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So, yeah. Striking Spell. There's been a lot of discussion about it. A LOT. There's been a lot of discussion on what to do with it, or how to fix it. I've taken part in that myself, to limited attention or success. But here's the thing that we're forgetting in all this in all this hubbub: Magus is more than just Striking Spell/Spellstrike. Yes, it's a core feature of the class. Arguably THE core feature, which can make or break the class. I'm not going to dispute that at all. But a Rogue is more than just Sneak Attack, Barbarian is more than just Rage, and Sorcerer is more than just its Bloodline. These are iconic and central to the class yes, but there's also the entire rest of the class to consider; a Barbarian with 6 HP/level would not be a good class to play, after all.
Quite a while back, I made a thread that asked what people wanted for Magus. Now that we actually have (a version of) the Magus, I'm making a new, similar thread here: What else, besides Striking Spell, would you like to see changed or improved upon with the Magus? Hit Die? Initial skills? Saves? So on and so forth. Paizo has undoubtedly gotten the message loud and clear that people are not satisfied with Striking Spell; it takes up at least 90% of this particular forum. But we shouldn't miss the forest for one unfortunate tree, lest the rest of them suffer for it.
For me? I'd like to see Magus shifted away from the four-slot casting that Paizo has been trying out. Some close friends of mine have argued that giving a martial class inherent casting better than what others get from multiclassing would be overpowered, and probably negate any other class as an option for gish options. But currently by and large people feel like Magus has to MCD with other casting classes, and that in itself is obviously a problem. I'd like to see Magus get an overall 2/level casting paradigm, and maybe specify that Magus class features/abilities only work with spells they get as a Magus. Additionally, Magus is supposed to be the premier gish class. Currently everyone is so focused on Striking Spell as to forget that little fact.
Additionally, I'd like to see the scaling of their proficiencies altered. Monk and Champion get master proficiency in their spells before Magus does. Whereas Monk/Champion both get a multitude of features and their spells are mostly optional, for a Magus those spells are absolutely central. Casting at expert until level 19 when their casting stat is already sub-par is just too much. Multiclass dedications get master proficiency before Magus. While yes they sacrifice class feats, they still get their own core features on top of their MC options. Magus, currently? Not so much.
So yes, those are the two things I'd like to see the Magus get. And yes, I know these are in a void and that a cascade effect of fixing Striking Spell and implementing additional buffs could go the opposite direction, making Magus overpowered. But I choose to believe that Paizo will, given time, parse through everything and figure out what's for the best. We just need to give them options and feedback to point in the appropriate direction.
So what about all of you? What do YOU think can be done to make Magus feel better as a class? And I do emphasize, besides fixing Striking Spell. That horse is being beaten to death so thoroughly you'll need a Wish spell to bring it back.
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- I’d like to see Magus get some Focus Cantrips (yes, I know these may eventually be used with Striking Spell) but I mean it in the sense that I think they could get some unique effects like a Bard does. Things that worked like 5e’s Booming Blade, Grenflame Blade and company - spells that function alongside martial combat.
- I’d really like a Cantrip or Focus Spell like the 4e Swordmage’s Lightning Lure. Something that brings enemies toward you rather than you to them.
- on the other end of the spectrum, I’d love to see more teleporting and mobility options, maybe something akin to Noctis in FF XV?
- More synthesis (a martial arts one and a sword and board one come to mind), but also some reworks so that synthesis do more. Maybe go the champion route (they get automatic Improvements to their reactions at certain levels).
- This one’s a bit tricky, but if somehow this ends up being the book in which we get Class Archetypes, then I’d like to see Eldritch Scion as a Magus Archetype that changes them to spontaneous casters.
- More Higher Level Battle Magic Spells
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I'd want something better for the 2 hander style. Since 1 hander gets an extra move action, how giving a free cast of the shield cantrip to 2 handers? This would turn them into the tanky magus.
..admittedly, this might end up being the gimmick for a shield focused style that could come later.
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1. Low level spell slots, ideally 2 each to be on par with multiclass casters.
2. Single action damage focus cantrip that locks you out of casting other spells for the round. Give it damage to line up well with other martial's round to round damage.
3. Some kind of stance
4. More spellbook feats like the blocking one i forget the name of
I think that's about it. I just really need it to feel 50-50 martial-caster.
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Same thing I said back in the first thread:
Unique activities with magical flavor. Barbarians get sudden charge, Fighters get power attack and Magi should get some similar stuff too.
