Welcome to the Summoner Class Playtest!

[Verzen]

Martialmasters wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

AnimatedPaper wrote:

This thread took a weird turn. If the Eidolon is not treated as an equivalent in power to a PC, then what is the problem with some of them getting flying at level 1 again? If they ARE equivalent, then what is the problem with Eidolons getting more customization?

Right now, people arguing with Verzen are trying to argue both at once (Krispy excepted).

I'll go ahead and post what I think a vaguely balanced point system might look like:

...

Another, unspoken reason thus far to avoid a point system and consider using simple bonus feats for extra customization resources:

Variance.

Remember all those people wanting class paths?

Eidolon Summoner, Synthesist, Master Summoner?

Those are way easier to balance when each is a discreet addition to the base system.

In the above examples, the Eidolon Summoner is bonus Evolution feats, rhe Synthesist is Synthesis and possibly companion abilities to make it Good (or bonus Synthesist feats), and the last is whatever Summoning system they choose to implement.

Its harder to implement those side by side if you've created an elaborate subsystem for Eidolons as your default consideration.

Taking a page out of 5e eh? That thing you abhor even though you seem to be pushing 2e in it's direction?

Because premade class paths is their thing.

The class paths was my idea when I pitched it here, although several others probably had similar ideas.

I do think Synthesis, Eidolon focused, and summon monster focused allow us to have 3 different, viable niches that allows a lot of the power distribution to create strong, focused, characters rather than unfocused and being bad in all of them.

[KirinKai]

Martialmasters wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

AnimatedPaper wrote:

This thread took a weird turn. If the Eidolon is not treated as an equivalent in power to a PC, then what is the problem with some of them getting flying at level 1 again? If they ARE equivalent, then what is the problem with Eidolons getting more customization?

Right now, people arguing with Verzen are trying to argue both at once (Krispy excepted).

I'll go ahead and post what I think a vaguely balanced point system might look like:

...

Another, unspoken reason thus far to avoid a point system and consider using simple bonus feats for extra customization resources:

Variance.

Remember all those people wanting class paths?

Eidolon Summoner, Synthesist, Master Summoner?

Those are way easier to balance when each is a discreet addition to the base system.

In the above examples, the Eidolon Summoner is bonus Evolution feats, rhe Synthesist is Synthesis and possibly companion abilities to make it Good (or bonus Synthesist feats), and the last is whatever Summoning system they choose to implement.

Its harder to implement those side by side if you've created an elaborate subsystem for Eidolons as your default consideration.

Taking a page out of 5e eh? That thing you abhor even though you seem to be pushing 2e in it's direction?

Because premade class paths is their thing.

I think they mean more in the vein of druid orders or bard muses. Y'know, the thing 2e already has. I think it'd work pretty well, since it'd let people better fill the different niches that they desire from summoner.

[Martialmasters]

Ah that makes more sense then.

Issue is currently those have very varying degrees of impact. So I wonder what they'd do with say, synthesist to get it to function.

It could potentially open up some more interesting multicass ideas though. Suddenly a synthesist summoner with monk MC might be kinda cool.

[Katrixia]

Martialmasters wrote:

Ah that makes more sense then.

Issue is currently those have very varying degrees of impact. So I wonder what they'd do with say, synthesist to get it to function.

It could potentially open up some more interesting multicass ideas though. Suddenly a synthesist summoner with monk MC might be kinda cool.

I think instead of the Eidolon being placed upon you that maybe (at least, mechanically) the Summoner is fused with the Eidolon.

Taking out the text that currently reads something like "Things that would affect the Summoner or what the Summoner can do is prohibited"

I think allowing feats to effect the Synth as a creature from both the Summoner and Eidolon is what would make it work.
(Except maybe spellcasting, but i mean that's up for discussion how strong you really consider that to be as a Synth)

Right now, whether as a Synth or not, i don't think there's any way for an Eidolon to use anything from the martial artist archetype, use attack of opportunity through a multiclass, or benefit from something like Canny Acumen that the Summoner would have because technically that's something the Eidolon does not have.

[Verzen]

-Poison- wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Ah that makes more sense then.

Issue is currently those have very varying degrees of impact. So I wonder what they'd do with say, synthesist to get it to function.

It could potentially open up some more interesting multicass ideas though. Suddenly a synthesist summoner with monk MC might be kinda cool.

I think instead of the Eidolon being placed upon you that maybe (at least, mechanically) the Summoner is fused with the Eidolon.

Taking out the text that currently reads something like "Things that would affect the Summoner or what the Summoner can do is prohibited"

I think allowing feats to effect the Synth as a creature from both the Summoner and Eidolon is what would make it work.
(Except maybe spellcasting, but i mean that's up for discussion how strong you really consider that to be as a Synth)

Right now, whether as a Synth or not, i don't think there's any way for an Eidolon to use anything from the martial artist archetype, use attack of opportunity through a multiclass, or benefit from something like Canny Acumen that the Summoner would have because technically that's something the Eidolon does not have.

