Welcome to the Summoner Class Playtest!

[Mark Seifter]

Hi everyone and welcome to the summoner playtest, fans of the summoner from PF1 and new players alike! I'm Mark Seifter, Paizo's Design Manager and summoner lead.

As some of you know, I used to go by Rogue Eidolon on the forums, since at the time I made my very first post, I was playing a summoner as a fan in the PF1 APG playtest, when I started one for Council of Thieves. So it feels full circle for me to have designed the summoner for Pathfinder Second Edition. Please be respectful to each other in this subforum. There are a lot of opinions about summoner in various directions, and they're all valid. So let's stay focused on the summoner class in the playtest, and not on each other.

As Logan mentioned: most of our data comes through the playtest surveys (link below). Staff will visit the forums, but if you really want to make sure something gets to us, make sure you include it in your survey.
Actual play experience is vitally important! We appreciate opinions based on a read-through, but knowing how the class actually plays in a group during the game tells us much more.

I'm grateful you're here to take this journey with me!

~Mark

[Ediwir]

Thanks for your work Mark. I'll try to pick it apart respectfully.

[Pronate11]

Can a eidolon use non magical items? Their entry says they can't use magical items, but is the problem with the magic of magic items, or the item part? This is mostly for raising a shield, as they aren't proficient with weapons and armors, and have no way of becoming trained in them.

[NielsenE]

Is there a reason why Act Together has a frequency rather than a Flourish trait. It would seem to do the same thing in a possibly more standardized way? Is it to avoid blocking other flourish actions someone might pick up from a multiclass?

[KrispyXIV]

Can I use "nested" Tandem actions?

As in, can I use Act Together, choose Tandem Move for my action (allowing both myself and my Eidolon to Stride), and then my Eidolon chooses to Strike - all for one action, once per turn?

[Mark Seifter]

NielsenE wrote:

Is there a reason why Act Together has a frequency rather than a Flourish trait. It would seem to do the same thing in a possibly more standardized way? Is it to avoid blocking other flourish actions someone might pick up from a multiclass?

Mostly that if I put any other Frequency 1/round abilities on the summoner, I wouldn't want you to not be able to Act Together too. And there's no other flourishes in summoner so it's a mechanic you don't have to learn if it has none.

[Mark Seifter]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Can I use "nested" Tandem actions?

As in, can I use Act Together, choose Tandem Move for my action (allowing both myself and my Eidolon to Stride), and then my Eidolon chooses to Strike - all for one action, once per turn?

You can't do that for a different reason. Tandem Move isn't "your" action it's a tandem action. That's why we made the tandem trait in the end, actually, it used to explicitly list Tandem Move and "other actions where both you and your eidolon act" as things you can't do.

[Staffan Johansson]

As I understand it, a summoner could double-dip on property runes by having one set on a pair of handwraps and another on a magic weapon. Is this intended?

[KrispyXIV]

Mark Seifter wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Can I use "nested" Tandem actions?

As in, can I use Act Together, choose Tandem Move for my action (allowing both myself and my Eidolon to Stride), and then my Eidolon chooses to Strike - all for one action, once per turn?

You can't do that for a different reason. Tandem Move isn't "your" action it's a tandem action. That's why we made the tandem trait in the end, actually, it used to explicitly list Tandem Move and "other actions where both you and your eidolon act" as things you can't do.

But I could use Tandem move to get both myself and my Eidolon into position, and then Act Together to do two separate single actions for myself and my Eidolon.

But the action from Act Together can't be combined with another action for something like casting a two action spell.

Do I have that right?

[SuperBidi]

Errata:

"For instance, if you and your eidolon are caught in an
area effect that would heal or damage you both, only the
greater amount of healing or damage applies."

Remember that you can be healed by an effect that damages your Eidolon (or vice versa). For example, if you are under undeath's blessing. I tell you here because I think it can be easily missed.

[Samir Sardinha]

Im just sad that now you cant build your Eidolon anymore.
It's like you have one size fits all instead of the great versatility from the first edition.
-------------
Why Eidolons have fewer customize options then animal companions/Familiar?
-------------
The spellcasting is odd, they "lose" the old spells as they get stronger unlike every other caster!
-------------
Would you consider Constitution as a primary stat over charisma since its literally your life force?
-------------
I was hoping that we can get "summoners racket/edge/doctrine/etc" that mimic old options like Synthesis, Broodmother, etc...
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The "a typical damage type listed in parentheses, but you can work with your GM to choose a damage type that’s right for your eidolon." is just terrible for Society games since you cant make something like that and you are forever bind to these damage types, again, less options then animal companions.
-------------
Since you share your MAP with you Eidolon, its even worst to use a summon spell and you cant expect to use damage spells since you only have 4 slots (and yes cantrips but you dont have a good repertoire os save cantrips).
-------------
"you can Invest a single magic weapon to share the benefits of those runes from the weapon as well, even though you normally can’t
Invest a magic weapon."

