What do you hope to see changed in 2e Tian Xia?


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Golarion Australia is were ever Terror Birds are originally from, change my mind.

image of terror bird.
image of cassowary (aka the murderbird).


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Temperans wrote:

Golarion Australia is were ever Terror Birds are originally from, change my mind.

image of terror bird.
image of cassowary (aka the murderbird).

”Terror Bird” is an IRL term referring to a category of extinct South American animals.


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My point stands due to Pathfinder not having an actual cassowary/emu stat block.


keftiu wrote:
Laclale♪ wrote:
keftiu wrote:
I described them as Javanese; Java is an island in Indonesia.

If so, don't put the word "Amor" in Wayangs.

I'm currently making my version of funken in PF2e style and the word "Indonesia" reminded "Amor".

PS: Minata too

I’m sorry, I don’t really understand what this means. Amor? Funken?

Amor is Indonesian from what I found

Funken is... um... alias for "Characters who appeared in Friday Night Funkin or its Mod" i don't know


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Revisiting this thread with the announcement of the 2e Tian Xia books, and there's already some fascinating changes revealed in that blog post! I figured it was worth digging this thread up here, as they seem to address some topics we brought up.

Amanandar has formally declared independence from Taldor and renamed itself Linvarre. It has a unique national language, Taltien (seemingly a Taldane-Tien hybrid), and a mixed culture that pays homage to both. It seems like a fairly idealistic vision of something like a fantasy Hong Kong, which I'm all for - a place to actually be *from.* It's exciting!

Bachuan has opened up and instituted reforms at the behest of an oracle from Po Li, likely in order to move it away from the tyrannical North Korea/Revolutionary China it so visibly leaned on before. It's interesting that a divine individual was able to reach the atheist nation (unless that atheism is retconned, which is possible!), but seemingly positions them as a large and powerful patron for the smaller nation. More complicated continental politics = more good stuff, IMO.

There's also the mention of the Valash Raj down in Valashmai, which implies to me that the scattered mentions of beastfolk (descended from extraplanar and/or interplanetary slaves of a long-fallen empire, IIRC?) in the region have now been presented as a formal state. It's interesting that the Raj title (in-setting, most likely imported from Vudra) is used here, especially with South Asian-inspired Nagajor bordering it.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It does seem to be interesting that their revision to Amanandar was "Heavy focus on concept of mixed heritage" which is good revision, especially considering original was "Little Taldor Colony where army saved locals from bandits".

Bachuan thing does kinda make me wonder if they are completely gonna drop the plot line of their saber rattling with Hwangot, in general Tian Xia had interesting feature of not lot of straight up evil nations(about three of them) but lot of neutral nations that are likely going to have war in future(Bachuan was borderline evil though with LE ruler). Either way its good for them to move away from tone deaf portrayal it had going on earlier, but I'm wondering if they are going to soften it too much or if its still going to be one of the antagonistic nations?


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keftiu wrote:

Revisiting this thread with the announcement of the 2e Tian Xia books, and there's already some fascinating changes revealed in that blog post! I figured it was worth digging this thread up here, as they seem to address some topics we brought up.

Amanandar has formally declared independence from Taldor and renamed itself Linvarre. It has a unique national language, Taltien (seemingly a Taldane-Tien hybrid), and a mixed culture that pays homage to both. It seems like a fairly idealistic vision of something like a fantasy Hong Kong, which I'm all for - a place to actually be *from.* It's exciting!
...
It's interesting that the Raj title (in-setting, most likely imported from Vudra) is used here, especially with South Asian-inspired Nagajor bordering it.

(Chopped down the quote to only the parts to)

Pretty happy about Amanandar as it's more or less exactly what I was hoping. The revelation of a hybrid language is interesting; I suspect it'll turn out to be something that's existed as a while for locals but has until recently been looked down on by elites and considered merely a pidgin. A language is a dialect with an army, as they say.

