What do you hope to see changed in 2e Tian Xia?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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CorvusMask wrote:

Utare and Yumogu portrayal are something I want to add to list of things I hope to see changed in 2e.

Reading minkai article from ap, it is decently interesting yeah, but uh Osogen grasslands part it gives me sargava book flashbacks. It's very clearly demeaning. I dunno if writers were going for "this is how local governance sees them" or for "these are where you find barbarian class characters in Minkai", but either way, let me just show what I'm talking about.

"The Osogen Grasslands: Near the Forest of Spirits, Osogen is inhabited by two kindred of barbarians: the Utare, fishermen and hunters who keep to the coasts, and the Yumogu, proud nomadic herders with a reputation for deceit. Both peoples were slowly driven back to the grasslands by the Minkai people in a centuries-long struggle that largely subsided before the rise of the Teikoku Shogunate. The Yumogu and the Utare have never been able to seriously challenge the might of the empire since then, but the southern reaches of Osogen have been contested between generations of settlers and barbarians. Under imperial law the Osogen Grasslands are considered part of Sakakabe Province, but the region’s governors have long taken a stance of disinterest and noninterference with the barbarians, so long as they don’t intrude upon the more civilized south."

Adventure itself(the bandit group that has taken fortress in beginning of adventure are Yumogu) doesn't really tell anything about them besides that Utare are "relatively peaceful". The "Tian-Min" Utare "shaman"(druid worshipping Lady Nanbyo) was evil renegade.

I think I have reason to be very confident that when we get 2e article on Minkai, we'll probably learn more about Utare and Yumogu and they will get portrayed in more nuanced manner than this :P

They take clear inspiration from the Ainu, who have suffered similarly in real-world history and deserve fantasy representation like anybody else. I know Ainu mythology is a deep, rich well to draw from, and could provide a nice counterbalance for PCs from the region. Give me Utare bear-Beastkin!

Plus, anything that bolsters the odds of a 2e Shaman class is welcome in my book.

Dark Archive

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Not sure how close they are to Ainu since not much detail of them is included*(though Yumogu names include Gangasum, Ilgamal, Nalkalun and Utare names include Kamuy-Paro and Tos Katun. So at very least very obviously they don't follow same naming patterns as Tian-Min, another point to possible being different ethnic groups), but I'm all for Fantasy Ainu and Ainu culture/myth portrayal

*The bandit group itself is pretty vile(I've complained previously about how dark this section in book is because I'm shocked I haven't seen anyone comment on it online), but their deeds aside, the bandit chief's background makes mention of his having arguments against cautious elders of his tribe due to his dangerous ambitions, which is to be to restore his people's dominance and became feudal lord of the borderlands, thus why he is trying to negotiate with local evil daimyo to became allies with empire(and thus Jade Regent). I am bit sad we don't get to learn more of Utare and Yumogu here since only people we meet are basically, renegades, extremists and outcasts and basically disposable (but very cruel) villains for intro of book. Though at least its made pretty clear they aren't typical examples of their people.

But yeah reading Kasai article not much to add that besides I do think writers did pretty good job here(I do kinda wonder though how Minkai will change with CG ruler in charge) and that I like there is a giant ancient cherry blossom tree. Only thing is that I'm kinda sad that adventure itself doesn't spend much time in streets of Kasai

Samsaran and wayang were only missing 1e tian xia ancestries iirc, so I'm curious to see if we get those back in tian xia book or before since they did find ways to sneak in tengu, kitsune and nagaji.


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I’m still stunned we got Nagaji back before Samsarans.

At least for Wayangs, you can approximate them with the Small Fetchlings, but I’d love to have a better understanding of how the two are different. More than other planetouched, I feel like Shadow stuff can become really one-note.

