Shinimas's page

Striking Spell is very bad, but the other parts of the class are pretty good. If you stop trying to make Striking Spell work and look at the class as a different flavor of Fighter/Wizard then it starts to feel better.

At early levels, being a normal warrior with a free +1 d12 weapon that can cast Magic Weapon to boot is hella strong. Later on you start feeling a bit below the curve, but you're still an okay warrior with some neat tricks.

Slide Casting is great... until you realize you need to use Striking Spell to make it do anything and Striking Spell sucks. Sustaining Steel at least does something for you sometimes. And if your enemy keeps moving then just walk up to them and hit them or cast a spell normally, because skipping turns trying to setup Striking Spell just isn't worth it.

To be honest, I only used True Strike during encounter 3.

With Haste, I felt the need was there, especially since I had the potions, which gave me an improved Hasted Assault due to the Bandolier.

What do you mean by that? Bandolier doesn't do anything to improve potion use, it's still 2 actions. So it would be: Free Action to let go of the two-handed weapon with one hand, Interact action to take the potion from the bandolier, Interact action to drink it, Interact action to re-grip the weapon with both hands. 3 actions in total.

I was under the effects of haste during all encounters, so what I’m describing is:

1st action Stride
2nd and 3rd Cast
4th Strike to deliver spell

I had a bandolier with eight potions of quickness. Drunk one before encounter 1, one before encounter 3 and one during 1st round of encounter 2

That said, I apologize if I got an order of actions wrong. My notes were scribbled by hand during the playthrough and then I compiled them here, which is why I didn’t have many details on encounter 3 (was really tired/tense with the encounter). I tried to remain as accurate as possible, though

Oh yeah, got it, thanks.

You describe Striding, using Striking Spell and Striking... you realize you can't do that in a single turn if you've got the Sustaining Steel synthesis, right? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

The Magus probably shouldn't be able to to be better with their weapons of choice (without magic) than the Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, and Monk can be with their weapon of choice.

I mean, the Magus was still a 3/4 BAB class in PF1 and the other four were full BAB in some capacity. The Magus essentially became a full BAB class in the 2e playtest, it shouldn't also get weapon training (which is what the fighter's legendary proficiency models).

Magus doesn't get Crit Spec or any weapon combat related feats.

Making the class to be all about Focus spells is a giant cop out in my opinion. Make it work with the already existing core feature.

Yeah, a warrior type class that casts magic by hitting people in the face with a sword appeals to people that want to kill stuff and be effectve in combat.

What else are you supposed to do with Magus anyway if it's not dishing out damage?

TKP and Electric Arc for reliable damage that just works™. Swap for Produce Flame/Acid Splash when crossing bridges and such.

Shield for starting combat by using Repeat a Spell exploration activity. Burn it right away.

Detect Magic and/or Read Aura, because you gotta have those.

Mage Hand for shenanigans.

Light if Human.

Honestly, I see no harm in making Striking Spell take two actions if you cast it with an Attack spell, in which case you replace the Somatic component with a Strike. Attack spells are worse than Save spells, after all. But I guess Paizo thinks it's OP if PCs get that?

Healer's Steel is actually great. You get more effective HP than a Fighter.

Here a hot take for you. I haven't run an actual game with a Magus, but after some tests in a vacuum I think Sustaining Steel is better than Slide Casting. Rather, a d8 weapon is weak as hell by itself. Striding and striking twice with a d12 weapon or striking + casting Shield is a fine first round. After that you can Alpha strike with 3 actions if needed. Having a big ass d12 beatstick means that just walking around and doing basic Strikes is still fairly effective, which is quite liberating.

You can't create a survivable character in PF2. Even if you max out on defense, the first APL+3 boss you meet will probably 1-round KO you. It's all about the d20 and how it flies for you that day.

Fighter is great.

Barbarian is great.

Rogue is slightly worse in combat, but easily complensates with utility.

Ranger is like a more specific Fighter that's not tied to a weapon, it's good.

Monk is okay, but comes off as a weaker Fighter to me. Not a huge fan.

Cleric can cast Heal, but most of the spells on the Divine list suck. But it can cast Heal, so it's good.

Oracle... no idea. Doesn't seem all that great on paper.

Wizard. Martials are blunt objects and most of the problems in this game are nails. Wizard is not great.

Swashbuckler. Use a skill once per round, Success: Be almost as good as a Fighter until the start of your next turn. It can kill things, but it's a straight up worse Fighter in combat.

Witch. No idea.

Druid. No idea.

Sorcerer. Elemental Sorcerer is ok, others suck. If you can cast Heal you're alright, plus an occasional Fireball doesn't hurt.

Investigator. A utility class, bad in combat.

Bard. Can cast Soothe. Not as good as Heal, but alright. Can cast Inspire Courage. Those two combined make this class alright.

Champion. Free healing? Best AC? Hard, no-save debuffs? Did I say free healing? Great class in combat. Up there with Fighter.