As for the Valash Raj/Nagajor, both the title of Raja and nagas as part of religion/folklore have been a thing in real world Southeast Asia for a while*, so it would fit the general regional inspiration, but I do agree Vudra is the likely origin of the term.

*not assuming you were unaware of that, just pointing out that Nagajor needn't necessarily be South Asian-inspired

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

We haven't really had pidgin language in while now that I think about it. 1e had polyglot which was renamed to Mwangi in 2e for good reason, but nothing else has really touched that concept in pathfinder unless I'm forgetting something?

Shadow Lodge

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keftiu wrote:
(unless that atheism is retconned, which is possible!)

You don't need a retcon, a conservative turn is just as likely if not moreso (indeed, it would be necessary to maintain Paizo's 1.000 anti-radical batting average from Galt, Korvosa, Ravounel and Vidrian).


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The bit about a Po-Li oracle "convincing" Bachuan feels a little off. Given the parallels to communist China, having an outsider come in and explain they should open up feels a little patronising. The brilliance of what Nixon did was that China already wanted to normalise relations, and he (the red-baiting son of a so and so that he was) was the only one who could do it without being called a communist sympathiser and got a lot of concessions for it. Hopefully the book goes into a bit more detail about that. But, on the other hand, I'm more comfortable with Bachuan being a parallel to post-Nixon China than Cultural Revolution China since it includes less genocide as a backdrop.

I'm also happy about the changes to Amanandar, and while the positions aren't analogous, I'm reminded of the Greek colonies on the edge of Indian territory that continued to use Greek language and infrastructure and bureaucracy but adapted Indian styles and incorporated Buddhism to their own beliefs, and vice versa among the neighbouring Indian kingdoms. I'm also reminded of the longstanding legend of Liqian, about a Roman legion taken prisoner by the Persians and sent to fight the Chinese, who took them prisoner and settled them in a town. It's not true (or at least genetic studies show there's no correlation between the surprising number of blue-eyed Chinese in the area and Italian DNA, and the name is likely a coincidence) but a Roman town in the middle of Han Dynasty China sounds exactly Amanandar-adjacent.


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I’m getting less “Bachuan is China after the West gets it to open up” and more “Bachuan is North Korea in that it’s a useful buffer state for Po Li/China.” This is a neighboring hegemon throwing their influence around… or at least, that’s my suspicion.

Po Li’s ruling oracles aren’t exactly altruistic. It pays to gather local allies when Lingshen and Quain aren’t going anywhere, and this was apparently easier than seizing Shokuro’s agricultural base.


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Not much of a "change" exactly, but I'd like to see an update for the existing Tian pantheon, as with the exception of Shizuru, Tsukiyo, and Hei Feng, we only know little blurbs about the others. Perhaps these upcoming books contributed to Nalinivati being passed over from Impossible Lands' god roster?

The blog post did mention some "dancing gods", so perhaps we're getting an expansion to the pantheon? I've mixed feelings about that. I would like some new ones brought in, but I fear it may take space away from those already existing that I'd like to know more of.

Shadow Lodge

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keftiu wrote:

I’m getting less “Bachuan is China after the West gets it to open up” and more “Bachuan is North Korea in that it’s a useful buffer state for Po Li/China.” This is a neighboring hegemon throwing their influence around… or at least, that’s my suspicion.

Po Li’s ruling oracles aren’t exactly altruistic. It pays to gather local allies when Lingshen and Quain aren’t going anywhere, and this was apparently easier than seizing Shokuro’s agricultural base.

Yes, and? At the end of the day we're left with a conservative turn. Again.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
keftiu wrote:

I’m getting less “Bachuan is China after the West gets it to open up” and more “Bachuan is North Korea in that it’s a useful buffer state for Po Li/China.” This is a neighboring hegemon throwing their influence around… or at least, that’s my suspicion.

Po Li’s ruling oracles aren’t exactly altruistic. It pays to gather local allies when Lingshen and Quain aren’t going anywhere, and this was apparently easier than seizing Shokuro’s agricultural base.

