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If necessary, it'd probably mean we lose out on a whole bunch of brand new spells and magic items.
While I'm always happy to get "brand new spells and magic items", I'd rather see the classes rounded out if they need it. I have a feeling we'll see plenty them in a Secrets of Magic book even if a few pages don't make it. ;)
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So just to make sure I understand. The whole of Summoner needs to fit in something like 10-13 pages if it follows the same as other classes?
Nope, we have a little more extra space for it than that. But the one in the playtest is already almost 13 pages long (I'm not counting the focus spells because they go in the spells section).
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So just to make sure I understand. The whole of Summoner needs to fit in something like 10-13 pages if it follows the same as other classes?Nope, we have a little more extra space for it than that. But the one in the playtest is already almost 13 pages long (I'm not counting the focus spells because they go in the spells section).
Oof. I suppose by its nature though, Summoner is an expansive class if for no other reason than it covers a lot of thematic and mechanical ground.
While I'd hate to miss out on spells or magic items, I personally think it'd be worth it if we got a more satisfying Summoner with a range of good options.
But I'm biased, as evidenced by my participation in this board :)
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I'm confused why one would want to add disarm, trip or shove to unarmed attacks. Couldn't the eidolon take those skill actions regardless? Is it just to get the potency bonus from the summoner's handwraps/invested weapon?
I really like the idea of a summoner with an oracle dedication. An individual that has made a bond with this extra planar entity is suddenly exposed to extra planar forces surging through their body. Both oracle and sorcerer are dedications I'm really excited to slap onto summoner as far as character story progression is concerned. It sounds really cool.
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Mark may I ask why Trample is no good for the Eidolon?
what part is it that makes it too strong? Since a lesser version might work.
I wasn't especially trying to say that it was off limits in my breakdown, just that giving the PF2 ability called "trample" (automatically move a bunch in any direction through foes and smack everything you pass through with a basic Reflex save against your Strike damage) is relatively different than the trample evolution from PF1 (which is in a straight line and does significantly low damage while giving additional AoOs beyond those from the movement, or a Reflex save, foe's choice).
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Honestly, while i doubt it's on the table, i could stand to see a lot of new magic items and/or spells in a later book if it helped the classes feel good right from the start to get the page-space they might need.
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Once again, a disclaimer. Been playing P1E and summoners for a very long time, been GMing for a very long time. I am still not too deep in P2e, and it will take years for me to develop the same level of system mastery I have with P1e... but to me this is how I'd try and settle some aspects I dislike and some that are generally disliked, and trying to meet some people half-way.
1) Introduce a focus for the summoner as a class. I really think summoners need a focus that definds what kind of summoner they are, gives them a more tangible role and more tropes to fill. Let's call it Conduit Focus. The three I think could work:
a) Eidolon Caller - default choice. You focus on strengthening the bond between you and the outworldly eidolon. These guys get the most out of an eidolon, and have the most unique eidolons.
- At level 1 Gets Act Together action. No one else gets Act Together, maybe with a higher level Class Feat.
- Introduce "Eidolon" feats (more on the later). Eidolon callers shyck - he get more of them, that's it. There are similar precedents for this and few classes get more than 1 feat per level.
b) Master Summoner - being great at summoning monsters in general. You focus on the conjuring and bringing forth beasts from different planes of existence, bolstering them with your personal connection to them.
Addresses the point everyone forgot, summoners can actually summon and should be at least as good if not better at summoning that other casters, this is an option for those who want to focus on summoning!
- diminished eidolon, largely because it doesn't get the benefits of things the Eidolon Caller gets, but with a revamped evolution system can still fill specific niches. That and introduce the higher level ability, similar to how druids can take multiple orders, to get some of the eidolon edge back with Class Feats, or by taking Class Feats that give Eidolon Feats.
- Conduit cantrips/spells that boost your eidolon can target summoned monsters instead. Alternatively - they get a spell slots that they can fill only with summon spells of their tradition.
