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Just going to go through some wordy context, I'll put an asterisk (*) if you want to skip the meat and potatoes of my concern and get to broad strokes.
So I'm currently GMing through Extinction Curse (don't worry, no spoilers) and I have a party which includes a Fighter, Champion (Redeemer), Bard (multiclass into Redeemer) and a Cleric (Cloisted). All level 9. We've hit Book 3 and, well, my party is a mix bag of moods. On the upshot, the Fighter is goading me to bring it on as though he's unstoppable and the Champion is having an okay time. The Bard and Cleric though, well, their moods are souring hard and fast.
It's a balance issue.
The fighter has this build where he uses trip A LOT and then attack-of-opportunity on the way up. It actually happens to an incredible frequency, and really made me aware no stat block features an immunity to such a thing (even beings without an anatomy to trip, like a Gelatinous Cube) nor a way to get up without provoking. It has led to this monstrous powerhouse of DPS as he'll just use Knockdown, Advantageous Assault then Attack of Opportunity on the way up, presenting two attacks a turn without MAP, getting rid of an action by the enemy and an extra attack for good-luck. This gets just immensely worse if he's managed to Tumble his way past the frontline and get to the spellcasters where he'll AOO any spellcasting and keep tripping, keeping the action economy to such a point where they can't really cast spells and move away, nor can they cast spells and keep concentrate spells rolling. That's even ignoring how critically hitting them will disrupt the spell, which their AC versus his attack chance makes it very likely. Improved Knockdown at next level will lower this Knockdown to a single action, so more straight attacks and I'm sure there'll be more ways to increase the power of this tactic.
The inverse is the Bard and Cleric, which putting aside limited spells per day does lead me to a conversation about attack rolls. Fighters are able to enchant their weapons to hit more often, to my knowledge spell casters lack the capacity to increase their attack roll. So this leads to a Fighter with a +20 to hit able to swing all day, versus two spellcasters with a +17 to hit (and DC27). Again, could roll off my back, but with a creature they just fought having an AC30 and saving throws of +17 Fort, +23 Reflex & +20 Will, the chances are just against the casters. The creature makes the save at least 50% of the time, dodges spell attack rolls on a 13 or above and dodges physical attacks on a 16 or above. That's after levelling, which happened after fighting this thing.
The only thing I've managed to work out so far is home-ruling some trip immunities for creatures lacking the antatomy to be tripped, which is about 3 or 4 fights in the last five months. Beyond that, I have a fighter who is definitely chuffed, a redeemer who is enjoying things fine as long as he remembers to Glimpse of Redemption and attack of opportunity people, two spellcasters who are vaguely annoyed at their inability to do much (ignoring the times the campaign offered ways to Feeblemind their already pathetic spellcasting into oblivion) and me who is just frustrated at seeing fights play out the same way over and over.
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So, after all that, I'm kind of left wondering if Fighters might have accidentally displaced spellcasters. If clerics are no longer the dominant powerhouses they were, and now are actually behind the curve. While Fighters can get to just an insane degree that I'm left actually triple checking to see if there is a way to increase their amounts of AOO outside of the level 20 feat because they less control the battlefield but rather dominate it with big flashy DPS.
I adore the Success effects, as it generates significantly less all-or nothing and offers an olive branch for spellcasters who do miss. I also like that spellcasters aren't just trashing everything on-sight like they could in 1st. In addition is how I've found melee-classes like Monks and Fighters are in just a great state now and are no longer cap-out or just underwhelm. However, I've just hit this point where I have beleaguered and upset spellcaster players who feel unable to do much while the fighter of the group steamrolls everything, and I don't know what to do or say besides "well, reroll?".
I genuinely open this discussion (which I'm sure has been done before but I couldn't find it at a glance, I'm really sorry!) less out of player frustration their favourite class isn't the best in the world any more, and more because I'm just growing increasingly distressed by having players feel just totally powerless and annoyed their build doesn't work for reasons beyond anyone. That they keep missing with a limited pool of spells. I'm just really not sure what to do any more. I'm really open to advice, with the caveat that I'm running through Extinction Curse so it is pre-gen material.
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Rules Forum is probably the wrong spot for this.