I REALLY hope they remove that restriction otherwise what's the point? I want synthesis to be a FUSION of summoner with the Eidolon (like in animes, for example) rather than just replacing the summoner with the Eidolon.

[Katrixia]

Verzen wrote:

rather than just replacing the summoner with the Eidolon.

"Pick up Synthesis to delete the Summoner from the Summoner class"

lmfao great job Paizo

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Another thing to consider is the Synth gaining the benefit from Boost Eidolon and the like, through some way; maybe a feat that auto-applies it for Synths or idk, something.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

I REALLY hope they remove that restriction otherwise what's the point? I want synthesis to be a FUSION of summoner with the Eidolon (like in animes, for example) rather than just replacing the summoner with the Eidolon.

Its an easy concept to describe, but a hard one to balance.

If they fix the stats on Eidolons so their math is appropriate at all levels, a Synthesist with no limitations essentially has a superior Statline to any other Martial Character, plus powerful spellcasting. It becomes a no-brainer choice for anyone wanting to play a magi-fighter, cool monster transformation aside.

That's why there needs to be some limitation that, in general, limits your Synthesized form to its generally monsterish actions.

I dont think there's anyone who doesn't want to see some form of monster-themed attacks added for the Eidolon - these are the sorts of things that should ideally define a Synthesist over other martials, right?

I also think that everyone agrees that for this to be a playable style of character, Synthesis needs something - badly. Its just a matter of what.

If Eidolons get better, Synthesis also gets better. But I personally think it needs some sort of Quality of Life ability that allows it to benefit from the Summoners abilities, but with meaningful limitations.

I personally like the idea of allowing the Summoner to spend an action to "assert control" and temporarily use their own attributes and actions, but others don't. Thats cool, I'm not primarily here for Synthesis.

But I do think some sort of meaningful limitation is needed to avoid the Synthesis theme being a mechanically superior option that gets chosen for its power, and not its theme.

[KrispyXIV]

-Poison- wrote:

Verzen wrote:

rather than just replacing the summoner with the Eidolon.

"Pick up Synthesis to delete the Summoner from the Summoner class"

lmfao great job Paizo

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Another thing to consider is the Synth gaining the benefit from Boost Eidolon and the like, through some way; maybe a feat that auto-applies it for Synths or idk, something.

Allowing the Summoner to continue using AT LEAST conduit spells while Synthesized is more or less where you begin the process of fixing it, imo.

[Verzen]

KrispyXIV wrote:

Verzen wrote:

I REALLY hope they remove that restriction otherwise what's the point? I want synthesis to be a FUSION of summoner with the Eidolon (like in animes, for example) rather than just replacing the summoner with the Eidolon.

Its an easy concept to describe, but a hard one to balance.

If they fix the stats on Eidolons so their math is appropriate at all levels, a Synthesist with no limitations essentially has a superior Statline to any other Martial Character, plus powerful spellcasting. It becomes a no-brainer choice for anyone wanting to play a magi-fighter, cool monster transformation aside.

That's why there needs to be some limitation that, in general, limits your Synthesized form to its generally monsterish actions.

I dont think there's anyone who doesn't want to see some form of monster-themed attacks added for the Eidolon - these are the sorts of things that should ideally define a Synthesist over other martials, right?

I also think that everyone agrees that for this to be a playable style of character, Synthesis needs something - badly. Its just a matter of what.

If Eidolons get better, Synthesis also gets better. But I personally think it needs some sort of Quality of Life ability that allows it to benefit from the Summoners abilities, but with meaningful limitations.

I personally like the idea of allowing the Summoner to spend an action to "assert control" and temporarily use their own attributes and actions, but others don't. Thats cool, I'm not primarily here for Synthesis.

But I do think some sort of meaningful limitation is needed to avoid the Synthesis theme being a mechanically superior option that gets chosen for its power, and not its theme.

Unless synthesis loses spellcasting. There are ways to balance and still get the feel.

[KrispyXIV]

Verzen wrote:

Unless synthesis loses spellcasting. There are ways to balance and still get the feel.

Lacking a near universal embrace by the community, I would be absolutely shocked if any version of the Summoner actually made it to print without spellcasting.

I know they said it was originally on the table, and a lot of people liked the idea in theory, but that's a big change and it isn't something that has continued to come up all over the place.

So yeah, that might be the sort of thing that could serve as a balance - but I'm not betting on it.

Could be wrong though, who knows.

[Katrixia]

KrispyXIV wrote:

But I do think some sort of meaningful limitation is needed to avoid the Synthesis theme being a mechanically superior option that gets chosen for its power, and not its theme.

