Looking to build a debuff character for fun (and when I mean fun I mean optimized), which character is the best debuffer in the game, is it a Bard? A Witch? A combination of the two? Or something else? I would imagine the Occult list would be a big advantage. Some help please!
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Dirge of Doom certainly works well for any other spell based buffs you might aim for. You might as well pretend that you have 2 more CHA when you have that running, since the performance is a no save AoE. A better chance of hitting or critting just makes every spell a better deal.
For other classes, the plague domain seems to be a fairly good choice if you can be evil. The first domain power can cause the target to get your choice of clumsy, enfeebled, or stupefied (so tank whichever save you want). This is a disease, and the stage 2 (which you get to automatically with a crit failed save) also adds the slowed condition. You only get clumsy/etc 1 at first, but at level 10 it gets clumsy/etc 2 and it is harder to recover through saves.
The real fun of this domain is the second domain power. It allows you to turn a diseased enemy into an 15' radius AoE biohazard that affects everything around it, spreading a disease it has to others. Note that the first domain power is also a disease.
Bard also gets synesthesia, which is a crazy good debuff spell.
Bard also gets synesthesia, which is a crazy good debuff spell.That's one of the major advantages of the Occult list, yes. Occult casters other than Bards also receive that benefit, though.
And?
I'm not sure what point it is that you're trying to make. Does that somehow not make it worth mentioning?
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He's making the point that alongside Bards, any Occult caster also gets synesthesia.
I want to throw an honorable mention to any character with a bird animal companion and an accurate Strike. The bird's Support benefit applies both a bleed and Dazzled.
I don’t think that is on the same level as a caster who can debuff a wide range of ways, but I’m throwing it out there to raise the point that debuffing can be (and I would argue SHOULD be) a team effort. One guy intimidates, another guy Dazzles, someone else trips, and now the enemy is royally hosed and is essentially out of the fight.
A single bard who Dirges and then hits with a relevant debuff is also excellent of course! But in a party without a dedicated debuffer, it is important to talk through how the party will go about screwing with the enemy.
I want to throw an honorable mention to any character with a bird animal companion and an accurate Strike. The bird's Support benefit applies both a bleed and Dazzled.
BB combo: Bird + Bomb = AoE Dazzled with no save :)
Don't forget a Gnome with Razzle-Dazzle to get that extra round or just that one full round.
Don't forget a Gnome with Razzle-Dazzle to get that extra round or just that one full round.
True, it makes the combo even more enjoyable!
It does make for a very nice combo actually once you add all of that.
Well Bard seems like the "obvious" choice but there are a lot of ways to build debuff characters. I admit I play a Bard and it's quite fun.
Any caster with the Occult list gets lots of fun and good debuffs. So you are pretty much free to play Bard/Sorcerer/Witch with plenty of good debuffs.
Other than that even Martials have good debuff options. You can make any character focus on athletics/intimidation and give prone/grabbed/frightened at will. Which overall I think would be quite good.
As others have mentioned animal companions can also be helpful for applying debuffs. Once you get to level 12 every character can grab dirge of doom.
Overall I feel like you have a lot of choices and they should all be strong at different things.
Since we are talking about Martials with debuff option - if you want to go that route the Swashbuckler seems like a good choice for a martial debuff character
The gymnast can trip and grab an enemy, the braggart can intimidate enemies over and over later on and the wit style swashbuckler helps the possible casters with bon mot
with the right feats a investigator could also help since you can basically pick which maneuver you do with your stratagem - disarming the enemy with a nat 20 and otherwise tripping, grabbing (or shoving) them using int
One of the problems with maneuver debuffers (and other similar options) is that they often give the flat footed condition. That -2 is great. But depending on the situation, anyone could give it by standing in flanking position.
It is great when a rogue has something like feint to give himself flat footed, since it means he can more easily go toe to toe, one on one. But it might not be as useful to the party since you already open flat footed
from flanking just by standing in melee range to do the feint.
Flat footed becomes a much better party debuff if you can make someone flat footed for everyone at a distance. When you can pick out someone at archery of your ranger or someone engaged in melee with the barbarian on the other end of the battlefield, then it opens up a lot more options.
Now, maneuver builds are good, but I tend to value them for battlefield control or setting up things for AoOs with trips. But that is a separate issue from most debuffs.
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As much as I love the Bard I wish they would have made the Witch a better debuffer, and a Bard the better buffer.
One of the problems with maneuver debuffers (and other similar options) is that they often give the flat footed condition. That -2 is great. But depending on the situation, anyone could give it by standing in flanking position.
It is great when a rogue has something like feint to give himself flat footed, since it means he can more easily go toe to toe, one on one. But it might not be as useful to the party since you already open flat footed
from flanking just by standing in melee range to do the feint.Flat footed becomes a much better party debuff if you can make someone flat footed for everyone at a distance. When you can pick out someone at archery of your ranger or someone engaged in melee with the barbarian on the other end of the battlefield, then it opens up a lot more options.
Now, maneuver builds are good, but I tend to value them for battlefield control or setting up things for AoOs with trips. But that is a separate issue from most debuffs.
While it's true you can get flat-footed "for free" just by flanking, given that you must be within your reach in order to contribute to flanking, it means someone has to a) have had the mobility and b) be willing/able to stand within striking distance of the target.
