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80 feet back isn't very far. I can use all my actions to reach the summoner. And in practicality, your hypothetical situation doesn't really happen in a dungeon or a group situation because if you're 80 feet back, you're making yourself vulnerable to other hazards that might be coming up or monsters attacking you after wandering by you.Besides, even if that's true you can't have the Eidolon be stronger than Martial characters - its way to easy to protect the Summoner for any party that cares, or with simple tactics. Its not a meaningful weakness if its easily mitigated.If the two are sharing HP and the summoner has significantly lower AC than the Eidolon, it is definitely a weak point. You have lower AC, more vulnerable to crits, disadvantage on AOE, etc. The summoner is a liability and imo this is how it should be so we FEEL like we have a STRONG Eidolon rather than just some weak sorry excuse for a monster.Significantly lower AC and weak to AoEs and... end of extra vulnerabilities?
Everyone acts like Summoners will be standing in the open waiting to die.
How about standing 80 feet back, 3 move actions away from the enemy? Around a corner, outside of line of site? Maybe dont stand side by side when opening doors on the other side of which monsters may dwell?
If you're making it easy for a foe to get to your Summoner, that's on you. Summoners have several ways to contribute from safety as it stands.
First, if you use all your actions to move to me I just ate three of your actions with no save. Uh, that's hilariously awesome and go me. Better than any spell.
Second, in a dungeon you just need to be a single room or corner back and out of sight for nearly complete safety. Distance ceases to matter if there's no practical way for enemies in the next room to know you exist.
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Even more hilarious when you use Transposition next round.First, if you use all your actions to move to me I just ate three of your actions with no save. Uh, that's hilariously awesome and go me. Better than any spell.
Second, in a dungeon you just need to be a single room or corner back and out of sight for nearly complete safety. Distance ceases to matter if there's no practical way for enemies in the next room to know you exist.
And your party catches up and is now flanking with your eidolon.
Its the very definition of "Not As Planned"
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You mean transpositioning right into the fray where everyone else is... fighting?
Like I said. You can theory craft best case scenarios all you want, but in practice, this just does not happen.
If its an encounter with more than one foe, its unlikely any of them that your party can't simply ignore is enough of a threat to take you down in one turn.
At level or below level enemies aren't threatening enough to kill you in this situation.
Enemies threatening enough to kill you won't have the numbers to pull off these sorts of maneuvers freely.
You can theory craft worst case scenarios all you want, but in practice I've never seen anything remotely similar happen.
Balanced 5-6 monster scenarios won't have more than one enemy that can one shot a pc, generally, at worst.
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I'm a little behind in the discussion here, but there has been discourse around an issue that the Summoner needs to be presented in a manner that condenses content as much as possible so it'll actually fit into the book.
If we are keeping specific abilities for Eidolon family types, such that angels, beasts, dragons, elementals, fiends, etc each have their own little niche that no-one else gets (something that I am strongly in favour of, since it gives a lot of baseline flavour to help get the ideas flowing, and enables cool abilities that wouldn't be balanced for a single feat), we'll want a way to trim down the statblock presentation.
At the moment, there's quite a bit of space taken up by attacks, ability scores, and movement speed.
One idea I had would be to set up 'packages' of eidolon stats that can be used as a mechanical framework for any eidolon family. This could be used as a base to provide certain options at 1st level that would otherwise be practically mutually exclusive for either balance or power reasons.
It also enables you to have mechanical representation for different 'personalities' within each family. For example, an Summoner with an
elemental Eidolon is probably leaning down one of two routes; a djinn/ifreeti type eidolon with Charisma and personality, or a raw force of nature 'pure' elemental. The former wants some mental stats; the latter wants only physical stats. Having both be locked into a particular array is going to leave someone feeling awkward (I'm in that situation at the moment; looking at the Angel's 10 base CHA really doesn't help with my character vision).
Thus, the loadouts. Here's a few rough ideas:
"Feral": STR 18, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 10.
d10 & d6 agile attacks, 25 speed. For those who just want an animalistic Eidolon that's a physical nightmare. Great for Beasts, Aberrations, some Dragons, some Fiends, and 'pure' Elementals.
"Juggernaut": STR 18, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 12, CHa 10.
d12 & d6 agile attacks, 20 speed. This one I'm not so sure about, but it's a more extreme version of the Feral chassis.