I think it's fair to limit spellcasting (unless you have the Eidolon spellcasting feats) while Synth'd.

I'm not sure i'd say the Synth would have a superior statline if we just don't include being able to use the Summoner's own mental stats.

I also think limiting it to a sub-class option, not accessible through multi-class, is another way to limit it; that way a Fighter with legendary can't just pick up Synth for a boost in damage, defense, or abilities.

I'm not sure about the Synth using conduit spells; i don't see using "Boost Eidolon" by spending an action as reasonable when the Eidolon is already behind in damage.
Again, you already sacrifice the action economy of the Summoner to go Synth, it'd be a little insulting if i had to cut it even more to still do overall less damage than a regular Eidolon.

[KrispyXIV]

-Poison- wrote:

I'm not sure about the Synth using conduit spells; i don't see using "Boost Eidolon" by spending an action as reasonable when the Eidolon is already behind in damage.
Again, you already sacrifice the action economy of the Summoner to go Synth, it'd be a little insulting if i had to cut it even more to still do overall less damage than a regular Eidolon.

When I see this in my head/suggesting it, I'm seeing the Summoner using act Together to Boost Eidolon (or Reinforce) without affecting the Eidolons potential 3 actions per turn.

Same action economy as a vanilla summoner, but the 4th action is limited to conduit spells and mental-only actions.

[Katrixia]

KrispyXIV wrote:

When I see this in my head/suggesting it, I'm seeing the Summoner using act Together to Boost Eidolon (or Reinforce) without affecting the Eidolons potential 3 actions per turn.

Same action economy as a vanilla summoner, but the 4th action is limited to conduit spells and mental-only actions.

Oh you know what, that could work.

[Martialmasters]

Give it the Magus treatment.

You have summoner, that has some kind of benefit to summoning

The eidolon bro, Wich is similar to now

And the synthesist. Wich can be something similar to druid animal form. Where you can't cast spells while transformed but you get some kind of boost to your combat ability. Further restrictions could be even losing the ability to summon the eidolon seperate from yourself or it's more limited when you do than other summoner's.

Just spitball ideas, rough.

[Verzen]

An alt idea - synthesis is 100% restricted to a dedication.

The dedication changes your stats to an Eidolon array, provides you any evolutions or abilities Eidolons have. You keep the main fighter/ranger/monk chassis.

[Verzen]

The benefits of this - you truly are a martial. You get evolution feats at half you level, so not as good evolution feats as regular Eidolons...

[Sagiam]

Verzen wrote:

An alt idea - synthesis is 100% restricted to a dedication.

The dedication changes your stats to an Eidolon array, provides you any evolutions or abilities Eidolons have. You keep the main fighter/ranger/monk chassis.

I think this could work, but alot of questions would have to be answered. Is it a polymorph effect? If it is, can you still cast spells, focus or otherwise? What are your stats and do you recieve stat boosts every five levels? What are your hit points? Etc.

While I don't mind the idea, making it a dedication and opening it up for everyone would be like building another class (in terms of design consideration, if not in page space.) And with no time to run it through a playtest.

Edit: Certain evolutions would have to be carefully looked at as well. I think that swim speed and climb speed would both need to be dropped 2 levels from where they are. (I think they need to be dropped 2 levels anyways.)

[Gaulin]

I've said in another thread and I know it's annoying to see things repeated in multiple threads, but I'm going to say it anyway. I'd be fine if synthesis allowed you to use your own combat abilities, the eidolons combat abilities, and use the eidolons stats, with no casting (with the exception of casting the eidolon can do through feats, etc.). This would make archetypes a lot more viable for the summoner to take, while still being not quite up to par with other martials who will likely have better combat feats and class features that give them an edge, which is a good thing.

[Paul Watson]

Last minute suggestion for adding customisability to the Eidolon, specifically the stats.

Instead of the current fixed array for all eidolons, which has been pointed out as one of the features that makes eidolons feel similar, treat them more as a secondary PC for building their abilities.
Each Eidolon type gains 2 bonuses, a penalty and a floating bonus, as a race (e.g. Beast would gain +Str/Wis, -Int). They gain a “class” bonus to Str or Dex. Finally, they gain the standard 4 floating +2s that they gain every 5 levels. This would enable a little more customisation and make the eidolon feel more unique, although I suspect a lot of eidolons will end up looking similar statwise owing to playing the same party role.

[Verzen]

Paul Watson wrote:

Last minute suggestion for adding customisability to the Eidolon, specifically the stats.

Instead of the current fixed array for all eidolons, which has been pointed out as one of the features that makes eidolons feel similar, treat them more as a secondary PC for building their abilities.
Each Eidolon type gains 2 bonuses, a penalty and a floating bonus, as a race (e.g. Beast would gain +Str/Wis, -Int). They gain a “class” bonus to Str or Dex. Finally, they gain the standard 4 floating +2s that they gain every 5 levels. This would enable a little more customisation and make the eidolon feel more unique, although I suspect a lot of eidolons will end up looking similar statwise owing to playing the same party role.

