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Some pretty good stuff for alchemists in this book. The new main discipline toxicologist seems pretty good. One really nice thing is two of the new common bombs in this book have the poison tag. Their creation during daily prep boost is 3 poison items for one reagent. That means they can have a really good mix of weapon/contact poisons AND still have good ranged bomb abilities. It puts it in a good spot flexibility wise and getting 1 action apply poison and and automatically use poison or class DC whichever is better without having to talent it is good.
I think almost everybody who goes this route picks the poisoner archetype as it really compliments it well.
One new feat for every alchemist that they probably all wind up grabbing is being able to add one of the other disciplines perpetual infusions to the list of what they can make for free. Churigeons for sure would pick this up to give them something useful for their on demand stuff which is lacking for them. And if you like what your spec gives you perpetual wise it gives you 2 more recipes of what you can do on the fly which is really strong.
Pretty good additions in general in the item section of the book of useful stuff like a mutagen that gives you a good boost to your AC which is nice for those who want to do more melee stuff and have some good weapon/unarmed attack and don't need bestial. Pretty good honestly for any alchemist to have for cases where they feel they need to go quickly armor up.
Oh I forgot to mention the healer alchemists got a nice feat option for healing bomb. For a free action when doing quick alchemy you can make a healing elixer a couple levels lower than your max into a bomb that you can throw at a willing target to heal them at a safe distance. It only fails to heal on a critical failure otherwise it hits and heals its target.
Very nice for those times when you simply don't have the action economy to run over to somebody to give them a new elixir manually. This feat can literally be a life saver.
2 of the new bombs, Blight and Dread, are also Poisons, so Toxicologist can easily pick those as well, especially since Dread helps with actually landing the poison DCs...
A big benefit is the option of Combat Archetypes, since non-bomber alchemists have a complete lack of combat options, those help a ton to mitigate this if they want to be actually good in combat.
Medics/mutagenist also having access to perpetual bombs is also a really big boon to them imo.
edit: edited out the ratfolk mention since i just noticed it's only for stow, not for retrieve...sigh...
I haven't read them yet, but they increase proficiency beyond the Alchemist's?
I find the new Familiar options to really shine on the Alchemist. Just put your Familiar on the Barbarian and let it heal it/poison its weapon with its free actions. No action heal.
The poison feats are also solid, especially Pinpoint Poisoner. Poisons were lacking DCs, this feat solves the issue.
Healing Bombs have just one (stupid) drawback: Only one per round. Still pretty solid, even on a regular basis.
In my opinion, the Alchemist is now way funnier and a bit less clunky: he can now heal at a distance, you can heal for no action cost, poisons are easier to apply, familiar has more options and is more versatile.
Yes the humunculous poison stuff and ability to actually get enhanced familiar so they can get lab assistant hands and reagents makes them very good lil helpers and improving the action economy.
Honestly with healing bomb thats probably not something you would want to spam as it is lower quality than your normal heals but still in a pinch being able to assist a friend at bomb range is a literal life saver.
Also having a strong AC mutagen is a pretty good option for turtling up if a fight looks like you are going to be in the thick of the fight more than normal.
Honestly with healing bomb thats probably not something you would want to spam as it is lower quality than your normal heals but still in a pinch being able to assist a friend at bomb range is a literal life saver.
Unless you're a level 13+ Chirurgeon and then your Healing Bombs heal more than a normal Elixir of Life.
I find the new Familiar options to really shine on the Alchemist. Just put your Familiar on the Barbarian and let it heal it/poison its weapon with its free actions. No action heal.
The poison feats are also solid, especially Pinpoint Poisoner. Poisons were lacking DCs, this feat solves the issue.
Healing Bombs have just one (stupid) drawback: Only one per round. Still pretty solid, even on a regular basis.In my opinion, the Alchemist is now way funnier and a bit less clunky: he can now heal at a distance, you can heal for no action cost, poisons are easier to apply, familiar has more options and is more versatile.
Concentrate trait prevents that, no?
I haven't read them yet, but they increase proficiency beyond the Alchemist's?2 of the new bombs, Blight and Dread, are also Poisons, so Toxicologist can easily pick those as well, especially since Dread helps with actually landing the poison DCs...
A big benefit is the option of Combat Archetypes, since non-bomber alchemists have a complete lack of combat options, those help a ton to mitigate this if they want to be actually good in combat.
Medics/mutagenist also having access to perpetual bombs is also a really big boon to them imo.
edit: edited out the ratfolk mention since i just noticed it's only for stow, not for retrieve...sigh...
no (although in some cases they match martial/armor proficiency with your best one).
what they do offer though is actual Actions/Reaction/Etc that the alchemist naturally lacks. Plus, access to the combat feats from fighter/paladin/ranger/etc at (usually) a +2 level cost compared to 1/2 level cost of the base class archetypes.
so, you'll still be a proficiency behind a pure martial (capping at expert) but at least you'll have actual martial actions to pair up instead of simply doing Strikes over and over again.
