The best I understand is that it basically gave you the physical stats and attacks of your Eidolon, right? If that's the case it'll probably work as polymorph; you gain your Eidolon's proficiencies for melee/weapon attacks, use their AC/HP, but while polymorphed you can't cast spells. It would probably last for like a minute or so as well.
Looking at the way things like enlarge and rage work i imagine it will grant a static boost to damage and perhaps temp HP. And maybe a boost of some kind to AC
Like the polymorph / wild shape mentioned
I doubt proficiency will change. But equally I am not convinced there will be eidolons with higher proficiencies than masters. That doesn’t seem to be how minions work in 2E
Looking at the way things like enlarge and rage work i imagine it will grant a static boost to damage and perhaps temp HP. And maybe a boost of some kind to AC
Like the polymorph / wild shape mentioned
I doubt proficiency will change. But equally I am not convinced there will be eidolons with higher proficiencies than masters. That doesn’t seem to be how minions work in 2E
Allow me to correct myself, I meant how for example Dragon Form gives you a +18 to melee attacks and whatnot in place of your normal attack modifier. I figure if Synthesis Summoner were to be a thing it would do the same, using the Eidolon's modifier in place of your own.
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I think we were angling at the same direction but I may not have articulated it well
Either way I don’t see you being able to leave you physical stats all at 12 or lower and it make no difference because it is permanently overrides by the eidolon
Synthesist was a monstrosity. There was a good Runelords podcast that I was really enjoying until someone wheeled out one of those characters . All physical stats at 10 or lower . Monstrous combat ability including multiple natural attacks all at full BAB (better than a min maxed paladin apart from when smiting and even then really close). Evolution surge to fill any potential weakness on the fly. Was horrible . Nothing in Rise can stand up to that
So like the OP I am rather intrigued how they will do it or if they will even bother. I would guess the pathways are most likely to be what type of eidolon - fey, spirit, outsider etc (perhaps with magic tradition to match )
My best guess is “synthesise” will be a focus spell that acts like already mentioned (dragon form or the like). But not a permanent state of being. And this is not based on my preference even though it would be but more how I see the “sub classes” going
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How do people suppose this will work in Pathfinder 2e? I am excited for a balanced version of synthesis I can actually use in PFS...
It'll be like a battleform spell similar to the druid's wildshape or any of the Form shape shifting spells with longer duration.
It'd probably be a focus spell, and as you level up the duration it last will be longer.
You'll probably be able to have your Eidolon on its own, or merge the two of you together.
You probably wont be able to cast spells while in it (like other battleform spells).
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Also, I have said once and I will say it every time I see it, Eidolon is not a minion. Stop treating is as a minion. Dont treat it as a minion.
The way to do this in the PF2 idiom is make the Eidolon the actual character, and the summoner the "minion", at least in terms of action economy. I can't see two actors with three actions each being balanced in PF2. If the Eidolon gets 3 actions, expect heavy restrictions on the Summoner's turn.
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Honestly I dont see any problem with Synthesist being an almost 1 to 1 copy of PF1. The most broken part of the PF1 version was the multiple natural attacks, and those are gone. So there really isn't a reason to limit it so much.
The only problem is proficiency. Because Eidolon really should be able to get Master in weapons as a potential option. Warrior Eidolons were cool.
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Also, I have said once and I will say it every time I see it, Eidolon is not a minion. Stop treating is as a minion. Dont treat it as a minion.
The problem with the synthesist was two-fold. Builds with many natural attacks, including if they added sneak attack on (though I'm not sure if this was overall better or worse than the more standard build). BUT ALSO the replacement of physical stats. I really don't want to see that be an option like it was in PF1, however this is a nuanced issue.
Battleform spells, like a druid's wildshape just give you specific stats and that's fine. If the synthesist scales at those same rates, then no problem. The problem will be if the synthesist can advance those beyond what others can already do. I think the answer has to be no, and if they just follow mechanics they've already established it wont be a problem.
I also disagree that the Eidolon wont be a minion. It should absolutely be a minion, because that has a lot of rules attached to it. It does however need to be different from standard minions such that the minion and the Eidolon together have a pool of actions that can be allocated between them in whatever way is desired with neither getting more than 3 actions per turn (and a total combined action economy of 4 actual actions (not ones spent to command), the same as any class with a pet).
Action economy is powerful, and summoners shouldn't get to violate the existing paradigm.
The way I see it, Synthesist will be based on Wild Shape, as a Focus spell Battle Form, with Feats to add abilities, extend duration etc...
The Eidolon Summoner will be based on the Animal Companion, probably Beastmaster style, with Feat, Metamagic & Focus to improve them.
That's the most likely to happen in my opinion.
We already know that the 2E playtest version of synthesis will be a first level feat, at least. It might even be the first feat of a feat chain for the summoner class, but we don't know that for sure.
