I kind of hope they don't change that, making the stance an item bonus wouldn't make much sense when looking at just the monk abilities. It does seem a bit much, but I'm pretty alright with it for a character with a serious weakness like a mountain stance monk (surprise attacks where they haven't entered their stance and haven't taken their mutagen with roughly -9 AC compared to their ideal AC)The combo amounts to +4 AC beyond literally everyone else, so that's actually not any bigger a weakness than Mountain Stance has already, and given Drakeheart's duration, it probably makes the downside less bad if anything.
Yeah, I was mostly saying that the mutagen would encourage not buying bracers of armor because they wouldn't stack. So a mountain monk with the mutagen might be even more vulnerable before preparations for a fight than one without.
But I agree, the numbers are a bit over the top even with the mountain monk's identity of being very difficult to hit without investing in Dex.
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Lol oh look something is good *quick demand nerfs it's abuse*
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Lol oh look something is good *quick demand nerfs it's abuse*
There's a difference between "good" and "literally the best option in the game by a wide margin, completely outclassing every other possible playstyle".
Has been mentioned before, but the Variant Heritages have made all the old heritages that granted darkvision to a low-light vision ancestry obsolete. Since now the variant heritage will do the same thing plus allow access to more ancestry feats.
Paizo seems to have realized this considering Catfolk & Tengu don't have a generic "upgrade vision" heritage unlike the previous low-light vision ancestries (though Ratfolk do, which is odd considering the same book invalidates its existence).
Also, with all new ancestries having low-light/darkvision, Humans/Halflings get to be a bit further behind as the only "normal vision" ancestries that can't get darkvision from level 1. Which makes them less useful as a base for a variant heritage and most likely to be the party's problem when they're the only ones who can't see perfectly in the dark (which is nothing new compared to PF1, but still annoying).
I don't see this being an issue. Sure, from a strict powergaming perspective it is, but out of all the various player options, ancestry is by far the one most likely to be made for a flavor reason. The "cost" of tiefling is being a tiefling, which isn't going to mesh with all character concepts.
I have a player, for example, who specifically took Cavern Elf over Dhampir because she wanted to be a drow, not a dhampir. That sort of thing is pretty common. The variant heritages pack a lot of baggage onto your character.
Still working through it all, but I don’t think so. I think it raised the general power level but just because we’ve gotten more options not because those options are better than what we had before. More feat options for classes that were limited, and the number of archtypes makes it much easier to pick up desired abilities more directly than what we had. So more power, but no creep because it’s in the flexibility that we were going to end up with unless paizo stopped printing after the core book.
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Lol oh look something is good *quick demand nerfs it's abuse*There's a difference between "good" and "literally the best option in the game by a wide margin, completely outclassing every other possible playstyle".
That is complete hyperbole.
Best AC sure.
With setup.
Only when you use this stance.
Wich requires you to never leave the ground.
And means no ranged attacks and no ability to jump into the air to hit them with flying kick because you left the ground.
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Let's put it this way - it's so good that a very busy developer put it at the top of his list to fix.
I rest my case.
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Yeah, I was mostly saying that the mutagen would encourage not buying bracers of armor because they wouldn't stack. So a mountain monk with the mutagen might be even more vulnerable before preparations for a fight than one without.
But I agree, the numbers are a bit over the top even with the mountain monk's identity of being very difficult to hit without investing in Dex.
Nah, you still need the Bracers for Saves so everyone would still grab them.
And yeah, this seems an unintended interaction in need of a fix.
Lol oh look something is good *quick demand nerfs it's abuse*
Lots of stuff in the APG is good. Indeed, Swashbuckler and Investigator both look amazing in their own ways, and I'd be shocked to see most of them nerfed in any way. But, as MaxAstro notes, there's a difference between 'good' and 'so vastly better than every other option it breaks the game'.
A Mountain Stance Monk with Drakeheart Mutagen is the latter, and in desperate need of a fix the more I think about it.
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Lol oh look something is good *quick demand nerfs it's abuse*There's a difference between "good" and "literally the best option in the game by a wide margin, completely outclassing every other possible playstyle".That is complete hyperbole.
