|
One thought: how do people feel about the “Tian” prefix on all the ethnic groups? I’m pretty unenthused about Tian Xia being borrowed from IRL wholecloth the way it has been, and I’d personally prefer if the various ethnic groups were just Min, Sing, etc.
I see it as a Western/Avistani habit of calling people over there by the name of the continent (Tian) and then the name of the ethnic group. Pretty easy to change to using the proper name without the Tian prefix. Makes more sense when it is people of the continent talking about each other.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But one question that occurs to me is why this is done only with Tian Xia. On that basis, I would wonder why there were never any references to Mwangi-Zenj, Mwangi-Bekyar, Mwangi-Bonuwat, and so on. Would the only reason be that these names are so much longer than those of the Tian ethnicities?
I guess one thing they should do in a future Tian Xia book is define "Tian" in the Tien language as something like "people".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, can't think of much I would change, mostly because I came too late to Pathfinder to get the bulk of the material for the region that was made for 1E. I just generally want more fleshing out the way Mwangi Expanse got in its book. Oh, and can we finally get Vanara as a PC ancestry? Looking forward to being able to make a party of Human Cloistered Cleric of Irori, Vanara Fighter (with free archetype to Magus, and also picking up Martial Artist at least), Orc Boar-Beastkin Monk, and Iruxi/Grippli (can't decide which is a better fit) Ranger. :DI love your plans. I don't know what base ancestry for Sandy, but I feel like you could consider versatile Undine heritage as a solidly thematic option.
Well, the idea I had for Sha Wujing was that he's basically a kappa before Tang Sanzang and co stop him from killing people to feast on, and the two closest ancestries currently available which resemble kappa as far as I'm concerned are Iruxi (a.k.a. Lizardfolk), and Grippli. The former does happen to have a decent number of the traits of kappa, though certainly not all. Grippli on the other hand, are less physically dominating than the inspirational yokai, but have other traits that could fit. Of course, I could go with the old cartoon look and go either Human Undine Heritage, or Azarketi and present a "suitable-for-all-audiences" version.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
EDIT: Had a brilliant idea for a post, realized I’d posted exactly that in this thread already. Ignore me!
|
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is less of a change and more of an addition that I think would be useful, but a 'starter town' in the vein of Otari on Starstone Isle or Sandpoint in Varisia would greatly benefit folks who want to jump into classic adventuring in Tian Xia but don't know where to start - support it with some fun NPCs, tons of nearby plot hooks, published adventures and maybe even an Adventure Path and it would be fantastic.
As to where you could place it... Shokuro, maybe? It's sort of a crossroads of thematically and stylistically different Tien nations and could be easy to transition to and from.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really like that idea, although my first pick would have probably been near Goka.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd kind of like to see two starter towns: one inside the Successor States, and another one more remote from them, so your character can come from a place somewhat untouched by the big conflict. Minkai is probably the best candidate there, or maybe Xa Hoi or Hongal. In the former's case, having an actual Pallet Town simulacrum transplanted into Pathfinder's setting would be such a fun thing, especially with Seifter's Eldamon on the horizon.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
One place I hope to see more of: Nagajor, hopefully in a nuanced manner. Non-human nations are always a treat, and I think the unique patron-client relation the Naga have with the Nagaji (and the note that Nagaji will absolutely depose a tyrannical Naga) is a fascinating foundation for a culture on Golarion. One of the reasons I want playable Sekmin is because they stand so apart from human civilization, and I think the Nagaji have a more polite version of this - theirs is a proud and ancient system that works for them, thank you very much.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rage of Elements has me convinced we're seeing Tian Xia relatively soon in some capacity, and it has me curious: with several thematic Ancestries (Nagaji, Vanara, Vishkanya) being rolled into the Impossible Lands book, what's left for one that tackles this continent? I'm struggling to imagine much more than Samsarans and Wayangs.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rage of Elements has me convinced we're seeing Tian Xia relatively soon in some capacity, and it has me curious: with several thematic Ancestries (Nagaji, Vanara, Vishkanya) being rolled into the Impossible Lands book, what's left for one that tackles this continent? I'm struggling to imagine much more than Samsarans and Wayangs.