Dark Archive

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Besides cultural differences like shadow puppetry? And PC fetchlings losing Shadow trait for some reason? I'd honestly just emphasize the fact that while fetchling are descendant of humans who moved to shadowplane, wayang are shadow plane beings who moved to Golarion during age of darkness. Like as much as kayals make sense as ancestry instead of heritage(due to their origin) they are pretty much just shadow planar scions, so I think what should be done with wayang ancestry feats is emphasizing that while they are humanoids, they ARE living shadows as well rather than just manipulating shadows. Like maybe they can temporarily turn flat as shadow and slide under door paper mario style?(while still being corporeal creature)

Also they really should make them look less like D&D goblins, like some of fanart based on the wayang shadowpuppets look better while also looking less uncanny as the advanced race guide's picture :D


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Paper Mario is such an inspired pull. The Thousand Year Door is one of my favorite games ever, and Vivian’s fun, weird shadow stuff is a really neat angle on shadow magic!

Dark Archive

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Ooh Vivian gives me another idea, like wayang being able to hide in their own shadow would be super fitting as well :D

Radiant Oath

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Considering the very name "wayang" comes from the name for the art of Javanese shadow puppetry, it wouldn't surprise me that a writer of Indonesian or Malay heritage would REALLY be able to help wayang culture take off. That's honestly an area of Southeast Asia that could do with stronger representation in Tian Xia anyway (disclaimer, I'm a white American, and actual Indonesian and Malaysian people should naturally be leading the conversation, so I defer to them).

Liberty's Edge

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IIRC humans were a late arrival to Tian Xia. I believe they suddently appeared en masse there after Earthfall.

I would love to know more about these early times : what was there before, what caused the coming of humans and what happened when they started spreading.


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Are there any organizations that span multiple nations in Tian Xia? My impression is that each nation feels pretty standalone in the lore we have now. I know about the Golden League, the crime syndicate, but that’s basically it.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Catching up on threads today, and just noticed one of my favorite games ever got namedropped in this thread! Ah, Paper Mario. Such good times we had, or are having. Was just replaying that game a couple months ago. I will never in a million years retire my Gamecube.

Tian Xia's got really cool factions! Lots of ones listed in the Dragon Empire Gazetteer, actually. The Zo are like Free Captains with a little spookier reputation (primarily composed of exiles from Minata), Kusari-Gama are a secret society with dojos across Golarion perfecting the art of combat to prepare for some cryptic, apocalyptic war occurring sometime in the future, the Lantern Lodge is basically a Pathfinder Society (independent from it, although the two have a good relationship) devoted to preserving history, the Shattered Lotus wants to bring back Lung Wa, the Order of the Black Daimyo are a malevolent mercenary group devoted to the teachings of General Susumu, and the Way of Kirin was a powerful organization in Imperial Lung Wa that nearly collapsed with it, but is trying to rebuild itself, in the hopes of fostering equitable and prosperous trade between every nation, and counteracting harm done by corrupt states. There's also a weird human supremacist group devoted to eradicating monsterkind from the world, and subjugating any other non-humans.

I think the Way of Kirin is supposed to be in Dark Archive, actually. In any case, excited to learn more about these organizations.

Dark Archive

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Way of Kirin is mentioned in secret society section yeah


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Digging around some and man, I can't wait to see Minata in fuller detail - it honestly feels like an upgrade from the Shackles. You've got sailors and pirates everywhere, prehistoric ruins from before Earthfall, volcanoes, beastfolk descended from interplanetary slaves of the ancient past, floating cities, petty kingdoms, tons of little shadow magic-obsessed weirdos and maritime Ysoki... there's an awful lot to like.

You're also a stone's throw away from the Valashmai Jungle (once home to an interplanetary empire, now home to kaiju), Nagajor (the intrigues of immortal servants), Dtang Ma (ruled by Thai sorcerers!), Xa Hoi (Vietnam with its dragon kings), and Pan Majang (a Darklands realm full of violent haunted clockworks), which is just an insanely rich palette. People drift to Minkai out of popular love for Japan, and the three main Successor States are the 'heart' of the region, but I think all the coolest stuff is happening down in the south.