Yes, and? At the end of the day we're left with a conservative turn. Again.

We have a single line about vague reforms in a nation that previously existed to be a nightmare caricature of Asian Communism. I don’t think there’s any need to complain without seeing more, but a change was desperately needed.

Liberty's Edge

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Darth Game Master wrote:
keftiu wrote:

Revisiting this thread with the announcement of the 2e Tian Xia books, and there's already some fascinating changes revealed in that blog post! I figured it was worth digging this thread up here, as they seem to address some topics we brought up.

Amanandar has formally declared independence from Taldor and renamed itself Linvarre. It has a unique national language, Taltien (seemingly a Taldane-Tien hybrid), and a mixed culture that pays homage to both. It seems like a fairly idealistic vision of something like a fantasy Hong Kong, which I'm all for - a place to actually be *from.* It's exciting!
...
It's interesting that the Raj title (in-setting, most likely imported from Vudra) is used here, especially with South Asian-inspired Nagajor bordering it.

(Chopped down the quote to only the parts to)

Pretty happy about Amanandar as it's more or less exactly what I was hoping. The revelation of a hybrid language is interesting; I suspect it'll turn out to be something that's existed as a while for locals but has until recently been looked down on by elites and considered merely a pidgin. A language is a dialect with an army, as they say.

As for the Valash Raj/Nagajor, both the title of Raja and nagas as part of religion/folklore have been a thing in real world Southeast Asia for a while*, so it would fit the general regional inspiration, but I do agree Vudra is the likely origin of the term.

*not assuming you were unaware of that, just pointing out that Nagajor needn't necessarily be South Asian-inspired

This helped me realize that the army, which is a building block of Taldan civilisation, has likely also fully incorporated Tian soldiers. Unity of language is a requirement for any kind of coordinated fighting.


If anyone has seen any of this season of Carnival Row, one of the subplots concerns some characters who are stuck in land that has been taken over by a sort of Quasi-Marxist communist revolution. Granted, Carnival Row is a a steampunk setting, not a quasi-Medieval period one, but so far I think they have handled it well

So I would hope that they keep the Communist revolution elements for Bachuan, but maybe draw more upon earlier "peasant" uprisings or turn of last century history, rather than straight-up North Korea analog. I think the idea is sound. We've got plenty of revolutions in Golarion that seem to only end well, but what happens when those revolutions go a bit too far and tilt back into repression.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Darth Game Master wrote:
keftiu wrote:

Revisiting this thread with the announcement of the 2e Tian Xia books, and there's already some fascinating changes revealed in that blog post! I figured it was worth digging this thread up here, as they seem to address some topics we brought up.

Amanandar has formally declared independence from Taldor and renamed itself Linvarre. It has a unique national language, Taltien (seemingly a Taldane-Tien hybrid), and a mixed culture that pays homage to both. It seems like a fairly idealistic vision of something like a fantasy Hong Kong, which I'm all for - a place to actually be *from.* It's exciting!
...
It's interesting that the Raj title (in-setting, most likely imported from Vudra) is used here, especially with South Asian-inspired Nagajor bordering it.

(Chopped down the quote to only the parts to)

Pretty happy about Amanandar as it's more or less exactly what I was hoping. The revelation of a hybrid language is interesting; I suspect it'll turn out to be something that's existed as a while for locals but has until recently been looked down on by elites and considered merely a pidgin. A language is a dialect with an army, as they say.

As for the Valash Raj/Nagajor, both the title of Raja and nagas as part of religion/folklore have been a thing in real world Southeast Asia for a while*, so it would fit the general regional inspiration, but I do agree Vudra is the likely origin of the term.

*not assuming you were unaware of that, just pointing out that Nagajor needn't necessarily be South Asian-inspired

This helped me realize that the army, which is a building block of Taldan civilisation, has likely also fully incorporated Tian soldiers. Unity of language is a requirement for any kind of coordinated fighting.