"Cunning": STR 14, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 14, CHA 8.
d8 finesse & d6 agile finesse, 25 speed. For those who want a higher AC at the cost of worse damage output. Also a nice start for 'nerd' Eidolons. Great for Beasts, fey, phantoms, and works on pretty much anything.
"Presence": STR 18, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14.
d10 & d6 agile attacks, 25 speed. Another high damage option, but trades Fortitude for better social and Intimidation. Great for Angels, some Dragons, some Fiends, genie elementals, some phantoms, some fey, and scary Beasts.
"Charming": STR 14, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14.
d8 finesse & d6 agile finesse, 25 speed. Like the Cunning loadout, but for those that want more social skills than brains. Great for Angels, some Fiends, genie elementals, some phantoms, and fey.
"Ranger": STR 14, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 12.
d8 ranged & d6 finesse attacks, 25 speed. Worst damage, but can shoot at range. Great for elementals of all kinds, fey, archer Angels, and anyone who wants a "caster" eidolon.
"Swift": STR 18, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 10.
d8 & d6 agile, 35 speed. Not great damage, but excellent for hit and run. Works well with anything that Feral does.
These add a HUGE amount of flexibility and customization to the class without really making anything stronger, and at minimal cost to page space. They do also make ranged attacks available from 1st level without needing a feat.
As well as that, someone mentioned earlier the idea of some evolution feat chains that lean the Eidolons in particular directions. You can put a lot of abilities into each single feat that enable a ton of build and flavour flexibility from generic options. Each feat in the chain has the initial option as a prerequisite. For example:
Martial feat chain:
4: Choose one of disarm, grapple, nonlethal, shove, sweep, trip, or versatile BPS to add to one of your unarmed attacks.
8: Attack of Opportunity?
12: Choose one of deadly d8, forceful, or reach to add to one of your unarmed attacks.
Another feat chain can handle monstrous abilities. You could literally pile half-a-dozen abilities into one feat and just say "pick one". And then put the more dangerous ones at a higher level.
As well as that, we'd have the following feat option at 1st level:
Elemental Strikes: When you take this feat, choose one of acid, cold, electricity, fire, or poison damage. Whenever your eidolon attacks with an unarmed attack, you may have their attack deal the chosen damage type instead of its usual type.
Which leads into this at 4th level, though I wouldn't want to lock it behind a prerequisite:
Elemental Endurance: Choose one of acid, cold, electricity, fire, poison, or sonic damage. Your eidolon gains resistance to that damage type equal to half its level.
A few other notes.
I also love sharing HP- it's so thematically rich and works around issues of tracking HP (and having to heal two separate characters),
I don't like the idea of getting extra evolution feats in place of class features. Having a solid framework at 1st level with options for ability scores, a few abilities that are gained from your eidolon family at higher levels, and 10 class feat slots is enough mechanical customization. Being able to take even more options in place of ancestral or general options starts leaning too heavily into munchkin territory for my liking, and could be a problem to balance.
I'm a little behind in the discussion here, but there has been discourse around an issue that the Summoner needs to be presented in a manner that condenses content as much as possible so it'll actually fit into the book.
I didn't read your specific entries yet (time), but I had considered the idea of a system that was a two part "Creature Origin" and "Creature Archetype" setup, where the origin gave you your Spellcastype type, one skill and unique ability and the Creature Archetype gave you your stats and attack profile.
Its about as complicated as I would want something like that to be - and may be a compromise that works for adding a bit more customization at level 1, without going overboard.
Id personally be happy with a base type and a bonus evolution feat - but a two part simple construction wouldn't make me upset.
Uh.. the summoner has incredibly low AC. Low AC like any caster. If he is hit, chances are, he will be crit. And a single crit can bring someone down.
Incredibly low is an exaggeration. They have exactly the same AC as any caster, and are a single dedication from medium armor. Its nothing to panic over.
Besides, as noted, anything that can one shot you on anything short of multiple crits is going to be ABOVE your level, and therefore not going to be part of some hypothetical 5-6 monster encounter.
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I agree with the stats bit, but I disagree heavily with the evolutions bit at the bottom. I don't want to be a munchkin. But I do want my Eidolon to be a very unique creation unto me without being told to "just use a base and your imagination."
Getting choices of abilities at odd levels as class features isn't something that PF2E really does, the Fighter being the one exception.
Getting to trade out ancestry or general feats for more class options is DEFINITELY not something that PF2E does.