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Honestly, I don't think Tian Xia needs many changes. What it needs is a lot more lore and specifics.

The reason why Avistan and Casmaron have so much info is because they got specific books to talk about specific countries and regions. People are talking about how good the Mwangi Expanse book is, but that is a book about a single "country"/Region of Garund. So what I think is need is not erasing what little info is already there. Instead take that info and further develop it by making books focused on only a few countries at most.

Aka we need more Player Companions and Lost Omen books that focus on singular countries and cities that flesh out that specific region.

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From what I have read the issue with a lot of Tian Xia is not that its bad, its that its one note. They gave us enough that a good writer could base a story off of it, but not enough for any of those regions to have any nuance.


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Btw regarding Bachuan, I don't see the issue with having a country that fits "communism red scare". Golarion already has plenty of questionable contries and its those countries existing that makes everything interesting.

I will continue to stand on the hill that removing all instances of "X group is bad" makes for a boring setting. Afterall you cannot have heroes if there are no villains.


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Temperans wrote:

Btw regarding Bachuan, I don't see the issue with having a country that fits "communism red scare". Golarion already has plenty of questionable contries and its those countries existing that makes everything interesting.

I will continue to stand on the hill that removing all instances of "X group is bad" makes for a boring setting. Afterall you cannot have heroes if there are no villains.

No one is calling for Golarion to utterly lack villains. We just want the setting to have more tact than directly ripping off atrocities still within living memory - the Chinese Cultural Revolution and the genocide in Cambodia are both more recent than The Beatles. It's lazy and insensitive to copy it whole cloth.

Have Bachuan be home to a tyrannical cult of personality and scarred by a revolution gone awry, sure. It doesn't need to literally be communist. Much in the same way that the faux-jihadi Cult of the Dawnflower was cast out from 2e canon for being tasteless, I think Bachuan deserves to be something other than the transparent cut-paste it currently is.

Dark Archive

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It's also bit of perception thing tbh.

Like, if I would write a red scare country, it would come across as much more "oh they are just insensitively ripping it straight from newspapers and history books" than if somebody who has through their family has experienced the pains of those situations did same thing. Like even if both people(the outsider and the person with connection) intend to write fantasy version to help people either deal with that or to educate people(and even if both execute is just as clumsily), it just comes across very different from outside perspective. I don't think Bachuan would be more liked if it is written by someone with said connection, but I think it would make people focus more on "They need to execute it better" aspect.

Besides I noticed earlier that Bachuan has other problems than being uncomfortably close to recent events as well. Like consistent thing in different sources and summaries(such as jade regent book 6's one line summary of tian xia's countries in continue the campaign article) referring to Bachuan is idea that Grandfather Pei was good person while Grandmother Pei is evil tyrant who took control of country, but the actual Bachuan gazetteer tells much more disturbing implications than that <_< Like what is the case, was Grandfather Pei also a tyrant just less evil one or did writer forget that "Oh right, nice ruler wouldn't put people through re-education camps"? It really comes across as "writer believed re-education camps are inherently part of communism and they included this line without thinking about contradicting with the good ruler to evil ruler theme"


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Yeah, I agree that it could be written better not saying that shouldn't be done. What I was saying is that instead of just retconning the whole thing as was previously suggested, it would be better to expand on it with better and more detailed writing (The exact same thing that happened with Mwangi Expanse). The whole place seems like its ripe for a bunch of intrigue with multiple parties trying to do political maneuvers around each other. I can even see a campaign (or half a campaign) based around solving the issues, similar to Hell's Rebels/Vengeance, War for the Crown, Curse of the Crimson Throne, etc.

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Also having read the wiki articles, it doesn't sound like Grandfather Pei was a good guy, just that he was not as bad as Grandmother Pei. We have a very similar storyline with Queen Ileosa Arabasti of Korvosa, and to an extent the Gray Maidens.