"Your eidolon’s level is equal to yours. They begin as an expert in Fortitude and Will saves and are trained in Reflex saves. In addition, they’re trained in unarmed attacks and unarmored defense. They share your skill proficiencies. Certain class features increase your eidolon’s proficiencies"

Why invest a weapon if your Eidolon is not proficient and there isnt a feat to enable it?

[Mark Seifter]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Can I use "nested" Tandem actions?

As in, can I use Act Together, choose Tandem Move for my action (allowing both myself and my Eidolon to Stride), and then my Eidolon chooses to Strike - all for one action, once per turn?

You can't do that for a different reason. Tandem Move isn't "your" action it's a tandem action. That's why we made the tandem trait in the end, actually, it used to explicitly list Tandem Move and "other actions where both you and your eidolon act" as things you can't do.

But I could use Tandem move to get both myself and my Eidolon into position, and then Act Together to do two separate single actions for myself and my Eidolon.

But the action from Act Together can't be combined with another action for something like casting a two action spell.

Do I have that right?

I think you have it all squared.

[Pronate11]

Pronate11 wrote:

Can a eidolon use non magical items? Their entry says they can't use magical items, but is the problem with the magic of magic items, or the item part? This is mostly for raising a shield, as they aren't proficient with weapons and armors, and have no way of becoming trained in them.

I assume as the only question mark hasn't answered, we won't be getting an official answer until the final product. Makes sense, this is something that needs the teams thoughts on and not just one persons. But the play test is good, so I can't complain to much.

[Rysky]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Im just sad that now you cant build your Eidolon anymore.

That's been the case since Unchained in Pathfinder 1 though, really.

[Justpassingthrough]

So while I really like what I see so far for the summoner, I see both issues and opportunities for the synthesist.

Right now synthesist just seems to be a strictly bad option, it removes pretty much all of your class features, and does not really give any noticeable benefit whatsoever. It is a cool feat, but there really does not seem to be much practical application to it (which is a shame, as being able to turn into or play as a dragon or other creature is extremely cool).

As synthesist is a first level feat, I can understand the severe restriction on it. However the lack of any future feat support for synthesist is something which I was disappointed by, as a synthesist, while not a subclass in and of itself, seems like it could benefit greatly from a feat chain that unlocks more and more abilities.

Specifically, I am thinking of a series of feats that gradually gives you the ability to use your own actions and abilities while merged (and your own ability scores if they are higher than the edilons). You still would not be able to use tandom actions, which would place some balance restrictions on the abilities, and the potentially high feat cost for unlocking all of your abilities would also provide an opportunity cost.

I understand that synthesist was the stuff of gm nightmares in pathfinder 1e, but think the nerfs and lack of feat support may have been overkill. Do you have any plans for expanding on the synthesist, or is that a direction which Paizo is not really going to go in?

P.S the reason why i am asking this is mainly because I love the idea of playing a dragon :)

[graystone]

Do small summoners regain only 2 actions at the start of their turns when riding a medium Eidolon? Seems odd that you'd be forced to make your pony large with HULKING EVOLUTION to ride it when you can ride a normal pony without issue. And if you need to take the feat to ride it without losing an action, do I NEED to make it Large?

Does the Beast Eidolon's Primal Roar take a penalty for not using a language?

[Temperans]

Rysky wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Im just sad that now you cant build your Eidolon anymore.

That's been the case since Unchained in Pathfinder 1 though, really.

Unchained Eidolon had a lot of customization. Unlike now where your Eidolon is just done at level 1.

It went from tons of customization. To a lot of customization. And now customization is basically non existent.

It kind of makes me sad.

[manbearscientist]

There are a few 1-action spells to try to improve Summon spells, but this was a much larger focus of the 1E summoner. Having the Angel category specifically call out that you gain Summon Animal on the divine list makes it look like summoning spells are a vital part of the class, when they are largely just as optional as they'd be on any other caster. Given the limitation on spell slots, perhaps even more.

It seems like the class should have perhaps have a focus spell to cast a summon in their tradition, if they are supposed to be using metamagic to augment summons in cool and unique ways more than once per day.

[KrispyXIV]

Temperans wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Im just sad that now you cant build your Eidolon anymore.