Good point, although I imagine they were at least present as allies/auxiliaries from the beginning. I vaguely recall the Dragon Empires Gazetteer mentioning local rebels who fought with the Taldans against the warlords in the area, but I could be mixing things up.

Shadow Lodge

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Yakman wrote:

i actually like Bachuan.

maybe it's because i would run it like any other place, just with a crazy ruler, but i like the Kim-dynasty-inspired disaster realm.

Yes, critical support to Bachuan against revisionism (editorial revisionism, in this case).

As it turns out, a massive privatization program (embracing both common land and state industries; textiles are explicitly mentioned) has gone through, and the whole country has been made a low-tax Special Economic Zone. Predictably this has led to massive appropriation of extensive assets by a few, including a nintey-nine year free-of-charge lease of large tracts of land around Baifen to Hao Jin.

The provinces (called "municipalities" despite no cities other than the capital and Baifen appearing on the map) have also fractured politically to the detriment of the center, but without empowerment of the people. Most of their initiatives are ineffective -- devolved public schools in particular are largely shunned by the people, and the municipalities lack the ability to make attendance compulsory.

Calendar reform from a 14-day to a 7-day workweek has been a net success, but this is somewhat thin gruel when balanced against the losses.


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I think the linvarre push for democracy is weird why would taldans who have an antagonistic history with democracy and tiens who as far as I am aware have no native concepts of democracy use the system I would have thought it would be more like the Mongols or Manchu after they conquered china and made use of native institutions and cultural norms


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Beckett99 wrote:
I think the linvarre push for democracy is weird why would taldans who have an antagonistic history with democracy and tiens who as far as I am aware have no native concepts of democracy use the system I would have thought it would be more like the Mongols or Manchu after they conquered china and made use of native institutions and cultural norms

Hello! I wrote the Linvarre section, and that bit was inspired by Taiwan's transition from a military dictatorship to a democracy. It's also important to note that there's basically one main person pushing for this form of government - the current General, Jiayi Vannisar. The idea was to present her as a young leader who'd studied abroad and probably has some ideas that are definitely incongruous with the general population. She has the support of some folks, but there's also a lot of people in the regime who think her plans are wildly off-base for the reasons you suggested, hence the inclusion of her rival, Kestral Zentria.

Generally the goal with Linvarre was to push the fact that it's a heavily changing nation after having only achieved independence four years ago, and there are a lot of ideas being thrown up against the wall to see what sticks. Taldans might have an antagonistic history with democracy, but Linvarre has been divorced from Taldor for a long time and the only major interaction with the "motherland" in recent times was Princess Eutropia Stavian finally deciding to cut Taldor's losses and let Amanandar govern itself. The hope is that players/GMs can mess around with these concepts and see how they want to challenge them or see them through. (There were also some bits about leaders in Mallaru openly rebelling against the government that didn't quite make it into the final book and could be used to subvert/support the democracy question if you so wish.)


zimmerwald1915 wrote:


As it turns out, a massive privatization program (embracing both common land and state industries; textiles are explicitly mentioned) has gone through, and the whole country has been made a low-tax Special Economic Zone. Predictably this has led to massive appropriation of extensive assets by a few, including a nintey-nine year free-of-charge lease of large tracts of land around Baifen to Hao Jin.

I heard about the planned changes to Bachuan before release, and I had low expectations for this chapter from the very beginning. If this is indeed the case, as they say here, then Bachuan will likely become the region of the world that our active table will refuse to recognize as existing in the form in which the Paizo created it.

For us it will be a territory under the rule of the Yellow Turban Rebellion or the Red Turban Rebellion, without any connection with communism.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kavlor wrote:
zimmerwald1915 wrote:


As it turns out, a massive privatization program (embracing both common land and state industries; textiles are explicitly mentioned) has gone through, and the whole country has been made a low-tax Special Economic Zone. Predictably this has led to massive appropriation of extensive assets by a few, including a nintey-nine year free-of-charge lease of large tracts of land around Baifen to Hao Jin.

