Advance Players Guide any Power Creep ?


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Howdy I haven't seen it yet, I tend to get the pdf as all my player handbooks of any edition tend to fall apart after a year or two.

But I was wondering if anything in it represent what we might class as power creep or options that are better than what was in the core book.


Not really, the archetypes are nice, like the combat ones, but they don't replace Fighter MC because they are super specific for a single combat style and don't have Attack of Opportunity and able to have attack feats that don't depends of a combat style.

Diplomacy skill gained a new skill feat called Bon Mot that gives the target -2 Will saves for a minute or until the target answer back, that is a decent boost for Occult and Arcane Charisma casters.

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Some power sink actually, the Monk 20th feat is strictly worse than the one from AoA.


Given the core mechanics of the games systems
No.

However there are certainly some potential options for new and powerful ways to play. But it's not above the curve.


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Exocist wrote:
Some power sink actually, the Monk 20th feat is strictly worse than the one from AoA.

Seems fair, as I recall that feat is rarity-locked and somewhat campaign specific.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ruzza wrote:
Exocist wrote:
Some power sink actually, the Monk 20th feat is strictly worse than the one from AoA.
Seems fair, as I recall that feat is rarity-locked and somewhat campaign specific.

Hasn't it been said a billion times that rarity isn't supposed to have any connection to power?

Going to throw a lot of assumptions out of whack if Paizo's changing that policy there.


Fair, but I also don't have my APG yet. Not sure what this level 20 feat is.


Deadly Strikes basically makes a monk's strikes Deadly D10. Its hard for me to compare it to the extent Monk L20 feats since I don't understand stances well enough to compare to Fuse Stance, but it doesn't seem self-evidently worse than the other two.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Thomas5251212 wrote:
Deadly Strikes basically makes a monk's strikes Deadly D10. Its hard for me to compare it to the extent Monk L20 feats since I don't understand stances well enough to compare to Fuse Stance, but it doesn't seem self-evidently worse than the other two.

They're probably referring to Golden Body, which gives your unarmed strikes deadly d12 and gives you fast healing 20.


Thing is with AP content, I wouldn't be surprised if it gets changed frequently.

In core books the rarity system isn't meant to be there because of power. But with AP I am pretty sure that the rarity system is there so people can't fish for mistake options that aren't likely getting errata'ed by paizo like they commonly did in PF1e.

As it is we have monsters having different stats/abilities between the AP initial release and core book printings anyway. (Shadowgiant and Bonedevil come to mind)


From what we've seen, there isn't power creep, but weaker options have been brought up.

Drakeheart Mutagen makes Mutagen Alchemists way better.

Animate Dead and Enervation makes Necromancers way better.

There's a bunch of archetypes which can give Warpriests a lot more kick.

Snare Specialists, Poison specialists, etc have enough support now.


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Bon Mot being the obvious one.

I personally think the Catfolk and Kobold both push the strength of ancestries, but not enough play experience yet. And it’s not like they’re way overbalanced they just seem a bit overturned compared to what ancestries typically get


Bon Mot sounds pretty good for setting up Will save spells.


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I sure hope Alchemists and low-level Wizards get a lot of power creep.


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Having read through part of it, man its pretty swell i love the barbarian options to hurl their allies around.


A lot of interesting bits in there. Some things that leapt out for me; Aasimar seem like they will be a popular choice, witches look interesting, some very nice Archetypes, and clerics get a new feat called magic hands that is pretty awesome :)

MAGIC HANDS FEAT 6
CLERIC
Prerequisites Healing Hands
The blessing of your deity heightens your healing ability,making your mundane healing work as if by magic. When you succeed at a Medicine check to Treat Wounds, your action gains the divine trait and you heal the maximum amount for the 2d8 (or 4d8 on a critical success). If you have an ability that adds additional dice to your Treat Wounds, you still roll those normally.