Well besides potential of just completely new ancestries(heck they could even introduce casmaron themed ancestries for all we know, like how we are getting one of Vudra article mentioned ancestries in Impossible Lands) or heritages or even just more ancestry feats...
Kanabo (half ja noi oni hobgoblins) did get playable stats in starfinder so they could be fun thing to represent? Kappa ancestry? One of Tian Xia's darkland caverns has "blind amphibious oracles". Kami related ancestry could also maybe work?(I'm still miffed they forgot to give bestiary kami Senzar) Shaguang, Wanshou, Shenmen, Valashmai Jungle(noteworthy: evidence suggests ruins there were populated by reptilian humanoids two to three size of humans. So likely supposed to be saurians, but I don't know if it was ever confirmed) and Wall of Heaven seem like easy locations to introduce new ancestries too. They could also pull surprise and do something not strictly Asian mythology related (I'd be shocked if we got ogre ancestry :p The Tian Xia's zodiac does note that The Ogre constellation one isn't considered inherently evil)
Xidao is also fairly good location to introduce ancestries for because "Major Races: locathahs (also cecaelias, krakens, merrows, sahuagin, and tritons)" its location for several statted ancestries from Blood of Sea
There is also of course possibility of "Use rage of elements to introduce metal and wood genies and introduce versatile heritages for geniekin in dragon empires book"
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oni Tieflings are going to move a lot of copies, I’m sure. I hope the Impossible Lands book gives us Asura-spawn.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oni Tieflings are going to move a lot of copies, I’m sure. I hope the Impossible Lands book gives us Asura-spawn.Ah right, I forgot we didn't have linage feats for all 1e tiefling heritages yet :O (we need also the sahkil one at some point :D)
Luis has paired Sakhil Tieflings with Couatl Aasimar in his Arcadia homebrew; I’d love for that to make it into canon. I have a Couatl Aasimar Monk from that continent that I’m dying to flesh out; Vibrant Huetzca, a blessed boundball star!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
:O Okay now I want snek aasimar too
As an old Eberron fan, where Couatl are the most prominent type of celestial, I’m all over the feathery snakes. There’s an incredibly niche Eberron race, the Shulassakar, who are feathered serpentfolk bound to an ancient holy flame… you could probably approximate them with an Aasimar Nagaji/Vishkanya/Sekmin.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, wood and metal planes coming in Rage of Elements (coupled with Yoon still being the iconic kineticist) has me thinking that something Tian Xia-centric is imminent in the back half of 2023.
I was certain we'd hear something more concrete at GenCon, given how hush-hush Paizo staff was wrt Tian Xia questions at PaizoCon, but that didn't pan out exactly.
I lowkey wonder if one or both of those planes have a sudden and tangible presence on Golarion, and more specifically in Tian Xia - given they come from the Wuxing - and I for one would not mind if someplace like Amamandar got wiped off the map by way of a huge outgrowth of greenery from the Plane of Wood.
(I'm sure there are less invasive ways of rectifying places like it and Bachuan, but also - wouldn't it be cool to explore a place like that? Tian Xia could use a place akin to the Worldwound or Gravelands anyway, and being linked to one of the newly-revealed elemental planes is very distinct from an Abyssal hole in reality or an undead-infested wasteland.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What were the next year's ap hints again given at panels? I forgot them so I can't begin to make guesses ^^;
Not that I saw, but with Gatewalkers and Stolen Fate both being “travel” APs, I’m convinced next year’s six-parter is outside the Inner Sea.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd love to see more not-European spiritualism.
"Person what worships god(s)" just doesn't encapsulate the diversity of real-world faiths. So, some well-researched-and-sensitively-written animism and/or ancestor worship would be really cool.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd love to see more not-European spiritualism.
"Person what worships god(s)" just doesn't encapsulate the diversity of real-world faiths. So, some well-researched-and-sensitively-written animism and/or ancestor worship would be really cool.