Best AC sure.
With setup.
Only when you use this stance.
Wich requires you to never leave the ground.
And means no ranged attacks and no ability to jump into the air to hit them with flying kick because you left the ground.
Huh?
Action 1: Jump (ends stance)
Action 2: Any attack.
Action 3: Reenter stance.
Kangaroo druids (because they jump to enable their wildshape attack before reentering Mountain Stance for AC) Monk MC were discovered a long time ago.
Lol oh look something is good *quick demand nerfs it's abuse*There's a difference between "good" and "literally the best option in the game by a wide margin, completely outclassing every other possible playstyle".That is complete hyperbole.
Best AC sure.
With setup.
Only when you use this stance.
Wich requires you to never leave the ground.
And means no ranged attacks and no ability to jump into the air to hit them with flying kick because you left the ground.
Huh?
Action 1: Jump (ends stance)
Action 2: Any attack.
Action 3: Reenter stance.Kangaroo druids (because they jump to enable their wildshape attack before reentering Mountain Stance for AC) Monk MC were discovered a long time ago.
Flying kick is two actions. But yes you have to burn an action every round to maintain it, no other stance does. Mountain Stance is only good with uncreative DMS.
Yeah, I was mostly saying that the mutagen would encourage not buying bracers of armor because they wouldn't stack. So a mountain monk with the mutagen might be even more vulnerable before preparations for a fight than one without.
But I agree, the numbers are a bit over the top even with the mountain monk's identity of being very difficult to hit without investing in Dex.
Nah, you still need the Bracers for Saves so everyone would still grab them.
And yeah, this seems an unintended interaction in need of a fix.
Lol oh look something is good *quick demand nerfs it's abuse*Lots of stuff in the APG is good. Indeed, Swashbuckler and Investigator both look amazing in their own ways, and I'd be shocked to see most of them nerfed in any way. But, as MaxAstro notes, there's a difference between 'good' and 'so vastly better than every other option it breaks the game'.
A Mountain Stance Monk with Drakeheart Mutagen is the latter, and in desperate need of a fix the more I think about it.
I expect many high level swashbuckler feats to be changed then because they give advantage from 5e and that's mathematically equivalent to about +5.
A Mountain Stance Monk with Drakeheart Mutagen is the latter, and in desperate need of a fix the more I think about it.
It wouldn't take much more than saying "Abilities that require you to be unarmored don't function while benefiting from this mutagen" would it? Seems an easy enough houserule in the interim, though I know that's no use for PFS.
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Changing to fix the error seems likely, but just changing Mountain Stance to an Item Bonus in isolation does a bad job of it, since then you can't combine it with Bracers of Armor or enchanted Explorer's Clothing and Mountain Stance winds up deeply bad.
Could be as simple as just saying that mountain stance/animal skin's bonus counts as armor for the purpose of potency runes.
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I expect many high level swashbuckler feats to be changed then because they give advantage from 5e and that's mathematically equivalent to about +5.
Well, counting a Save as one category better is effectively a +10 in many circumstances and we have that, so that seems unlikely.
You need to look at what those Feats apply to, and they are, respectively, the following:
1. Derring-Do applies to Skill checks that would get you Panache while you already have Panache. That's really good but also very limited in what actions it effects and what circumstances you can do it in.
2. Felicitous Riposte applies it to Opportune Riposte. That's a Reaction that only triggers under very specific and pretty rare circumstances. Also, this is a 16th level Feat. You can also spend several other Feats to make it trigger much more commonly...but at that point you're spending at least three Class Feats, including your 16th and 18th level ones, on this specifically.
3. Incredible Luck applies it to a Save you have enhanced with Charmed Life. This is probably the most powerful of the three...and an 18th level Feat.
A comparable AC Feat to those effects for a Monk would be getting +4 AC as a Reaction, vs. one attack, as a 16th or 18th level Feat. The current situation with Drakeheart Mutagen and Mountain Stance is getting +4 AC for the whole combat as a cheap consumable.
Those are not equivalent situations and acting like they are is just not reasonable.