That's been the case since Unchained in Pathfinder 1 though, really.

Unchained Eidolon had a lot of customization. Unlike now where your Eidolon is just done at level 1.

It went from tons of customization. To a lot of customization. And now customization is basically non existent.

It kind of makes me sad.

Other than the explicit capability to describe your eidolon however you like, down to choosing its attack types, personality, etc. With additional customization via feats as you go?

I'm not unhappy with the current solution, as it's mechanically tight enough a GM wouldn't tell me I can't play the class.

Plus I can still make the eidolon I want to, with no issues. That doesn't necessarily involve mechanics.

[graystone]

manbearscientist wrote:

There are a few 1-action spells to try to improve Summon spells, but this was a much larger focus of the 1E summoner. Having the Angel category specifically call out that you gain Summon Animal on the divine list makes it look like summoning spells are a vital part of the class, when they are largely just as optional as they'd be on any other caster. Given the limitation on spell slots, perhaps even more.

It seems like the class should have perhaps have a focus spell to cast a summon in their tradition, if they are supposed to be using metamagic to augment summons in cool and unique ways more than once per day.

I was hoping they'd get a divine font type ability for summoning spells: that'd give them the summoning feel without impacting their slots.

[manbearscientist]

Temperans wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Im just sad that now you cant build your Eidolon anymore.

That's been the case since Unchained in Pathfinder 1 though, really.

Unchained Eidolon had a lot of customization. Unlike now where your Eidolon is just done at level 1.

It went from tons of customization. To a lot of customization. And now customization is basically non existent.

It kind of makes me sad.

First, it's a playtest. By design, it will have less customization.

Second, there are still customization options. There are 16 Eidolon feats, which is essentially a majority of the summoner's options. And some of those feats have subcategories, making the potential combination pool larger.

[Samir Sardinha]

graystone wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

There are a few 1-action spells to try to improve Summon spells, but this was a much larger focus of the 1E summoner. Having the Angel category specifically call out that you gain Summon Animal on the divine list makes it look like summoning spells are a vital part of the class, when they are largely just as optional as they'd be on any other caster. Given the limitation on spell slots, perhaps even more.

It seems like the class should have perhaps have a focus spell to cast a summon in their tradition, if they are supposed to be using metamagic to augment summons in cool and unique ways more than once per day.

I was hoping they'd get a divine font type ability for summoning spells: that'd give them the summoning feel without impacting their slots.

I dont know if you ever played with the first edition of the summoner but let me give you a context of what I was talking about.

In the first edition you can use "evolution points" to buy from a list of effects.
You want 4 arms? You got it!
You want use weapons? You got it!
Skills? Spells? Change the size? Reach? Pull/Push your enemys? More legs? Climb? Magic natural attacks? Energy resistance/immunity? Energy damage?
Just checked my Hero Lab, there is 118 evolutions, 18 eidolon "races".

If you compare to PF2 animal companions there is 22 options with a wider difference.

[KrispyXIV]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

graystone wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

There are a few 1-action spells to try to improve Summon spells, but this was a much larger focus of the 1E summoner. Having the Angel category specifically call out that you gain Summon Animal on the divine list makes it look like summoning spells are a vital part of the class, when they are largely just as optional as they'd be on any other caster. Given the limitation on spell slots, perhaps even more.

It seems like the class should have perhaps have a focus spell to cast a summon in their tradition, if they are supposed to be using metamagic to augment summons in cool and unique ways more than once per day.

I was hoping they'd get a divine font type ability for summoning spells: that'd give them the summoning feel without impacting their slots.

I dont know if you ever played with the first edition of the summoner but let me give you a context of what I was talking about.

In the first edition you can use "evolution points" to buy from a list of effects.
You want 4 arms? You got it!
You want use weapons? You got it!
Skills? Spells? Change the size? Reach? Pull/Push your enemys? More legs? Climb? Magic natural attacks? Energy resistance/immunity? Energy damage?
Just checked my Hero Lab, there is 118 evolutions, 18 eidolon "races".

If you compare to PF2 animal companions there is 22 options with a wider difference.

Uh, so you realize right that you can still have 8 arms in the new system, right? Theres just not an associated mechanical benefit or drawback.

But if you want to describe your eidolons attacks as one set of arms wielding swords and the others daggers? Totes an option.

[graystone]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

graystone wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

There are a few 1-action spells to try to improve Summon spells, but this was a much larger focus of the 1E summoner. Having the Angel category specifically call out that you gain Summon Animal on the divine list makes it look like summoning spells are a vital part of the class, when they are largely just as optional as they'd be on any other caster. Given the limitation on spell slots, perhaps even more.