To me it reads like this is what happened: Dude was neutral but became evil over the years when he started to get more extreme to maintain control. His initial popularity along with re-education ploy succeeded in changing how the history books see him, softening his image (not unreasonable given magic). He married a woman that had gone through one of the camps thus a zealot of his ideology and who happened to be even worse than he is. (Also note that you can still be evil and not show it in public, making him more insidious and awful).

Thus, there is no contradiction, and both are just awful people.

Dark Archive

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Ah, right, I should probably show case why I believe books are contradictory rather than just say they are ^_^;

Jade Regent book 6 tian xia summary:

"Bachuan: This nation was once governed by the altruistic Grandfather Pei, but the death of Bachuan’s leader has given rise to the harsh and zealous rule of his young wife."

Dragon empires gazetter tian xia timeline:

"7168 Grandfather Pei dies; rule of Bachuan passes to his not-nearly-so-friendly wife."

The Bachuan gazetter from same book is most ambiguous(its where re-education camp mentions are from) about it but also implies it:

"Some grumbled about the increasingly autocratic nature of Grandfather Pei’s leadership and the grim ideological purges during the last few years of his life, but the most astute instead blamed the gradual shift away from Pei’s ideas on the subtle machinations of his sixth wife."

(aka it implies he isn't to blame for increasing autocracy or purges)

And from Dragon Empires Primer on Bachuan:

"Even with the collapse of Lung Wa, the mandarins of Pen Wa Province thought they could keep their petty and vindictive rule alive. But they had not counted on the arrival of Grandfather Pei, who taught harmony and unity, and rallied the oppressed peasants under a banner that would free them of the corrupt rule of tyrannical governors. Grandfather Pei preached to the downtrodden farmers and miners that all people were equal, and all should share in labor as well as in the fruits of their labors. His revolution overthrew the existing order, and heralded the establishment of a government that oversaw labor, production, and distribution of wealth, guaranteeing prosperity to all who deserved it. Unfortunately, the revolt’s good intentions became tainted by the strict and subtle machinations of the leader who followed Grandfather Pei—his sixth wife, Pu Yae Men, known now only as Grandmother Pei."

All of these imply Grandfather Pei was benevolent ruler until Grandmother Pei ruined his work with her zealotry ^_^; While he could still be altruistic benevolent LN leaning evil ruler with re-education camps... Okay yeah you see why I find it contradictory it feels like all three references of Bachuan are written by different people, yet that didn't stop gazetteer writer including references to re-education camps from early time of revolution.

I don't think interpretation that Grandfather Pei was LN leaning LE is necessarily wrong, but I do believe it seems original concept of nature was "Well intentioned idealistic communism gets replaced by autocratic extreme one" rather than "Communist state was horrible and then got even worse"


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I really don't see a contradiction. All of those say or imply the same: He and his revolution started out probably lawful neutral and at some point started to become evil (probaly when they decided to re-educate people to control the population). Then she got in his pants and made things worse.

The line about the astute blaming her could probably be a reference to how we are talking about an 80-100 year old dude (no offense but many old people start to loose around that age). Something like "hey we didn't sign up for this". If they flesh it out I really do think it could make for an interest arc for a campaign.

Dark Archive

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I think altruism is more often than not used in setting to imply good alignment, but I guess just have to agree to disagree whether the contradiction exists or not?

Bachuan aside, there is an actual thing that I kinda would like to get actual change on and that is Ordu-Aganhei's ruler. Dragon empires gazetteer just say that horse lords look down on him for preferring city life while in Jade Regent he is uh... Absolute caricature of various tropes and LN person that is somehow not evil despite apparently being willing to kill hundred servants to atone for accidentally insulting someone.

(I for my own home game went with "he is eccentric, but on purpose cultivates bizarre scary reputation because fear is way to control people, he doesn't actually behead his own servants to be polite, he is only brutal towards bandits")

Liberty's Edge

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keftiu wrote:

Bachuan as it currently stands doesn’t feel like Golarion to me, is I guess where I stand.