I don't think that the summoner's eidolon will be the same as an animal companion; at least, not exactly the same. We have already been told that it won't be a minion. In fact, I think it will probably be a little more powerful than an animal companion; though, it will most likely be balanced in some other manner than what we have seen from classes with animal companions.
My opinions here are based on what was said in the Twitch streams from GenCon Online. I provided this information in another thread about the summoner previously, but I think it is relevant here. But, for reference, I transcribed some of the information stated about the Magus and Summoner in the Twitch stream from GenCon Online. I only include the Magus information here (and not all, just that which has relevance to the Summoner, too) because the quotes about the Summoner class, in context, references the Magus information that preceded discussion of the Summoner's spellcasting. I will bold the parts that I think were most relevant to this thread. The quotes about the Magus were from Logan Bonner and the quotes about the Summer were from Mark Seifter.
Quotes regarding the Magus:
“We went with kind of a interesting test version of diminished spellcasting for them.”
“They’re not a 6-level caster; they are a 9-level caster, but they don’t get as many spells.”
Quotes regarding the Summoner:
“So, with the summoner, they have a very similar, though spontaneous, form of that limited, 9-level spellcasting.“
“They give you just a splash of very powerful spells, in addition to the fact that they have an eidolon, which, if you weren’t there for first edition…”
“By working together with their eidolon, the summoner has a ton of options and the eidolon is no mere minion or animal companion. It is a true partner for the summoner. They share a lot of things together and they fight together on the battlefield. Though, there is going to be a first level feat option in the playtest to summon the eidolon into your own body, called Synthesis, and if you want to mostly be playing, like, some kind of weird… (indistinct/talking over each other/changing topic)”
These quotes are the bulk of what was said regarding these classes early on in the Q&A discussion part of the video. So, I don't think I captured every quote, but this is where the bulk of the information about these playtest classes was mentioned.
An option I came up with when working on another homebrew class is that you share MAP.
Which lets you have 6 strikes between you, but still not deal much damage.
An option I came up with when working on another homebrew class is that you share MAP.
Which lets you have 6 strikes between you, but still not deal much damage.
Sharing MAP makes a lot of sense, given that is already how mounted animal companions work. Still doubt you are going to make six strikes, unless one or both of you are Hasted.
Quotes regarding the Summoner:
[i]“So, with the summoner, they have a very similar, though spontaneous, form of that limited, 9-level spellcasting.““They give you just a splash of very powerful spells, in addition to the fact that they have an eidolon, which, if you weren’t there for first edition…”
By working together with their eidolon, the summoner has a ton of options and the eidolon is no mere minion or animal companion. It is a true partner for the summoner. They share a lot of things together and they fight together on the battlefield. Though, there is going to be a first level feat option in the playtest to summon the eidolon into your own body, called Synthesis, and if you want to mostly be playing, like, some kind of weird… (indistinct/talking over each other/changing topic)"
I'll be honest and say I don't read that as a statement of mechanics.
"No mere minion or animal compaion" doesn't mean it wont have the minion trait, it just means it will probably violate some of the normal rules that apply.
The language used in those 3 sentences doesn't sound like statement about mechanics but just descriptive language.
Sharing MAP makes a lot of sense, given that is already how mounted animal companions work. Still doubt you are going to make six strikes, unless one or both of you are Hasted.An option I came up with when working on another homebrew class is that you share MAP.
Which lets you have 6 strikes between you, but still not deal much damage.
At higher level, if the enemy stands still, I could see 6 attacks. I mean, you can always grab flurry of blows.
Though, sharing MAP doesn't work quite as well if you also have spells. Have your pet with a full attack + you casting spells with no penalty, is not going to be balanced.
Quotes regarding the Summoner:
[i]“So, with the summoner, they have a very similar, though spontaneous, form of that limited, 9-level spellcasting.““They give you just a splash of very powerful spells, in addition to the fact that they have an eidolon, which, if you weren’t there for first edition…”
By working together with their eidolon, the summoner has a ton of options and the eidolon is no mere minion or animal companion. It is a true partner for the summoner. They share a lot of things together and they fight together on the battlefield. Though, there is going to be a first level feat option in the playtest to summon the eidolon into your own body, called Synthesis, and if you want to mostly be playing, like, some kind of weird… (indistinct/talking over each other/changing topic)"
I'll be honest and say I don't read that as a statement of mechanics.
"No mere minion or animal compaion" doesn't mean it wont have the minion trait, it just means it will probably violate some of the normal rules that apply.
The language used in those 3 sentences doesn't sound like statement about mechanics but just descriptive language.
That is a fair interpretation of the statement and I certainly won't say that you are wrong. It does not explicitly rule out the minion trait being used. But, I think that, at the very least, it does mean that if the minion trait is used, the rules for the summoner class will modify it when it comes to the eidolon.
When I heard the statement on the stream, in context with rest of the conversation, it seems pretty clear to me that the statements in that stream were more of a blend of talk about mechanics and flavor. So, I was left with the impression that it was a statement about mechanics just as much as it was flavorful description. Judging from his experience and the many streams, interviews, and seminars he has done for Paizo and on his own streaming channel, I am sure that Mark Seifter is very aware of the implications of what making a statement like that about the summoner with the word, "minion", would mean to 2nd edition Pathfinder player base. He is a very canny game designer.