I heard about the planned changes to Bachuan before release, and I had low expectations for this chapter from the very beginning. If this is indeed the case, as they say here, then Bachuan will likely become the region of the world that our active table will refuse to recognize as existing in the form in which the Paizo created it.

For us it will be a territory under the rule of the Yellow Turban Rebellion or the Red Turban Rebellion, without any connection with communism.

The stuff is more interesting that Zimmerwald puts it because he explains everything through his political lens which kinda strips story of what is happening away.

Basically:

1) it reframes Grandmother Pei correctly. 1e kinda treats Grandmother Pei as conniving villain which is messed up since she grew up on Grandfather Pei's re-education camp. 2e reframes this correctly, so focus of her portrayal is more on her being even more zealous than Pei was to fulfill Pei's idealogy. So she still did bad things, but it doesn't shift blame onto her purely. Either way, grandmother's health is ailing meaning Sun Chamber is forming into competitive factions and Bachuan was becoming a powderkeg waiting to explode into civil war between factions and rebels. Instead, other thing happens.

2) what Zimmerwald is representing through his own lens is that during these times, a mysterious "mathematician" calling herself "Shui Jing" arrived to country and charmed her way into Pei family social circles and did several proposals that went through. These three key changes where a) no longer imposing enforcement and proselytizing of Pei philosophy b) save for capital divined Bachuan into six municipalities each under rule of one of six political factions c) rewrite tax and property laws to encourage foreign investment.

What this resulted in is Hao Jin leasing Szaezan Crags to donate it to Tapestry People who were tired of living in Po Li and under its religious doctrine.

While this was happening "Shui Jing" disappeared and left behind letter that basically said "lol sorry that concealed my oracular powers". Later contact with Po Li revealed that Shui Jing is name of fictional character in Po Li story.

3) That's not end of story of tumultuous times in Bachuan either. Like later on after Shui Jing's departure, one of political faction leaders dies from accidental overdose and then releases after raising as ghost a testimonial on Pei family's dirty secrets to cause chaos to take advantage on on purpose.

In general book fleshes out Bachuan's culture and new culture class with colorful Tapestry People while leaving it as mystery of "who is this mysterious oracle from Po Li and why did she instigate these changes? for what purpose was it?"

The effects of the new political change is also understated by Zimmerwald. Because the new municipalities are indeed inefficient(I mean its run by political factions of repressive state because previous state head has started to withdraw from publicity) that one group of civilians/rebels basically negotiated with them a pardon in advance and went off freeing political prisoners who otherwise would have been languishing in bureacracy. However the key thing is, Bachuan was heading into violent civil war. The weird effect of splitting regions between factions is that it causes them to compete with each other, but also not threaten Grandmother Pei's power (even if they treat her like figurehead) because they have focus elsewhere. So was the goal to prevent civil war? Or to put factions against each other? Or to distract them from Grandmother Pei potentially leaving country in secret to head for another location for unknown purposes? That kind of stuff.

He is also kinda misrepresenting things in way that sound like its directly connected to former when its really not in this case. Like, school system in Bachuan isn't mistrusted because of privatization. Its because it was already mistrusted because it was method of indoctrination and state going back on indoctrinating doesn't cause commoners to trust school any more. It doesn't help that teaching magic is hard when under previous rulings, magical talents were target of shaming, so its hard to find teachers who trust system and are willing to work for them as well and the new municipalities aren't making good case for themselves.

Basically, they shifted Bachuan's story to be about massive changes and growing pains in repressive state where the dictator is unable to hold onto sole power anymore, the political circle is trying to do power grab, but without going for the violent civil war route. Main thing is that ruling class of Bachuan is still same as it was before, so the state being bit less repressive doesn't mean suddenly everything is good and well and it seems like people might need to empower themselves as new municipalities are trying to perform their own ineffective reformations and attract foreign businesses.