- Gain focus pool with a focus spell that mimics any of the conjuration summoning spells available to your tradition, but is a 2 action spell. Otherwise with the limited spell list - hard to imagine summoning anything but the eidolon. Can add feats that expand on the summons and augment them, similarly how druids have an options to bolster their wild shapes.
c) Synthesist - for your front-liner "I am the monster" approach. You allow a specific outsider to fuse with your body, taking on traits of both. Can go ghost-rider here, can go iron-man or venom vibes, this will be super fun if made as a separate focus.
- Diminished eidolon, as above.
- Synthesys manifestation action. Should work similar to how it works now but with less limitations, since this is our focus.
- Your Conduit cantrips/spells that boost your eidolon now target you, and maybe, work a bit longer, since we fill a different role now and don't have a back-up dude to boost us every round.
- Synthesysts, however should, in my mind, have an easier time of modifying the eidolon's form...
2) Eidolon. I do think that with the nature of P2e - we should prepackage eidolons, but more like it was done with the Unchained Summoner back in the day. You pick your kind of eidolon, having an overall vector and theme for your outsider dude is good. Good for the master summoner for whom this changes what summons he can cast, good for the synthesyst "I am the monster" shtick, good for Eidolon Caller.
Now, the eidolon by itself should be, like the fighter or rogue or barbarian, be a self-sufficient unit when it comes to its role in combat. That way we negate the P1e pitfall of how easy it was to optimize your eidolon for combat. The game should do it for you. Just liek it does for just about every other chassis.
Pre packaging can stay thematic and open tangible vectors for cool evolutions and eidolon feats.
3) Eidolon Feats. Summones can spend summoner feats on eidolon feats. Can be taken by ANY summoner focus but they apply differently, obviously. You get 1 eidolon feat on 1st level to add some spice to your eidolon. Eidolon callers get 1 extra at level 1, and one every few levels after that.
Eidolon feats are there to give options, to vector HOW your eidolon fights and what abilities it gets. They are there to make the action economy flow better for your specific approach, they are there to add more in and out of combat options, give eidolons access to dedications, some fighter moves, maybe even skill feats, limited casting, more mobility options, change up some dichotomies if we are feeling daring. They could key off of eidolon tradition even... I will ponder this more.
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Once again, a disclaimer. Been playing P1E and summoners for a very long time, been GMing for a very long time. I am still not too deep in P2e, and it will take years for me to develop the same level of system mastery I have with P1e... but to me this is how I'd try and settle some aspects I dislike and some that are generally disliked, and trying to meet some people half-way.
1) Introduce a focus for the summoner as a class. I really think summoners need a focus that definds what kind of summoner they are, gives them a more tangible role and more tropes to fill. Let's call it Conduit Focus. The three I think could work:
a) Eidolon Caller - default choice. You focus on strengthening the bond between you and the outworldly eidolon. These guys get the most out of an eidolon, and have the most unique eidolons.
- At level 1 Gets Act Together action. No one else gets Act Together, maybe with a higher level Class Feat.
- Introduce "Eidolon" feats (more on the later). Eidolon callers shyck - he get more of them, that's it. There are similar precedents for this and few classes get more than 1 feat per level.b) Master Summoner - being great at summoning monsters in general. You focus on the conjuring and bringing forth beasts from different planes of existence, bolstering them with your personal connection to them.
Addresses the point everyone forgot, summoners can actually summon and should be at least as good if not better at summoning that other casters, this is an option for those who want to focus on summoning!
- diminished eidolon, largely because it doesn't get the benefits of things the Eidolon Caller gets, but with a revamped evolution system can still fill specific niches. That and introduce the higher level ability, similar to how druids can take multiple orders, to get some of the eidolon edge back with Class Feats, or by taking Class Feats that give Eidolon Feats.
- Conduit cantrips/spells that boost your eidolon can target summoned monsters instead. Alternatively - they get a spell...