It seems like the class should have perhaps have a focus spell to cast a summon in their tradition, if they are supposed to be using metamagic to augment summons in cool and unique ways more than once per day.

I was hoping they'd get a divine font type ability for summoning spells: that'd give them the summoning feel without impacting their slots.

I dont know if you ever played with the first edition of the summoner but let me give you a context of what I was talking about.

In the first edition you can use "evolution points" to buy from a list of effects.
You want 4 arms? You got it!
You want use weapons? You got it!
Skills? Spells? Change the size? Reach? Pull/Push your enemys? More legs? Climb? Magic natural attacks? Energy resistance/immunity? Energy damage?
Just checked my Hero Lab, there is 118 evolutions, 18 eidolon "races".

If you compare to PF2 animal companions there is 22 options with a wider difference.

What does this have to do with what I posted?

[Staffan Johansson]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

"you can Invest a single magic weapon to share the benefits of those runes from the weapon as well, even though you normally can’t Invest a magic weapon."

"Your eidolon’s level is equal to yours. They begin as an expert in Fortitude and Will saves and are trained in Reflex saves. In addition, they’re trained in unarmed attacks and unarmored defense. They share your skill proficiencies. Certain class features increase your eidolon’s proficiencies"

Why invest a weapon if your Eidolon is not proficient and there isnt a feat to enable it?

Because if you invest a +2 greater striking keen dagger, the eidolon's attacks will be +2 greater striking keen claws (or whatever it has).

It's a bit unclear whether you can stack property runes from handwraps and a weapon though.

[Samir Sardinha]

manbearscientist wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Im just sad that now you cant build your Eidolon anymore.

That's been the case since Unchained in Pathfinder 1 though, really.

Unchained Eidolon had a lot of customization. Unlike now where your Eidolon is just done at level 1.

It went from tons of customization. To a lot of customization. And now customization is basically non existent.

It kind of makes me sad.

First, it's a playtest. By design, it will have less customization.

Second, there are still customization options. There are 16 Eidolon feats, which is essentially a majority of the summoner's options. And some of those feats have subcategories, making the potential combination pool larger.

You have near 0 customization.

You choose the summon and the type of the damage of primary/secondary strike.

They all have: 16/16/16 so they already start doing less damage then a martial character and less AC too since they cant use armor, bracers of armor is a level 8 item and they dont get more dex.
They dont get more attributes period.
A level 20 eidolon is locked at the same initial stats while an animal companion can get to +8 str/dex for example...

[Samir Sardinha]

graystone wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

graystone wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

There are a few 1-action spells to try to improve Summon spells, but this was a much larger focus of the 1E summoner. Having the Angel category specifically call out that you gain Summon Animal on the divine list makes it look like summoning spells are a vital part of the class, when they are largely just as optional as they'd be on any other caster. Given the limitation on spell slots, perhaps even more.

It seems like the class should have perhaps have a focus spell to cast a summon in their tradition, if they are supposed to be using metamagic to augment summons in cool and unique ways more than once per day.

I was hoping they'd get a divine font type ability for summoning spells: that'd give them the summoning feel without impacting their slots.

I dont know if you ever played with the first edition of the summoner but let me give you a context of what I was talking about.

In the first edition you can use "evolution points" to buy from a list of effects.
You want 4 arms? You got it!
You want use weapons? You got it!
Skills? Spells? Change the size? Reach? Pull/Push your enemys? More legs? Climb? Magic natural attacks? Energy resistance/immunity? Energy damage?
Just checked my Hero Lab, there is 118 evolutions, 18 eidolon "races".

If you compare to PF2 animal companions there is 22 options with a wider difference.

What does this have to do with what I posted?

I quoted the wrong person, my bad!

[KrispyXIV]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Im just sad that now you cant build your Eidolon anymore.

That's been the case since Unchained in Pathfinder 1 though, really.

Unchained Eidolon had a lot of customization. Unlike now where your Eidolon is just done at level 1.

It went from tons of customization. To a lot of customization. And now customization is basically non existent.

It kind of makes me sad.

First, it's a playtest. By design, it will have less customization.

Second, there are still customization options. There are 16 Eidolon feats, which is essentially a majority of the summoner's options. And some of those feats have subcategories, making the potential combination pool larger.

You have near 0 customization.

You choose the summon and the type of the damage of primary/secondary strike.

They all have: 16/16/16 so they already start doing less damage then a martial character and less AC too since they cant use armor, bracers of armor is a level 8 item and they dont get more dex.
They dont get more attributes period.
A level 20 eidolon is locked at the same initial stats while an animal companion can get to +8 str/dex for example...