Well, that's at least interesting, maybe it can compensate for the lack of proficiency.
Your proficiency is behind but most alchemist stuff tends to be +1 ahead to hit from the bonus given by the mutagen or bomb than what a normal martial would have access to at that level so it mitigates a bit.
Your proficiency is behind but most alchemist stuff tends to be +1 ahead to hit from the bonus given by the mutagen or bomb than what a normal martial would have access to at that level so it mitigates a bit.Nah, that +1 doesn't even cover the -1 to hit for half the levels because you can never start with an 18 in an attacking stat.
If you are a mutagenist you could likely start with your attack stat maxed as they have the least need to max their int as mutagens are pretty efficient in lasting for a full fight so they go through less per day than others but yes otherwise that is an issue.
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If you are a mutagenist you could likely start with your attack stat maxed as they have the least need to max their int as mutagens are pretty efficient in lasting for a full fight so they go through less per day than others but yes otherwise that is an issue.Your proficiency is behind but most alchemist stuff tends to be +1 ahead to hit from the bonus given by the mutagen or bomb than what a normal martial would have access to at that level so it mitigates a bit.Nah, that +1 doesn't even cover the -1 to hit for half the levels because you can never start with an 18 in an attacking stat.
Because one of your stat boosts is tied to your Class' "primary attribute", Alchemists can't max out their attack stat at an 18 without Optional rules.
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To be clear, Optional Flaws are an optional step, not an optional rule. They're always assumed to be available.
And, hey, alchs do get to do damage on a miss. They've got that going for them at least.
Because one of your stat boosts is tied to your Class' "primary attribute", Alchemists can't max out their attack stat at an 18 without Optional rules.If you are a mutagenist you could likely start with your attack stat maxed as they have the least need to max their int as mutagens are pretty efficient in lasting for a full fight so they go through less per day than others but yes otherwise that is an issue.Your proficiency is behind but most alchemist stuff tends to be +1 ahead to hit from the bonus given by the mutagen or bomb than what a normal martial would have access to at that level so it mitigates a bit.Nah, that +1 doesn't even cover the -1 to hit for half the levels because you can never start with an 18 in an attacking stat.
Yeah, highest they can start out as is 16 Dex or Str. Mutagens can get them to match Martials half the time, and now with the addition of a bomb that gives the Frightened Condition? Alchemists are looking a lot nicer.
A couple of the Archetypes also seem to synergize with the class pretty well too.
To be clear, Optional Flaws are an optional step, not an optional rule. They're always assumed to be available.
And, hey, alchs do get to do damage on a miss. They've got that going for them at least.
I'm fairly certain that since Voluntary Flaws are presented in an Optional: sidebar, the entire section is optional mechanics.
Your interpretation if that is not one I've read elsewhere.
To be clear, Optional Flaws are an optional step, not an optional rule. They're always assumed to be available.
And, hey, alchs do get to do damage on a miss. They've got that going for them at least.
They're not talking about Optional Flaws.
They're talking about the Point Buy Ability Score Variant from the GMG, which does enable Alchemists to start with 18 Strength or Dexterity.
To be clear, Optional Flaws are an optional step, not an optional rule. They're always assumed to be available.
And, hey, alchs do get to do damage on a miss. They've got that going for them at least.
I'm fairly certain that since Voluntary Flaws are presented in an Optional: sidebar, the entire section is optional mechanics.
Your interpretation if that is not one I've read elsewhere.
Their interpretation was mine as well, since I don't think it mentions the GM at all.
To be clear, Optional Flaws are an optional step, not an optional rule. They're always assumed to be available.
And, hey, alchs do get to do damage on a miss. They've got that going for them at least.
They're not talking about Optional Flaws.
They're talking about the Point Buy Ability Score Variant from the GMG, which does enable Alchemists to start with 18 Strength or Dexterity.
Haven’t looked into the Point Buy option to know if that’s true or not. I think the most common baseline assumption would be CRB Character Creation Rules though; in which case the Alchemist does end up being a point behind Martials for half of their career.
Megafauna ends up in the same situation as Voluntary Flaw. It seems like an optional rule that is more relevant on the player side than the GM side; especially since GM gets final say either way.
To be clear, Optional Flaws are an optional step, not an optional rule. They're always assumed to be available.
And, hey, alchs do get to do damage on a miss. They've got that going for them at least.
I'm fairly certain that since Voluntary Flaws are presented in an Optional: sidebar, the entire section is optional mechanics.