I agree with most of this except Synth getting an inferior or diminished power compared to the Eidolon Caller.
You give up so much action economy, spellcasting, and versatility to go Synth, i think if any Eidolon should have the highest "power" it should be the Synth; there has to be a more equal exchange for what you give up and i believe the Eidolon becoming more bolstered is where that is found.
How about synth Boost of +2 applies not only to damage, but also attack and AC? It's also positively feeds back on the concept of gaining a summoner focus. You can introduce summoner feats just for synths, that give them access, albeit a few levels later than most, of, say, some fighter or barbarian class feats. Later even pump the synth side to 11, add some wacky synth abilities, go Prototype and change your form on the go, to an extent with some powers.
Synth has to be one of the most fun option, and should also be dome justice to be a viable option. In X ears when there's an inevitable eidolon option, grab synth focus, become a mechanical iron-man like warrior, or, something I wanted to do in P1e, a pirate who calls forth the soul of his formal captain to inhabit his body, becoming becoming a walking ghost captain. This is rad as hell. This should work. This should have a focus.
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How about synth Boost of +2 applies not only to damage, but also attack and AC? It's also positively feeds back on the concept of gaining a ssummoner focus. You can introduce summoner feats jsut for synths, that give them access, albeit a few levels later than most, of, say, some fighter or barbarian class feats. Later even pupm the synth side to 11, add some whacky synth abilities, go Prototype and change your form on the go, to an extet with some powers.
Sunth has to be one of the most fun option, and should also be dome justice to be a viable option. In X ears when there's an inevitable eidalon option, grab synth focus, become a mechanical iron-man like warrior, or, something I wanted to do in P1e, a pirate who calls forth the soul of his formal captain to inhabit his body, becoming becoming a walking ghost captain. This is rad as hell. This should work. This should have a focus.
+2 to attack and AC would make you as good as a fighter offensively for almost all levels, and +2 to AC would make you better than a champion defensively for many.
Thats way way too much.
+2 to attack and AC would make you as good as a fighter offensively for almost all levels, and +2 to AC would make you better than a champion defensively for many.
Thats way way too much.
But you spend an action and cast a spell to get it, forgoing a possible 3rd attack and some other 3-action combos. Ideally, +1 may also work.
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Synth eidolon would be the one I think should be completely equal to a martial. You give up flexibility in combat to change the class into being a bruiser in combat and a squishy skill monkey outside of combat, as two separate modes (Vigilante is a good comparison point here I think conceptually).
I have to disagree; i understand the comparison for an Animal Companion needing to be less powerful then a dedicated Eidolon, but for Synth the comparison doesn't change to a standard martial.
It now changes to a Wildshape Druid. In both flavor and mechanics, you can find quite some striking comparisons between Synth and WildShape.
Wildshape Druid is on-par with martials while retaining full 10th level spellcasting with Legendary prof.
Let's examine what exactly Wildshape brings to the table at base.
-It can use combat abilities such as Flurry of Blows or AoO
-It is up to par with martials
-It has Temp HP built upon the Druid's base HP
-It takes 2 actions to Wildshape
-It is extremely flexible and versatile thanks to multiple forms
The limitations?
-It only lasts for 10 min at a time
-Wildshape, while technically benefiting from a few different kinds of runes even while polymorphed, it does not benefit from all runes such as the Flaming rune or the striking rune because they would modify the battle forms attacks that you are given.
What happens with a Wildshape druid at higher levels?
-You can take a feat to simply be wildshaped permanently at-will, thereby removing the 10 minute at a time limitation.
As it stands in the playtest, Synth can't do any of these things.
It'd be absolutely crazy to me as well to suggest that Synth should be a feat chain in order to gain access to what the Wildshape Druid can do, such as needing to pay a feat just to be able to use combat abilities.
Investing feats just so Synth can maybe get to a point where it can rival the Druid's battleforms as a martial, to say the Synth needs that level of investment just to be **equal** while ignoring the absolute power the Druid still retains with full 10th level spellcasting at Legendary prof. as a prepared caster out of the battle form, would be such a negligent thing to believe.