Read the attribute boost class feature.

[Samir Sardinha]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Uh, so you realize right that you can still have 8 arms in the new system, right? Theres just not an associated mechanical benefit or drawback.

But if you want to describe your eidolons attacks as one set of arms wielding swords and the others daggers? Totes an option.

Really nice! I can have skins for my eidolon! That have 0 interaction with the game, NOICCEEEE!

Looking that way, I can have Eidolon with any class, they are just imaginary friends that don't have any interactions with the rest of the game.

[Deadmanwalking]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Really nice! I can have skins for my eidolon! That have 0 interaction with the game, NOICCEEEE!

Multiple limbs never have any inherent interaction with the game in this edition. Eidolons are not special in this.

[manbearscientist]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

I was hoping they'd get a divine font type ability for summoning spells: that'd give them the summoning feel without impacting their slots.

I dont know if you ever played with the first edition of the summoner but let me give you a context of what I was talking about.

In the first edition you can use "evolution points" to buy from a list of effects.
You want 4 arms? You got it!
You want use weapons? You got it!
Skills? Spells? Change the size? Reach? Pull/Push your enemys? More legs? Climb? Magic natural attacks? Energy resistance/immunity? Energy damage?
Just checked my Hero Lab, there is 118 evolutions, 18 eidolon "races".

If you compare to PF2 animal companions there is 22 options with a wider difference.

For reference, Eidolons in the 1E Playtest had 3 base forms and 46 evolutions. However, more evolution options =/= more customizability. As mentioned above, you have 'infinite' cosmetic customizability with this version, while the latter had limited variants. For instance, here are several options:

Quadruped Form, Bite, Gills, Limbs (x6), Pincers, Pull, Push, Scent, Skilled, Swim, Grab. Say you are making a non-poisonous scorpion. It takes 15 options to get this in 1E's playtest. It takes Beast Eidolon, Sensory Evolution, Amphibious Evolution to have the same creature in 2E. So less can be more.

1E is more focused on customizing functionality. When do you get improved damage, when do you get extra appendages, when do you get ability increases, etc. For the most part, 2E makes these unnecessary. But the other questions, 2E is arguably just as flexible (at least as the playtest; it isn't reasonable to compare this to 9ish years of splat book options).

To go through the above examples:

You want 4 arms? You got it! 2E let's you have 1 arm, 2 arm, 8 arms, 64 arms. Anything you want, from level 1.

You want to use weapons? Have unarmed attacks that look like weapons.

Skills? It shares yours, or you can use Dual Studies.

Spells? Magical evolution.

Pull/Push your enemies? Train in Athletics.

More legs? You got it. It can be a millipede.

Climb? Yep, there's a feat for that.

Magic attacks? Invest in handwraps, or boost Eidolon..

Energy resistance? Armor runes, or reinforce Eidolon.

Energy damage? Weapon runes, or ranged evolution.

[HeshKadesh]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Really nice! I can have skins for my eidolon! That have 0 interaction with the game, NOICCEEEE!

Multiple limbs never have any inherent interaction with the game in this edition. Eidolons are not special in this.

Please can we avoid shutting down discussions with 'just refluff it'?

It is a playtest document, and concerns of one of the playtesters/readers is that the ability to 'build a bear' is massively reduced and homogenized.

One of the issues with 5E is that everything was so homogenized, and straight jacketed from level 1-3, there was no real customization to have or manipulate later, and any discussion involving expanding mechanics was shutdown by the hordes of people clamouring for you to refluff.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm fine with wanting increasing customizability. But extra limbs as extra actions is a really bad paradigm we don't need to bring back, and the specific point I was addressing.

[manbearscientist]

HeshKadesh wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Really nice! I can have skins for my eidolon! That have 0 interaction with the game, NOICCEEEE!

Multiple limbs never have any inherent interaction with the game in this edition. Eidolons are not special in this.

Please can we avoid shutting down discussions with 'just refluff it'?

It is a playtest document, and concerns of one of the playtesters/readers is that the ability to 'build a bear' is massively reduced and homogenized.

One of the issues with 5E is that everything was so homogenized, and straight jacketed from level 1-3, there was no real customization to have or manipulate later, and any discussion involving expanding mechanics was shutdown by the hordes of people clamouring for you to refluff.

That would be a concern, but you actually need to show that you can't 'build a bear'.

Beast Eidolon. Jaws Primary, Claws Secondary. Dual Studies (Athletics), Acute Senses (Scent), Climbing Evolution.