One of the big reasons I’m pulling for a Shaman class is exactly this. The d20 tradition largely treats player faith as monotheism, and while PF2 has added Pantheons, the wider diversity of spiritual beliefs hasn’t gotten the same chance.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, critical support to Bachuan against revisionism (editorial revisionism, in this case).i actually like Bachuan.
maybe it's because i would run it like any other place, just with a crazy ruler, but i like the Kim-dynasty-inspired disaster realm.
I'm quite fond of the idea proposed in another thread that one of the new Elemental Planes has exploded into the region that was Bachuan, personally. What's there as of 1e just isn't interesting to me, and doesn't really feel much like part of Golarion, either.
|
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I wouldn't explode the region though, mostly because I prefer it when writers turn something previously uninteresting into interesting rather than "erase it and start from blank slate".
LN with LE ruler does kinda come with implication of the evil ruler being behind everything terrible in the country which probably isn't most nuanced take(not that Bachuan is particularly nuanced fictional communist dictatorship in first place), but that is honestly something Bachuan shares with Galt's worm problems. Bachuan IS very much just Tian Xia's galt equivalent, a state that is mostly isolated from others but is aggressively spreading ideology to surrounding nations.
I'm not knowledge enough on subject to comment on how to write communist dictatorship that doesn't come across like red scare propaganda, so I'm not going to attempt giving advice on how to add more nuance to nation besides lot of retconning ^^;
But on fantasy side yeah Bachuan is currently kinda lacking in "what makes this country fantastical" department, lemme sum original write up in single paragraph: "Lung Wa was corrupt and oppressive, there was peasant revolt and new governance was formed in direct response to old one, country become increasingly autocratic towards end of founder's life which might be because of machinations of the person that is now the current ruler and Bachuan is currently possibly gearing towards another country". Like its not even really a low fantasy story either, its just straight up alternate historical fiction. Its not hard to add something fantastical to country though just because each nation in tian xia is almost equally as underdeveloped.
So is there anything positive about Bachaun despite all the issues?
Peijia the capital of Bachuan has some potential to me. It's massive planned metropolis intended to house 200,000 people but actually housing only 50,000 people. I'm not sure what this is reference to(It rings a bell) but I'm sure its referencing real life city. Either way idea of large city with thin population and mostly abandoned buildings has nice amount of depressive melancholy to it. It leads to 1) possibility of unusual urban adventures. Like you could have exploration/detective adventure in city environment where you are trying to locate single person from super sparsely populated area 2) possibility of buildings being inhabited by beings who aren't strictly speaking citizens. Usually abandoned city explorations are ruin explorations, so I think there is lot of surprising things writers could do in this scenario.
Szaezan Crags is mostly just "fringes where there being be lung wa caches left and government pays people to find them" but mention of rising population of ogres intrigues me just because I'm curious if Tian Xia's ogres are notable different from inner sea counterparts. I mean at least The Ogre constellation isn't seen as pure evil, so that implies that Tian Xia's ogres have somewhat better reputation even if they are seen as dangerous?
Ten Thousand Summer Palace is the final of three locales mentioned in dragon empires gazetteer and its absolutely fascinating location. So it was winter palace that was favored retreat for many of the past emperors, but during revolution its mage staff closest it down and revolution never managed to enter the palace. Fast forward hundred years and only person who ever managed to get past gates and out alive muttered “...beautiful...terrible...” before they died.
Like... There is so much potential with wacky shenanigans in the palace. Implication is that sorcerers and clerics staffing palace were so high level that Bachuan either still hasn't successfully invaded palace with army or was forced to give up. There is potential of Palace being completely self sustained location(that's a lot of clerics to create food), or maybe the high leveled spellcasters teleport outside and bring supplies in or maybe something terrifying happened inside and its inhabited by fiends now. Only thing we know for sure is that apparently its really fancy inside but also terrifying.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How do folks feel about Jinin? “Elves traveled here from the other side of the world and were so impressed with human samurai that they decided to emulate them” has always been a really, really strange pitch to me - elves couldn’t come up with the idea of honor before they met Fantasy Asian folks?
Is there some nuance to it I’m unaware of, or are they really a nation of elven fanboys?