Great way to add magical feeling to the class without just adding more raw magic too. Imagine like, two actions to be able to make a ranged attack with a melee weapon (probably with some other bonuses because two actions for one attack would be meh on its own). Or instead of Swipe or Cleave, an ability that lets you strike an enemy and deal magic damage to other enemies in a burst around you too (lightning arcs off your blade and hits nearby enemies? cool).
Stuff like that, imo, could add a lot of flavor to the Magus without making it feel like they just live or die on Striking Spells.
Mechanically, I'd like to see more support for one handed + other stuff in the other hand. Stuff like Raise a Tome is neat conceptually but is undersupported because most benefits aimed at one handed weapons (aka sliding spell) require a free hand, which puts a "anything else in the other hand" build in kind of this uncanny valley of suck, where you don't get the damage of a two handed build but you have the same action economy problems they do.
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I definitely agree with Squiggit in going more in the direction of "magical fighter" rather than "fighter with magic."
Just a few stylistic things that evoke the feeling of blending sword and sorcery.
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I feel like a lot of the feats in the playtest are already trying to deliver on that. I was pleasantly surprised by how fresh the ones past 6th level looked, in that they were all trying to add some kind of magical spin on combat actions, like Spell Swipe and Cascading Ray instead of Sweep. I think keeping on that track is the way to go.
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Unique activities with magical flavor. Barbarians get sudden charge, Fighters get power attack and Magi should get some similar stuff too.
I definitely agree with Squiggit in going more in the direction of "magical fighter" rather than "fighter with magic."
Just a few stylistic things that evoke the feeling of blending sword and sorcery.
I'm in full agreement with this. Take Portal Slide for example. It and probably Capture Spell (and Raise a Tome, were it written better) are probably some of the most flavorful and unique feats available to Magus right now, and they just look so absolutely fun. Honestly Portal Slide is probably one of the reasons I propose more spells for Magus; I wanna be teleporting around the battlefield more often than four times a day, even though I understand why it can't be allowed to work with cantrips.
I feel like a lot of the feats in the playtest are already trying to deliver on that. I was pleasantly surprised by how fresh the ones past 6th level looked, in that they were all trying to add some kind of magical spin on combat actions, like Spell Swipe and Cascading Ray instead of Sweep. I think keeping on that track is the way to go.
I think the problem is that it's a "magical spin" on otherwise normal combat maneuvers. Rather than being something genuinely unique and all its own, several of these feats are "Martial/Caster feat, but spellstrike". Which, of course, exacerbates that particular problem. Many of the feats aren't so much a magical spin as they are... a magical or martial derivative.
I'd like to see Focus Cantrips, and Focus Stances. We could get some really wild stuff with focus stances.
You just made me realize that Monk is the only class with a focus point stance, AFAIK. Magus could absolutely change that, and I for one would be more than happy to have something like that.
I'd reaaally like to see Raise a Tome made viable and expanded upon. Give the Magus ways to derive advantage from Recall Knowledge checks, I want a proper build centered on this feat.
I feel like a lot of the feats in the playtest are already trying to deliver on that. I was pleasantly surprised by how fresh the ones past 6th level looked, in that they were all trying to add some kind of magical spin on combat actions, like Spell Swipe and Cascading Ray instead of Sweep. I think keeping on that track is the way to go.I think the problem is that it's a "magical spin" on otherwise normal combat maneuvers. Rather than being something genuinely unique and all its own, several of these feats are "Martial/Caster feat, but spellstrike". Which, of course, exacerbates that particular problem. Many of the feats aren't so much a magical spin as they are... a magical or martial derivative.
To be clear, the ones I found great were the same ones you did. I only mentioned the ones I did in my post because they did 2 out of the 3 things Squiggit said he wanted to see done.
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In general, I'd like to see some feats/abilities that just straight up let you do magical things with your sword.
Not "when you use Striking Spell", just abilities that stand on their own.
The Spell Parry line is a good example of what I'd like to see more of. It starts off as essentially a "raise a shield/buckler" ability, but then gets upgrades that make it unique from other equivalents.
Maybe they get a Cleave equivalent, except the second hit is lightning chaining off the first target. Then upgrade to allow it to make additional attacks against multiple targets.
Maybe an attack feat that sticks people to the floor with ice when you hit them with your weapon, or a high-leveled one that inflicts short-term paralysis. There's a bunch of status effects that are too "magical" for Fighters to inflict, but aren't something overpowered to cause for a round.
Also, I don't think that Portal Slide would be overpowered if it was implemented as a magical alternative to Tumble. Make an Arcana check, move up to half-speed via teleportation as a single action.
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I want Runic Impression to be the base power, using the lowest level effects of Magus Potency before shifting towards property runes.