Except for a few cases, it seems like it's prudent to avoid ending your turn next to a melee combatant. So while flanking offers flat-footed, it comes with its own risks that make other options more attractive for many combatants. I'm thinking here of the mobile strikers, light monks, rogues, anyone who might be interested in getting a melee strike off but generally avoid remaining in range.
As much as I love the Bard I wish they would have made the Witch a better debuffer, and a Bard the better buffer.
I don't get this. It seems to me that the bard is the best buffer in the game already by a wide margin, and the witch has several powerful debuff options.
How exactly are they not already fulfilling the roles described?
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Bard is also seen as a more powerful debuffer in some respects, would be my guess. Good 'ol Lv 6 Dirge of Doom shattering balance expectations.
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Bard is also seen as a more powerful debuffer in some respects, would be my guess. Good 'ol Lv 6 Dirge of Doom shattering balance expectations.
That plus Charisma giving access to Intimidate & Bon Mot.
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I have to say that I really do think I jive more with the idea that they went overboard with the Bard versus saying that the Witch or other Occult Classes are weak.
That said it has been something of a disappointment that they didn't deign to give Witches the kind of strong all-day Debuffing like they had in 1st edition. I'm still not certain I understand why they effectively swapped the all-day feature role betwen the Witch and Bard since previously Bards had the limited resource and Witch could go buck wild with it and now it just straight up swapped with the edition change.
R.I.P Witch, will miss you. We still have no hope though, the witch could become a better debuffer perhaps in the future books. Never give up hope.
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As much as I love the Bard I wish they would have made the Witch a better debuffer, and a Bard the better buffer.I don't get this. It seems to me that the bard is the best buffer in the game already by a wide margin, and the witch has several powerful debuff options.
How exactly are they not already fulfilling the roles described?
The point is that the bard is best buffer and the best debuffer as oppose to the bard being the best buffer and the witch being the best debuffer.
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Nobody ever mentions the hag sorcerer.
Yet its focus spells make it the best debuffer by far.
Also, cha-based, occult casting, 4 slots per level.
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Nobody ever mentions the hag sorcerer.
Yet its focus spells make it the best debuffer by far.Also, cha-based, occult casting, 4 slots per level.
As a Hag Sorcerer playing in Extinction Curse, I've been having a great time debuffing.
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Nobody ever mentions the hag sorcerer.
Yet its focus spells make it the best debuffer by far.Also, cha-based, occult casting, 4 slots per level.
Hag Sorcerers are excellent debuffers, especially comparatively at low levels (due to Jealous Hex being very good early on). I'm not sure they're actually better than Bards are once they get Dirge of Doom, though
Definitely up there, though.
Nobody ever mentions the hag sorcerer.
Yet its focus spells make it the best debuffer by far.Also, cha-based, occult casting, 4 slots per level.
Hag Sorcerer is good, just still not the level of the Bard.
Hag Sorcerer is good, just still not the level of the Bard.
I beg to differ, stunning 1 on a success and controlling on a failure, as a focus spell, is about as good as it gets. Or frightened 1 on a sauvé, frightened 2 on a fail, fleeing on a crit which is stricly better than dirge of doom.
Also, at my tables, there is often an intimidation build which makes DoD kinda redondat.
Bards are great, sure, but they're not necessarily the best.
Dirge has the advantage of being a single action opposed to horrific visage that costs 2. Your Mine being an incapacitation effect is it's downfall.
The point is that the bard is best buffer and the best debuffer as oppose to the bard being the best buffer and the witch being the best debuffer.As much as I love the Bard I wish they would have made the Witch a better debuffer, and a Bard the better buffer.I don't get this. It seems to me that the bard is the best buffer in the game already by a wide margin, and the witch has several powerful debuff options.
How exactly are they not already fulfilling the roles described?
The witch I don't think is meant to be the best debuffer. They have more variability than that. Our divine witch with stoke the heart increases damage nicely. The occult witch with evil eye and needle of vengeance has some nice battlefield control options. I think the witch has more variability in build than it used to have.
I could say any Occult caster will have good debuffs.
Any divine caster will have some good buffs and defensive buffs as well as heals and condition removal.
Arcane casters get the most varied blasting, transportation, and spell choices.
Primal gets great blasting, shapechanging, and some heals and condition removal.
It kind of depends on your spell list what you'll get able to focus on.
I guess that does mean bards are the best buffers and debuffers.
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*Glares menacingly and walks away*
Well, uh, I guess I'll actually pitch the Alchemist here. If it has a real best-at-niche, it may be debuffing.
The item list has grown to the point where its gained some rather absurd options.
By now, there's basically a bomb for every debuff you could desire (or that your allies want to combo with).
There are also number of debuff bombs that don't need a hit, and as such, can be used when at MAP, while still being Quick Bomber compatible. Blindpepper is a L5 big reflex save-or-blind (and not hamstrung by the poison trait).
Skunk bombs are 1A Fort save monsters. Sick 1 + Slow on fail, Sick 1 on success. All splashed creatures still need to roll, and get 1 degree better. Even if thrown at a ground-square for splash placement, a "save or sick" AoE for 1A is genuinely great in many circumstances.
At L3, you get Bottles of Night, which are very abuseable if the party conspires to get darkvision.
Alchemy can genuinely out perform spells in the debuff department thanks to the lower resource cost and typically 1A use.
Loads of other options, especially if your GM allows uncommons.
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Special note in that Resentment Witch with Alch archetype can work, but is way better as 2 different PCs working together. Most bombs still really want to land a hit, and an Arch-Alch will need to ration their items while being a squishy caster.