Didn't know about this. The idea of a group of eleven weebs made me chortle.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bachuan just blatantly being "what if North Korea was in Golarion" has always struck me as very unnuanced and kind of unpleasant. (And yeah Corvus, Peijia's population thing is a reference to Pyongyang). There's nothing there that really seems to make it that interesting of a place beyond the sort of "driving past a car wreck" feeling that a lot of North Korea stuff elicits in USAmericans. (I also wish there was just a more nuanced interpretation of communism in Golarion in general - it's Bachuan and what, that random village in Varisia that's secretly a cult or something?)
It needs to have something more interesting as a hook to justify how kind of uncreative the whole place seems. It feels like a place with a very limited amount of stories you can tell in it. (That third palace is intriguing though.)
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bachuan just blatantly being "what if North Korea was in Golarion" has always struck me as very unnuanced and kind of unpleasant. (And yeah Corvus, Peijia's population thing is a reference to Pyongyang). There's nothing there that really seems to make it that interesting of a place beyond the sort of "driving past a car wreck" feeling that a lot of North Korea stuff elicits in USAmericans. (I also wish there was just a more nuanced interpretation of communism in Golarion in general - it's Bachuan and what, that random village in Varisia that's secretly a cult or something?)
It needs to have something more interesting as a hook to justify how kind of uncreative the whole place seems. It feels like a place with a very limited amount of stories you can tell in it. (That third palace is intriguing though.)
Well I guess it also has benefit of being sort of location you could run "There is no war in Ba Sing Se" reference in.
But yeah, vast majority of tian xia's nations are underdeveloped due to having one page write up and never talked about in another source again, but Bachuan extra suffers from it because they used majority of page to make references to real life history without really adding anything new to mix. And since Bachuan hasn't been touched again in adventure or lore books, that means problems with it never got rectified or addressed.
If there is anything I can add that might be nuanced is, for better or worse, that Bachuan gazetteer doesn't actually say that system doesn't work in the country. To be specific, gazetter doesn't make any comments about how the system actually works on practice, it only focuses on Grandmother Pei ruthlessly eliminating political rivals, aggressively spreading ideology and consolidating power to herself. So outside of dissidents being silenced and citizens being afraid of government, neither primer or gazetteer mentions either good quality of life or poor quality of life.
This also kinda makes it hard to tell if Bachuan's communism is supposed to be inspired by specific variant of Communism or just writer's idea of communism in general: it doesn't really say anything about communism. The main thing gazeeter says is "in theory, theoretically", which is probably supposed to be readed to imply that in practice it didn't work like that, but if theory didn't pan out, nothing about article explain what actually was the result. I don't really want to speak of writer's intentions, but its extremely easy to read as "Well of course I don't need to spell out what happened, everyone knows communism is bad"
One bizarre aspect of this is it doesn't really explain the religion ban in golarion context. like yeah there is the reason of "it was used as tool by state to oppress people!" but in case of Rahadoum they are explicitly opposed to powerful beings like gods influencing people while Bachuan's case completely ignores context of gods actually being known as existing in the setting. So like, did Grandfather Pei believe gods gave corrupt celestial mandate to Lung Wa or what? Religion ban really doesn't make sense as written in Bachuan because plenty of golarion religions have really nothing to do with governments and they tend to operate on their own beliefs as spreading their god as role models.
(honestly religion ban is something that I think definitely needs to be retconned because I think trying to explain it better sounds kinda hard unless they want to turn Bachuan into combination of galt and rahadoum or something :P)
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bachuan as it currently stands doesn’t feel like Golarion to me, is I guess where I stand.
Cheliax is an evil faux-European empire, but they aren’t just nefarious fantasy Brits or Spaniards. Galt draws heavily on the French Revolution and its tragedies, but spices them up with the supernatural - and more importantly, the Reign of Terror is centuries removed from a modern reader.
But Bachuan? Bachuan is imported almost wholly from a nation on Earth today, and leans on horrors (the Cultural Revolution, the Korean War and its aftermath, the Killing Fields) well within living memory. If Paizo wouldn’t plop Nazi Germany down into their setting, then I don’t know why doing it for an Asian nation is any better.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But Bachuan? Bachuan is imported almost wholly from a nation on Earth today, and leans on horrors (the Cultural Revolution, the Korean War and its aftermath, the Killing Fields) well within living memory. If Paizo wouldn’t plop Nazi Germany down into their setting, then I don’t know why doing it for an Asian nation is any better.