Your interpretation if that is not one I've read elsewhere.
It's not intended to be an optional rule, where the GM is expected to allow/disallow. It lets any ancestry reach the maximum ability score, which is an important thing to make all ancestries comparably capable. It's a balanced rule, and is available for PFS, which is a pretty reliable indicator if something is a baseline expectation for availability.
Anyway, it still doesn't get your attack ability to 18, because of the class key ability issue. It just means you can reach 18 INT even if you normally have an INT flaw from your ancestry.
One really nice thing is two of the new common bombs in this book have the poison tag. Their creation during daily prep boost is 3 poison items for one reagent. That means they can have a really good mix of weapon/contact poisons AND still have good ranged bomb abilities. It puts it in a good spot flexibility wise and getting 1 action apply poison and and automatically use poison or class DC whichever is better without having to talent it is good.
I suspect this will end up getting FAQed at some point, but I don't think everyone will agree that the alchemical and poison traits on an alchemical bomb makes it an alchemical poison. I don't think it's intended, as alchemical bomb and alchemical poisons are specific item types that are in separate sections, with separate rules.
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well it is a poison trait that does poison tag damage seems like a poison to me.
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Agree with kaid. It seems very pedantic to look at an item that's both alchemical and a poison and try to argue that it's not alchemical poison.
It's literally why traits exist.
Also it still keeps poisoners in their lane. If you encounter something immune to poison or highly resistant your entire kit is vulnerable to that so you may be forced to quicky make some actual bombs that hit some other element type.
To be clear, Optional Flaws are an optional step, not an optional rule. They're always assumed to be available.
And, hey, alchs do get to do damage on a miss. They've got that going for them at least.
That distinction is not clear from the way the rule is written. It just has the one word Optional. Which you can interpret to mean either.
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I think not giving Alchemist direct access to Enhanced Familiar sucks.
Witches, wizards and sorcerers can take two feats to get Enhanced Familiar without taking a dedication, but not Alchemist.
It's a dedication or settle for a basic familiar,that's it.
Honestly, you could have given them everything from Familiar Master as a Research Feild and called it Monster Maker, and that would have been awesome, but just giving them Enhanced Familiar would be enough.
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Actually, reading it over again, I don't think its really a question
It notes " you can elect to take two additional ability flaws when applying the ability boosts and ability flaws from your ancestry... " and is marked Optional.
Contrast with the variant rule for rolling ability scores from the same chapter "If your GM opts for rolling ability scores, follow these alternative steps, ignoring all other instructions and guidelines about applying ability boosts and ability flaws throughout the character generation process." and is marked Alternative.
In each case, 'you' is the player reading the chapter-- one mentions the you can only do it if your GM permits it, while the other tells you that you can simply elect to do so. It is abundantly clear from the instructions given that there's no clause about the GM having to allow you to do voluntary flaw.
You can house-rule out voluntary flaw if it makes you happy, but RAW the player doesn't need to get permission.
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I made a graphical display of the progression of Alchemical Items. I've added the APG items to it. I thought I'd post it in case others might find it useful.
I have a similar set of tables for those taking Alchemist MC.
Please let me know if you spot any errors.
Enjoy!
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That distinction is not clear from the way the rule is written. It just has the one word Optional. Which you can interpret to mean either.To be clear, Optional Flaws are an optional step, not an optional rule. They're always assumed to be available.
And, hey, alchs do get to do damage on a miss. They've got that going for them at least.
If it would not be optional every character would have to take a flaw. The optional flaw is as optional as buying a class equipment kit. It is 100% there in the base rules but you don't have to do it. Opposed to say selecting a class.
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Mutagenist can finally pick up expert medium armor without much issues (other than costing a class feat). That should improve their viability a bit.
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Found a way to get to the highest single target healing.
Caster Dedication, Dexterous and Independent Familiar, Healing Bombs and level 13 Chirurgeon ability.
Quick Alchemy to create a Healing Bomb and an Elixir of Life. Throw the bomb and use Thoughtful Gift to teleport the Elixir to your Familiar (who's on the Barbarian). Familiar feeds the Barbarian. It's 112 points of healing when a highest level Heal does 7d10+56 = 94.5 points of healing. More than 15% extra healing!!!!
It's expensive in reagents, but at level 13+, you have quite many of them. At least, for desperate situations it works fine.
Found a way to get to the highest single target healing.
Caster Dedication, Dexterous and Independent Familiar, Healing Bombs and level 13 Chirurgeon ability.