That looks like a bear to me. That has function like a bear to me. That is significantly different from the water scorpion example I had above despite using the same base.

At later levels, I could make the bear a flying, medium sized Intelligent-max spellcaster that can shoot fire out of its mouth for a ranged attack, or a Huge physically dominant melee attacker with tripping attacks. Those are very functionally different to me.

Can you push functionality as far as 1E after 9 years of splatbooks? No. Should you be able to? Hard no. But there clearly are options, and the cosmetics are even more varied than 1E at its end. And yes, that matters to some people.

[Samir Sardinha]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Read the attribute boost class feature.

They should move it to an independent option, every class has this class feature and they all do the same.

But Still, caps on 21 ( +5 ) vs +8 from an animal companion

[KrispyXIV]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Read the attribute boost class feature.

They should move it to an independent option, every class has this class feature and they all do the same.

But Still, caps on 21 ( +5 ) vs +8 from an animal companion

Which is ignoring the fact that the animal companion is proficient in barely anything, and to a lesser degree than the Eidolon.

The Eidolon is much better at literally everything than the Animal Companion.

Comparing just the ability score modifiers isn't particularly useful.

[graystone]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Really nice! I can have skins for my eidolon! That have 0 interaction with the game, NOICCEEEE!

Multiple limbs never have any inherent interaction with the game in this edition. Eidolons are not special in this.

That's not true: It does nothing for actions but it'd still give you free hands and the ability to wield multiple items that need 2 hands. Being able to wield multiple items and keep a free hand is the mechanical benefit of the Juggle feat and that's something 3+ hands can do.

[Deadmanwalking]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Read the attribute boost class feature.

They should move it to an independent option, every class has this class feature and they all do the same.

But Still, caps on 21 ( +5 ) vs +8 from an animal companion

The Animal Companion doesn't benefit from Items. The Eidolon does.

I still think they could get some additional stat boosts, especially at high level (something to equate to an Apex Item seems very much a good idea), but their stats really are pretty much fine.

Customizability is another question entirely.

graystone wrote:

That's not true: It does nothing for actions but it'd still give you free hands and the ability to wield multiple items that need 2 hands. Being able to wield multiple items and keep a free hand is the mechanical benefit of the Juggle feat and that's something 3+ hands can do.

Fair enough. Those are fairly niche interactions past hand three or four, though, and almost entirely irrelevant a lot of the time.

[Ediwir]

HeshKadesh wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Really nice! I can have skins for my eidolon! That have 0 interaction with the game, NOICCEEEE!

Multiple limbs never have any inherent interaction with the game in this edition. Eidolons are not special in this.

Please can we avoid shutting down discussions with 'just refluff it'?

It is a playtest document, and concerns of one of the playtesters/readers is that the ability to 'build a bear' is massively reduced and homogenized.

One of the issues with 5E is that everything was so homogenized, and straight jacketed from level 1-3, there was no real customization to have or manipulate later, and any discussion involving expanding mechanics was shutdown by the hordes of people clamouring for you to refluff.

Agreed, but at the same time,

manbearscientist wrote:

1E is more focused on customizing functionality. When do you get improved damage, when do you get extra appendages, when do you get ability increases, etc. For the most part, 2E makes these unnecessary. But the other questions, 2E is arguably just as flexible (at least as the playtest; it isn't reasonable to compare this to 9ish years of splat book options).

To go through the above examples:

You want 4 arms? You got it! 2E let's you have 1 arm, 2 arm, 8 arms, 64 arms. Anything you want, from level 1.

You want to use weapons? Have unarmed attacks that look like weapons.

Skills? It shares yours, or you can use Dual Studies.

Spells? Magical evolution.

Pull/Push your enemies? Train in Athletics.

More legs? You got it. It can be a millipede.

Climb? Yep, there's a feat for that.

Magic attacks? Invest in handwraps, or boost Eidolon..

Energy resistance? Armor runes, or reinforce Eidolon.

Energy damage? Weapon runes, or ranged evolution.

Tho I'd replace a couple, such as

You want 4 arms? Ok, what benefit would you want that to grant?

More legs? Ok, what benefit would you want that to grant?

It's easy to say "I could do that in the previous edition", but really, "having more legs" meant nothing. "Having a bonus to resist trip attempts" was the actual benefit, and it's hella niche. "Having more hands" meant having more attacks, but we don't do that here because it's a mess to balance, so perhaps you might want to alter the attack traits or grant a special action "twin takedown" style.

