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As a heads-up, that's okay! Investigator really knocked it out of the park for me.
Useful context: I like Summoner in PF1, but I've only done short-lived Synthesist builds. Why? Because generally I don't care about the actual summoner part of it. I had ideas for regular Summoners, but 2+Int skills got in the way. I loved Spiritualist. One of my favorite characters was one with a Kindness phantom. (Okay, with six phantoms thanks to an archetype, but Kindness was the main one.)
I was excited for this to release, but after seeing it, I'm not really that interested in playing one, so I'm gonna try and pick apart why. In the process, I might resolve some of my issues. I hope this is helpful.
A big part of my enjoyment of Unchained Summoner in PF1 was the outsider options. There are a bunch of flavorful outsider types; I'm fond of the various fiends, psychopomps, and proteans. I can maybe get behind an angel with John Dee occult vibes. All of that, though, is now tied to the divine list. No illusions, no charms, very few compulsions, no Haste, in short… no trickery and no shenanigans. And I know Summoner's list in PF1 didn't have most of that either, but I could at least read minds, shapeshift, turn invisible, possess people, and turn people into weasels. Divine list continues to have the boring "black and white" feeling that rankles and doesn't fit the characters I enjoy playing.
So, what lists have those things? Arcane and Occult.
Arcane has a dragon, and will probably add constructs. I'm really not big on the pet dragon thing at all (I quite like Paizo's general approach of making dragons rare and powerful), but in typing this up, I do realize that pretending to be a dragon is one of the things I've wanted to do. My first Pathfinder character was a rather involved backstory Synthesist Summoner with an excuse for why he stopped being a dragon at night. But, I can't do (most of my) magic as a dragon, and I can't use magic items. If the character is working around that by transforming privately to keep up a charade? Okay, that's one character concept! (At least, if Synthesis stops dropping my Deception by four points and removing all my skill feats.)
Construct? I didn't care for Inevitable in PF1 either. Buuut, this won't be restricted to a boring rule-abiding biped. Possible candidate.
On to Occult! This is where I was really excited beforehand. Aberrations! Abominations from beyond the stars!
Regardless of their nature, each occult eidolon has a connection to a particular emotion.
… Darn.
Okay, we're going Spiritualist here! That was one of the predictions, and I like the class. What'd we get for our phantom? Dedication Devotion (good choice on the name change) is not a very exciting emotion, and the abilities are very dry. Stand by your summoner (who is supposed to be hiding or at least flanking) to protect them, better saves, and take two damage to block five damage in an area. The specific phantom is a bit of a let-down coming from a Kindness phantom providing the utility of a bunch of magical healing and a larger Aid Another bonus on all skills.
The problem is, very little I like about Spiritualist is here. Spiritualist was great generalist utility, but I only get four spells known- that's enough to fake it a bit, but I'll be worse utility than a multiclass caster. The phantom was an amazing scout capable of phasing through walls right from first level, but that's obviously not part of eidolons. I was able to build my phantom with versatile tricks like pulling out whatever item was needed, or picking up an obscure skill we needed on the fly, but they don't have feat slots.
Now, it does do one thing much better than Spiritualist. It can fight. I could never get my Greed phantom character idea to the point of actually being useful enough to play, so if we got that, I'd have a ready-made character idea that would work better in PF2.
As far as the Primal list goes, a fey eidolon would be cool, but my character can't cast much by way of fey-like spells using the Primal list (mostly Charm), so I'd probably just pass.
TL;DR
- The spell list limitation kills a lot of my interest in the character possibilities that drew me to Unchained Summoner.
- Occult eidolons are insufficiently spirit-y to capture the Spiritualist appeal, and don't seem interested in doing more corporeal abominations without tying them to an emotion. I've got an idea that works great when they get to Greed, but Devotion is uninspiring and I don't know how to use its main ability.
- The new arcane options are workable. It feels a lot like playing a Chained Summoner, because when I sat down to a blob of stats in PF1, "make a dragon" was the first thing I thought of. On the flip side, that also means it doesn't feel better than getting a blob of stats and a breath weapon evolution.