Also, I don't think that Portal Slide would be overpowered if it was implemented as a magical alternative to Tumble. Make an Arcana check, move up to half-speed via teleportation as a single action.
Jail cells and other such constraints are now little more than a joke for any slide-casting Magus. Who needs a Rogue to sneak or squeeze when a Magus can just "poof!" to the other side?
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For me, the main thing to fix beyond Striking Spell is spell slots. Magi have a perfect number of high-level spell slots, but I still think they would benefit immensly, both from a mechanical and thematical standpoint, from having more low level spells. Something like the "wave" spell progression idea I've seen going around. Low level slots aren't that useful in blasting, but they still allow you to cast plenty of buffs and utility magic, which really helps sell the fantasy of a hybrid between caster and martial.
Wishlist:
-Keep 4-slot casting! After playing it I really like the paradigm, and how it interacts with spellcasting dedications.
-Get Master Spellcasting at 17th level
-Replace Magus potency with either a bonus that is relevant at every level, or a fun attack focus spell.
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E9/M17 spellcasting would be a healthy improvement. It's weird that the gish classes are just worse at spellcasting than Champions and Monks.
There is nothing beyond spell strike being fixed to be your bread and butter even with cantrips.
Everything else is so low in the totem pole for me that if it was the only thing addressed I'd be happy with the class.
But what I'd like to see is all synthesis to get some kind of action economy boost with spell strike.
Slide casting gets a move action
Ranged synthesis gets free reload.
Steel gets ... Free shield action as someone mentioned, or dr until the start of your next turn. Or, this one might be too good. A reaction where if he's attacked he can attack back?
Overall, I actually think Magus is pretty close. There are some contentious feelings on the casting progression and Striking Spell, but overall, not bad IMO.
Things I personally would love to see:
- Class Paths take a large role in the type of Magus you are playing and not directly tethered to the Striking Spell action
- Progression of spells changed to the "Wave" format, so that I can support my character concept with lower level spells I have acquired over my career that define me
- More Feats like Spirit Sheath/Raise a Tome which are dripping with flavor and potential. Also, less Class Feats oriented around the "starved for spells" issue. I would rather see Class Feats grant Focus Spells that a Magus can use than attempt to solve their casting problems
- Contentious opinion incoming - I would like to see them lose Medium Armor proficiency and only be trained in Light armor by default. Then a level 1 Class Feat to acquire Medium Armor OR add it to specific Class Paths (similar to the Ruffian Rogue) like the Sustaining Steel path, and then gain something in return for that (just a little more bang in the power budget).
- Class Feats/Features to incentivize going back and forth between Magic and Melee and combining them. I'd like there to be benefits for casting a spell that apply to martial aspects, and benefits for spellcasting based on landing strikes
- Action Economy fixes that allow a Magus to be mobile while performing their main schtick. The most awesome part about the Magus in PF1 was how well it handled the action economy. Due to the action economy changes in PF2, most of the things they gained efficiency from (full round actions) have disappeared. This is why "Slide" feels nearly mandatory as a path, if only to keep your Magus mobile. There should be meaningful trade off, but I don't want Magus to be a spinning top that's trapped in their square if they didn't take Slide. A free step with Striking Spell or Striking spell being reduced to 2 actions could both certainly solve such a problem, as well as going the Class Path route (Sustaining Steel gets reach, Slide, and then Shooting Star has range).
- Magus Potency needs probably another look. I like it, but it's weird it gets some bonuses super early, some bonuses super late, and in general it's hard to combine it with your action economy as is. Overall its strong, but it just feels "awkward" to me compared to the old Arcane Pool setup. I would also have preferred to see Runes as opposed to direct upgrades of Weapon Power, thus allowing you to merge Runes onto weapons that are already magical (thus adding a reason for a Magus to acquire a Magic Weapon). I know Runic Impression is a thing, but considering this feature was Core for Magus before, I'm sad to see it go the way of a Feat. My guess as to why is that Weaknesses are a lot more powerful, but I have less of an issue with that if you're more "locked" into a choice somehow (so you can't just flex to the right thing for weaknesses all the time). Minor nitpick honestly.
Gonna give a +1 to Magus Potency receiving another look.
I mean, it's useful and powerful, but feels awkward in that it is a mandatory. I say that because enhancing one's own weapon should be a class path or the origin of a feat tree, not something that you're stuck with from level 1.
That said, I would be okay with it being mandatory if it provided something unique like a spell attack/DC improvement, but the way it currently works, its basically forcing Magi to not acquire weapon runes and spend the first turn buffing or else it is worthless.