Cheliax is an evil faux-European empire, but they aren’t just nefarious fantasy Brits or Spaniards. Galt draws heavily on the French Revolution and its tragedies, but spices them up with the supernatural - and more importantly, the Reign of Terror is centuries removed from a modern reader.

But Bachuan? Bachuan is imported almost wholly from a nation on Earth today, and leans on horrors (the Cultural Revolution, the Korean War and its aftermath, the Killing Fields) well within living memory. If Paizo wouldn’t plop Nazi Germany down into their setting, then I don’t know why doing it for an Asian nation is any better.

Just wanted to note that Cheliax IS Nazi Germany. Though definitely more Golarionized than Bachuan.


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The Raven Black wrote:
keftiu wrote:

Bachuan as it currently stands doesn’t feel like Golarion to me, is I guess where I stand.

Cheliax is an evil faux-European empire, but they aren’t just nefarious fantasy Brits or Spaniards. Galt draws heavily on the French Revolution and its tragedies, but spices them up with the supernatural - and more importantly, the Reign of Terror is centuries removed from a modern reader.

But Bachuan? Bachuan is imported almost wholly from a nation on Earth today, and leans on horrors (the Cultural Revolution, the Korean War and its aftermath, the Killing Fields) well within living memory. If Paizo wouldn’t plop Nazi Germany down into their setting, then I don’t know why doing it for an Asian nation is any better.

Just wanted to note that Cheliax IS Nazi Germany. Though definitely more Golarionized than Bachuan.

That’s the thing, though - it isn’t. Nobody in Cheliax has German names, there’s no Nazi symbolism everywhere, no industrialized genocide of halflings. No Chelish character identifies as a “fascist” or “national socialist.” There’s no ready German parallel to the Chelish Civil War, nor to the tying of the empire to the faith of Asmodeus. Cheliax draws a lot on the legacies of vicious European empires, but is pulling on a diverse spread of them - we had some schmuck a while back claim that they were “clearly meant to make the British look bad,” while their names and culture touch some on both Spain and Ancient Rome - but also has as many original fantasy elements to go with all that.

Bachuan is literally “this place is a violent Communist Asian nation with a cult of personality around the leadership,” which has about as much tact as if the Chelish were doing the fascist salute at each other all the time and saying “Heil Thrune.” I’m begging for, at the very least, a thicker Golarion coat of paint on the damn thing.


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Found a tidbit in an old PFS scenario that I don't think has been expanded on anywhere:

Quote:

Cheliax faction PCs should find the religious tome interesting. The 1,900 Teachings and Verses of Absolute Law of Làu Kiritsu concerns the worship of an infernal duke worshiped in Tian Xia, including provocative magic items created by his followers. [...] Learning about the

strange devices of Làu Kiritsu earns Cheliax faction PCs 1 Prestige Point.

The room is a torture chamber, but none of the magical devices Lau Kiritsu seems so fond of make an appearance. He apparently dates back to an old Kobold Quarterly, a magazine I honestly didn't know existed.

Still, it's cool to know there's infernal options for Tian stories!


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Further digging into 1e Society scenarios, and there's one set in Nagajor: #3-17 "Red Harvest." It seems head and shoulders above most of the PFS stuff I've read, detailing a gang war over a Nagajor village between a traditionalist guardian naga and a reformer spirit naga. Each has a mercenary champion (a LN Samsaran Ranger and a CN Tengu Fighter/Rogue, respectively) leading their nagaji soldiers, while an LE royal naga contents himself with keeping the local shrine to himself.

There's some great stuff hidden throughout: an oni pretending to be a tax collector, a brief historical tidbit about Lussan (a failed Nagaji state with self-rule), a fleeting mention of a temple to Geryon in Nagajor's capital, and the great detail that Nagajor grows coffee! It's awesome to see the nation shine so well; I can't wait for the Nagaji in LOIL and hopefully Nagajor in a Tian Xia book to come.