I'm not saying you have said anything like that :), but i just wanted to share where i am at with my view of Synthesist and what i believe it needs to shine on it's own in this thread.
It's why i believe Synth needs the stronger Eidolon, the Eidolon that's bolstered and has more in exchange for what you currently give up as a Summoner.
Fusion should never be lesser.
NOTE: I am not suggesting we give Summoners or Synthesists full 10th level casting, i am suggesting the opposite for Synthesists' case; double down and commit to the focus of being a melee or ranged combatant.
On a synthesis summoner, I think the appeal is have monstrous abilities, not monstrous stats. Or on the blending between summoner and monster.
Quick question on this - is the monstrous abilities thing even contentious at this point? Everyone wants them, and Mark has said they're not outside the target power level.
I'm not saying not to bring them up, but I dont know that we need to phrase it argumentatively.
I'm not sure anyone doesn't want monstrous abilitiss.
On resistances from level 1:
The problem here is that for the Eidolon use its 'cool thing', the GM needs to break the encounter building in ways that can be very lethal or dissatisfying at low levels.
Option 1. Offset resistance by addign a weakness.
Option 2. Common elemental resistances aren't overpowered because there are common. In havign 5 resistance to fire may negate some lower level specific encounters, but have zero impact on many other. It's not like AC that has an important role in every combat.
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Frankly, I like the idea of almost everything, what I don't necessary like is some of the execution. So far I've played in a few random encounters with the Summoner. Will be doing more over the weekend as well. Here are my thoughts so far.
Love:
1) Shared HP pool - really brings home that we are a true companion and equal to our Eidolon
2) Shared action economy - same as above
3) Eidolon type determining spell tradition
4) That Spiritualist is baked into the Summoner
Like:
1) The customizable weapon options for the Eidolon
2) That all the Eidolons feel unique (wouldn't mind something more here, but base is good)
3) Limited casting for Summoner
Would like to see changed:
1) More summoning support for the Summoner - using the limited slots for summoning spells just feels bad
2) Act Together to allow the action to be used as part of an activity (such as a multi-action spell)
3) Better martial capabilities for the Eidolon
A) Eidolon AC is just bad at early levels
B) While damage isn't exactly horrible at first glance, given that they cannot use any feats to make it better means they are very far behind other martials
4) CHA feels very lackluster as a primary stat. With so few spell slots and the Spell Proficiency lacking for half the summoner's career, I can't see investing in too many attack/save spells, but instead use them for support and buffing. As such, there is very little benefit of CHA pumping. I'd like to see either:
A) Make CON the primary ability - it makes sense with all the "life force" language used
B) Give me some more incentive/benefit to pumping CHA
5) Boost Eidolon feels like an action tax as it is now. Other classes can do much the same thing with either 1 action for the whole combat, or no spent actions. Having to use Boost Eidolon every round unnecessarily restricts the Summoner big time and feels horrible.
There are my two cents so far after playing a couple of battle scenarios. This weekend I'm playing in a full 5 hour session with the Summoner, so hopefully will have more thoughts then.
If Mark comes back around around (or if anyone else thinks they can answer this), I have two questions. Let's say, for the sake of argument, you are currently synthed. Your ally goes down in battle and is dying. You run up to them, and want to Administer First Aid. You were wearing a bandolier with healer's tools. The requirements for Administer First Aid say "You have healer's tools". But while synthed, can you actually use those tools?
And this is reaching even more into hypothetical land, but let's say that somehow, you had access to Battle Medicine while synthed. Battle Medicine's requirement is "You are holding or wearing healer's tools." Same question: If you had healer's tools in a bandolier before synthing, could you actually still access those tools?
Can we choose a different example?
Battle Medicine discussions kindof make me want to hiss and recoil like a Vampire from sunlight.
I personally would presume that as much as possible, your gear fits your new form as appropriately as possible.