In the end, I don't think you and I are really disagreeing on very much here.
How do people suppose this will work in Pathfinder 2e? I am excited for a balanced version of synthesis I can actually use in PFS...I missed the book announcement, is it just synthesis, or can I haz eidolon?
Yes.
Synthesis is just a level 1 feat / build / option.
Sharing MAP makes a lot of sense, given that is already how mounted animal companions work. Still doubt you are going to make six strikes, unless one or both of you are Hasted.An option I came up with when working on another homebrew class is that you share MAP.
Which lets you have 6 strikes between you, but still not deal much damage.
Wait, you share MAP with animal companions? I did not know this. Where is this in the rules?
Wait, you share MAP with animal companions? I did not know this. Where is this in the rules?Sharing MAP makes a lot of sense, given that is already how mounted animal companions work. Still doubt you are going to make six strikes, unless one or both of you are Hasted.An option I came up with when working on another homebrew class is that you share MAP.
Which lets you have 6 strikes between you, but still not deal much damage.
Only while mounted, not in general. (If you're getting the efficiency of your animal companion's moves moving both of you, there's a tradeoff.)
Wait, you share MAP with animal companions? I did not know this. Where is this in the rules?Sharing MAP makes a lot of sense, given that is already how mounted animal companions work. Still doubt you are going to make six strikes, unless one or both of you are Hasted.An option I came up with when working on another homebrew class is that you share MAP.
Which lets you have 6 strikes between you, but still not deal much damage.
That as for my homebrew class, and a suggestion for the Eidolon.
It's not an official rule.
Only while mounted, not in general. (If you're getting the efficiency of your animal companion's moves moving both of you, there's a tradeoff.)Wait, you share MAP with animal companions? I did not know this. Where is this in the rules?Sharing MAP makes a lot of sense, given that is already how mounted animal companions work. Still doubt you are going to make six strikes, unless one or both of you are Hasted.An option I came up with when working on another homebrew class is that you share MAP.
Which lets you have 6 strikes between you, but still not deal much damage.
Can you tell me where exactly this is in the rules? I want to check for reference, as this directly affects someone I'm in a campaign with.
Is is in the rules? I want to check for reference, as this directly affects someone I'm in a campaign with.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=464
"You and your mount fight as a unit. Consequently, you share a multiple attack penalty. For example, if you Strike and then Command an Animal to have your mount Strike, your mount’s attack takes a –5 multiple attack penalty."
Don't all minions shair MAP with the player?
Don't all minions shair MAP with the player?
Nope, just minions used as mounts.
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The comments from Mark make it very clear the synthesis is something that happens during daily preparation or always on, it won't be a focus spell or something like that, because for the class fantasy of the summoner the eidolon is something that is always out, not summoned in combat.
Thanks for the quotes Ashanderai!
Is is in the rules? I want to check for reference, as this directly affects someone I'm in a campaign with.https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=464
"You and your mount fight as a unit. Consequently, you share a multiple attack penalty. For example, if you Strike and then Command an Animal to have your mount Strike, your mount’s attack takes a –5 multiple attack penalty."
Which makes no sense, as you can instead have a different animal companion like say a hawk, it will get into the fight with no penalty.
I suppose the mount is giving you free move actions for your command animal.Why does the rule exist?
Is is in the rules? I want to check for reference, as this directly affects someone I'm in a campaign with.https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=464
"You and your mount fight as a unit. Consequently, you share a multiple attack penalty. For example, if you Strike and then Command an Animal to have your mount Strike, your mount’s attack takes a –5 multiple attack penalty."
Which make no sense gives you can instead have a different animal companion like say a hawk, it will get into the fight with no penalty.
I suppose the mount is giving you free move actions for your command animal.Why does the rule exist?
You said it yourself...
Mounts are good.
Honestly I'd prefer Synthesis as a type of summoner you can pick. There should be 3 (like rogues have rackets)
Synthesis (You ARE your Eidolon. Lasts as long as you want.)
Summon monster focused (temporary allies)
Eidolon focused (Strong summoned pet)
Yep all 3 are very different, and should be supported in some reasonable way.
Is is in the rules? I want to check for reference, as this directly affects someone I'm in a campaign with.https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=464
"You and your mount fight as a unit. Consequently, you share a multiple attack penalty. For example, if you Strike and then Command an Animal to have your mount Strike, your mount’s attack takes a –5 multiple attack penalty."
Which makes no sense, as you can instead have a different animal companion like say a hawk, it will get into the fight with no penalty.
I suppose the mount is giving you free move actions for your command animal.Why does the rule exist?
Because being mounted would be too good if you didn't share MAP.
Just look at it as the action of the rider and mount affect the other, and takes effort from both to do while mounted.