I will admit here: One reason I'm bit vague is that I can't tell if I'm missing lot of context because I don't know enough so I feel awkward with addressing Bachuan. My main confusion here is that I don't really get feeling of North Korea from Bachuan.
What I got from Bachuan is Lenin and Stalin dealio <_< Popular ruler gets replaced by ruler who performs ruthless political purges in the government.
I haven't gotten feeling of Mao's "kill all intellectuals and capitalists" revolution from Bachuan's description from dragon empires gazetter, the only mention of rebellion is the one that over threw Lung Wa's governance from country and from description its not described as particularly brutal and it seems like oppressed overthrew opressors.
Korean thing on otherhand confuses me because Bachuan is populated by tian-shu who have chinese names iirc, so it reads to me as combination of history of Soviet Union with communist china. Only similarity to korea I can see is that Bachuan is saber rattling with Hwanggot aka the fantasy korea, but Bachuan was never part of Hwanggot previously like how Korea split into north and south.
And Kambodia's Killing Fields confuses me because neither if Bachuan gazetter or primer implies genocide got performed, that or I'm dense and I missed implications
THAT SAID, I agree it doesn't really feel like Golarion nation from write up, simply because it really lacks some sort of twist other than "its a communist dictatorship"
EDIT: OKAY I just noticed line that mentioned re-education camps, so now all of that makes sense to me x'D Frick I kept missing that line
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
...Okay, so when I finally noticed the line I was reading, I realized I missed something else that I really really dislike about Bachuan now and doesn't make sense to me and makes me ask "WHY"
So bit of history here: 7106 was when Lung Wa collapsed, 7168 was when Grandfather Pei died and rulership of Bachuan passed on.(current year when book was released was 7211 so 4711 aka 2011. So Grandmother Pei has ruled for 43 making her 72 years old in 7211 and now 83 years old if she is still alive in 2022.) So after Lung Wa collapsed, the corrupt administrators of the area tried to keep control for unknown amount of time. After unknown amount of time a peasant philosopher who became to be known as as Grandfather Pei inspired a rebellion and after unknown amount of time rebellion out threw the corrupt administrators and priests. Grandfather Pei ruled country for unknown number of total years since we don't have exact date when rebellion was over. So okay, he died when he was 101 and so assuming rebellion didn't take years and rebellion started quickly after collapse of Lung Wa, he would have ruled country about 60 years right? Wel either way he was 39 when Lung Wa collapsed.
So Grandfather Pei supposedly got more autocratic only after marrying his sixth wife who is now known as Grandmother Pei, but apparently early in history of post rebellion Bachuan there were "strenuous re-education camps"? I guess intention is that they were "poorly thought out well intenoned" thing but I don't really buy that since re-education camps are always autocratic :P But oki, this contradictionary and kinda scummy thing aside(so was he bad or not?), Pu Yae Men (grandmother Pei's original name) was daughter of family that survived the camp. Grandafther Pei died in 101, Grandmother Pei was 29 when he died and they married when she was 16.
Sidenote, Bachuan's timeline is confusing. I have no clue when the "early years of republic was" but oki, if we assume that Pei ruled for about 60 years, easy to assume that was 50 years ago? So that still kinda leads confusing matter of "so what, did her parents meet the camp and have their only child when they were 50 years old? Or does writer mean Pei become ruler about twenty thirty years ago?" but I digress.
So gazetteer is essentially saying that 85 year old man took 16 year old girl as his sixth wife, whose family went through re-education camp, and then blames her for apparently charming the 85 old man(who already had five previous wifes during his life apparently), and over course of 13 years corrupting his rule to be more autocratic, and developing harsher version of original idealogy?
...I mean, sure the "hyper competent since from young age" is a trope and queen Ileosa was good villain despite charming old man for his riches, but... This is much grosser because it seems to imply she was just beautiful girl that is somehow cause of all evil in nations when apparently her friendly husband had run re-education camps. What?
