is lazy and immersion breaking. At least name it in a region themed way when everythig else is named that way.

I am from post communist country, so the word communism just instantly plucks me up from the setting. You could argue the same thing with colonialism if you are from a post colonial country. Sure, but the word colony does not equal modern euroamerican colonialism, many cultures from all over the world and time periods were making colonies and trade stations.

Communism from my point of view pretty much equals Marx, Stalin, Mao and their ideology (correct me if I am wrong). I don't mind fighting Baphomet or Lamashtu, cause they are mythical beings from real world history, but I sure don't want any Maos or Stalins in Golarion.

[The Raven Black]

Using the word Communism is the most simple and direct way to sum up the ideology of Bachuan.

I have the pet theory that Grandmother Pei is actually a Veiled Master.

[Konradleijon]

CorvusMask wrote:

I do think yeah Dragon Empires book could have used more writers with cultural background.

There was bit too much of "ninjas and samurai everywhere!". I mean yeah I get the idea was that just like with Avistan the countries are mix of different nations, but Japanese influences were most obvious ones visually <_<

Why did you say that? And their being the ideology named communism in a fantasy world is pretty jarring

[Ashanderai]

keftiu wrote:

How do folks feel about Jinin? “Elves traveled here from the other side of the world and were so impressed with human samurai that they decided to emulate them” has always been a really, really strange pitch to me - elves couldn’t come up with the idea of honor before they met Fantasy Asian folks?

Is there some nuance to it I’m unaware of, or are they really a nation of elven fanboys?

As a white guy in a Korean family and the author of the Kasai Gazetteer in AP 54 Jade Regent "The Empty Throne", the Jinin make me really uncomfortable. I find them to be very cool visually, but I just cannot get behind the whole "We - the entire elven population of this area - are going to abandon our own culture to adopt yours" point of view.

[vagrant-poet]

The Raven Black wrote:

Using the word Communism is the most simple and direct way to sum up the ideology of Bachuan.

The people who wrote the ideology of Bachuan were writing a flimsy, propagandized copy of Asian communist authoritarians though (even if not intentionally, that's how it came out).

It's fundamentally tautological to say communism describes Bachuan.

Bachaun isn't a real place someone is describing using "communism" as a handy reference.

The very modern history of communism and other related philosophies, as well as the various national regimes that used the title or had it applied to them is fraught, complex, and probably not something that can be thoughtfully explored in a super-powered heroes-doing-violence game. For the same reasons we don't have the Christian God in the game.

Maybe that will change with a re-write and different approach from the stuff we already got, but there's not a lot of good to be found in it so far.

[The Raven Black]

How is Galt any different ?

[Rysky]

Everything?

[Konradleijon]

How could communism especially a white American boy version of communism .

Galt doesn’t name a real life political ideology.

[The Raven Black]

Did you miss the references to French Revolution and Terror (and some October Revolution) ?

Edit : sorry for the derail. I agree that Bachuan looks like a caricature actually. But I think it has interesting potential as a Golarion-style version of the ideology with the supernatural nature of the setting mixing things up. TBH at the moment the whole continent mostly feels like a mash-up of Eastern tropes drawing heavily from medieval Japan, Imperial China and Godzilla.

We have this in many parts of the Inner Sea Region too (not-Vikings, not-Revolutionary America, not Revolutionary France, not Russia, not Byzantine Empire, not-Egypt...), but most were sufficiently explored to get their own original feeling. Tian Xia did not.

[Rysky]

That event is a lot different than Communism though.

[Konradleijon]

Yeah how a society turned to authotrion collectivist ideology and exploring it in more detail seems interesting like a fantasy version of Animal Farm. Maybe call it something else like Piism? After it’s founder? Maybe Asian brutal authoritarian socialist dictatorship in the fantasy game hits to close to home in our real world. Compared to Cherliax’s 17 century imperial strick.c

[Deserk]

I dislike Galt for it's exaggerated French Revolution themes as well as for being in a state of perpetual anarchy. And so I definitely detest "communist" Bachuan. In my campaigns, it'll just be a province of Po Li.

I don't like it when Paizo puts in things from the 18-20th century or futuristic themes into what ought be a Medieval/Renaissance fantasy setting. It just makes the setting so incoherent and jarring, in my opinion.

One thing I will say about Tian-Xia... in principle I don't care whatsoever about the racial identity of anyone who makes anything, but I would welcome more Asian designers on projects dealing with this continent because they would help make it a more authentic product. Often when my fellow white Europeans try to design or make something related to Asia, there is tendency to overly focus on either the Japanese (particularly Japanese) or (slightly less) the Chinese cultures. As is evident by there being ninjas and samurai virtually everywhere in Tian-Xia. It would be nice to see some attention diverted to places that reflect the many other nations and cultures of Asia, particularly South-East Asia. Thailand, Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. all being enormously diverse countries with a rich and colourful history. Minata could in particularly be very promising and interesting, if it echoes Indonesia with it's history of spice trade and piracy between it's many countless rivalling island kingdoms.

I would say Nagajor is really my personal favourite in the region, since it stands out as quite unique. And I do actually like the vast majority of the nations of Tian-Xia (which I can't completely say of the Inner Sea), and that there are quite a lot of non-human nations there in contrast to the Inner Sea where there are fairly few. The Valashmai Jungle would also be a convenient place in some new small nations or city-states, since it's such a vast region.

[Konradleijon]

Hongal is a better Mongolian stand in then the Dothraki who are just a bunch of more misogynistic then Westeros and obsessed with Horses and raiding with no other cultural traits. Throgh it is mentioned the Hongal eat more horse meat then other types which does t make a lot of sense cause horses where useful and a status symbol. They ate horse meat surely but didn’t relay on it. which is a way more “mainstream” work. Through I would love to see more of steppe culture in a mainstream product.