Alchemist. Not great. Is it bad, though? Yeah. It is.

While I agree with your reasoning, I think it's important to consider that Magus might not be designed to feel magical in the first place. If we agree that the design philosophy behind Magus is that it's a warrior first, mage second, then 4 spell slots look much more sensible.

Magus augments his martial prowess and physical power with magic, not the other way around. Therefore, when a Magus ecnounters a problem, his first instinct should be to resolve it through mundane means. Use academic knowledge, muscles, people skills etc. Magus uses his magical powers only when truly needed (Cantrips aside), which usually means combat.

Personally, I'm okay with 4 spell slots. Yeah, it's a tiny amount, but between Cantrips, Wands, Scrolls, Staves, Standby Spell feat, Martial Caster feat and caster Dedications, I feel like you can builds a Magus that uses magic regularly and with enough flexibility.

Low amount of powerful spells means that the class can be a balanced high-roller. It's all about those seldom, explosive moments. I think it's a unique and viable design philosophy for a class.

Martialmasters wrote:

Midnightoker wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Slowing the Magus's armor proficiency doesn't do anything about the dex vs str question, it just reduces AC for all builds.

I’d argue there’s no trade off for choosing strength Magus at all. It’s strictly better to build for strength as it is.

I at least felt the option to grab heavy would be appetizing for some. Oh well.

That's every martial but thief's.

Swashbuckler, Investigator, Bow Ranger, Crossbow Ranger, one handed dex based fighter, Any rogue but ruffian, Ranged Repisal Champion, Monk with dex stances, etc

So no, not every martial but thief.

And if you’re about to make some rebuttal about swashbucklers/investigators being bad, I’ve seen them in play and I don’t agree in the slightest.

Swashbuckler gets benefit from Strength. Investigator gets damage from Strength as well? Ranged builds are ranged builds, you can build a ranged Magus as well. Monk with dex stances still needs str to do damage... It's all the same. All melee builds except Thief go Dex route to get better skills and Dex saves in exchange for higher damage.

Magus isn't good enough, which is the main problem, but Sustain Steel is okay imo. It puts you at around martial-level HP over the course of a 3-4 round fight.

Magus Potency is odd. It's a basic spell that is only useful sometimes until you get a permanent upgrade (or if you get imprisoned and stripped of your gear or something). I don't want to see a deadweight ability in my arsenal, especially since it probably adds to the class power budget as far as balancing is concerned.

Otherwise some feats are just bad.

Eschew Materials is clasically useless.

Raise a Tome is just stupid. You block sword blows with a book? You read a book while in combat? Or you read it out of combat to get the bonus... I guess Magus is uniquely gifted with the ability to read? And it also disables your abilities that require you to have you off-hand free. Wtf is this.

Striker's Scroll has silly flavor, again. Make it so you inscribe the magical words on your weapon and that's it. You can have both a Talisman and a Scroll attached, but you can't recover the scroll, so it all balanced out. It's "just" flavor, sure, but I don't like abilities that look plain stupid in-character.

Shinimas wrote:

Somatic component gets replaced by a Strike is a must imo. So Strike+Cast a Spell as a 2-action activity. It counts as two attacks for MAP. The Spell lands if the Strike lands, but the Spell can never crit. Striking Spell gains the Fortune trait. The weapon stays charged until the end of the next turn.

Slide Casting is removed or made a very high level class Feat.

Sustaining Steel is made available for all melee weapons.

New Synthethis: Roaring Spell. If the Strike delivered during Striking Spell crits, the spell is a crit as well. This only works for Attack spells.

is the idea that we can all move when we cast? because being unable to move when i use spell strike would make me kinda sad.

Yeah, Striking Spell as a whole becomes a 2-action activity instead of a 3-action routine that we have right now. So you can move, cast Shield, raise Shield if you don't want to use any fancy Magus feats etc.

Perhaps the spell remaining charged for the next turn is OP though. Let's say we get rid of that. You miss with the SS - you lose the spell just the same as with normal casting.

Somatic component gets replaced by a Strike is a must imo. So Strike+Cast a Spell as a 2-action activity. It counts as two attacks for MAP. The Spell lands if the Strike lands, but the Spell can never crit. Striking Spell gains the Fortune trait. The weapon stays charged until the end of the next turn (this may be OP because you can strike+SS next turn for potentially gamebreaking results.

Slide Casting is removed or made a very high level class Feat.

Sustaining Steel is made available for all melee weapons.

New Synthethis: Roaring Spell. If the Strike delivered during Striking Spell crits, the spell is a crit as well. This only works for Attack spells.

Ligraph wrote:

Uh, no? Save spells work like this, attack spells (i.e. Shocking Grasp, Polar Ray, almost all cantrips) don't. The difference between save and attack spells does need to be considered here, but its not that great even with save spells currently (someone's ran the numbers, I don't have them handy).

And it can't be allowed to be 'great', lest Magus would invalidate all other martial classes.