That would still only fetch +6. They need a background imo that would go from brawler to tank etc that effects their stats and perhaps gives unique evolutions.

[Paul Watson]

Verzen wrote:

Paul Watson wrote:

Last minute suggestion for adding customisability to the Eidolon, specifically the stats.

Instead of the current fixed array for all eidolons, which has been pointed out as one of the features that makes eidolons feel similar, treat them more as a secondary PC for building their abilities.
Each Eidolon type gains 2 bonuses, a penalty and a floating bonus, as a race (e.g. Beast would gain +Str/Wis, -Int). They gain a “class” bonus to Str or Dex. Finally, they gain the standard 4 floating +2s that they gain every 5 levels. This would enable a little more customisation and make the eidolon feel more unique, although I suspect a lot of eidolons will end up looking similar statwise owing to playing the same party role.

That would still only fetch +6. They need a background imo that would go from brawler to tank etc that effects their stats and perhaps gives unique evolutions.

The current Eidolon stats cap out at 16, with 6 net positive modifiers I assume that’s intentional. This proposal is ever so slightly more generous with a net 7 positive modifiers, but I think the intent is that eidolons not be as potent as full martial PCs.

Of course, this is untested kite flying, so modifications should be considered almost required to balance it properly.

[HumbleGamer]

Paul Watson wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Paul Watson wrote:

Last minute suggestion for adding customisability to the Eidolon, specifically the stats.

Instead of the current fixed array for all eidolons, which has been pointed out as one of the features that makes eidolons feel similar, treat them more as a secondary PC for building their abilities.
Each Eidolon type gains 2 bonuses, a penalty and a floating bonus, as a race (e.g. Beast would gain +Str/Wis, -Int). They gain a “class” bonus to Str or Dex. Finally, they gain the standard 4 floating +2s that they gain every 5 levels. This would enable a little more customisation and make the eidolon feel more unique, although I suspect a lot of eidolons will end up looking similar statwise owing to playing the same party role.

That would still only fetch +6. They need a background imo that would go from brawler to tank etc that effects their stats and perhaps gives unique evolutions.

The current Eidolon stats cap out at 16, with 6 net positive modifiers I assume that’s intentional. This proposal is ever so slightly more generous with a net 7 positive modifiers, but I think the intent is that eidolons not be as potent as full martial PCs.

In my opinion it has to be pair to any other martial class.

It's like the magus:

- 2/2 hybrid class
- Bad progression with spell DC ( master by lvl 19 )
- Unable to choose either to improve its combat stats or casting stats ( tied to char, as the magus is tied to str/dex )

The issue here is that while the magus has the same martial proficiency as any other combatant class, and because so balanced as any other combatant class, the summoner has neither a good combatant bonuses, nor good spellcaster bonuses.

- It's eidolon attack is off. It can't get +36 hit by lvl 20 as well as the same martial progression. Which means it sucks like a warpriest or combat oracle.

- It's spellcasting is off because it has neither the proficiency ( though it unlocks expert spellcasting by lvl 7, which is good ) of a full spellcaster, nor a wide list of spell slots ( so, not only his hit chance / DC sucks, but he also has 4 slots per day, so those spells are not going to be effective, as its melee attacks ).

...

I think that mark has to decide whether if

1) The summoner is meant to hit with its eidolon, and because so its eidolon has to have a martial proficiency as any other martial.

2) The summoner is meant to be a better spellcaster, able to use cantrips and some spells per day ( 4 ) with a good spellcasting DC ( like any other pure spellcaster ), while its eidolon will be less effective ( slightly less than a martial. +1 compared to a warpriest ).

I highly hope that we will see the 1) option, because the summoner is meant to fight with its summoned eidolon, supporting it when needed ( cantrip and spells ). Being -2 compared to a martial might be ok with a different class, but here we have one with no spells, no high ac, no high spellcasting proficieicy, shared hp ( which is tied to the "no high ac" feature, and so on ).

[Sam Phelan]

Removed some posts and their replies. Earlier portions of the thread are still in review.

Please refrain from personal attacks and charged arguments. Trying to delegitimize another poster with a "gotcha" statement, or weaponize your argument or theirs is not a productive way to add your ideas to the discussion. Mocking other participant's ideas because they do not align with your perception of what is best or right is not acceptable. Try not to dichotomize arguments. There's a trend to want to develop two sides and assume any contribution is meant to align with one side or the other, which allows for an unnecessarily confrontational structure. Ultimately, we are all working toward creating a better game, class, and community, so please treat other conversation participants with respect and avoid using terms like "dishonest" to berate individuals. This is a personal attack.