- PF2's skill progression does provide the "why don't you just go play one in PF1" answer for Summoner, but not for Spiritualist.
What would help fix this for me?
- Make the spell list a suggestion for each summons type, not a requirement. Divine list with Beast for a Gozren or Lamashtan, occult list with Angel for a John Dee-esque character, primal list with Dragon for a primal dragon, and arcane list with Devotion for a necromancer who preserved the mind of their lover.
- More eidolon customization/shared customization. I don't think it's too unbalanced to share skill feats… it's a boost for things like Battle Medicine, it's true.
- Viable eidolon-as-character. The Synthesis restrictions are a little too harsh to do it right now.
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What would help fix this for me?
- Make the spell list a suggestion for each summons type, not a requirement. Divine list with Beast for a Gozren or Lamashtan, occult list with Angel for a John Dee-esque character, primal list with Dragon for a primal dragon, and arcane list with Devotion for a necromancer who preserved the mind of their lover.
- More eidolon customization/shared customization. I don't think it's too unbalanced to share skill feats… it's a boost for things like Battle Medicine, it's true.
- Viable eidolon-as-character. The Synthesis restrictions are a little too harsh to do it right now.
Nice write-up! Putting feelings into words is helpful for understanding each others' perspectives on this playtest class.
How would you feel about adding appropriate spells to the eidolon entry that you could choose with Greater Magical Evolution? Not every eidolon would need or have them, but a Fey eidolon could choose charm or hideous laughter instead of a primal spell if they wanted.
I do think there is an opportunity to do something with Skill Feats.
I agree we need a viable Synthesist and that non-Phantom (and thus non-emotion) Occult Eidolons are a must. I mean, at least Aberration needs an Eidolon type for weird eldritch creatures.
I got the sense that aberrations would relate to the more negative emotions, but I’m not sure that was intended. What would you say to an Eldritch aberration eidolon keyed to Horror?
I agree we need a viable Synthesist and that non-Phantom (and thus non-emotion) Occult Eidolons are a must. I mean, at least Aberration needs an Eidolon type for weird eldritch creatures.I got the sense that aberrations would relate to the more negative emotions, but I’m not sure that was intended. What would you say to an Eldritch aberration eidolon keyed to Horror?
Definitely better than nothing, but then it's just going to get mental effects instead of anything related to a weird body. That covers quelaunt-esque stuff, but I'd kind of enjoy something leaning into the shapeshifter angle of doppelgangers/mimics, or putting some mechanical oomph behind the whole betentacled aspect.
Just reading the eidolon description it seems very likely that aberrant will already be a base Occult type that just isn't in the test.
If I had to guess and read between the lines, I wouldn't be surprised if Mark has three sketched out for each of the types:
Arcane: Dragon, Construct, Amalgam
Divine: Angel, Demon, Psychopomp
Primal: Beast, Plant, Fey
Occult: Phantom (devotion), Phantom (something else?), AberrantFor what it's worth, just based on the description of Amalgam, I would be willing to guess that one might be much more free form. I could see it's initial, mid, and final powers being a free form "Pick a bonus evolution feat", sort of how the Fury Instinct for Barbarians is a bit more vanilla on theme and offers more feat selection instead of raw upgrades.
Ah, you're better at reading between the lines. If you're right about Amalgam, that would really help round out Arcane's "Chained Summoner" feel and open up a lot of possibilities.
With Aberrant, I'm worried about the statement that all occult eidolons are tied to an emotion regardless; it prevents occult from getting something like "Shapeshifter" or "Ancestor". (Although those could fall under other categories.)
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Just reading the eidolon description it seems very likely that aberrant will already be a base Occult type that just isn't in the test.
If I had to guess and read between the lines, I wouldn't be surprised if Mark has three sketched out for each of the types:
Arcane: Dragon, Construct, Amalgam
Divine: Angel, Demon, Psychopomp
Primal: Beast, Plant, Fey
Occult: Phantom (devotion), Phantom (something else?), AberrantFor what it's worth, just based on the description of Amalgam, I would be willing to guess that one might be much more free form. I could see it's initial, mid, and final powers being a free form "Pick a bonus evolution feat", sort of how the Fury Instinct for Barbarians is a bit more vanilla on theme and offers more feat selection instead of raw upgrades.