Let's use our words, and let's put this in a form that actually fits 2e. A bunch of hands won't do an eidolon much good, but neither will a coat of paint.

[Samir Sardinha]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm fine with wanting increasing customizability. But extra limbs as extra actions is a really bad paradigm we don't need to bring back, and the specific point I was addressing.

Im not asking for extra actions.

Maybe you can have different attack types, extra speed, unique features

For example:
Pounce
Require: Beast 4+ limbs
Free action if your next action is BEAST’S CHARGE you can make a secondary attack and the same benefits from double slice.

[Rysky]

… you say you're not asking for extra actions and then explicitly suggest granting them extra actions

[KrispyXIV]

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm fine with wanting increasing customizability. But extra limbs as extra actions is a really bad paradigm we don't need to bring back, and the specific point I was addressing.

Im not asking for extra actions.

Maybe you can have different attack types, extra speed, unique features

For example:
Pounce
Require: Beast 4+ limbs
Free action if your next action is BEAST’S CHARGE you can make a secondary attack and the same benefits from double slice.

One of the biggest complaints in 1E about eidolons was them stealing the show from martial characters.

2E gave Eidolons Martial-Math, so the lack or things like combat feats, weapon abilities and crit specializations are very clearly missing to help differentiate them from Martial classes.

It may be bad form to give eidolons abilities that duplicate or resemble signature features of other classes.

[Deadmanwalking]

I'm not at all sure how curating the number of limbs an Eidolon has is good, or fun, or useful in any way.

I'm fine with action economy enhancers or other customizable things (at least in theory), but having them tied to stuff like number of limbs inevitably penalizes concepts that have a different number of those, and that's bad and leads to badness.

If we're to increase mechanical customizability (and I think that's a worthy goal), I strongly feel those mechanical options should not come with any precise or specific morphology or other physical change, as that restricts thematic customizability.

[Temperans]

manbearscientist wrote:

For reference, Eidolons in the 1E Playtest had 3 base forms and 46 evolutions. However, more evolution options =/= more customizability. As mentioned above, you have 'infinite' cosmetic customizability with this version, while the latter had limited variants. For instance, here are several options:

Quadruped Form, Bite, Gills, Limbs (x6), Pincers, Pull, Push, Scent, Skilled, Swim, Grab. Say you are making a non-poisonous scorpion. It takes 15 options to get this in 1E's playtest. It takes Beast Eidolon, Sensory Evolution, Amphibious Evolution to have the same creature in 2E. So less can be more.

1E is more focused on customizing functionality. When do you get improved damage, when do you get extra appendages, when do you get ability increases, etc. For the most part, 2E makes these unnecessary. But the other questions, 2E is arguably just as flexible (at least as the playtest; it isn't reasonable to compare this to 9ish years of splat book options).

You are speaking as it it takes a ton of evolution points to get a PF1 Eidolon to do anything.

You mentioned the Beast Eidolon with Amphibious and Sensory Evolution. That requires a level 4 Summoner taking 2 feats.

A PF1 Chained Eidolon can have by level 4:

Base form Quadruped. Free evolutions: Bite, Legs (2). Regular Evolutions: Gill, Arms, Swim, Scent, Pincer, Tail, Stinger. That costs 1 Summoner feat for Extra Evolution, and the Eidolon has 4 attacks.

Take the Biped form and you can get the same things without getting the Bite, but also not spending a feat.

So PF2 summoner spends 2 feats to get a few senses. Neither the PF1 summoner or eidolon spent any feats getting to your example.

********************

Also you talked about "years of splat books" Most of the evolutions for Chained Eidolon came from the Advanced Player's Guide and Ultimate Magic.

I dont consider 2 of the most useful books "years of splatbooks".

[graystone]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Fair enough. Those are fairly niche interactions past hand three or four, though, and almost entirely irrelevant a lot of the time.

Not so niche IMO: they "They share your skill proficiencies" so it could be holding multiple toools/kit thereby avoiding actions to draw them all while having reach weapon, a shield and a ranged weapon along with a free hand...

Healer's tools = 2 hands
Thieves tools = 2 hands
Shield = 1 hand
whip = 1 hands
Shortbow = 1 hand*
Free hand = 1 hand
Total hands = 8 hands

So it has reach, ranged attacks, can raise shield, and gets to use it's tools quicker: even if we take into account bandoleers, this gives them hands to use them without dropping/sheathing things and having to draw items later. Now we can quibble over had much of big of an affect it'd have but the interactions are fairly common ones, especially as the Eidolon doesn't have feats that improve action economy like Quick Draw. Something like an Administer First Aid check it needs to stride for takes an extra turn to do otherwise without 2 free hands.