TheGentlemanDM wrote:

From what we've seen, there isn't power creep, but weaker options have been brought up.

Drakeheart Mutagen makes Mutagen Alchemists way better.

i disagree.

the mutagen in a nutshell is a +4/max +2dex armor. And it gives -1 to 2 saves and all knowledges.

in short, it's just 1 point better than a medioum armor, but comes with drawbacks and takes your mutagen slot, all for 1 AC boost.

Tanky mutagenists are still much better off using Juggernaut imo. At least this one is something more unique than "1 ac for a bunch of negatives"

The only redemaing feature of Drakeheart is that it's much better as the level 1 option. At that level yes, it is much better than juggernaut.


Drakeheart gives 2 AC for a few levels when you get a new version.
Drakeheart can be used by Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch/Cloistered Cleric for a massive bump in AC (+3).

It's not very interesting for the Alchemist, but it's one of the nicest buffs to melee characters (who will in general care more about AC than Reflex and Will and who will rarely roll Recall Knowledge).
It's, in my opinion, one of the nicest Mutagen to give to other characters, replacing Juggernaut at this role.


I like the new bomb actions, its good to have a fear/enfeeble bomb I looking forward to the inevitable clumsy bomb that will come out at some point.


SuperBidi wrote:

Drakeheart gives 2 AC for a few levels when you get a new version.

Drakeheart can be used by Wizard/Sorcerer/Witch/Cloistered Cleric for a massive bump in AC (+3).

It's not very interesting for the Alchemist, but it's one of the nicest buffs to melee characters (who will in general care more about AC than Reflex and Will and who will rarely roll Recall Knowledge).
It's, in my opinion, one of the nicest Mutagen to give to other characters, replacing Juggernaut at this role.

oh sure, for other party members it is indeed good since it basically also gives them the proficiency (which is something that a melee focused mutagenist can easily gain via other means if he wants to go there)

and it's also a "nice" mutagen as a second mutagen towards end game when you can sustain 2 mutagens. It's just not (imo always) "far better option for the mutagenist himself", if anything, it's kinda redudunt after the first few levels.

it's the same curse that plagues this field since item bonuses on stuff your character cares about (and that applies to other party members as well) is something that you get from other sources either way.

The one thing that irks me and shows the 0 imagination when it comes to the Class is that they could have easily made it at least a bit more interesting by modifing the action you gain from later levels of the mutagen, since the action is 1/mutagen and ends it, they could have easily made it so that the level 1 version is stride, the next version allows waterwalking with said stride, the 3rd version allows flying with said stride and etc.

it wouldnt have boosted the effectiveness by that much but would have made it much more falvorful and useful as a niche solution to terrains and etc.


I really like what they gave in this book to the Alchemist (either directly or indirectly).
The Familiar was good previously but it's now a no-brainer (with Familiar Master Dedication for the extra familiar abilities).
The new bombs fill some niches (especially the anti ghost one, Bombs once again position themselves as weakness-targetting weapons).
Drakeheart is kind of a go to Mutagen for nearly everone in the party. There was no such mutagen before (Juggernaut was fine, but the Perception/Initiative malus was tough).
Healing Bombs are absolutely awesome! They position the Alchemist as the best single target healer at high level.
I'm just sad there are not much new poisons. It's really something lacking, especially at high levels.

Clearly, I had left my Alchemist a bit on the side in PFS, but I'll now play it a lot as I want to test all of that at high level.


there are some good and some bad imo.

there are feats like "tenacious toxins" that are ridicusly weak (a full feat just to gain 1 extra round on the maximum duration for the vast majority of poisons, including every single injury one). As a note, i have never, ever, in any game, seen a poison actually reaching the maximum duration (that's like 6 failed Fort saves in a row lol)

and are feats like the perpetual one that basically enables the whole class (and makes it a feat tax on every non-bomber alchemist)

as for healing bomb, i say it's actually not that strong. Quick alchemy is a terrible burden on healing efficiency, plus it's still 2 actions to heal, so directly comparable to a Heal spell.