Ah, you're better at reading between the lines. If you're right about Amalgam, that would really help round out Arcane's "Chained Summoner" feel and open up a lot of possibilities.
With Aberrant, I'm worried about the statement that all occult eidolons are tied to an emotion regardless; it prevents occult from getting something like "Shapeshifter" or "Ancestor". (Although those could fall under other categories.)
I feel like "Ancestor" would just be one of the Phantoms with an emotional focus appropriate to the ancestor spirit that became your eidolon.
I feel like "Ancestor" would just be one of the Phantoms with an emotional focus appropriate to the ancestor spirit that became your eidolon.Just reading the eidolon description it seems very likely that aberrant will already be a base Occult type that just isn't in the test.
If I had to guess and read between the lines, I wouldn't be surprised if Mark has three sketched out for each of the types:
Arcane: Dragon, Construct, Amalgam
Divine: Angel, Demon, Psychopomp
Primal: Beast, Plant, Fey
Occult: Phantom (devotion), Phantom (something else?), AberrantFor what it's worth, just based on the description of Amalgam, I would be willing to guess that one might be much more free form. I could see it's initial, mid, and final powers being a free form "Pick a bonus evolution feat", sort of how the Fury Instinct for Barbarians is a bit more vanilla on theme and offers more feat selection instead of raw upgrades.
Ah, you're better at reading between the lines. If you're right about Amalgam, that would really help round out Arcane's "Chained Summoner" feel and open up a lot of possibilities.
With Aberrant, I'm worried about the statement that all occult eidolons are tied to an emotion regardless; it prevents occult from getting something like "Shapeshifter" or "Ancestor". (Although those could fall under other categories.)
Absolutely! But it'd be fun getting one with an ancestry feat and stuff like that.
Absolutely! But it'd be fun getting one with an ancestry feat and stuff like that.I feel like "Ancestor" would just be one of the Phantoms with an emotional focus appropriate to the ancestor spirit that became your eidolon.Just reading the eidolon description it seems very likely that aberrant will already be a base Occult type that just isn't in the test.
If I had to guess and read between the lines, I wouldn't be surprised if Mark has three sketched out for each of the types:
Arcane: Dragon, Construct, Amalgam
Divine: Angel, Demon, Psychopomp
Primal: Beast, Plant, Fey
Occult: Phantom (devotion), Phantom (something else?), AberrantFor what it's worth, just based on the description of Amalgam, I would be willing to guess that one might be much more free form. I could see it's initial, mid, and final powers being a free form "Pick a bonus evolution feat", sort of how the Fury Instinct for Barbarians is a bit more vanilla on theme and offers more feat selection instead of raw upgrades.
Ah, you're better at reading between the lines. If you're right about Amalgam, that would really help round out Arcane's "Chained Summoner" feel and open up a lot of possibilities.
With Aberrant, I'm worried about the statement that all occult eidolons are tied to an emotion regardless; it prevents occult from getting something like "Shapeshifter" or "Ancestor". (Although those could fall under other categories.)
The way I could see that working would be an Evolution feat that gave your Phantom Eidolon an appropriately-leveled ancestry feat.
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I never played a summoner in pf1, but I'm at a loss about what to do with the pf2 players version.
I'm looking for weird abilities in my minions so I gravitated towards the phantom.
The phantom can't fly, can't move through walls, isn't hard to see and isn't immune to any kind of damage.
How is it a phantom?
Plus the special attack only works after we take damage, which is just weaksauce.
Just letting it manifest more quickly or at greater range would be something.
Not much, but something.
In general, what can theses pets do that you can't?
They hit things, move , and defend no better than a human, plus they can't access the same feats or equipment to help them.
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I never played a summoner in pf1, but I'm at a loss about what to do with the pf2 players version.
I'm looking for weird abilities in my minions so I gravitated towards the phantom.