Yeah Bachuan definitely needs retcons and rewrites x'D
(I also get now where veiled master suggestion came from, because that is certainly series of unlikely events. Another way to look at it is "Grandmother Pei developed her stricter ideology from her brainwashed parents, so she is evil created by Grandfather Pei")
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bachuan just blatantly being "what if North Korea was in Golarion" has always struck me as very unnuanced and kind of unpleasant. (And yeah Corvus, Peijia's population thing is a reference to Pyongyang). There's nothing there that really seems to make it that interesting of a place beyond the sort of "driving past a car wreck" feeling that a lot of North Korea stuff elicits in USAmericans. (I also wish there was just a more nuanced interpretation of communism in Golarion in general - it's Bachuan and what, that random village in Varisia that's secretly a cult or something?)
It needs to have something more interesting as a hook to justify how kind of uncreative the whole place seems. It feels like a place with a very limited amount of stories you can tell in it. (That third palace is intriguing though.)
well... there's lots of nuance there if you incorporate the nuance in North Korea and move away from the stereotypes.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
(I also wish there was just a more nuanced interpretation of communism in Golarion in general - it's Bachuan and what, that random village in Varisia that's secretly a cult or something?)
Abken, and since when was it a cult rather than a commune?
You can (and I do) read the Inner Sea Firebrands as an analogue to the First International minus the social democrats/communists (so, including the mutualists, anarchists, and pure and simple trade unionists). Which, since Grandfather Pei and his contemporaries in Lung Wa were able to build a state on revolutionary-social-democratic (read: "Communist") lines, implies rather greater theoretical sophistication/diversity on their part than among Jubannich and his contemporaries (or indeed modern revolutionaries) in the Inner Sea, who have stayed mostly in the liberal/radical/anarchist lane.
With the success, more or less, of the abolitionist campaign in the Inner Sea there ought to be a shift in focus, emancipation-of-labor-wise, to the trade union and worker-cooperative movements in evidence (if deemphasized hitherto) in Varisia, Andoran, Galt, Ravounel, and Vidrian. You could even introduce social democratic parties in Andoran or Galt or Vidrian if you wanted (Ravounel does not have elections or universal suffrage, the oligarchic provisional government having grabbed power for itself and everyone else having more or less acquiesced in this).
Religion ban really doesn't make sense as written in Bachuan because plenty of golarion religions have really nothing to do with governments and they tend to operate on their own beliefs as spreading their god as role models.
You usually get state atheism in new states from one or both of two sources: one, the church(es) were institutionally bound up with the old state and worked to legitimize it, so get caught up in campaigns around extirpating the old state; or two, the church(es) were institutionally strong in themselves and for whatever reason competed with and did not support the new state for temporal power. I see little conceptual problem with either reason in Bachuan's case, but neither has exactly been fleshed out.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Which CRB Ancestries are on the continent?
I know Humans are obviously all over, and we know about the elves in Jinin (who need a second look, IMO), but I don't know that I've heard any mention of dwarves, halflings, gnomes, orcs/half-orcs, or goblins. Did the Quest for Sky somehow miss Tian Xia entirely?
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was wondering about them too - seems like the 'core' ancestries (CRB+APG), that we know of, would be humans, elves, ratfolk, tengu, kobolds (which allegedly exist in an imperial form, but don't think we've seen any yet) and catfolk (the LOAG mentions an ethnicity of them in the Valashmai Jungle, the Lyashtaki).
I believe places like Goka have populations of the other core ancestries, but I don't know if any of those are 'native' to Tian Xia.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Did the Quest for Sky somehow miss Tian Xia entirely?
You know, it actually might have? As I recall the Darklands below Tian Xia are notably less comprehensive, and there are few if any connections between to the Avestani/Garundi Darklands. There's that quartz tunnel thing of Azaersi's iirc?
Oh, and I guess the Jinin elves got there via a tunnel too, didn't they.... Funny that elves managed to take a tunnel somewhere that dwarves apparently missed, unless they are around in small number
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Did the Quest for Sky somehow miss Tian Xia entirely?You know, it actually might have? As I recall the Darklands below Tian Xia are notably less comprehensive, and there are few if any connections between to the Avestani/Garundi Darklands. There's that quartz tunnel thing of Azaersi's iirc?