Maybe not accessible on your beast form (unless its humanoid), but probably on a humanoid angel.
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...Synth eidolon would be the one I think should be completely equal to a martial. You give up flexibility in combat to change the class into being a bruiser in combat and a squishy skill monkey outside of combat, as two separate modes (Vigilante is a good comparison point here I think conceptually).
I have to disagree; i understand the comparison for an Animal Companion needing to be less powerful then a dedicated Eidolon, but for Synth the comparison doesn't change to a standard martial.
It now changes to a Wildshape Druid. In both flavor and mechanics, you can find quite some striking comparisons between Synth and WildShape.
Wildshape Druid is on-par with martials while retaining full 10th level spellcasting with Legendary prof.
Let's examine what exactly Wildshape brings to the table at base.
-It can use combat abilities such as Flurry of Blows or AoO
-It is up to par with martials
-It has Temp HP built upon the Druid's base HP
-It takes 2 actions to Wildshape
-It is extremely flexible and versatile thanks to multiple formsThe limitations?
-It only lasts for 10 min at a time
-Wildshape, while technically benefiting from a few different kinds of runes even while polymorphed, it does not benefit from all runes such as the Flaming rune or the striking rune because they would modify the battle forms attacks that you are given.What happens with a Wildshape druid at higher levels?
-You can take a feat to simply be wildshaped permanently at-will, thereby removing the 10 minute at a time limitation.As it stands in the playtest, Synth can't do any of these things.
It'd be absolutely crazy to me as well to suggest that Synth should be a feat chain in order to gain access to what the Wildshape Druid can do, such as needing to pay a feat just to be able to use combat abilities.
Investing feats just so Synth can maybe get to a point where it can rival the Druid's battleforms as a martial, to say the
I'm not saying it needs to last 10 min like Druid's wildshape but simply stating the limitations Wildshape has early on before Druids get access to permanent wildshape that lasts all day.; i'm not saying Synthesist should be like Druid's Wildshape, i'm saying it needs to be better than Druid's Wildshape.
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I'd also remove their ability to have the same skills as us. Let us choose to give them 2 skills and lower our skills by 2... or something. I'm not a fan of the idea that we get advantage on all skills. That makes it seem like we are better at skills than rogues and investigators.
Uh, yeah, maybe don't try to undermine the advantages the class already has in an attempt to build up aspects that you, personally, want.
Its fine for the class to be good at skills. Thats something that appeals to a lot of players, and is a critical part of representing many creature concepts.
Linking the skills to the Summoner also creates an implicit (and MECHANICAL!) relationship between the Eidolon and the Summoner, as they're both somewhat good at the same sorts of things.
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Been thinking and TBH I'd even be comfortable with the Eidolon being either on par with any other martial or even being slightly better.
I'd like a class where the summon (or Eidolon in this case) actually FEELS strong. And when you do synthesis, synthesis actually makes you weaker to be in line with all other martials, since you're now trading out the weak summoners body, it should lower the Eidolons overall power a bit.
So you want these things over a Synth:
-a stronger Eidolon
-extra action economy
-versatility
-spellcasting
I've got to disagree there friend, the Synth has almost nothing over the regular Summoner then.
"But there's one less body on the field"
Let's ignore the fact that's not worth even a single one of the listed pros above for a second.
If that's what you think Synthesist Summoner is, simply a utility tool to reduce battlefield presence, I can understand where you're coming from.
However,
People want to actually play a Synthesist Summoner; the playstyle they are craving is that akin to 1e whereby you are fusing with an Eidolon in order to perform better than either of you could've individually. You're exchanging the action economy, the spellcasting, the versatility, committing to only manifesting as a Synth, so you can bolster yourself as a fused Eidolon. Such a sacrifice and commitment should yield greater rewards, not lesser.
