If there was an Archer-version of the Gunslinger or a spear-using Swashbuckler, I'd probably add them to the list.
Of course there is a crossbow-using gunslinger (crossbow ace) and an archer swashbuckler (arrow champion) neither of which sucks. A spear using swashbuckler does suck, but there's a spear fighter which gets the swashbuckler's parry and riposte, the ability which is the classes' signature. With spear dancing style/spiral I think you have something close enough to a spear swashbuckler there.
/s/crossbow ace/bolt ace. Duh.
I guess my point is, in my mind it's general better to take so many of the other Advanced Weapon Training options the Sacred Weapon option.Well, my point, and this is your point too, is that Fighter's abundance of Feats and other Class Abilities make it a powerful option as a Class that doesn't use Spells.
My subpoint, and this is your subpoint, too, is that there are Advanced Weapon Training options are particularly powerful and/or useful.
So it is only my sub-sub-point you disagree with, that Focused Weapon is lovely. You think other things are better, okay. But you and I both outlined a good use for Focused Weapon: to better exploit weapons that normally do poor damage but have other lovely traits.
Personally, I am generally uncomfortable with the proposition you are advancing here: the idea that there are generally better options. I feel like there are many ways to achieve powerful effects that are cool and make players smile, and choosing Feats, Spells, and Class Abilities is more of a matter of what works better for your character and your playing style rather than a matter of choosing what's generally better.
And that is precisely why I like Fighter so much in the first place: its ability to fit what works best for the player. And I think that is your reason, too.
Sure we agree on fighters being good and AWT being awesome. Our only point is where we disagree on the value specifically of Focused Weapon(sacred weapon damage).
I think you're over valuing it, because even on a weapon with terrible damage dice it's not actually much of an increase in damage per hit. And since the fighter does have a plethora of options for increasing damage through feats, I personally feel that spending the opportunity cost of AWT on Focused Weapon is not a good value proposition. However it is an option, and on some builds I might consider it. Especially if I care less about the other options I previously mentioned. Maybe I want to have a less than good reflex or will save. Maybe I don't care for any Teamwork feats that I can use without having my ally have the feat. It's just when I am generically thinking about the cost benefit ratio, the few extra points of damage (on top of the generally high damage you will already deal) versus those other options...just doesn't seem like a good deal to me.
That you disagree is fine. Some people value DPR over anything else, so that they would rather have 5 extra points of damage than have a +5 to will saves.
Favourite character without spells? Rogue.
I know everyone will point out that if you rate characters based on consistent damage output they suck, but in a low-mid level campaign with a mix of combat, social and intrige they get so many skill points they can get involved in everything.
I'm playing a rogue (with a dip of gunslinger) in War for the Crown, and loving it.
Is there a rogue archetype that exchanges sneak attack for something more reliable in terms of providing an attack/damage boost?
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If Fighters had 6+Int mod skill points and perception as a class skill then I would pick them as well.Cunning as a feat. You have feats. Advanced weapon gives you 2 more. Armour gives you one more. Perception is a trait to grab. You can even go human to make up grabbing cunning and also gain +1 there. That's 7 plus int if you're all in and it cost a single feat and trait.
It's no longer a valid complaint.
If you wrote this as: You can take a feat that gives you -3 to will saves, initiative, & AC, for +4 skill ranks per level it would sound far less appealing. There's a lot of good options for feats, advanced weapon training, and advanced armor training. You can in no way call that a minor investment.
Is there a rogue archetype that exchanges sneak attack for something more reliable in terms of providing an attack/damage boost?I usually incorporate a few methods of making the SA Damage happen more reliably, and there are many.
There aren't a lot of monsters that are immune to Sneak Attack Damage in PF1. That was much more a thing in 3.5. Incorporeal Undead, Swarms, Oozes. Anything else? Elementals?
Yeah, there are ways that can make it happen. But it looks like there aren't any archetypes that trade away sneak attack for something that is just generally more reliable.
I think that would have been a great archetype to have, although I don't know if they would still consider it to be rogue since that seems to basically be the one thing almost all rogues regardless of archetype have, even if it's reduced progression.
But I would have liked to have seen a rogue that got say, Studied Target. Or Inquisitor like abilities.
And now I'm thinking about it like what if I just reframed my mindset a bit, is there anything that the Rogue class can do that a Inquisitor or Investigator couldn't do about as well.
Rogue is basically sneak attack + rogue talents. Talents are kind of a mixed bag.
But I'm just going to start thinking of the Investigator as a Rogue archetype that replaces sneak attack.
Dreamthief rogues replace sneak attack. The phantom abilities they get instead might be sufficient? I haven't really gone thru them in detail. They're a very specific concept tho' and not suitable to be the default anything.