Horse Nomads are not portrayed as will in mainstream culture. As long with non agricultural cultures in general.

[Ashanderai]

Konradleijon wrote:

Hongal is a better Mongolian stand in then the Dothraki who are just a bunch of more misogynistic then Westeros and obsessed with Horses and raiding with no other cultural traits. Throgh it is mentioned the Hongal eat more horse meat then other types which does t make a lot of sense cause horses where useful and a status symbol. They ate horse meat surely but didn’t relay on it. which is a way more “mainstream” work. Through I would love to see more of steppe culture in a mainstream product.

Horse Nomads are not portrayed as will in mainstream culture. As long with non agricultural cultures in general.

I completely agree with this. In fact, from what little I know (from a documentary I saw years ago), IRL Mongolian culture is very matriarchal where women can have multiple husbands (if they are wealthy enough to support having them), are the ones to own land, and they track family lineage and names through the female bloodline. The western stereotype of the "Mongol Hordes" is extremely inaccurate to the point that I would say they are the most maligned by incorrect depictions in fiction than most any other Asian culture; all Asian cultures are, but they seem to have the worst offenses against them with the views on them being about a 180 degree of difference.

[Konradleijon]

Ashanderai wrote:

Konradleijon wrote:

Hongal is a better Mongolian stand in then the Dothraki who are just a bunch of more misogynistic then Westeros and obsessed with Horses and raiding with no other cultural traits. Throgh it is mentioned the Hongal eat more horse meat then other types which does t make a lot of sense cause horses where useful and a status symbol. They ate horse meat surely but didn’t relay on it. which is a way more “mainstream” work. Through I would love to see more of steppe culture in a mainstream product.

Horse Nomads are not portrayed as will in mainstream culture. As long with non agricultural cultures in general.

I completely agree with this. In fact, from what little I know (from a documentary I saw years ago), IRL Mongolian culture is very matriarchal where women can have multiple husbands (if they are wealthy enough to support having them), are the ones to own land, and they track family lineage and names through the female bloodline. The western stereotype of the "Mongol Hordes" is extremely inaccurate to the point that I would say they are the most maligned by incorrect depictions in fiction than most any other Asian culture; all Asian cultures are, but they seem to have the worst offenses against them with the views on them being about a 180 degree of difference.

Mongolian culture was patriarchal through less so then Near agricultural societies because of the importance of the whole clan. Maybe your confusing Mongolians with Great Plains tribes which where Matrilineal not matriarchal . But seemed that way to Europeans because women had to many rights.

[keftiu]

One thought: how do people feel about the “Tian” prefix on all the ethnic groups? I’m pretty unenthused about Tian Xia being borrowed from IRL wholecloth the way it has been, and I’d personally prefer if the various ethnic groups were just Min, Sing, etc.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

On the tangent of Galt, I always viewed it as its extreme of French revolution land. Since many of the SFS scenarios set there had a sense of whimsy and / or black humor, I wound up prepping for them by watching Monty Python and the Holy Grail so that I could do the absolutely terrible Monty Python French accent while GMing.

AND BACK ON TOPIC...

I would love to see a fully detailed Tian Xia. The Mwangi Expanse book was so beautiful and welcome that I cannot wait to see how Paizo re-envisions the various countries in the 2E Tian Xia.

[Rysky]

Deserk wrote:

into what ought be a Medieval/Renaissance fantasy setting.

According to whom?

That aside, I agree with everything else you said.

[Ashanderai]

Konradleijon wrote:

Ashanderai wrote:

Konradleijon wrote:

Hongal is a better Mongolian stand in then the Dothraki who are just a bunch of more misogynistic then Westeros and obsessed with Horses and raiding with no other cultural traits. Throgh it is mentioned the Hongal eat more horse meat then other types which does t make a lot of sense cause horses where useful and a status symbol. They ate horse meat surely but didn’t relay on it. which is a way more “mainstream” work. Through I would love to see more of steppe culture in a mainstream product.

Horse Nomads are not portrayed as will in mainstream culture. As long with non agricultural cultures in general.

I completely agree with this. In fact, from what little I know (from a documentary I saw years ago), IRL Mongolian culture is very matriarchal where women can have multiple husbands (if they are wealthy enough to support having them), are the ones to own land, and they track family lineage and names through the female bloodline. The western stereotype of the "Mongol Hordes" is extremely inaccurate to the point that I would say they are the most maligned by incorrect depictions in fiction than most any other Asian culture; all Asian cultures are, but they seem to have the worst offenses against them with the views on them being about a 180 degree of difference.

Mongolian culture was patriarchal through less so then Near agricultural societies because of the importance of the whole clan. Maybe your confusing Mongolians with Great Plains tribes which where Matrilineal not matriarchal . But seemed that way to Europeans because women had to many rights.

That could very easily be the case. Like I said, it was a documentary I saw years ago. In fact, the more I sit here and try to recall, I think they were more matrilineal than matriarchal in the material I remember viewing.

[David knott 242]

keftiu wrote:

How do folks feel about Jinin? “Elves traveled here from the other side of the world and were so impressed with human samurai that they decided to emulate them” has always been a really, really strange pitch to me - elves couldn’t come up with the idea of honor before they met Fantasy Asian folks?

Is there some nuance to it I’m unaware of, or are they really a nation of elven fanboys?

Elves all over Golarion appear to be influenced by local human cultures (contrast the Kyonin elves of Avistan with the Ekujae elves of Garund, for example), but in this case they seem to be highlighting direct influence from a single Tian nation. For Jinin, I would hope that a more detailed description of that nation would reveal parallel development that converged when the elves of Jinin realized that Minkai was somehow the local human nation that they already had the most in common with.