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I'd also remove their ability to have the same skills as us. Let us choose to give them 2 skills and lower our skills by 2... or something. I'm not a fan of the idea that we get advantage on all skills. That makes it seem like we are better at skills than rogues and investigators.Uh, yeah, maybe don't try to undermine the advantages the class already has in an attempt to build up aspects that you, personally, want.
Its fine for the class to be good at skills. Thats something that appeals to a lot of players, and is a critical part of representing many creature concepts.
Linking the skills to the Summoner also creates an implicit (and MECHANICAL!) relationship between the Eidolon and the Summoner, as they're both somewhat good at the same sorts of things.
Uh, yeah, maybe the summoner shouldn't do a rogue or investigators jobs better than a rogue or investigator. That's a real problem that needs to be addressed. Our schtick should be a powerful ally that we command or work with. Our schtick isn't "skill monkey"
We already have two classes that are skill monkeys which is the investigator and rogue. We don't need summoner to be a skill monkey as well and it destroys class fantasy that the summoner is better at skill monkeying than the investigator, while simultaneously having a weak Eidolon that can't fight that well.
I think you took the wrong message away from discussion on other threads on this particular point.
If i were a cynic, I might think it was because it contradicted the narrative that Summoners don't have anything going for them.
The Summoner is better at some aspects of skill use, and every one of those aspects is tied to, get this, teamwork and having two "bodies".
They can aid each other, use the better stat if appropriate (limited by skill feat access), try certain skills twice because theyre technically two creatures, etc.
They are in no way threatening rogues or Investigators, because their mastery of skills is different - it hinges on more proficiencies and more skill feats.
Its exactly the perfect sort of balance item. A Summoner is good at skills, because of the teamwork between themselves and their Eidolon.
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I'd also remove their ability to have the same skills as us. Let us choose to give them 2 skills and lower our skills by 2... or something. I'm not a fan of the idea that we get advantage on all skills. That makes it seem like we are better at skills than rogues and investigators.
It's not really advantage as you have to add in stats and eidolon has stat bonuses from -1 to +1 for mental stats.
Its fine for the class to be good at skills.
wouldn't say good as eidolons best skill rolls are ones acrobatics and athletics. I just don't see this as a giant bonus once you take into account stats. Rolling twice is most likely going to result in one with good bonuses and one without that or 2 crappy rolls: you're unlikely to get 2 rolls with good bonuses. Aiding the other with the better bonuses is about it for 'good' IMO and that doesn't seem a big deal for taking twice the actions of others doing the skill.
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Take an Eidolon. It's strong, right? Stronger than a martial. But the summoner is its Achilles heal. If you're going to be stronger than a martial, you need a weakness. But if you REMOVE that Achilles heal, you ultimately need to make the combined synthesis/summoner combo to be weaker so that it is more in line with a martial. Otherwise you end up with an OP character.
Having the player character who is defined as "The Weakness" may be fewer players character/class fantasy than you seem to think.
Besides, even if that's true you can't have the Eidolon be stronger than Martial characters - its way to easy to protect the Summoner for any party that cares, or with simple tactics. Its not a meaningful weakness if its easily mitigated.
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Besides, even if that's true you can't have the Eidolon be stronger than Martial characters - its way to easy to protect the Summoner for any party that cares, or with simple tactics. Its not a meaningful weakness if its easily mitigated.If the two are sharing HP and the summoner has significantly lower AC than the Eidolon, it is definitely a weak point. You have lower AC, more vulnerable to crits, disadvantage on AOE, etc. The summoner is a liability and imo this is how it should be so we FEEL like we have a STRONG Eidolon rather than just some weak sorry excuse for a monster.
Significantly lower AC and weak to AoEs and... end of extra vulnerabilities?
Everyone acts like Summoners will be standing in the open waiting to die.
How about standing 80 feet back, 3 move actions away from the enemy? Around a corner, outside of line of site? Maybe dont stand side by side when opening doors on the other side of which monsters may dwell?
If you're making it easy for a foe to get to your Summoner, that's on you. Summoners have several ways to contribute from safety as it stands.