Liberty's Edge

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Drakeheart Mutagen, assuming Dex 14 to get the most out of it, grants an AC comparable to Heavy Armor. That's definitely a buff to AC on the 'normally have only Light Armor' Alchemist, if not an exceptional one.

It really shines on those who can't wear armor but get Dex-caps and non-armor bonuses to make up for it, so at the moment Dragon Disciples and Animal Instinct Barbarians (both of whom receive huge benefits from it), but Mutagenists do receive some real benefits from it as well.

Liberty's Edge

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The 12 HP Orc Ancestry with Diehard for free is mighty MIGHTY if you ask me, but I wouldn't call that power creep exactly.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Drakeheart Mutagen, assuming Dex 14 to get the most out of it, grants an AC comparable to Heavy Armor. That's definitely a buff to AC on the 'normally have only Light Armor' Alchemist, if not an exceptional one.

It really shines on those who can't wear armor but get Dex-caps and non-armor bonuses to make up for it, so at the moment Dragon Disciples and Animal Instinct Barbarians (both of whom receive huge benefits from it), but Mutagenists do receive some real benefits from it as well.

sure, it's a +1 to AC (usually). The issue is that it's in place of their other mutagen.

Every mutagen (except juggernaut) is a +1 somewhere +negatives elsewhere.

The issue with the medium armor distribution of stats(14 dex cap 4 base armor) is that medium armor proficiency wasn't hard before to aquire and something you already did when you were going melee mutagenist usually.

For the first few levels till you get your general feats/archetypes to cover up, it's great, but after that it's just a minor compared to renewable temp hps (again, imo).

now, i'm not saying it's bad as an option, but that's mostly because it can cover up the party and can be used at low levels, that's what it really offers, nothing more.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:

Drakeheart Mutagen, assuming Dex 14 to get the most out of it, grants an AC comparable to Heavy Armor. That's definitely a buff to AC on the 'normally have only Light Armor' Alchemist, if not an exceptional one.

It really shines on those who can't wear armor but get Dex-caps and non-armor bonuses to make up for it, so at the moment Dragon Disciples and Animal Instinct Barbarians (both of whom receive huge benefits from it), but Mutagenists do receive some real benefits from it as well.

It's best on Mountain Stance monks, who can no longer be killed.

Dark Archive

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You should always want a bit of power creep. Keeps things fresh and causes meta-shakeups.

All you really need to avoid is Dominant Strategy bottlenecks.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
shroudb wrote:
The issue with the medium armor distribution of stats(14 dex cap 4 base armor) is that medium armor proficiency wasn't hard before to aquire and something you already did when you were going melee mutagenist usually.

Correction: 14 Dex 4 AC is heavy armor, not medium. Medium armor has a Dex+AC of 5 (14 Dex 3 AC or 12 Dex 4 AC), while heavy armor has a Dex+AC of 6.

14 + 4 is not a combination we've seen in heavy before, which was previously 12 + 5 or 10 + 6, so it's a nice option for slightly higher Dex characters.


MaxAstro wrote:
shroudb wrote:
The issue with the medium armor distribution of stats(14 dex cap 4 base armor) is that medium armor proficiency wasn't hard before to aquire and something you already did when you were going melee mutagenist usually.

Correction: 14 Dex 4 AC is heavy armor, not medium. Medium armor has a Dex+AC of 5 (14 Dex 3 AC or 12 Dex 4 AC), while heavy armor has a Dex+AC of 6.

14 + 4 is not a combination we've seen in heavy before, which was previously 12 + 5 or 10 + 6, so it's a nice option for slightly higher Dex characters.

yeah, that's why i said +1 over medium. I'm talking about the 4/2 distribution (as opposed to like 5/1 or 6/0 of heavy) so mostly about 14dex builds that are medium armor. Drakeheart being 4/2 instead of 3/2 like scale and etc is +1 AC over them (so in the range of heavy but with medium armor dexterity requirement)

Liberty's Edge

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Xenocrat wrote:
It's best on Mountain Stance monks, who can no longer be killed.