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Hmm... if there is "Accepted in a completely different direction by Minkaian" activity...


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Laclale♪ wrote:
Hmm... if there is "Accepted in a completely different direction by Minkaian" activity...

I’m not really sure what this means. What do you mean by activity? What “completely different direction?”


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keftiu wrote:
Laclale♪ wrote:
Hmm... if there is "Accepted in a completely different direction by Minkaian" activity...
I’m not really sure what this means. What do you mean by activity? What “completely different direction?”

Just like how Minkaianizing beam or tailless form works. (click link)


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Cough... confused between Tian-min and language Minkaian

Silver Crusade

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keftiu wrote:
That’s the thing, though - it isn’t. Nobody in Cheliax has German names, there’s no Nazi symbolism everywhere,

Apologies for the necro and tangent, but the Cheliax flag is literally a swasticka.

Back on topic I agree with your points on Bachaun, it needs a revision and fleshing out rather than just North Korea crane gamed up whole cloth and plopped into Golarion.

Dark Archive

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Isn't it more of spiky cross?

Shadow Lodge

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CorvusMask wrote:
Isn't it more of spiky cross?

Cheliax's flag is the anarcho-syndicalist flag, with the red and black sectors swapped, defaced with the Thrune coat of arms. Those arms include a swastika (with the central cross pointing to the cardinal directions rather than rotated 45 degrees therefrom like the Nazi swastika), that is missing the north and south hooks but that retains the east and west ones, and is inscribed in a circle. The device is clearly meant to call the Nazi swastika to mind without actually incorporating it.

Liberty's Edge

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Isn't it more of spiky cross?
Cheliax's flag is the anarcho-syndicalist flag, with the red and black sectors swapped, defaced with the Thrune coat of arms. Those arms include a swastika (with the central cross pointing to the cardinal directions rather than rotated 45 degrees therefrom like the Nazi swastika), that is missing the north and south hooks but that retains the east and west ones, and is inscribed in a circle. The device is clearly meant to call the Nazi swastika to mind without actually incorporating it.

It also brings to mind the Celtic cross which is a far right (to be polite) symbol in some countries (France for example).


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Laclale♪ wrote:
Cough... confused between Tian-min and language Minkaian

The “Tian-“ prefix indicates the ethnicity; Minkaian is the language. A Tian-Min person probably speaks Minkaian.

Dark Archive

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The Raven Black wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Isn't it more of spiky cross?
Cheliax's flag is the anarcho-syndicalist flag, with the red and black sectors swapped, defaced with the Thrune coat of arms. Those arms include a swastika (with the central cross pointing to the cardinal directions rather than rotated 45 degrees therefrom like the Nazi swastika), that is missing the north and south hooks but that retains the east and west ones, and is inscribed in a circle. The device is clearly meant to call the Nazi swastika to mind without actually incorporating it.
It also brings to mind the Celtic cross which is a far right (to be polite) symbol in some countries (France for example).

That celtic cross is what I was thinking of yeah


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I would like Pazio to stick to pre 18th century Asian history. There is plenty of rich non-western themes for the players to explore. The Mongols, the Korean and Thei Empire's as well as the empire of Burma. Place these lands in Tian-Xia and we will have a wonderful rich land to explore. We can leave the modern 20th century stuff out. Tech is ok.

Set one Land in a land like the Kingdom [a show produced by Koreans exploring imperial rule and zombies] BTW this show is on Netflix it's great. The reaction of the crown Prince to seeing how peasants lived was great. He had never been out of the Palace. The show also showed a weapon being sundered.

WE don't need communism or neo-stateism discussed in a fantasy setting leave those to political science classes at University.


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I’d appreciate if further Cheliax talk went somewhere other than the Tian Xia thread, folks. It was brought up as a point of comparison to Bachuan; anything beyond that doesn’t really apply here.