Bit of a conundrum, but what would you rather see? The Spell Strike hitting more often, but for middling damage outside of crits, or swingy damage with the potential of really massive crits?

As for the accuracy issue: Apart from not being able to max out your casting stat on lv. 1, a Magus has a better chance to hit with his spell then a martial (other then Fighter) has with their second attack. It is basically equivalent to a Double Slice with a non-agile off-hand weapon.

And as an unique feature, a critical melee strike also boosts the effect of the attached spell one tier. This is not nothing.

You have to remember that Master weapon proficiency and Greater Weapon Specialisation are things that a Magus gets. So their primary melee attack is as potent as any other martial's, save for maybe hanging behind -1 to-hit half of the time on account of non-maxed melee stat.

And that means that Spell Strike has to be measured against a martial's second attack in a turn, with the caveat that the action tax they pay is severe and better results in a decent payoff.

But the chance to actually land their spell is only -2 compared to a full caster, which is equivalent to a second melee strike at -2 to to-hit compared to the first attack of any martial. You can't consider the Magus in a vacuum here, you must consider how they stack up to other martial classes. And most martial classes don't get a second attack at a generous -2 to to-hit.

Magus doesn't get the Critical Specialization effects though, so he's not as good as other martials at basic attacks. A fairly minor point, but still.

Plus every martial has a free power up for their basic attacks. Sneak Attack, high accuracy, Rage, Hunter's Edge etc. Magus gets none of that.

It doesn't. Rather, you're supposed to just stick with basic attacks when facing an enemy that can AoO, I guess.

I have to agree that the RAW appears to be that they can't use Staves. It's easy enough to allow, but it'd be better to spell out somewhere in the rules.

A spell slot of a level higher than the spell is appropriate since you can cast the spell from it.

I've playtested the Magus a little bit. I think it's somewhat weak, but I'll start with the things I like.

The limited spell slots and slot progression. This is fine, it frees up design space. It allows to give Magus better martial capabilities, forces the player to pick fitting spells, which emphasizes the Magus as a warrior, not a universalist that relies on magic to deal with all his problems.

Armor and weapon progression. Proper martial level and should stay like that.

Arcane only. Again, I like it. No need to make every caster capable of every spell. Specialization is good.

Now, the bad stuff.

Squishiness. D8 hit die is not a lot of HP. D8 combined with 12 CON (14 if you're going for Heavy Armor) is just not enough for a class that's forced to stay put in melee. Plus your supposedly martial spells trigger AoOs.

All or nothing. So much preparation, so many abilities used, resources spent... and then you miss. This leads to a very disappointing feeling. You miss, your turn ends, nothing's done.

Tactical limitation. Your optimal turn takes all 3 actions. There are cool feats like Spell Parry, but why would you use it? +1 to AC and Saves and now you're a Rogue without Sneak Attack and even worse defenses. I don't think using your class feats should lock you out of your main class ability. Demoralizing, Grappling, casting Shield etc.? Do any of that and your combat effectiveness plummets. Other classes are encourages to try something else either than striking thrice. Magus is backwards in this regard.

What can be done?

Striking Spell should be buffed. Free Action to prepare a single target spell, then you cast it and make the Strike as a part of the cast, replacing the Somatic component with the swing. The spell loses the Manipulate trait. MAP only increases after both Strikes are made. If your off-hand isn't free you take a -1 penalty to the spell attack roll. Now it's like Double Slice, but with a spell. Weaker than Double Slice if you're using a Cantrip, stronger if you're using a slotted spell.

Slide Casting should be made a high level class feat. Sustaining Steel should work with all melee weapons.

Now you're free to take Sustaining Steel and become just a little bit tougher, which is needed to survive in melee.

I'm a little confused by the motivation to alter the rules.

As-is, the rules work thus:

1) A party trying to travel unnoticed, or deliberately waiting in ambush, rolls Stealth for initiative.

2) The other side rolls Perception for initiative, unless they were doing something that would call for another trait (like trying to set an ambush themselves).

3) These initiative rolls determine the order creatures act in and...

4) If the Stealth rolls for initiative meet or exceed the Perception DCs of creatures on the opposed side, those creatures start the encounter unaware of the sneaking character.

So if you've rolled well enough to establish "surprise", the rules already have you likely going before your enemies and those enemies not realizing you are there - and if your enemies did happen to beat your initiative they are still not able to do anything to you if they aren't aware of you, so at best they can take some seek actions to try and notice you or continue on about whatever they were doing.

Effectively, there is still a "we get to act while the other side doesn't" at the beginning of an encounter, despite that it's not a special extra round with a specific name and specific limitations.

The situation when you win at stealth but lose at initiative happens all the time and the whole system breaks down at that point. Do enemies who are unaware of the attackers just keep moving and move 75-90 feet forward? Some maps aren't even that large and it looks and feels silly. Do enemies magically "feel that something is wrong" and start spamming the Seek action? Why? There's no narrative support for all that.

Ambush rules are terrible and require houseruling.