Mountain Stance is also on the list, yeah, and it's 'only' +4 AC for such Monks, which is certainly absurd, but not complete invulnerability by any means, especially since it takes a bit to set up.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:


It really shines on those who can't wear armor but get Dex-caps and non-armor bonuses to make up for it, so at the moment Dragon Disciples and Animal Instinct Barbarians (both of whom receive huge benefits from it), but Mutagenists do receive some real benefits from it as well.

While true, I can understand why some people might not feel that satisfied with it since generally what I've seen people who play mutagenists complain about has more to do with personal performance.

Especially since (rightly or wrongly) it seemed a lot of fans of these builds were pinning their hopes on the APG making everything better.

Liberty's Edge

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Squiggit wrote:

While true, I can understand why some people might not feel that satisfied with it since generally what I've seen people who play mutagenists complain about has more to do with personal performance.

Especially since (rightly or wrongly) it seemed a lot of fans of these builds were pinning their hopes on the APG making everything better.

Oh, absolutely. I don't really think the APG fixed Alchemist much at all (and Alchemist definitely needed, and needs, some fixing if you want to do anything but throw bombs...or, I guess, maybe use poisons now), I'm just noting that Drakeskin is actually useful for them, and then discussing who else it's good for.


Drakeheart Mutagen is +2 sometimes (level 3 and 4 for example) which makes it awesome at these levels.
+ an extra 1 on Dex-based Monks (who really didn't need that).
+ an extra 2 on Sorcerers, Wizards, Cloistered Clerics and Witchs.
Level 3 Monk: 22 AC/24 with a Shield raised. Completely broken in my opinion.

It's very solid, but not on the Alchemist.

Healing Bombs get pretty awesome once you get to level 13 for a Chirurgeon. It's 2 actions (but you can produce a second item) and it does 2/3 of the healing of a 2-action Heal spell. When you add the healing of your familiar (with Independant, it can even heal without costing you actions), you become a pretty solid healer. And each bomb costs a reagent, so not much at this level (you get nearly 20 of them, so you are more sustainable than a Cleric if you mostly do healing).

I don't see the point of Perpetual Breadth, personally. So, it looks like Alchemist starts to be balanced after all if what one considers a tax feat is another one's weak feat. He just needed a few good feats every now and then.


perpetual breath allows medics to have free bomb options. on later levels, (alongside calculated splash and/or sticky bomb) it is actully the bread and butter of bomber alchemists to use their perpetual bombs instead of actually wasting resources on them. With adequate feat support those free bombs are quite good for a "free" attack.

plus, most of the low level feats are still bomber specific, so it's not like you need to skip crucial stuff to get them...

that said, on the plusses for Alchemists, i'd count some of the items like:
skinitch (a free action +2d8 effectively on battle medicine should be good for medics imo)

also, some peculiarities that i'm sure i'll try to exploit are that both Dread bomb and Blight bomb are tagged as poisons as well, so you can pick them as perpetual with the Toxicologist as well despite them being bombs, gives the Toxicologist a nice ranged option for himself.

what i dislike is that their poison weapon ability is strictly worse than the rogue one still (rogue is 1 action to draw and apply, alchemist is 1 action to apply but they still need to have it on hand)

plus, a lot of the archetypes can help now, since (exactly because feat choices early on are mostly bombs) you used to have free feats for them. Combat archetypes help with "selfish" alchemists a TON, and Snare/Talisman ones help with the toolkit alchemists as well.


shroudb wrote:
perpetual breath allows medics to have free bomb options. on later levels, (alongside calculated splash and/or sticky bomb) it is actully the bread and butter of bomber alchemists to use their perpetual bombs instead of actually wasting resources on them. With adequate feat support those free bombs are quite good for a "free" attack.