The phantom can't fly, can't move through walls, isn't hard to see and isn't immune to any kind of damage.
How is it a phantom?Plus the special attack only works after we take damage, which is just weaksauce.
Just letting it manifest more quickly or at greater range would be something.
Not much, but something.In general, what can theses pets do that you can't?
They hit things, move , and defend no better than a human, plus they can't access the same feats or equipment to help them.
In the tightly regimented and thoroughly balanced system that is Pathfinder 2E, abilities like Flight and Intangibility are strictly controlled and limited to being available only with Caveats or after a certain level.
Simply put, its largely on you through roleplaying to bring the "Phantom" to your Phantom Eidolon.
Capability wise, the Eidolon brings stats and proficiencies to your character that the Summoner doesn't have. That NO spellcaster has, in terms of proficiency. Over time, the Eidolon will excel in things your Summoner will struggle with, allowing you to develop your characters abilities along divergent paths.
As well, given time you can pick up things that will enhance your eidolons capabilities - and Greater Magical evolution is especially potent for duplicating signature effects.
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I agree with the OP pretty strongly in terms of ideas for improvements. The summoner having access to all lists like the sorcerer was a huge flavor boon, but it does restrict a lot of perfectly viable concepts when it comes to eidolons that kinda dip into multiple areas when you lock each eidolon into one specific list.
I would also really like to see more level one eidolon customization, like a ranged option for a bralani azata themed eidolon, or taking the trip trait for my dire wolf eidolon.
Definitely gonna echo better synthesist support. Atm it takes way too much and gives very little. I still want to see it as a feat, however, and not something that's locked behind a "summoner style"
Overall, eidolons imo just need more evolutions that grant actions. The dragon eidolon currently is my favorite if only because the breath weapon is just a really exciting and unique choice, IMO. More stuff like that would be very welcome
Also, it feels like a bit of an elephant in the room, but the summoner is not very good at summoning. The two metamagic feats are actually really exciting, but the summoner have much fewer slots (and therefore less summoning ability!) and can't ever reach the highest level of summoning. A "summoning font" or summoning focus spell can alleviate this
Unfortunately due to game balance your just going to have to accept your dragon is more komdo than dragon, your shade is more a guy in a sheet than a shade.
Questions like why you your an angel/dragon has wings but can't use them and how come my shade is tangible, can be posioned and catch a cold (ie made out of meat), will avail you naught.
But questions like these are only likely to bug you for a short time before you simply come to accept your eidolons short comomings, learm to turn a blind eye to their inherent illogic or start intentionally lampooning it.
To be fair the potential for scoobydoo eidolons is actually quite a lot of fun.
Th dragon eidolon who is kobold with a alchemist fire thrower, the guy in a sheet shade, the beast eidolon who is a furry, the angel who bought whose wings made out of finest goose feathers.
Or, you know, you can play it as intended in Good Faith and have fun playing it seriously.
Your dragon ignores cliff walls by flying from 5th level (when evolution surge adds a climb speed), flies on demand at 9th, and can do practically any iconic trick your spell lists allows via Greater Magical Evolution.
Playing in a game thats balanced means making some concessions that you're playing within limits. Its not ridiculous unless you make it ridiculous.
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Unfortunately due to game balance your just going to have to accept your dragon is more komdo than dragon, your shade is more a guy in a sheet than a shade.
Questions like why you your an angel/dragon has wings but can't use them and how come my shade is tangible, can be posioned and catch a cold (ie made out of meat), will avail you naught.
But questions like these are only likely to bug you for a short time before you simply come to accept your eidolons short comomings, learm to turn a blind eye to their inherent illogic or start intentionally lampooning it.
To be fair the potential for scoobydoo eidolons is actually quite a lot of fun.
Th dragon eidolon who is kobold with a alchemist fire thrower, the guy in a sheet shade, the beast eidolon who is a furry, the angel who bought whose wings made out of finest goose feathers.
Or, you know, you can play it as intended in Good Faith and have fun playing it seriously.
Your dragon ignores cliff walls by flying from 5th level (when evolution surge adds a climb speed), flies on demand at 9th, and can do practically any iconic trick your spell lists allows via Greater Magical Evolution.