If we have a handful of feats that offer choices (weapon traits, energy types, monster abilities), as well as feats for casting (and focus casting), mobility, support abilities, etc, on top of getting a dozen creature type frameworks and a handful of ability score/attack frameworks to choose from, and getting casting as a Summoner... that's more customization for abilities than any other class in the game (aside from spell repertoires and preparations). You can absolutely have a unique eidolon before you even start getting into flavour.
The other thing is, we don't want too much choice to the point of getting decision paralysis. Having frameworks and generic abilities that can do anything with a little imagination is far more important for this class to be approachable and playable for most people than having a million discrete and defined options. Folding them into shared feats can also prevent combinations of abilities that would be too strong if they were their own feats, or you had space to just take everything.
Which is unfortunate for those who want a million discrete options, but it is the way that this entire edition is designed.
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If you're required to get a dedication in order to -not suck- then something is wrong.
Uh.. the summoner has incredibly low AC. Low AC like any caster. If he is hit, chances are, he will be crit. And a single crit can bring someone down.
Incredibly low is an exaggeration. They have exactly the same AC as any caster, and are a single dedication from medium armor. Its nothing to panic over.
Besides, as noted, anything that can one shot you on anything short of multiple crits is going to be ABOVE your level, and therefore not going to be part of some hypothetical 5-6 monster encounter.
Its just a recommendation for a security blanket if its important to improve your AC. If your summoner is regularly being attacked, you're standing in the wrong spot. It should not be easy to bypass your eidolon, your party, and get to you.
Actually here's an idea to save book space. Just give us 9 +2 bonuses to allocate however we wish for the Eidolon and let us get additional HP equal to the Eidolons con modifier to help counter balance the shared HP pool. It will give us a bonus of like ultimately +3/+4 HP per level which isn't much when we share HP...
The free boosts isn't a bad idea, but getting to go 18/18 in STR and DEX from 1st level is a little problematic.
Adding Eidolon CON to HP is interesting, but I don't think we'll need it.
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Getting to trade out ancestry or general feats for more class options is DEFINITELY not something that PF2E does.Uhhh
Natural ambition says hi?
A single example limited to a single Ancestry limited to the lowest level of class feats does not make your point, it refutes it.
It is a single highly limited exception to the general rule.
Getting to trade out ancestry or general feats for more class options is DEFINITELY not something that PF2E does.Uhhh
Natural ambition says hi?
A single example limited to a single Ancestry limited to the lowest level of class feats does not make your point, it refutes it.
It is a single highly limited exception to the general rule.
The moral of the story is that it's bad to speak in absolutes as there are inevitably exceptions.
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He said, and I quote, it is DEFINITELY not something that PF2 does.
I'd even go so far with the summoner to make all summoner feats be weaker than normal class feats as long as Eidolons get their evolution customization back. This is a very very important aspect of the class for me.
You want it all back at level 1.
I simply don't think thats likely, or necessary.
Certainly, I dont like your suggestions which invalidate peoples ideas or concepts from level 1 by mandating mechanics for everything.
Whether my Eidolons d8 slashing damage comes from tusks, claws or a sword is irrelevant.
Whether my armor comes from scales, hide, or armor is irrelevant.
Whether I move by walking on two legs, seven, or hovering slightly above the ground is utterly irrelevant.
Those are all things that should be present in description, not necessarily mechanics.
If we left things your way, I couldn't, say, create my Shiva or Ifrit Eidolons or my Diablo (from FF series) Eidolon or maybe even a Lovecraftian Eidolon. Having it open ended leaves it up to whatever I can come up with. My imagination.
Keeping the packages of angel, dragon, beast, phantom etc means I HAVE to have an angel, a dragon, a beast, a phantom etc. I cannot choose ANYTHING that paizo has not predestined for me and that does not feel good.
Every single example you've mentioned here is going explicitly supported to be in the core book, presumably.
There are currently four base forms in the playtest. Acting like that restriction is going to persist and you won't be able to make an elemental (shiva or ifrit), a fiend (gravity manipulation is probably going to need to be descriptive, im afraid), or an aberration is not helpful.
Those will be easy to make work, even in the current system, if we had the rest of the base forms.
To further emphasize, let's say a martial has the power of 10. The Eidolon has the power of 12 because his summoner is his weak point.
Remove the weak point and combine the two, you are essentially having a power of 12 martial Eidolon over the power of 10 regular martials which means you are more powerful than they are. If you lack that weak point, you should be more in line with other martials. But if that weak point exists, your Eidolon should be more powerful to compensate.