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that level 20 monk feat is the challenger deep of power sinks
I don't see this being an issue. Sure, from a strict powergaming perspective it is, but out of all the various player options, ancestry is by far the one most likely to be made for a flavor reason. The "cost" of tiefling is being a tiefling, which isn't going to mesh with all character concepts.
I have a player, for example, who specifically took Cavern Elf over Dhampir because she wanted to be a drow, not a dhampir. That sort of thing is pretty common. The variant heritages pack a lot of baggage onto your character.
Thread was asking for examples of power creep, and I'd certainly classify a new option doing the same thing as an old option + more as fitting the definition.
Plus yes, you can always choose inferior options for thematic reasons, but that's a rather poor excuse for thematic options being mechanically inferior in the first place. And as for baggage... you didn't really mention Aasimar, whose only baggage seems to be that common people think they're awesome (& mechanically can eventually gain flight).
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If it's power creep, it's the slowest, most meager creep ever.
And all Paizo has to do to make it not creep is print a few feats that are specific to those heritages - which some heritages even already have.
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I don't see this being an issue. Sure, from a strict powergaming perspective it is, but out of all the various player options, ancestry is by far the one most likely to be made for a flavor reason. The "cost" of tiefling is being a tiefling, which isn't going to mesh with all character concepts.
I have a player, for example, who specifically took Cavern Elf over Dhampir because she wanted to be a drow, not a dhampir. That sort of thing is pretty common. The variant heritages pack a lot of baggage onto your character.
Thread was asking for examples of power creep, and I'd certainly classify a new option doing the same thing as an old option + more as fitting the definition.
Plus yes, you can always choose inferior options for thematic reasons, but that's a rather poor excuse for thematic options being mechanically inferior in the first place. And as for baggage... you didn't really mention Aasimar, whose only baggage seems to be that common people think they're awesome (& mechanically can eventually gain flight).
Those options are restricted by rarity so not automatic picks. And it’s worth noting that all are obvious, you don’t get the effect of being an Aasimar without it being obvious that you are one.
And at least from my perspective the perceived bonus is a rather small one. Sure you can pick the ancestry for some additional options, but in the standard game you only get 5 picks over a full character. There are already a swath of good picks for any given ancestry. In fact most ancestry’s already have more options each than all three of the plainer scions, each fairly equivalent in power. So to me getting an extra dozen options I might maybe pick one of isn’t enough to qualify as power creep.
that level 20 monk feat is the challenger deep of power sinks
This one does stand out a lot. It's a significant, direct downgrade over an already printed feat. Makes me really wonder.
I also worry it's going to become a sticking point about rarity in the future.
That aside it's kind of a conceptually underwhelming level 20 feat too and stands out as a lot less interesting than the stuff it's competing against.
Maybe it's just me, but as soon as I read it, I realized Golden Body was excessively strong and easily better than all other Monk options by a long shot?
Is the new feat that's in line with all the other feats the problem, or a too-strong one tucked at the end of an adventure path that every Monk player from here to the end of PF2 will probably be begging their GM to let them take?
I think it's a good example of when rarity isn't used just to lock out a highly powerful option, but since it's a significant overreach they never have to address it, technically, since it is rarity-locked (and campaign-locked, and decisions-within-that-campaign-locked, from a publisher point of view).
that level 20 monk feat is the challenger deep of power sinks
Yeah, that Feat compared to pretty much every 20th level Monk feat printed so far, really stands out like a turd in a punch bowl. It’s underwhelming, not flavorful at all, and only does anything at all on a crit. Meanwhile, at 18, we’ve got a bona fide Shounen Battle Form.
Is the new feat that's in line with all the other feats
Well, just for starters it really isn't.
Is the new feat that's in line with all the other featsWell, just for starters it really isn't.
Permanently quickened, but for movement only...
Can use your reaction to cause an opponent to reroll a successful attack (or reroll a failed save)...
These aren't very solid capstone feats. I don't think adding a 3d10 to every critical hit is out of line with these.
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Permanently quickened, on the fastest class in the game. You got crit? ‘Nah man, reroll that.’ Those vs a Feat that only does something on a crit.