The thing is the "quite" word. I think Alchemist has stronger options now than Perpetual Bombs. Poisons are getting quite solid with Sticky and more importantly Pinpoint, I expect a Toxicologist to outdamage a Bomber at high level. And with more Familiar feats, easy access to Animal Companion through Beastmaster and Healing Bombs, the Chirurgeon can now focus on what he does best: support.

So, having Perpetual Bombs could be great if it didn't cost you most of your low level feats (Far Lobber, Calculated/Expanded Splash, Perpetual Breadth, Sticky Bombs, Uncanny Bombs). Bombs were great in the past because there was no competition. Now that the other specialization are more in line with Bomber, I feel that Bombs are a trap option outside Bomber. You have to focus completely on Bombs to make them work, and even as a Bomber it's not crazy good, so if you're not a Bomber it's just too weak.

Of course, my reasoning is only valid if you manage to be quite sustainable. If you have sustainability issues, then Perpetual Bombs can be nice, even if I feel that you should address the sustainability issue first.


you dont need all those feats. Calculated+Sticky is more than enough.

Sticky poison is not spectacular either, it's only 20% to not lose it when you land a hit, and a save still completely nullifies all poison damage instantly (and Fort save is universally the best on average)

afterwards, it's still two actions to apply poison to a melee weapon (to take advantage of pinpoint poison) as opposed to 1 action to throw a bomb.

I dont think toxicologist will be even close to bomber (as a "selfish damage dealear").

For one, perpetual poisons are almost unusable. You need 2 actions to make and apply and 1 to hit. That means you need to be completely static in combat, as opposed to perpetual bombs needing only 2 actions to actually attack with.

Ranged toxicologist seems far better action economy wise (he can have all the ammunition he wants prepoisoned at no action cost as opposed to 2 actions/hit), but then ranged has a much more difficult time using Pinpoint, which is crucial if he wants even 50% chance of landing each poison. Ranged is also completely unusable with perpetual poisons as well (outside of the ranged poison bombs that i mentioned, that still need the bomb feats though if you want to do damage with them), due to hands/actipn issues.

That said, those two, bomber and toxicologist, are for sure the two "top dogs" out of the 4 fields.


SuperBidi wrote:
Level 3 Monk: 22 AC/24 with a Shield raised. Completely broken in my opinion.

It's actually worse than that on a Mountain Stance Monk. At level 3 they have 7 (proficiency) + 4 status (stance) + 5 item (mutagen) = 26 AC without a shield. A champion only has 7 (proficiency) + 6 item (full plate) = 23 before shield. Even if we up it a few levels to the point the champion has his +1 armor the monk AC is still as high as his is with his shield up. Sure, there's opportunity cost to drinking the mutagen, but there's opportunity cost to raising your shield every round too...


Has been mentioned before, but the Variant Heritages have made all the old heritages that granted darkvision to a low-light vision ancestry obsolete. Since now the variant heritage will do the same thing plus allow access to more ancestry feats.

Paizo seems to have realized this considering Catfolk & Tengu don't have a generic "upgrade vision" heritage unlike the previous low-light vision ancestries (though Ratfolk do, which is odd considering the same book invalidates its existence).

Also, with all new ancestries having low-light/darkvision, Humans/Halflings get to be a bit further behind as the only "normal vision" ancestries that can't get darkvision from level 1. Which makes them less useful as a base for a variant heritage and most likely to be the party's problem when they're the only ones who can't see perfectly in the dark (which is nothing new compared to PF1, but still annoying).


Champion only have 21 AC before Shield (5 proficiency).
I expect an errata for Mountain stance Monk as it is clearly an abuse. This AC bonus should be an item bonus, not a status one.

shroudb wrote:
you dont need all those feats. Calculated+Sticky is more than enough.