Shadow Lodge

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CorvusMask wrote:
These three key changes where a) no longer imposing enforcement and proselytizing of Pei philosophy b) save for capital divined Bachuan into six municipalities each under rule of one of six political factions c) rewrite tax and property laws to encourage foreign investment.

Regardless of whether you think this is interesting or makes a good story, the fact remains that point (c) manifestly, in the text, led to massive privatizations and appropriations of land and industry (including by foreign absentee landlords who do not even pay tax to the state), that is, to a real counter-revolution. Which, moreover, has not empowered the people, because the municipalities' respective ruling factions (these are unelaborated on) are just as unrepresentative and unaccountable as they were when they were regrouped in the Sun Chamber. That the focus is placed squarely on culture in this development does not make it better.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yup, is one of things I mean: observation is that Bachuan still isn't good place to live in and that seems to be the intended presentation and nuance, the main shift is on "why" things are bad. You could call it better than previously, but its hard to tell whether things are moving towards better direction under current flow or if eventually result is incompetent government being overthrown.

Shadow Lodge

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CorvusMask wrote:
Yup, is one of things I mean: observation is that Bachuan still isn't good place to live in and that seems to be the intended presentation and nuance, the main shift is on "why" things are bad. You could call it better than previously, but its hard to tell whether things are moving towards better direction under current flow or if eventually result is incompetent government being overthrown.

No, I don't think so. The low-tax regime and privatization program are presented as the saving graces of Shui Jing's wrecking; as positive goods. The highlighted consequences of Hao Jin's massive appropriation of land is the liberation of the Tapestry People from Po Li and their cultural influences upon the stogy Bachuanese -- not the effects of enclosure upon the people living there or the massive hit to the state's tax revenue or capacity to provide services. The highlighted consequences of the privatization of industry and the low-tax regime driving investment are economic growth and an increase in through-traffic trade -- not any effects on wages (hours are noted to have remained the same, only with days off shifting around a bit).

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I mean, one of examples of what you said is them selling empty houses in capital for businesses, and the main example of that is them trying out kick out legal drake resident out of his legal housing so they can sell house to businesses because its in good spot.

That doesn't read to me as "purely net positive". It reads to me as "yes, attracting foreign capital means investment and economic growth, but we have no reason to think the capital will go to not greedy corrupt politician purposes".

Shadow Lodge

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CorvusMask wrote:
I mean, one of examples of what you said is them selling empty houses in capital for businesses

Just the opposite. That's not privatization of public property, that's eminent domain of private property (for later disbursement to more favored clients) by the state -- an example of the bad old practices continuing. The private property right remains the unalloyed good; only here, it is honored in the breach. We are told that if the private property right is upheld in court, that would be a good sign for the social development of the country.

Paizo Employee Community and Social Media Specialist

This is touching on IRL politics. I'm going to ask that the debate be stopped here. Feel free to discuss other things about the setting, but be aware that any further political talk will get removed.


Cultivation is mentioned in Quain do you think that is how they refer to class levels or do you think it something unique to Quain?


Beckett99 wrote:
Cultivation is mentioned in Quain do you think that is how they refer to class levels or do you think it something unique to Quain?

My guess is a bit of both. Cultivation is a good explanation for how class levels function, so no need to throw that rationale away. We also know there are going to be at least two cultivation-flavored options in the Character Guide, one of which is a new magus hybrid study.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Cultivation genre seems to be about mixing up mystical medicine and poisons to enhance your physical and spiritual abilities, so in pathfinder case its probably combination of flavoring up level ups, consumables and just unique abilities/martial arts.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Along with meditation and stuff typical to the Monk class. For better or for worse.


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I have to admit, the Star Titan's Grave going from 'just' an interplanetary kaiju crash site to a source of cool space technology for the Valash Raj isn't something I would've ever come up with... but it rules! Very glad that Tian Xia has a Numeria of its own, of a sort.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I mean its also mutating radiation zone kind of thing, and funny thing is that the people in nation don't seem to be aware of Star Titan having animated as undead x'D

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