Maybe it's just me, but as soon as I read it, I realized Golden Body was excessively strong and easily better than all other Monk options by a long shot?
Is the new feat that's in line with all the other feats the problem, or a too-strong one tucked at the end of an adventure path that every Monk player from here to the end of PF2 will probably be begging their GM to let them take?
I think it's a good example of when rarity isn't used just to lock out a highly powerful option, but since it's a significant overreach they never have to address it, technically, since it is rarity-locked (and campaign-locked, and decisions-within-that-campaign-locked, from a publisher point of view).
Goldenboy is about the right level for a level 20 feat. it might be good, but its isnt anything broken. other level 20 feat include another level 10 slot, or metamagic as a free action, there a lot of level 20 feats that are really really good. heck the other 2 level 20 monk feats are pretty good also.
Even if golden boy didnt exist, this is just a very very poor level 20 feat, easily the worst in the game. I'm more incline to think it's a mistake rather than golden boy. it's just a horrendously bad feat. it's a level 20 feat.
Permanently quickened, on the fastest class in the game. You got crit? ‘Nah man, reroll that.’ Those vs a Feat that only does something on a crit.
You know, it's kinda interesting that Impossible Technique works against critical hits, from the wording, considering it doesn't work on critically failed saves.
True Rysky, but it still just matches up against Impossible Technique and Fuse Stance. Yeah, it’s a bit more powerful, but it’s not really out of line. Deadly Strikes is just... not good.
Permanently quickened, on the fastest class in the game. You got crit? ‘Nah man, reroll that.’ Those vs a Feat that only does something on a crit.You know, it's kinda interesting that Impossible Technique works against critical hits, from the wording, considering it doesn't work on critically failed saves.
But... it does work on critically failed saving throws. Nothing in the Feat says that it doesn’t.
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It's just a straight damage buff, but I'd put it on par with Impossible Technique (a defensive buff) which is useable only once per round (unless I missed Monks getting multiple Reactions per round).
Fuse Stance entirely depends on what stances you take or use, if you only have one then it's of no value to you.
Endurance of the Rooted Tree also exists, and it makes you able to survive pretty much anywhere, plus tosses in no-action Wholeness of Body with it.
Not really. It doesn’t warp the whole game around it, and create unhealthy gameplay loops like Blood Money did. It’s a capstone Feat that’s potent, but not out of line.
Yes, Golden Body is an uncommon campaign feat, but we've been told so many times that rarity is completely divorced from an option's power.
So it feels weird to then turn around and have stuff like this that directly contradicts Paizo's own stated design principles.
It's just a straight damage buff, but I'd put it on par with Impossible Technique (a defensive buff) which is useable only once per round
Not sure I'd agree here at all. Being able to force a reroll every round is a really nice defensive tool.
The amount of damage deadly is worth on average is surprisingly low, albeit dependent on your crit chance.
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Yes, Golden Body is an uncommon campaign feat, but we've been told so many times that rarity is completely divorced from an option's power.
So it feels weird to then turn around and have stuff like this that directly contradicts Paizo's own stated design principles.
It's just a straight damage buff, but I'd put it on par with Impossible Technique (a defensive buff) which is useable only once per roundNot sure I'd agree here at all. Being able to force a reroll every round is a really nice defensive tool.
The amount of damage deadly is worth on average is surprisingly low, albeit dependent on your crit chance.
*nods* At Level 20 I'd take a guess that you could have a pretty good Crit chance.
Also how many other Reactions you'd have access to at that point?
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If the Drakeheart/Battleforms + Scales of the Dragon/Mountain interaction gets fixed, I assume it will be on the Scales/Mountain Stance end. Having them as status bonuses makes sense thematically (they’re not items) but causes wonky interactions with anything else that does give you an item bonus (or Battleforms) while remaining unarmored.
If you look at the numbers, there’s some clear discrepancies
A level 11 Druid can have 37 AC (22+11+4) while in elemental form with Mountain Stance, with a +23 hit bonus (11+4 Expert+4 Str+2 item+2 status), 35 AC if they use scales instead to not be confined to the set routine of jump/fly->Strike/Flurry->Mountain. They deal 2d10+13+potentially 2d6 depending on property rune ruling (24 or 31) damage per strike.