Playing in a game thats balanced means making some concessions that you're playing within limits. Its not ridiculous unless you make it ridiculous.
Your shade has no adaptions to make it shade like, it functions entirely like a creature made flesh and blood its vunerable to diseases and poison it needs to breath which probably means it has lungs hidden in its ectoplasm. Given this is what the mechanics are telling us a shade eidolon is taking them at face value seems in perfectly good faith. If they wanted people to treat their shade eidolons like a shade they should have made them like a shade.
If they are going to stick to this design paradigm then the should avoid creatures that aren't corporeal and subject to all the vulnerabilities a human is otherwise you will end something...
1) What's a shade? You mean Phantom?
2) Phantom's in P1 were the same way, they were living outsiders with incorporeal traits, they were not undead.
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A smart persistent Unseen Servant is too much to ask?
Attacks are not even necessary to me, since telekinetic projectile is a thing.
The utility of a creature means something, as does the expendablity.
Right now you get neither.
The boosts that the conduit cantrips give make me think why not be a Bard and boost everyone with one action?
Probably not a fair comparison,Bards seem be the spellcasters with the best gimmick.
I would love it if I could become a fantasy beast, or have a warrior transformation, using SYNTHESIS.
But starting out, you are no better a fighter when you combine plus you can't cast spells, even self boosting conduit spells.
You'd get better at fighting at 3rd and again at 5th,but until then you are what?
No better at it than if you just swing a sword.
Plus, you can't use weapons or armor, so your AC and damage could actually be worse.
If we got some control over the initial attribute distribution we could build a "master blaster " team, one brute and one brain, but no such luck.
There does seem to be a way to scout through doors.
If you stand next to the door, can you Manifest eidolon into the space on the other side?
If so, it could be good for getting past doors and scouting , though the summoner is bound to take some damage.
BTW, how does one dismiss the eidolon?
Right now I'm comparing this class against regular old summoning.
Would I want to summon a single level appropriate creature at will if it meant I shared the hit points with said creature?
Maybe, depending on their abilities.
A Sprite has a 40' fly speed, evidently it would be OP...
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there are limits to how far reflavoring go's for most people. Climbing just doesn't have the right feel of flight, and to many small, technical differences for it to really mesh for me (can't just fly over opponents, the need of a wall, how you can just stop without needing to do anything). Personally, some forms of sub templates you can put on your eidolon at level one would be perfect. like one that reduces your size and damage to give it flight ( probably with some caveats to avoid most shenanigan's) or one that gives it negative healing, or one that makes it more resilient but much harder to heal (for constructs, undead, less physical phantoms and other things that aren't alive in the traditional sense)
Part of the cost of a balanced game is accepting that you have to make concessions to balance - as a player, that often means working with less than you'd like.
In a game of imagination, its not exactly a stretch to ask you to push the limits a little bit. I know a Climb speed isn't equal to Flight- but its pretty darned close to Levitation which is the level appropriate version. You cant fly over enemies, but no wall or chasm is going to stand in your way - which is pretty darned appropriate for a flying creature. Anyone who says otherwise is getting in the way of the narrative on a mechanical technicality.
The end result is a game thats easier both to run and play, because everyone involved knows that Flying isn't expected at all of players until level 7 at the earliest, and won't be a major consideration until level 9 where it becomes widely available.
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Have you ever played starfinder for their summoning apart from a few exceptions the summons were all lesser to elder elemental stat blocks with graft (a few thematic abities, resitances and vunerbailities) to individualise them.
I feel the pathfinder 2e summmoner is very much in that vain they all share a basic stat block. But unlike starfinder they don't apply graft of thematic abities to there summons. Everyone gets the same basic elemetal template and are told to name it what they want.
I know the spell lists changes but that pretty much feel completely tangential to the eidolon itself.
I mean... you know we got a fraction of the examples of the ones going to be in the full release, and that the stat blocks were likely normalized for testing right?
Also, I'd hesitate to call the templates we got samey. The abilities each type gets aren't huge, but they are important and potent.