You don't seem to quite understand that the Summoner is not an Achilles heel.
If you simply removed the summoner from the current playtest and all you were left with was the Eidolon, you'd be massively weaker, not stronger.
Like, there is no scenario in which the class is stronger by keeping the Eidolon the same and without the Summoner existing in the class.
You gain so much power, versatility, spellcasting, action economy with the summoner present. There's no way you can look at a Synthesist who lacks all of that and think "You know what, i also think the Eidolon should be stronger for the regular Summoner."
Ifrits a Djinn, Shiva is the God of Endings, but the inspiration for the ff version is probably the Juki-Onma which is a yokai which is probably closest to a fae.If we left things your way, I couldn't, say, create my Shiva or Ifrit Eidolons or my Diablo (from FF series) Eidolon or maybe even a Lovecraftian Eidolon. Having it open ended leaves it up to whatever I can come up with. My imagination.
Keeping the packages of angel, dragon, beast, phantom etc means I HAVE to have an angel, a dragon, a beast, a phantom etc. I cannot choose ANYTHING that paizo has not predestined for me and that does not feel good.
Every single example you've mentioned here is going explicitly supported to be in the core book, presumably.
There are currently four base forms in the playtest. Acting like that restriction is going to persist and you won't be able to make an elemental (shiva or ifrit), a fiend (gravity manipulation is probably going to need to be descriptive, im afraid), or an aberration is not helpful.
Those will be easy to make work, even in the current system, if we had the rest of the base forms.
I was mostly referring to mechanics, where they're almost certainly best supported as Elementals. Arent Djinn and related actually elementals these days, or am I misremembering?
They all certainly sound Primal though as well.
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I honestly think Paizo should include an option that allows for more customization. An open ended option that may not be listed under the packages.
***trimmed for space***
Thoughts?
Super duper honestly?
For reals?
I'd totally support there being an Uncommon "Create your own" option for people who want it, implicitly subject to GM curation.
I dont think it should be the default.
Edit: more or less exactly how custom Backgrounds work.
Thoughts?
Except for the 1d8/1d4(agile) damage and maybe the choice of elemental, i think this is GREAT
The only reason i discount the 1d8/1d4(agile) is because i'm not sure these are the only attack choices you want. Die size and agile, i think there's a little more room for 2 more possible unarmed attack choices as well.
The choice of elemental might be a bit too generous though, but if you have some giant undead skeleton Eidolon i can understand wanting it to do all negative damage.
Monster abilities would be separate from evolutions right? Such as the 1/7/17 abilities Eidolons currently give, it would be great and add more of the feeling of customization for the actual Eidolon.
I honestly think Paizo should include an option that allows for more customization. An open ended option that may not be listed under the packages.
***trimmed for space***
Thoughts?
Super duper honestly?
For reals?
I'd totally support there being an Uncommon "Create your own" option for people who want it, implicitly subject to GM curation.
I dont think it should be the default.
I do because I also want to use something like this for PFS and PFS is what I mostly play as. I am willing to give concessions. You should as well. There should be an option to create your own for people to play it as. If a GM says no to create your own in a response, then that should be up to the GM. Fine. Whatever. But it should still be available to players who want more freedom.
I dont play PFS, but I am not given to understand that unusual player options are extremely openly available. Unusual races like tieflings are restricted - I would guess a custom Eidolon base form would be at least as restricted in any case.
My only concern is that if you're TOO versatile then you can bypass literally any resistance and exploit any weakness. It becomes a bit too much. Especially when adding in versatile (energy)
Thoughts?Except for the 1d8/1d4(agile) damage and maybe the choice of elemental, i think this is GREAT
The only reason i discount the 1d8/1d4(agile) is because i'm not sure these are the only attack choices you want. Die size and agile, i think there's a little more room for 2 more possible unarmed attack choices as well.
The choice of elemental might be a bit too generous though, but if you have some giant undead skeleton Eidolon i can understand wanting it to do all negative damage.
Yeah like i said, that's the only thing i'd be iffy on is the elemental choice of damage for your attacks. I like the idea of a dummy template for an Eidolon that you add flavor to though, very much; i think it's super choice and would satisfy a lot of people's desires.
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But this open ended create-your-own option will allow us to have more of the flavor of control over what our Eidolons are AND for those who don't want it, they get the packages they desire. Best part? Not much space is wasted on evolution options, so it conserves book space.
The fact it would save on page-space is another reason i think it's such an elegant solution.