Compare it to, say, the Champion's Lay on Hands. You get something super unique that doesn't overlap with anything.
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@midnightoker
I agree your one contentious proposal of losing medium armor is in fact contentious lol.
It would break the class for me as I'd no longer be able to hit 18str, 16int and 18ac with slide casting at level 1.
@midnightoker
I agree your one contentious proposal of losing medium armor is in fact contentious lol.
It would break the class for me as I'd no longer be able to hit 18str, 16int and 18ac with slide casting at level 1.
Considering Slide casting probably shouldn't get that type of enhanced movement with Medium Armor, I would call that a feature instead of a bug.
I'd be all for the two-handed Magus to get Medium Armor, but the one handers get Medium armor is also a little thematically "off" to me.
And again, a level 1 Class Feat could probably suffice. Most of them (IMO) aren't very good anyways (Eschew Materials... come on...).
YMMV clearly.
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@midnightoker
I agree your one contentious proposal of losing medium armor is in fact contentious lol.
It would break the class for me as I'd no longer be able to hit 18str, 16int and 18ac with slide casting at level 1.
Considering Slide casting probably shouldn't get that type of enhanced movement with Medium Armor, I would call that a feature instead of a bug.
I'd be all for the two-handed Magus to get Medium Armor, but the one handers get Medium armor is also a little thematically "off" to me.
And again, a level 1 Class Feat could probably suffice. Most of them (IMO) aren't very good anyways (Eschew Materials... come on...).
YMMV clearly.
If we got a class feat at level 1 I'd settle for that, as we currently do not and I don't want to feel forced to play a human.
And I don't see the disconnect on the movement I guess. Rather I'd see sustaining steel get heavy armor.
My hard line is that if I'm any kind of martial and I can't hit 18ac at level 1. I home brew it or don't use it.
My hard line is that if I'm any kind of martial and I can't hit 18ac at level 1. I home brew it or don't use it.
I mean in my example, you can just as easily go DEX to 16/18 and achieve 18 AC. A Chain Shirt has +2 and Leather has +1.
shrug
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2 hander Magi are a lot more fun to play than I thought they would be, but that is largely because their weapon attack is so strong that it very frequently over-shines the potential spell damage, especially when boosted trough energize strikes and runic impression (a flat out incredible focus power).
Mauler archetype (for crit specialization and power attack) is even better than fighter dedication, even though it doesn't feel like it gives you anything at level 2. It is so good the sustaining steel magus that it feels worth passing on any level 2 or level 4 magus feat on. I think it would be much cooler for the magus to have some kind of 2 action attack feat at level 2 for 2 handed Magus that was a little more unique and focused on the class than power attack, rather than being so easy to MC out of at level 2.
Really all the synthesis should have combat style action feats at level 2 I think.
My hard line is that if I'm any kind of martial and I can't hit 18ac at level 1. I home brew it or don't use it.I mean in my example, you can just as easily go DEX to 16/18 and achieve 18 AC. A Chain Shirt has +2 and Leather has +1.
shrug
18str,16int 18ac
A one handed magus with a reach weapon is probably ok with a 17 AC, since they can slide cast and keep at range. Reach is maybe a little too valuable to the magus as a whole right now, especially since they all have a rough time with being durable.
A one handed magus with a reach weapon is probably ok with a 17 AC, since they can slide cast and keep at range. Reach is maybe a little too valuable to the magus as a whole right now, especially since they all have a rough time with being durable.
It's never reasonable for me. But I'm pretty demanding of my base line expectations of every class.
Gonna give a +1 to Magus Potency receiving another look.
I mean, it's useful and powerful, but feels awkward in that it is a mandatory. I say that because enhancing one's own weapon should be a class path or the origin of a feat tree, not something that you're stuck with from level 1.
It was a core part of the first edition magus, and for that I’ll be a little sad to see it go. If it can combine with Runic in a neat way, that would be ideal.
Personally I think that the martial caster feat should be baked in. Giving the Magus 2 spell slots every level would also accomplish that, but I think that might be too much power and I'm less convinced it is needed.
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The only class kit to contain clothing is Witch.
Swashbuckler has some clothing in "optional" section.
Everyone else is buck naked.
What's up with that?
The class kit for magus or summoner wasn't included in the playtest document. But when we finally see it, we'll find out for sure whether Magus is Golarion's butt or not.
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Personally I think that the martial caster feat should be baked in. Giving the Magus 2 spell slots every level would also accomplish that, but I think that might be too much power and I'm less convinced it is needed.
Wave Progression is best progression ;) it is basically the halfway mark between the two.