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Except for Phantom when they did, they could assume an Incorporeal form, it wasn't their default form.at level 8. usually more then half the campaign in.A spiritualist can fully manifest her phantom through a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When the phantom is fully manifested, the spiritualist can change the form of the phantom’s manifestation (either from ectoplasmic to incorporeal or vice versa) as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.Spiritualist phantoms were incorporeal from level 1 at no extra cost. It was a built in part of what made Phantoms "a Phantom".
Also Shades were a type of Companion you could have via PF1 Shadowdancer. You also could make something very similar using PF1 Eidolons and either the Shadow subtype or evolutions
1E was not strictly balanced liked 2E is. "I had incorporeal from level 1 in 1E." Doesn't affect when it should be available - if at all - in 2E.
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In fairness, incorporeality plus a complete inability to attack isn't a very unbalancing effect. It's helpful for getting through locked doors, and maybe escaping combat if you have something like Synthesis (though maybe not, it taking 3 actions to switch sounds right and makes using it as an escape tricky).
It should probably not be available from level 1, but I can easily see it as a relatively low level effect. I mean, Gaseous Form is available at 7th level, and this would probably be less powerful than that in a few different ways.
In fairness, incorporeality plus a complete inability to attack isn't a very unbalancing effect. It's helpful for getting through locked doors, and maybe escaping combat if you have something like Synthesis (though maybe not, it taking 3 actions to switch sounds right and makes using it as an escape tricky).
It should probably not be available from level 1, but I can easily see it as a relatively low level effect. I mean, Gaseous Form is available at 7th level, and this would probably be less powerful than that in a few different ways.
This actually seems solidly more powerful than Gaseous Form to me? You can walk through (and hide in) walls instead of just slipping through cracks, and the resistances are much broader. Other than the slow fly speed, I'm not seeing what Gaseous Form would have going for it. Since the spell is on par with Fly, that would plausibly put at-will incorporeal as 16th level evolution…
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Incorporeal summons are available at 8th level,and you don't have to share hit points with them.
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I think I found a solution in my sub-templates thread, but the basics is we have certain modifications you can put on your eidolon at level 1, giving you some benefits like flight or resistance by giving it hindrances in other areas (like damage and size for flight). Most things are only broken at level one when you can do them and X at the same time like fly and b carry others, so if we just stop them or make it much harder to do X it should be fine.The longer it goes the more I think the feat levels are too high.
And the more I think that feats is too much of a bottleneck to support eidolon and summoner.
I'm not sure about picking specific abilities but I'm not opposed to subtypes like Animal Companions have.
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This actually seems solidly more powerful than Gaseous Form to me? You can walk through (and hide in) walls instead of just slipping through cracks, and the resistances are much broader.
Incorporeal doesn't come with any Resistances. Most incorporeal creatures have some, but that's determined on a per creature basis, and those granted to the Eidolon need not be any better than those of Gaseous Form, or lower.
As for hiding in walls...this is a fantasy setting. Nothing is airtight, the difference between only being able to do this when things aren't airtight and always being able to do it is basically academic the vast majority of the time. Also, you are incapable of perceiving things while inside a wall. There are some niche uses to incorporeality that gaseous form can't do, but not really very many, and none that are worth giving up flight for.
Other than the slow fly speed, I'm not seeing what Gaseous Form would have going for it. Since the spell is on par with Fly, that would plausibly put at-will incorporeal as 16th level evolution…
Permanent flight you can use in-combat breaks many low level encounters. That is the explicit reason for it only being available at such high levels according to Mark Seifter.
Permanent non combat flight is available at significantly lower levels, and is much better than being incorporeal anyway, since it solves a significantly greater range of problems.
Now, permanent incorporeality combined with an attack you can actually use, that would be a level 16 ability, but not being able to attack really limits its utility.
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Incorporeal doesn't come with any Resistances. Most incorporeal creatures have some, but that's determined on a per creature basis, and those granted to the Eidolon need not be any better than those of Gaseous Form, or lower.