Rogue talents can do a lot of weird things, but I think mostly they get used for the simple combat bonus options. It's the problem with 'fun' and 'weapon focus' coming from the same pool.
DReamthief is interesting. I don't know if the ability they get is "enough". I'm not familiar with spiritualist and their phantoms to know if this is compensation enough.
Fear and Despair make for decent Intimidator builds, but the big three are Hatred, Kindness, and Pride.
Hatred gives back 5d6 sneak attack, free Weapon Finesse, +2 to Hit, up to +10 damage, automatic retaliatory damage (Cha Mod), and at the end of the game a team-buff that lets your allies join in on your targeted foe.
Kindness gives you +1 to aid another (hilarious on Helpful Halflings), the ability to let your allies swing in more, Lay on Hands, and even more Bodyguard buffs. Its a hilarious tank rogue build with healing hands to boot.
Pride gives +5 to attack rolls over the course of the career but -4 to AC, Swift Action Shaken, and eventually another solid damage boost (+Cha to damage) but has to deal with Overwhelming Confidence turning your morale bonuses into penalties if you ever miss an attack after level 12. In exchange, you get doubled morale bonuses...uh, just don't use morale bonuses and you'll be fine.
Is there a rogue archetype that exchanges sneak attack for something more reliable in terms of providing an attack/damage boost?
I find Sneak Attack to be very reliable for Damage boost. just make sure your rogue can move/acrobat to flanking, and have some way of becoming invisible. (There are also Rogue traits that allow flanking with no partner)
Oh, I know how to make sneak attack more reliable.
I was just curious if there was a rogue with the option of trading it away for something more straightforward. Honestly, something with a scaling attack bonus would be very welcome.
While a rogue that hits can be hitting like a freight train, the rogue chassis has no inherent methods of increasing attack bonus. If they did, it could be feasible to use things like power attack or piranha strike.
Honestly, I would trade sneak attack progression for a +1 to attack per 4 level and +1 to damage every 2 levels with no tricks or setup to make it happen. I think I would enjoy that more.
As much as some people (myself included at times) mock the rogue (and to a lesser degree the UC rogue), in actual play I've found in the hands of a non-optimiser UC rogue can actually be really effective.
Thats because the Rogue can be outdone at just about anything it tries to do by another class. Doesn't mean they can't be used effectively in play or be part of a fun campaign/character. Just that you could play like, a vivesctionist alchemist or a Slayer and do the same things.
The Kineticist(Aether) make good Rogues as well.
Thats because the Rogue can be outdone at just about anything it tries to do by another class. Doesn't mean they can't be used effectively in play or be part of a fun campaign/character. Just that you could play like, a vivesctionist alchemist or a Slayer and do the same things.
Agreed. I've made effective rogues, although it's always been more of a choice to see how good I could make a rogue.
In general, whatever concept I've had could always be mechanically executed better by some other class.
Hatred Dreamthief rogues very cool.
I wonder if anyone played them?
Thats because the Rogue can be outdone at just about anything it tries to do by another class. Doesn't mean they can't be used effectively in play or be part of a fun campaign/character. Just that you could play like, a vivesctionist alchemist or a Slayer and do the same things.
Well, IMO a Slayer is a rogue.... being a hybrid between rogue and ranger...
Oh, I know how to make sneak attack more reliable.
I was just curious if there was a rogue with the option of trading it away for something more straightforward. Honestly, something with a scaling attack bonus would be very welcome.
While a rogue that hits can be hitting like a freight train, the rogue chassis has no inherent methods of increasing attack bonus. If they did, it could be feasible to use things like power attack or piranha strike.
Honestly, I would trade sneak attack progression for a +1 to attack per 4 level and +1 to damage every 2 levels with no tricks or setup to make it happen. I think I would enjoy that more.
IMO Piranha Strike is a must for rogues, TWF with finesse weapons so Dex to hit plus flanking. get a way to go invisible and you suddenly are going against flat footed AC so the negative you are taking to hit due to Piranha strike is suddenly no big deal.
IMO Piranha Strike is a must for rogues, TWF with finesse weapons so Dex to hit plus flanking. get a way to go invisible and you suddenly are going against flat footed AC so the negative you are taking to hit due to Piranha strike is suddenly no big deal.
While technically true, my experience has been that a lot of enemies, non-humanoid enemies especially, do not depend on high dex for AC. They mostly depend on natural armor, so being caught flat-footed usually only lowers their AC by 1 to 2 points at most.
So using Piranha Strike (or anything else that lowers the rogue's already poor attack bonus) is just a recipe for missing a lot, in my experience.