It could be fun to have a Sorcerer-like Magus variant, that uses spontaneous casting and Charisma or even Wisdom-based spells.
The "sword soul"?
There was the Eldritch Scion from PF1. If they do the spontaneous arcane "partial" caster, I would rather see it fill a more distinct role than the Magus if it were its own class.
Not sure what that'd look like though.
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Qssuming we see spellstrike as two actions with a single check for success/failure...
That would free up the third action for all builds and allow more round_to-round versatility.
It would also eliminate the need for slide casting and many other feats that only exist to fix the action economy issues created byb3 action striking spell.
This would also, perhaps counter-intuitively, make less need for those spells that exist only to make striking spell more attractive. All the extra riders and effects with striking spell would still be nice, but would no longer look like must-haves, instead allowing you to branch out more with feat choices.
I'd like to see the remaining sythesis reworked, and for each to add a unique reaction (something the class sorely lacks right now) or even a focus spell stance (a great idea others have suggested!). I'd prefer they feel less limiting to a weapon, or allow us to pick up an additional sythesis.
I'd love to see a new kensai style sythesis where the sword is part weapon, part familiar, part spellbook, maybe even part staff.
Feats to expand on the Tome concept, and the unarmed.
The 4 spell slots can work if we see more minor magic effects without spells (like the feats that add spellstrike riders, but not requiring spellstrike). Or a variation of the wave slots mentioned.
Even just 1 slot per level you've advanced out of would both open up utility for a class that is severely lacking it, and make a muliclads caster dedication a lot less appealing than it is currently.
Right now nearly all feats (while mostly interesting) are either built onto or rely on striking spell. Which is not satisfying when you run out of slots or don't have the action economy to use it.
Thanks for starting this thread, Inquisitive Tiefling! A lot of interesting info in here.
NGL I got giddy when I saw your comment thanking me for this thread. When the lead designer thanks you, you know you've done something good. Since it has your attention I'm actually curious; what do you think of the Magus and the feedback you've gotten so far?
I know, I know; it would be a little dangerous for the lead designer of the class to give input such as that. Many people would take your word as gospel, even though being lead designer still means you're just one person working at Paizo, with commitments and higher-ups we know very little about.
But still, I think just about everyone would love to poke your brain and see how their feedback is being taken, even if you leave out mention of Striking Spell. Anything else in particular that's stood out as an issue for players?
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I don't think he'll want to say anything about his thoughts to avoid biasing the playtest results. Hopefully we'll get his thoughts during a recap twitch stream!
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Magi don't get critical specialization for any weapons. Except specifically brawling weapons if they take a Lv 1 feat, Arcane Fists. It's really weird to me that they have the option for one but not any of the others, though critical specialization effects are distributed a bit haphazardly -- Monk needs to spend a feat, but both Clerics get it automatically. Eidolons don't get crit spec. either, though that case feels more intentional.
(On a side note, I'm also not sure that they or Summoners necessitate not getting a Lv 1 feat as they currently are. If they end up with more spells in the long term, or get Lv 1 feats in their syntheses/Eidolon choices like most casters, I could see it then.)
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I view that as a feat tax. Mostly. Monks experience the same issue.
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Mauler is a really dedication feat for the Sustaining steel Synthesis, but I would love for it to not be particularly necessary, in terms of being able to pick up weapon crit specializations for certain kinds of weapons and a cool attack activity granting feat for all the eventual syntheses included in the final version of the class. I really think just one for each will really help make each synthesis stick out, but getting 2 of each would let magi really feel different from each other.
Getting those attack activity feats goes so far in making the magus feel dynamic and fun in play, much more even than more spell casting. I know more spell casting is something that feels important to a lot of players and so feats like martial casting make sense to me, but I really hope we end up with more feats in the vein of spell swipe scattered through the different levels of the final class.
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Mauler is a really dedication feat for the Sustaining steel Synthesis, but I would love for it to not be particularly necessary, in terms of being able to pick up weapon crit specializations for certain kinds of weapons and a cool attack activity granting feat for all the eventual syntheses included in the final version of the class. I really think just one for each will really help make each synthesis stick out, but getting 2 of each would let magi really feel different from each other.
Getting those attack activity feats goes so far in making the magus feel dynamic and fun in play, much more even than more spell casting. I know more spell casting is something that feels important to a lot of players and so feats like martial casting make sense to me, but I really hope we end up with more feats in the vein of spell swipe scattered through the different levels of the final class.
I agree. If fits really well but i wish it wasn't needed. It just allows SO much more that stride, strike, cast...