Incorporeal comes with a category of resistances- everything but force and ghost touch (instead of just physical) and it doubles against non-magical damage.
As for hiding in walls...this is a fantasy setting. Nothing is airtight, the difference between only being able to do this when things aren't airtight and always being able to do it is basically academic the vast majority of the time. Also, you are incapable of perceiving things while inside a wall. There are some niche uses to incorporeality that gaseous form can't do, but not really very many, and none that are worth giving up flight for.
Hmm, could just be me. Lots of stone walls in what I've seen, so gaseous form is mostly limited to going through doors.
Permanent non combat flight is available at significantly lower levels, and is much better than being incorporeal anyway, since it solves a significantly greater range of problems.
Now, permanent incorporeality combined with an attack you can actually use, that would be a level 16 ability, but not being able to attack really limits its utility.
Hmm, that's a good point. So this would be more comparable to whenever you can get an hour of flying form at for Druid. So I guess it'd be around 12th level?
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Animal companions get flight at level 2, with restrictions that prevent the PC from using it.
They also get their own hit points and significant special attacks.
You can have them without giving up full casting.
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Level one actually.Animal companions get flight at level 2, with restrictions that prevent the PC from using it.
They also get their own hit points and significant special attacks.
You can have them without giving up full casting.
Animal Companions get more mobility in general than eidolons. Eidolos all seem built around having exactly the same statistics including movement. Animal companions are built to simulate the animals they are. Animal companions feel unique and different. Eidolons not so much.
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Incorporeal comes with a category of resistances- everything but force and ghost touch (instead of just physical) and it doubles against non-magical damage.
This is incorrect. Check the rules here.
To quote them:
Incorporeal creatures usually have immunity to effects or conditions that require a physical body, like disease, poison, and precision damage. They usually have resistance against all damage (except force damage and damage from Strikes with the ghost touch property rune), with double the resistance against non-magical damage.
Emphasis mine.
The Resistance you list is normal and standard for an incorporeal creature, but nothing mandates it, and an ability making the Eidolon have it is not mandatory in that ability making them incorporeal.
And even if it were, the amount of Resistance would be entirely dependent on the specific effect making them incorporeal. A single point of Resistance is a marginal benefit, even if it doubles vs. non-magical stuff.
Now, I'd expect them to very possibly get more than that, depending on the level of the ability, but the rules don't require even that one point of Resistance.
Hmm, could just be me. Lots of stone walls in what I've seen, so gaseous form is mostly limited to going through doors.
If we're talking natural caves, this will sometimes be true (though a lot of those have cracks). Actual castle walls or the like definitely have plenty of cracks.
Hmm, that's a good point. So this would be more comparable to whenever you can get an hour of flying form at for Druid. So I guess it'd be around 12th level?
I honestly think it's a lot less useful than flight. It's not useless by any means, but I'd peg it at 6th to 8th level. Maybe something like you can do it briefly at 4th (one minute per hour or something like that), do it as long as you like at 8th, and attack while incorporeal at 16th. I could see that.
I could see the incorporeal effect getting limited to occult eidolons specifically, but level 6-8 for an option that loses it's ability to attack and fight works for me.
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I could see the incorporeal effect getting limited to occult eidolons specifically, but level 6-8 for an option that loses it's ability to attack and fight works for me.
Oh, I definitely think it should be limited to appropriate creatures (so mostly Phantoms), I'm discussing purely what level it should come in at.
Have you ever played starfinder for their summoning apart from a few exceptions the summons were all lesser to elder elemental stat blocks with graft (a few thematic abities, resitances and vunerbailities) to individualise them.
I feel the pathfinder 2e summmoner is very much in that vain they all share a basic stat block. But unlike starfinder they don't apply graft of thematic abities to there summons. Everyone gets the same basic elemetal template and are told to name it what they want.
I know the spell lists changes but that pretty much feel completely tangential to the eidolon itself.
That was what I was hoping for, more or less. I'd have even sucked up the lack of customization in general if they opened up that many forms for use.
Especially if they went the whole mile and designed a summoning spell that could summon creatures using those templates (as appropriate to your tradition, of course).