Quick Alchemy to create a Healing Bomb and an Elixir of Life. Throw the bomb and use Thoughtful Gift to teleport the Elixir to your Familiar (who's on the Barbarian). Familiar feeds the Barbarian. It's 112 points of healing when a highest level Heal does 7d10+56 = 94.5 points of healing. More than 15% extra healing!!!!
It's expensive in reagents, but at level 13+, you have quite many of them. At least, for desperate situations it works fine.
Holy crap thats a great use for thoughtful gift!
Mutagenist can finally pick up expert medium armor without much issues (other than costing a class feat). That should improve their viability a bit.
There also is a pretty strong ac mutagen as well if you want to just do it that way too. Early on if you have a good weapon or innate attack the AC mutagen probably makes more sense to use than bestial until bestial improves enough to be better weapon wise for you.
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APG made an investigator with Alchemist MC dedication low key the best bomber once you have enough reagents. Int to attack, only attack if you know you won’t miss and waste a bomb, add precision damage, and higher proficiency. You can’t do debilitations effectively, but you can still get calculated splash and even late game sticky bombs if you want to invest feats in more damage.
APG made an investigator with Alchemist MC dedication low key the best bomber once you have enough reagents. Int to attack, only attack if you know you won’t miss and waste a bomb, add precision damage, and higher proficiency. You can’t do debilitations effectively, but you can still get calculated splash and even late game sticky bombs if you want to invest feats in more damage.
Ngl this sounds good. Also being able to rethink the bomb attack if you’re going to miss is kinda huge.
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APG made an investigator with Alchemist MC dedication low key the best bomber once you have enough reagents. Int to attack, only attack if you know you won’t miss and waste a bomb, add precision damage, and higher proficiency. You can’t do debilitations effectively, but you can still get calculated splash and even late game sticky bombs if you want to invest feats in more damage.Ngl this sounds good. Also being able to rethink the bomb attack if you’re going to miss is kinda huge.
The more I think about it I think this, not Eldritch Archer, is the way to a ranged Investigator. Spend money only on a melee weapon, the feats buy you offense and utility and alchemical method still gets you some full power elixirs including mutagens (quicksilver to get +1-2 item bonus over your bombs and +1 over your weapon). And with a free knowledge check on Devise a Strategy you will often know what resistances or weaknesses you’re facing.
EA suffers with action economy IMO but regular archer is okay with it I think. Still alchemist does pair really well.
Y'all remember the Croods?
I keep thinking of Guy the investigator/alchemist and his familiar Belt!
Right, I made a mistake, it's 102, not 112.
Against an adjacent ally it's 120 as you don't need a healing bomb.
Although, Cleric has a 30ft range when Thoughtful Gift has a crazy range and Healing Bomb also has a higher potential range (but it increases your chances to miss, so you won't throw it very far away).
In my opinion, it's nice. It's true that you won't use all your 18 reagents on that, but it allows the Alchemist to be competitive in healing in tough situations. Which is fine by me.
There is no comparison between an Alchemist and a Cleric when it comes to healing, that's for sure. They have different roles. Being able to heal with a similar output a Cleric has, even if it's rarely, is always a good thing.
The main issue of the Alchemist is sustainability. I would never play an Alchemist in an AP, for example, it would be useless. In PFS adventures, on the other hand, the number of fights per day is quite reasonable and you can pull out these kinds of tricks quite easily.
i dont disagree in the sense that apart from Bomber every other archetype of the class is "just there" doing straight up worse than their respective "rival classes". Mutagenist is a bad bard, chirurgeon is a bad healer, etc.
I was just pointing out that even with such a ridiculous (in the sense of effort needed) setup, their burst heal is still lower than the Cleric (who should be around 117 hp healing from 30ft in a round).
Since the APG, I find that Alchemist specializations start to be more on par with Bomber.
And yes, it asks for a lot of effort when for Clerics it comes easily, I completely agree with that. But we all know that Alchemist is not on the high power side of classes. And to put it on par with the rest of the classes, there would need more than a few feats. But if you don't have sustainability issues the current state of the Alchemist is quite nice in my opinion. You won't shine easily but can you pull of quite a few tricks.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is a thread about Alchemist's benefits from the APG. I think a lot of folks were looking to see what the new field looked like for a sense of Alchemist going forward. (At least, that's the case for me.)
Toxicologist really delivers!
- Free scaling DC on every poison. This includes coffee.
- When they get Field Discovery at 5th, they can spend their starting level allotment of reagents to equip a party of four for four fights (okay, fifteen out of sixteen). For any melee weapons, those poisons are very likely to be delivered.
- They can draw-apply-attack.
- They can get at-will bombs without a feat.
- Their perpetual infusions expand to include new common material.
I wouldn't play them in an undead campaign, but I feel like they're compensated very well for poison not working against everything.
Why/how at-will bombs without feat?