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Deserk wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

I do think yeah Dragon Empires book could have used more writers with cultural background.

There was bit too much of "ninjas and samurai everywhere!". I mean yeah I get the idea was that just like with Avistan the countries are mix of different nations, but Japanese influences were most obvious ones visually <_<

Agreed. I would have liked more focus on the non-Japanese cultures.

One thing I do really like about Tian-Xia though is that there is a good mix of non-human ruled nations, which I really wish was there was more of in the Inner Sea (I guess we got a little bit of that with the addition of Oprak).

And yeah I do dislike Bachuan as well. I really don't like it when Paizo goes way beyond the Late Medieval Period and puts in fashion, technology and ideologies from the 18-20th centuries. It's jarring and makes the setting look incoherent.

Agree with some of this but not the "Cultural background" sorry Tian Xia is HEAVILY japanese mythos all round lmfao thats exactly what it needs, only reason most people I know spammed that setting. Introducing more background bs is going to just smother it or flat out not make it Tian Xia anymore like what happened with some of the other stuff, I dunno we'll see. Would actually like Daikitsu to get some actual attention too, plenty of content and she didnt get so much as a sketch of wtf she looks like and is missing boons/curses and all kinds of stuff, really the only gods I care about from the "Core" stuff is Desn, Shelyn, and Lamashtu bout it.

Silver Crusade

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Thank you for your pointless contribution and necro, there is more to Asia than Japan, there is more to the Fantasy Asia that is Tian Xia than fantasy Japan, that's always been true, even in P1.

Quote:
Introducing more background bs is going to just smother it or flat out not make it Tian Xia anymore like what happened with some of the other stuff

Very peculiar choice of words in this rant.

What "bs" is that? Actually breathing life into a setting? Not have places and people be caricatures and fetishes? Or something else?


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foxpwnsyou wrote:
Agree with some of this but not the "Cultural background" sorry Tian Xia is HEAVILY japanese mythos all round lmfao thats exactly what it needs, only reason most people I know spammed that setting. Introducing more background bs is going to just smother it or flat out not make it Tian Xia anymore like what happened with some of the other stuff, I dunno we'll see.

Minkai is obviously meant to stand in for Japan, Shokuro has a shogun, and the elves of Jinin think samurai are really, really cool. If we're being especially generous, then the Forest of Spirits (home to kami) and Chu Ye (ruled by oni) can count as well. Kaoling had Japanese aesthetics in 1e, but those have been replaced by a more uniquely goblin-like style in 2e, so it doesn't count here. That's 3-5 "Japans," if we're being reductive.

There's 28 named nations and regions on the 1e Tian Xia map; to say that an entire continent is "HEAVILY Japanese" feels pretty off-base. Dtang Ma draws on Thailand, Xa Hoi draws on Vietnam, Bachuan and Hwanggot are pretty transparently both (very different!) Koreas, Hongal is a fantasy Mongolia, Amanandar is playing with European colonial legacies in Asia, Lung Wa itself is riffing on the various Chinese dynasties, Minata draws on the wider SEA cultures, Wayang come from Javanese shadow plays, there's faux-Tibetan mountain monasteries... if you only saw Japan, it's because that's all you were looking for.

I'm curious - what "other stuff" do you think was ruined? And why on Earth would you be opposed to Asian writers on the project?


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Slight correction but Wayangs aren't Japanese but Indonesian.


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MadScientistWorking wrote:
Slight correction but Wayangs aren't Japanese but Indonesian.

I described them as Javanese; Java is an island in Indonesia.


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keftiu wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Slight correction but Wayangs aren't Japanese but Indonesian.
I described them as Javanese; Java is an island in Indonesia.

Don't mind me. Need more coffee. Read that completely wrong. Sorry.


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I would love to seemore of South East Asian culture incorporated into Golarion. My wife being Javanese, I like when she talk to me about the more mythologic side of her culture.