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If you wrote this as: You can take a feat that gives you -3 to will saves, initiative, & AC, for +4 skill ranks per level it would sound far less appealing. There's a lot of good options for feats, advanced weapon training, and advanced armor training. You can in no way call that a minor investment.If Fighters had 6+Int mod skill points and perception as a class skill then I would pick them as well.Cunning as a feat. You have feats. Advanced weapon gives you 2 more. Armour gives you one more. Perception is a trait to grab. You can even go human to make up grabbing cunning and also gain +1 there. That's 7 plus int if you're all in and it cost a single feat and trait.
It's no longer a valid complaint.
That WOULD be a bad trade off. Is there a single feat that gives you +3 to will, ac and initiative? Because I would take that for a single feat. And then I would take the skill points.
Or are you being liberal with your ampersand?
That was an example of some other things you could get for those advanced weapon training and advanced armor training choices that you implied were a non-cost.
It is a non cost. It costs you nothing. Advanced weapon options are options and this is one of them. I fail to see how it somehow costs you something to take one option or another? And certainly I'd take 2 skills at my level over +3 initiative. Fighters dont need to go first, rogues and crowd control does, and even then I'd still take improved initiative and save my choices for something better. This is 2 skills up to your level and that outpaces every option you listed, and I also fail to see how taking this option somehow bars a fighter from taking other options at later levels as per the feat.
If nothing else, the competition between options is very strong so there is always at minimum the opportunity cost.
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One of the greatest things about the Fighter class is its simplicity... it's so simple that VMC literally gives you the whole class.
Now, pick Slayer VMC Fighter, and be on your way with full BAB, two good saves, Ranger Combat Style feats, Slayer Talents, Rogue Talents, 6+Int skills, Bravery, Armor Training, Weapon Training... life is good.
One of the greatest things about the Fighter class is its simplicity... it's so simple that VMC literally gives you the whole class. .
I”m curious... VMC is one of those rules that I see mentioned a lot on the forums, but no group I’ve ever been in allows, possibly with some dark mutterings about “powergamers” thrown into the reasons why it isn’t. How common/ popular / balanced is it as an option?
VMC isn't allowed because of "powergamers"?!?! Lol.
I thought it was mostly just for fun and flavor.
Honestly, there are a few ways it can work in your favor... but in a lot of ways it removes half the choices you have available throughout your career. Half of your opportunities to alter your character are now taken out of your control.
Even a Mutagen Fighter with Rage is missing half their non-combat feats... how optimal that turns out to be relies on how much the campaign focuses on combat.
I like it for 6th level casting classes that have a lot to offer. Plus, a few such classes have built in bonus feats, which is nice. But I still use it for flavor WAY MORE than "power".
Like a Kobold Divine Commander Warpriest with a Deinonychus mount... VMC Sorcerer (Draconic), taking Scaled Disciple going into Dragon Disciple... because it's hilarious and fun. Or a Resourceful Halfling Arcane Healer-Geisha Bard VMC Monk, worships Irori, abuses Ki Channel and the tea of transference... but nobody cares because it's still just a Halfling Bard using Shikigami Style and Unarmed Strikes.
It can provide a lot of fun flavor. I'm sure it can be abused, like everything else. Banning it is stupid, though.
My group never took to VMC and no one has asked to use it.
I was never a fan of it, there are some options that are stronger (IMO) than traditional multiclassing which is probably where the disconnect comes in at.
Since it's an optional thing, I think it's more "You'd have to ask the GM to allow it" and unless you present a strong argument that GM will probably just say "Sorry, not this campaign".
VMC has been allowed in every one of my Pathfinder campaigns since it has been available, and in every case but one I considered and decided against using it for various reasons -- generally because I could build more powerful characters for what I wanted to do by other means.
The single exception was a one-off where I built a wisdom based oracle (Epic Meepo's "wise oracle" archetype) with VMC monk. Without that strange archetype (which synergized well with VMC monk, as each filled in gaps left by the other) and having to struggle through the lowest class levels, I probably would have skipped VMC even then.
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The main issue with VMC is that they are horribly imbalanced...among themselves. Some of the VMC options are really quite good and a fair trade for half your feats. Others are uh, awful. I try not to get on writers and developers backs but VMC is one of the things where I wanna shake whoever they farmed this out to vigorously.
Just to make the point clear here...
Barbarian: Gives you Rage for your 3rd level feat, a Rage Power at 11, and Greater Rage at 19...plus some smaller benefits at 7 and 15. Honestly fantastic, well worth the feat loss. Uncanny Dodge is whatever but everything else is worth a feat. VMC barbarians rule.