And Perpetual Breadth, it's still 3 feats. And without Quick Bomber, you can't use them before level 8.

shroudb wrote:

Sticky poison is not spectacular either

Agree, it's just funny.

shroudb wrote:

a save still completely nullifies all poison damage instantly (and Fort save is universally the best on average)

A save? If the enemy does a save, then you don't know how to play a Toxicologist. The base is to force so many saves on the enemy he will fail them and then go to stage 2. At that stage, he will take poison every round and not be able to get out of it unless it's a high level opponent (and even in that case it'll need crit successes to get out of poison).

shroudb wrote:
afterwards, it's still two actions to apply poison to a melee weapon (to take advantage of pinpoint poison) as opposed to 1 action to throw a bomb.

Quick Draw + Doubling Ring = no action.

Valet + Doubling Ring = one action for 2 weapons.
Independant + Poison Reservoir = no action once per fight.
Independant + Valet + Doubling Ring = no action as long as you hit only once per round.

Perpetual Poisons are useless.


Wow does that work, at level 1

Monk (mountain)

10+4 status +4 item + 4 expert +1 level = 23 AC

Or non mountain

10+2 (dex) + 4 item + 4 expert + 1 level for 21 AC

That's a massive game changing AC shift.


SuperBidi wrote:

Champion only have 21 AC before Shield (5 proficiency).

I expect an errata for Mountain stance Monk as it is clearly an abuse. This AC bonus should be an item bonus, not a status one.

shroudb wrote:
you dont need all those feats. Calculated+Sticky is more than enough.

And Perpetual Breadth, it's still 3 feats. And without Quick Bomber, you can't use them before level 8.

shroudb wrote:

Sticky poison is not spectacular either

Agree, it's just funny.

shroudb wrote:

a save still completely nullifies all poison damage instantly (and Fort save is universally the best on average)

A save? If the enemy does a save, then you don't know how to play a Toxicologist. The base is to force so many saves on the enemy he will fail them and then go to stage 2. At that stage, he will take poison every round and not be able to get out of it unless it's a high level opponent (and even in that case it'll need crit successes to get out of poison).

shroudb wrote:
afterwards, it's still two actions to apply poison to a melee weapon (to take advantage of pinpoint poison) as opposed to 1 action to throw a bomb.

Quick Draw + Doubling Ring = no action.

Valet + Doubling Ring = one action for 2 weapons.
Independant + Poison Reservoir = no action once per fight.
Independant + Valet + Doubling Ring = no action as long as you hit only once per round.

Perpetual Poisons are useless.

a) i want to see how you think that you can bypass saves. pretty sure you misunderstand how multiple exposure works here.

b)doubling ring is "cute" at best, since it locks one of your hands to be permanetly the "base magic weapon". At best, that's the same as simply using poisoned ammunitin and a ranged options without all the hassle.

a much more realist approach is something like an Archer archetype hand xbow toxicologist if you're aiming for damage.

But still, it's imo much better simply to cover your ally's weapons with poisons for an alpha strike at the beginning of the encounter and then use low maintenance options for yourself.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DoggieBert wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Level 3 Monk: 22 AC/24 with a Shield raised. Completely broken in my opinion.
It's actually worse than that on a Mountain Stance Monk. At level 3 they have 7 (proficiency) + 4 status (stance) + 5 item (mutagen) = 26 AC without a shield. A champion only has 7 (proficiency) + 6 item (full plate) = 23 before shield. Even if we up it a few levels to the point the champion has his +1 armor the monk AC is still as high as his is with his shield up. Sure, there's opportunity cost to drinking the mutagen, but there's opportunity cost to raising your shield every round too...