Or it could come in form of an exploration AP where you discovers islands and islands with a mix of different culture. Just changing half and island in Indonesia mean you have to change the way you say ''Yes'' from Iya (Jakarta) to Iyo (Yogyakarta). And the Linguist Archetype become a most!

Also, as mentioned, more Wayang stuff, my father-in-law as a huge collection of them (And a collection a keris...one forged in 1200's...)


I'm wondering, and do forgive any real world ignorance on my part, no malice is intended, but I'm wondering if there wouldn't be a problem in working in more Polynesian/Pacific Islander influence into Minata or if that needs to be a more purely Indonesian influenced area.

I'd personally like to see some samoan & maori influence in the setting but I don't know if this would be the place for it or if it shouldn't be held off until a potential Sarusan book, especially given that I don't imagine I'm going to live to see that happen.


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I don't think a Sarusan book is ever in the cards since Sarusan is basically the cordoned off area on the map for homebrew, since you can put literally anything there without messing with the rest of the setting (as no one comes out of there, and no one who goes there returns.)

The Polynesian/Pacific Islands stuff is going to have to live somewhere else.


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FormerFiend wrote:

I'm wondering, and do forgive any real world ignorance on my part, no malice is intended, but I'm wondering if there wouldn't be a problem in working in more Polynesian/Pacific Islander influence into Minata or if that needs to be a more purely Indonesian influenced area.

I'd personally like to see some samoan & maori influence in the setting but I don't know if this would be the place for it or if it shouldn't be held off until a potential Sarusan book, especially given that I don't imagine I'm going to live to see that happen.

Minata has not only drawn on Indonesia, but also Filipino stuff in the past, I think it's bigger than any one specific inspiration. There's also the Taotake people of the Okaiyo Ocean, who I'm keen to see more of, and who seem to be Hawaiian-inspired.


keftiu wrote:
I described them as Javanese; Java is an island in Indonesia.

If so, don't put the word "Amor" in Wayangs.

I'm currently making my version of funken in PF2e style and the word "Indonesia" reminded "Amor".

PS: Minata too


Laclale♪ wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I described them as Javanese; Java is an island in Indonesia.

If so, don't put the word "Amor" in Wayangs.

I'm currently making my version of funken in PF2e style and the word "Indonesia" reminded "Amor".

PS: Minata too

I’m sorry, I don’t really understand what this means. Amor? Funken?


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I don't think a Sarusan book is ever in the cards since Sarusan is basically the cordoned off area on the map for homebrew, since you can put literally anything there without messing with the rest of the setting (as no one comes out of there, and no one who goes there returns.)

The Polynesian/Pacific Islands stuff is going to have to live somewhere else.

For some reason I have it in my head that while that was the initial intention of the landmass, they'd dropped that and moved in a direction that would imply they're going to go ahead with it being Not-Australia, which it obviously is. Still gonna be this far off, mysterious place that they're almost certainly never going to do a book on, but I picked up the idea somewhere that they were dropping the 'blank slate: the continent' angle.


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FormerFiend wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I don't think a Sarusan book is ever in the cards since Sarusan is basically the cordoned off area on the map for homebrew, since you can put literally anything there without messing with the rest of the setting (as no one comes out of there, and no one who goes there returns.)

The Polynesian/Pacific Islands stuff is going to have to live somewhere else.

For some reason I have it in my head that while that was the initial intention of the landmass, they'd dropped that and moved in a direction that would imply they're going to go ahead with it being Not-Australia, which it obviously is. Still gonna be this far off, mysterious place that they're almost certainly never going to do a book on, but I picked up the idea somewhere that they were dropping the 'blank slate: the continent' angle.

I believe it's the opposite - the idea is that Sarusan is a permanent blank, so that "Fantasy Australia" had to go somewhere else, likely in either Southern Garund or Southern Arcadia.

EDIT: The most recent source I can find.

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