Oh, and I guess the Jinin elves got there via a tunnel too, didn't they.... Funny that elves managed to take a tunnel somewhere that dwarves apparently missed, unless they are around in small number
I mean, there is whole continent between Avistan and Tian Xia (poor Casmaron) so logically speaking if dorfs were from darklands under avistan, at'd best they would be over at Casmaron but not at Tian Xia
(so it'd be elves that are weird for traveling extra mile)
THAT SAID, this is what dragon empires book said, regarding modern dwarves though:
"Very few larger groups of dwarves travel to Tian Xia, although stories of extended families making the underground journey through the Darklands persist." So it would have been theoretically possible, but didn't happen for whatever reason.
Which CRB Ancestries are on the continent?
I know Humans are obviously all over, and we know about the elves in Jinin (who need a second look, IMO), but I don't know that I've heard any mention of dwarves, halflings, gnomes, orcs/half-orcs, or goblins. Did the Quest for Sky somehow miss Tian Xia entirely?
But yeah, dwarves, halflings, gnomes and half-orcs(apparently the half-orc who move over there tend to find more acceptance in nagajor) were listed in dragon empires on "foreigners" section(well all core ancestries were but book specifies which ones had actual presence and which ones only had inviduals or small families present). Apparently goblins and bugbears are rare in tian xia as well even though hobgoblins aren't
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, there is whole continent between Avistan and Tian Xia (poor Casmaron) so logically speaking if dorfs were from darklands under avistan, at'd best they would be over at Casmaron but not at Tian Xia
(so it'd be elves that are weird for traveling extra mile)
THAT SAID, this is what dragon empires book said, regarding modern dwarves though:
"Very few larger groups of dwarves travel to Tian Xia, although stories of extended families making the underground journey through the Darklands persist." So it would have been theoretically possible, but didn't happen for whatever reason.
We know some of the other continents had dwarves beneath them - there's at least two Sky Citadels in Garund, Qadira (technically the westernmost bit of Casmaron) has the native Paraheen, Arcadia's dwarves are pals with orcs - so they aren't wholly an Avistani thing, but it does seem to be where most of them popped out.
I honestly like that Tian Xia is dealing with such a different Ancestry palette! Gimme more parties with Hobgoblins, Kitsune, Nagaji, Samsarans, Tengu, Wayangs, and Ysoki, please.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
According to Legends, specifically the Taargick writeup: there are dwarves in Tian Xia (and Casmaron, and Arcadia [and probably Sarusan as well but the writeup didn't mention it]). They have their own legends of the Quest For Sky. I expect that they would be Uncommon in Tian Xia as a whole, but possibly Common in a specific country/ Meta Region.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
According to Legends, specifically the Taargick writeup: there are dwarves in Tian Xia (and Casmaron, and Arcadia [and probably Sarusan as well but the writeup didn't mention it]). They have their own legends of the Quest For Sky. I expect that they would be Uncommon in Tian Xia as a whole, but possibly Common in a specific country/ Meta Region.
Which gives us a fun guessing game - where to stick Tian Xia's dwarves?
I know D&D and Shadowrun have both drawn on the Koropokuru, an Ainu (indigenous inhabitants of the northern Japanese islands) mythical people who were short and hairy, so hiding them in the Forest of Spirits or some remote bit of Minkai might be fun. Are there any other notable Asian stories of little people?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm I wonder if that means they decided all core ancestries are global or if they are thinking more of "well there could be tian xian darkland dwarf community or families descending from people who moved there"
I think the idea has been that you can probably find all the CRB Ancestries on every continent, but they won't necessarily all be Common there.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not a "little people" pull necessarily, but you could have some fun with a mountainous Holtaksen dwarf ethnicity based out of a place like Zi Ha - dwarves with Tibetan-style dzong fortresses, living alongside Samsaran monks? I'd be down.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But one question that occurs to me is why this is done only with Tian Xia. On that basis, I would wonder why there were never any references to Mwangi-Zenj, Mwangi-Bekyar, Mwangi-Bonuwat, and so on. Would the only reason be that these names are so much longer than those of the Tian ethnicities?I guess one thing they should do in a future Tian Xia book is define "Tian" in the Tien language as something like "people".