This is pseudo hear-say, but when people were originally showing off some options last week on the Pathfinder 2e discord, this came up. One of the developers basically said it was an oversight, and that there is a good chance Mountain Stance might get changed to be item bonus to AC. Time will tell, if errata comes out and they don't change it then Monk is the champion (ironic) of high AC. My unsubstantiated guess is that they will change it to fix this error.


shroudb wrote:

a) i want to see how you think that you can bypass saves. pretty sure you misunderstand how multiple exposure works here.

I don't bypass saves, I just say that if you force the enemy to make a few of them, he will fail one or two. Once it's at stage 2, getting away from poison becomes very hard (especially when someone is still poisoning it every round).

shroudb wrote:
b)doubling ring is "cute" at best, since it locks one of your hands to be permanetly the "base magic weapon". At best, that's the same as simply using poisoned ammunitin and a ranged options without all the hassle.

Ranged weapons are way more expensive as you will use one poison dose per attack, instead of one per hit (and even less with Sticky Poison). Also, it's easier to get Flat-Footed bonus at melee range.

And obviously, you also cover your allies weapon, hence the "many" saves if your party knows how to focus fire.

Liberty's Edge

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AvalonRellen wrote:
This is pseudo hear-say, but when people were originally showing off some options last week on the Pathfinder 2e discord, this came up. One of the developers basically said it was an oversight, and that there is a good chance Mountain Stance might get changed to be item bonus to AC. Time will tell, if errata comes out and they don't change it then Monk is the champion (ironic) of high AC. My unsubstantiated guess is that they will change it to fix this error.

Changing to fix the error seems likely, but just changing Mountain Stance to an Item Bonus in isolation does a bad job of it, since then you can't combine it with Bracers of Armor or enchanted Explorer's Clothing and Mountain Stance winds up deeply bad.

They might make Mountain Stance scale to fix that, or they might adjust some language in Drakeheart Mutagen instead, I could see it going either way, but it's not quite as simple as changing one word in Mountain Stance.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
AvalonRellen wrote:
DoggieBert wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Level 3 Monk: 22 AC/24 with a Shield raised. Completely broken in my opinion.
It's actually worse than that on a Mountain Stance Monk. At level 3 they have 7 (proficiency) + 4 status (stance) + 5 item (mutagen) = 26 AC without a shield. A champion only has 7 (proficiency) + 6 item (full plate) = 23 before shield. Even if we up it a few levels to the point the champion has his +1 armor the monk AC is still as high as his is with his shield up. Sure, there's opportunity cost to drinking the mutagen, but there's opportunity cost to raising your shield every round too...
This is pseudo hear-say, but when people were originally showing off some options last week on the Pathfinder 2e discord, this came up. One of the developers basically said it was an oversight, and that there is a good chance Mountain Stance might get changed to be item bonus to AC. Time will tell, if errata comes out and they don't change it then Monk is the champion (ironic) of high AC. My unsubstantiated guess is that they will change it to fix this error.

I kind of hope they don't change that, making the stance an item bonus wouldn't make much sense when looking at just the monk abilities. It does seem a bit much, but I'm pretty alright with it for a character with a serious weakness like a mountain stance monk (surprise attacks where they haven't entered their stance and haven't taken their mutagen with roughly -9 AC compared to their ideal AC)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
AvalonRellen wrote:
DoggieBert wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Level 3 Monk: 22 AC/24 with a Shield raised. Completely broken in my opinion.
It's actually worse than that on a Mountain Stance Monk. At level 3 they have 7 (proficiency) + 4 status (stance) + 5 item (mutagen) = 26 AC without a shield. A champion only has 7 (proficiency) + 6 item (full plate) = 23 before shield. Even if we up it a few levels to the point the champion has his +1 armor the monk AC is still as high as his is with his shield up. Sure, there's opportunity cost to drinking the mutagen, but there's opportunity cost to raising your shield every round too...
This is pseudo hear-say, but when people were originally showing off some options last week on the Pathfinder 2e discord, this came up. One of the developers basically said it was an oversight, and that there is a good chance Mountain Stance might get changed to be item bonus to AC. Time will tell, if errata comes out and they don't change it then Monk is the champion (ironic) of high AC. My unsubstantiated guess is that they will change it to fix this error.