Gunslinger: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Gunsmithing, and three deeds...what the hell is this garbage? You literally take ONE level of Gunslinger and get 3/5ths of the abilities here. Who wrote this? Why doesn't this offer Dex to Damage at 11th level? Who thought giving you a 7th level deed at level 19 was anywhere close to gaining GREATER RAGE at the same level?
And yes, I took the best and worst to make the point but come the hell on. Who proofread that and thought, "Hmm, that seems legit"
PS: The Fighter Mutation Warrior archetype makes for a hysterical VMC barbarian. Starting at level 3 you drink your Mutagen and then rage on the next round for uh, +8 Strength. Can you say, Hulk Smash?
VMC = Vaiant Multiclassing. It's a different way to get abilities from 2 classes.
It's from PF Unchained which makes it officially unofficial. And unlike the unchained rogue it never got a lot of traction.
My favorite class is either Inquisitor or Wizard.
Both are spell casters, though I view the inquisitor as a martially-inclined dude with some buffing abilities. I played an archer and totally loved going to down with my studied target, greater bane, holy, it was ridiculous.
For absolutely no spells, it's between the Barbarian, Rogue, Slayer.
J
OH... if Skirmisher Rangers are allowed, then DEFINITELY Half-Orc Freebooter/Skirmisher Ranger VMC Fighter with Sacred Tattooes, Shaman's Apprentice, Fate's Favored, Gloves of Dueling, Living Monolith, blah blah blah...
Could worship Gorum and Hulk-Smash $#!+ with a Greatsword. Erastil and shoot $#!+... so many skills, so many choices... Wisdom-based tricks helps the Will save, too.
If you aren't shackled by lame Society rules, then grab the OG Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier to go with Fate's Favored...
Rangers technically HAVE spells, so I didn't think Freebooter/Skirmisher was an option. Lol.
Help your friends, two good saves, 6+Int skills, Weapon Training, full BAB, Ranger Combat Style feats to make up for VMC, Wisdom-based tricks, Bravery, the Skirmisher tricks themselves, Armor Training...
Half-Orc opens up +2 Luck bonus to all saves via Fate's Favored, Darkvision, Endurance, the Orc HornBow, a bite attack if you want it, access to Scent... if I absolutely MUST play a martial, what will I do? Close my eyes and whisper a prayer to Vildeis? Who knows? Lots of options...
But, my favourite classes already don't use spells. :P
Unsure if qinggong monk would count as a caster or not... That said even without it, monks were always a favourite of mine. I also like Barbarians and Fighters.
Haven't played 1e in ages, and would give almost anything to play a dwarf fighter.
Paizo did a great job to uplift them from the only bonus feats as a class feature. Everyone says its a simply class to play and this is true. However if you know what you are doing, you can make a real beast. The bonus feats also means you can take feats you otherwise wouldn't.
I usually favour either the barbarian or fighter when I look at full BAB classes, and currently id rather roll a fighter again :)
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I love barbarians. There was this guy who played a titan mauler and used body bludgeon to dual-wield people. It was absolutely hilarious.
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Commoners.
They're delicious and nutritious!
Commoners.
They're delicious and nutritious!
And even more useful once recycled!
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Thats because the Rogue can be outdone at just about anything it tries to do by another class. Doesn't mean they can't be used effectively in play or be part of a fun campaign/character. Just that you could play like, a vivesctionist alchemist or a Slayer and do the same things.Agreed. I've made effective rogues, although it's always been more of a choice to see how good I could make a rogue.
In general, whatever concept I've had could always be mechanically executed better by some other class.
TBH I feel like that's part of the problem. There are just too many different rogues in PF. Rogue, Ninja, Slayer, Investigator, Vigilante, URogue and they all have things you can't properly replicate on the others.
I feel like it'd be a lot more satisfying if they had spent more time fleshing out one class' options than providing a whole bunch of different, mutually exclusive patches that are never quite feature complete.
Purely 1st party Paizo? Chained Barbarian for sure. Despite not having spells, they have access to things like flight, pounce, obscene saves, rerolls, and the ability to punch through magic as well as be god of combat maneuvers.
If all 3rd party material was allowed, though...I'm currently really feeling the Fighter. Specifically, a Fighter with the following archetypes: Runesinger, Martial Master, Impossible Warrior and War Hero. Basically a ton of versatility at your fingertips, paired with the ability to fight magic arguably better than the Barbarian! On top of this, you get some decent team-buffing goodness.
On top of these archetypes, they can also grab access to Path of War maneuvers via the sparking subsystem. My current level 6 build even grabs the Akashic Veil, Hand Cannons, in order to have a reliable ranged weapon for switch hitting. Quite the well rounded beast, I think.