* make that shortbow a bolas: Ranged Trip with the Athletics skill for flying creatures.

[HeshKadesh]

manbearscientist wrote:

HeshKadesh wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Really nice! I can have skins for my eidolon! That have 0 interaction with the game, NOICCEEEE!

Multiple limbs never have any inherent interaction with the game in this edition. Eidolons are not special in this.

Please can we avoid shutting down discussions with 'just refluff it'?

It is a playtest document, and concerns of one of the playtesters/readers is that the ability to 'build a bear' is massively reduced and homogenized.

One of the issues with 5E is that everything was so homogenized, and straight jacketed from level 1-3, there was no real customization to have or manipulate later, and any discussion involving expanding mechanics was shutdown by the hordes of people clamouring for you to refluff.

That would be a concern, but you actually need to show that you can't 'build a bear'.

Beast Eidolon. Jaws Primary, Claws Secondary. Dual Studies (Athletics), Acute Senses (Scent), Climbing Evolution.

That looks like a bear to me. That has function like a bear to me. That is significantly different from the water scorpion example I had above despite using the same base.

At later levels, I could make the bear a flying, medium sized Intelligent-max spellcaster that can shoot fire out of its mouth for a ranged attack, or a Huge physically dominant melee attacker with tripping attacks. Those are very functionally different to me.

Can you push functionality as far as 1E after 9 years of splatbooks? No. Should you be able to? Hard no. But there clearly are options, and the cosmetics are even more varied than 1E at its end. And yes, that matters to some people.

Equally that 'bear' can be a treant, t-rex, mimic, and apart from the mini/token/description, and have no discernable difference outside of that.

Say if one want to create a Final Fantasy Summon Bahamut, I can do. I can do it in a number of ways to represent those abilities. But I can equally just slap a name on it, and call it Mewtwo, or a YugGiOh or a Beyblade or something, and is functionally no different.

No-one is even hyperbolically suggesting that a decade of splat material be rewritten and integrated into the base class: it is in bad faith to essentially strawman that.

There is a midpoint between here, where we currently have this Stat blob represents a Giant Centipede, Treant, Wolf, Earth Elemental, and a Mammoth, and having individual entries for every possible permutation. At the moment, there is the former, and the idea is to move further right along the scale of permutations to have more representative Stat blocks.

I am grateful to have the differentiation between Beast, Dragon, Angel and Phantom already, but would appreciate more 'worky bits' that at least would give some illusion of choice and customization, and 'feeelgood' that comes from your characters abilities actually synergising more than "oh i've got flying fire-breathing bear - or maybe dragon".

[KrispyXIV]

Temperans, perhaps the original Summoner isn't the best thing to compare to - while not all tables are the same, i never met one that allowed for the Summoner as originally published in 1E in any capacity. It was that loathed - partially due to its unrestricted customizability allowing for it to be "gamed" like nothing else.

You're correct, a 1e summoner could do all those things. That was considered a problem by many players.

[Temperans]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'm not at all sure how curating the number of limbs an Eidolon has is good, or fun, or useful in any way.

I'm fine with action economy enhancers or other customizable things (at least in theory), but having them tied to stuff like number of limbs inevitably penalizes concepts that have a different number of those, and that's bad and leads to badness.

If we're to increase mechanical customizability (and I think that's a worthy goal), I strongly feel those mechanical options should not come with any precise or specific morphology or other physical change, as that restricts thematic customizability.

If we remove the limb evolutions (I estimate that is about half of them) we would still have a lot of customizations that the PF2 version lacks:

Energy attacks, magic, see in darkness, shadow form, celestial/fiendish/undead appearance, magical flight and other mobility options, special effects when they hit with an attack, alignment attacks, auras of various kinds, improved attributes and stats, fast healing, high level magical abilities, etc. That doesnt even include the weird evolutions from Unchained.

[Samir Sardinha]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

Read the attribute boost class feature.

They should move it to an independent option, every class has this class feature and they all do the same.

But Still, caps on 21 ( +5 ) vs +8 from an animal companion

Which is ignoring the fact that the animal companion is proficient in barely anything, and to a lesser degree than the Eidolon.

The Eidolon is much better at literally everything than the Animal Companion.

Comparing just the ability score modifiers isn't particularly useful.

They can be master at unarmored defense/skills

They have hit points!
They can get debuffs and dont hurt you character.
If they fail at basic reflex area effect and you get a crit success you are not hit.
They can Fly from first level while a Eidolon needs a level 16 feat.

Edit: Removed attack from the "master" list