A level 11 giant barb has 28 AC (10+11+5 armour/dex+2 trained+1 potency-2 Rage) and deals 2d12+5+2+10+2d6 (37) damage per strike.
Of course this is kind of a cherry picked level but I look at those numbers and think hmm.
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I think clearly at least one of the two Feats is in error to some degree.
That said, I think it's probably at least partially Golden Body that's the issue...not because it's Uncommon or in an AP, but because several aspects of AoA specifically were not standardizedyet due to it being the first AP and it is thus generally a bit off mechanically in a few different ways.
Now, it's also very possible that Deadly Strikes is also undertuned as well as Golden Body being overtuned, and indeed that's where I'd put my money, but I think Golden Body being overtuned is the more probable if you assume only one of them is an issue.
Wow. Stoke the Heart is powerful. Up to +6 status bonus to damage for 1 minute once per combat. Nasty.
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I don't see this being an issue. Sure, from a strict powergaming perspective it is, but out of all the various player options, ancestry is by far the one most likely to be made for a flavor reason. The "cost" of tiefling is being a tiefling, which isn't going to mesh with all character concepts.
I have a player, for example, who specifically took Cavern Elf over Dhampir because she wanted to be a drow, not a dhampir. That sort of thing is pretty common. The variant heritages pack a lot of baggage onto your character.
Thread was asking for examples of power creep, and I'd certainly classify a new option doing the same thing as an old option + more as fitting the definition.
Plus yes, you can always choose inferior options for thematic reasons, but that's a rather poor excuse for thematic options being mechanically inferior in the first place. And as for baggage... you didn't really mention Aasimar, whose only baggage seems to be that common people think they're awesome (& mechanically can eventually gain flight).
I'm pretty certain mere access to other feats is not considered when budgeting something's value. Multiclass dedications seem to universally give the equivalent of a feat (or simply just give you a feat), plus also give you access to other feats, and they are considered to be the equivalent to a class feat.
The versatile heritages don't render previous vision upgrade heritages obsolete when both are used for different purposes. If you ignore the access granted by the feats, and as I said I think that's exactly what Paizo does when they're in balancing mode, these heritages are exactly in line with current ones. If you're not going to pickup any of the later Aasimar/Tiefling/Changling/whatever feats, then the versatile heritages give you nothing.
Also, Celestial Wings is equivalent to a level 4 innate spell. That;s on the stronger end for a level 9 ancestry feat, but still within established ranges.
Wow. Stoke the Heart is powerful. Up to +6 status bonus to damage for 1 minute once per combat. Nasty.Eeeeh it's also 10 actions to keep it up for 1 minute.
Much better to look at it like +6 damage/action at level 17. OK since it's at will, but nothing grand.
A single action for +6 damage on every martial attack for 10 rounds? That is indeed grand. What else can do that for a martial or archer?
Bon Mot being the obvious one.
I personally think the Catfolk and Kobold both push the strength of ancestries, but not enough play experience yet. And it’s not like they’re way overbalanced they just seem a bit overturned compared to what ancestries typically get
Agreed... and I find it odd that I can actually find arguments that kobolds might be any degree of unbalanced...
Seriously though. They essentially get an AoE cantrip with a slight cool down. Sure, it is line or cone, but it can actually use your class DC for the save. So no mental stat necessary for a martial, as well as free scaling.
Cones are also rather nice if you are a martial rather than a caster, since you are the ones most likely to be near a group of enemies without much issue. And we all know electric arc is considered the best cantrip mostly because it can hit one additional target- 15' cones could get much more with a good position.
There is also an option to ramp up the damage and range with a later feat (at the cost of a 1 hr cool down). I immediately moved to consider a dragon barbarian running around with two elements to act as the party's AoE. Not the strongest blaster, mind you, but add in Attacks of Opportunity, and you start to have a play style that lets you think of large swaths of the board at once with various options.