So year late, but realized nobody followed up on this: yeah there is actual in book reason for it
"The people of Tian Xia symbolize these shared beliefs and convictions by appending the word “Tian” itself to their ethnicity, but in many more ways, these seven groups are themselves as diverse as any grouping of various races."
So it seems to be written as "show of solidarity" thing. That said the shared belief was about honor and respect for dragons which is one of those bit of stereotypical things so eh.
That said, book later makes this contradiction "the tianjans—the “heaven people,” also known as aasimars." which makes it sound like its prefix for people.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm another thing to note:
There might be native human people to Tian Xia who aren't Tian?
I had forgotten that Jade Regent revealed that Osogen Grasslands in Minkai is home to Utare and Yumogo "barbarians"(shamanistic people keep getting demeaned it seems), so that does imply that Tian-Namescheme does have further cultural implications.
What confuses matter to me however is that one NPC who is noted to be from Utare people is noted to be Tian-Min, while none of Yumugo bandits are noted to be of specific Tian-prefix group.
So I can't tell if that is case of "Garund continent has both Mwangi and Garund people who are their own ethnicities with their own subcultures and ethnicities" aka "not all native humans on Tian Xia are Tian, but all Tian-prefix people strongly identify as Tian" or are Utare and Yumogo are just different cultures part of same Tian ethnicity? Like it could be error since its only noted on one character's part or it could not be.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm another thing to note:
There might be native human people to Tian Xia who aren't Tian?
I had forgotten that Jade Regent revealed that Osogen Grasslands in Minkai is home to Utare and Yumogo "barbarians"(shamanistic people keep getting demeaned it seems), so that does imply that Tian-Namescheme does have further cultural implications.
What confuses matter to me however is that one NPC who is noted to be from Utare people is noted to be Tian-Min, while none of Yumugo bandits are noted to be of specific Tian-prefix group.
So I can't tell if that is case of "Garund continent has both Mwangi and Garund people who are their own ethnicities with their own subcultures and ethnicities" aka "not all native humans on Tian Xia are Tian, but all Tian-prefix people strongly identify as Tian" or are Utare and Yumogo are just different cultures part of same Tian ethnicity? Like it could be error since its only noted on one character's part or it could not be.
Even looking past the Tian- naming scheme (my growing gut instinct is that it just means person/people, and that Lung Wa pushed for it to try and unify all ethnicities under the empire), the thought of people in Minkai who aren't the traditional Min culture is super interesting. Could we see fantasy Ainu? I'd certainly hope so.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Utare and Yumogu portrayal are something I want to add to list of things I hope to see changed in 2e.
Reading minkai article from ap, it is decently interesting yeah, but uh Osogen grasslands part it gives me sargava book flashbacks. It's very clearly demeaning. I dunno if writers were going for "this is how local governance sees them" or for "these are where you find barbarian class characters in Minkai", but either way, let me just show what I'm talking about.
"The Osogen Grasslands: Near the Forest of Spirits, Osogen is inhabited by two kindred of barbarians: the Utare, fishermen and hunters who keep to the coasts, and the Yumogu, proud nomadic herders with a reputation for deceit. Both peoples were slowly driven back to the grasslands by the Minkai people in a centuries-long struggle that largely subsided before the rise of the Teikoku Shogunate. The Yumogu and the Utare have never been able to seriously challenge the might of the empire since then, but the southern reaches of Osogen have been contested between generations of settlers and barbarians. Under imperial law the Osogen Grasslands are considered part of Sakakabe Province, but the region’s governors have long taken a stance of disinterest and noninterference with the barbarians, so long as they don’t intrude upon the more civilized south."
Adventure itself(the bandit group that has taken fortress in beginning of adventure are Yumogu) doesn't really tell anything about them besides that Utare are "relatively peaceful". The "Tian-Min" Utare "shaman"(druid worshipping Lady Nanbyo) was evil renegade.
I think I have reason to be very confident that when we get 2e article on Minkai, we'll probably learn more about Utare and Yumogu and they will get portrayed in more nuanced manner than this :P