The errata change is at the top of Mark Seifter's to-do list. Something will be adjusted on Mountain Stance's side of things.

Liberty's Edge

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thewastedwalrus wrote:
I kind of hope they don't change that, making the stance an item bonus wouldn't make much sense when looking at just the monk abilities. It does seem a bit much, but I'm pretty alright with it for a character with a serious weakness like a mountain stance monk (surprise attacks where they haven't entered their stance and haven't taken their mutagen with roughly -9 AC compared to their ideal AC)

The combo amounts to +4 AC beyond literally everyone else, so that's actually not any bigger a weakness than Mountain Stance has already, and given Drakeheart's duration, it probably makes the downside less bad if anything.

The more I think about that, the more I agree it's too powerful.

Now, that said, I would prefer them to change Drakeheart Mutagen itself rather than Mountain Stance to fix this issue (saying it counts as wearing armor is a simple fix, for example), but it should be fine either way.

EDIT:

Ezekieru wrote:
The errata change is at the top of Mark Seifter's to-do list. Something will be adjusted on Mountain Stance's side of things.

Okay, that'll be fine. I'm sure Mark will be able to take the necessary steps without devaluing Mountain Stance.


If they do change it to an item bonus you would be able to stack it with scales of the dragon which would still be decent.


SuperBidi wrote:
shroudb wrote:

a) i want to see how you think that you can bypass saves. pretty sure you misunderstand how multiple exposure works here.

I don't bypass saves, I just say that if you force the enemy to make a few of them, he will fail one or two. Once it's at stage 2, getting away from poison becomes very hard (especially when someone is still poisoning it every round).

shroudb wrote:
b)doubling ring is "cute" at best, since it locks one of your hands to be permanetly the "base magic weapon". At best, that's the same as simply using poisoned ammunitin and a ranged options without all the hassle.

Ranged weapons are way more expensive as you will use one poison dose per attack, instead of one per hit (and even less with Sticky Poison). Also, it's easier to get Flat-Footed bonus at melee range.

And obviously, you also cover your allies weapon, hence the "many" saves if your party knows how to focus fire.

ehhh "a few" of them to fail 1-2 is a far cry from what you wrote. That's like on average 4 succesful hits to reach that point and 4 poison charges. That's a non-insignificant amount of time+resources for one target.

walking into melee with basically a "muted arm" (due to it being stuck with the false weapon) and an empty hand (that is the one that you keep drawing and dropping) as an alchemist is too suicidical for my tastes.

That said, having like 20 scabbards all around you and drawing a weapon, striking, tossing the weapon, repeat, is a hilarious image, and possibly the only reason to go that route.

As for the familiar options, indeed there are multiple of great options there in the apg for the alchemist, but i consider them more as a positive to the whole class rather than the toxicologist, since there are options there for everyone to profit from.


shroudb wrote:
ehhh "a few" of them to fail 1-2 is a far cry from what you wrote. That's like on average 4 succesful hits to reach that point and 4 poison charges. That's a non-insignificant amount of time+resources for one target.

Not at all. Monsters of your level have 30% chance to fail the save. With Pinpoint Poisoner, it's 40%. And any crit fail puts you to stage 2.

But I agree with you that poison is very random. A bit of luck and it cripples an enemy. No luck and it's useless. It's one of the most random option, if not the most random option, of the game.

shroudb wrote:
As for the familiar options, indeed there are multiple of great options there in the apg for the alchemist, but i consider them more as a positive to the whole class rather than the toxicologist, since there are options there for everyone to profit from.

Yes, clearly. I was just showing how the Familiar can help on a Toxicologist. Familiar is awesome for all Alchemist. For me, it's a no-brainer.

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