My experience is a Age of Ashes Campaign all the way through to 20, and one to level 13. Both parties include a champion - one with a maul-fighter and bard and alchemist; the other with a archer fighter, barbarian, druid, and arcane sorc.
I'm currently playing a Cleric in an Extinction Curse game.
Commentary -
Bards are probably the most powerful class in the game, hands down. Their ability to manipulate math is absolutely broke-tier, and their spell list is amazing. They make those Martial characters better to the tune of an additional effective level or 2, which matters a LOT in Pathfinder 2E.
Clerics are extremely effective, but having one in addition to a shield champion may make their healing a tad redundant. A tanky Champion effectively removes the need for a real healer, but my experience playing a cleric in a campaign LACKING such a Champion is that the healing is critical to keeping my party on their feet. Their spell list great for support.
Something a lot of people miss on Spellcaster accuracy is that they are tuned the way they are because their spells often do something even if the target makes their save, so they have three success results (critical failure, failure, success) where they inflict negatives on their foes as opposed to a Martial only getting two results (success, critical success) with effects. This is intentional. Spellcasters really need to target weak saves, but when they do they'll have reasonable success and do solid work.
Spell attack rolls are less effective than Melee attack rolls, which should be accounted for - the Bard, at least, can use True Strike to mostly mitigate this.
Spellcasters also need to make sure they're understanding what they're accomplishing. Any spell that steals an action from a boss (Level +2 or Level +3 enemy) is an effective spell. Spells that add +1 to hit or remove AC from the target are extremely effective due to how the math works.
In general, Spellcasters may appear weaker this edition because they're definitely less flashy than they used to be, and Fighters are much more flashy in what they accomplish. But its well played Spellcasters that will complicate things for the GM and save the party when things go south.
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I'm trying soooo very hard as a sorcerer to stay positive, but I'm level 5 in PFS and it's getting incredibly difficult to stay positive. I can literally feel that I'm getting weaker. Enemies are becoming hit-point bags that are best overcome with a fighter's crits, or a rogue's or barbarian's consistency. My puny little fireball, though good in fights with a bunch of little things, finds itself almost completely ineffective against anything of a higher level than me.
Why is it that fighters get to fight well, but it feels like spellcasters don't get to spell well? I feel like I've got to be missing something. I don't want to play debuff. I don't want to play support. I want to be a blaster, and I'm feeling more and more like that position has been removed from the game in any way that can outclass the martials...
It's not that I want to "Be the best". It's that I honestly feel, in comparison, that casters are now at the lower end of the spectrum. I just want to be halfway decent. My GM worries every time the fighter's turn comes around. Never worries for mine.
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I'm trying soooo very hard as a sorcerer to stay positive, but I'm level 5 in PFS and it's getting incredibly difficult to stay positive. I can literally feel that I'm getting weaker. Enemies are becoming hit-point bags that are best overcome with a fighter's crits, or a rogue's or barbarian's consistency. My puny little fireball, though good in fights with a bunch of little things, finds itself almost completely ineffective against anything of a higher level than me.
Why is it that fighters get to fight well, but it feels like spellcasters don't get to spell well? I feel like I've got to be missing something. I don't want to play debuff. I don't want to play support. I want to be a blaster, and I'm feeling more and more like that position has been removed from the game in any way that can outclass the martials...
It's not that I want to "Be the best". It's that I honestly feel, in comparison, that casters are now at the lower end of the spectrum. I just want to be halfway decent. My GM worries every time the fighter's turn comes around. Never worries for mine.
Good news! At level 5 you actually are weaker, because everything actually got tougher because all your Martial Buddies just got Expert Proficiencies. Its actually extremely weird why its set up like this, but the theory I think is most likely is that third level spells are considered to be a big power bump.
Its actually the Worst Level in the Game for Spellcasters. 6 is almost as bad, but at 7 you'll be back to where you should be.
Hang in there.
At level 13, my parties Sorcerer (I'm the GM) consistently outdamages everyone, and not just against mooks.
Pro-Tip - Phantasmal Killer is a nuke now, and a darned good one. You're two levels away from it, but look forward to it!
Good news! At level 5 you actually are weaker, because everything actually got tougher because all your Martial Buddies just got Expert Proficiencies. Its actually extremely weird why its set up like this, but the theory I think is most likely is that third level spells are considered to be a big power bump.
Its actually the Worst Level in the Game for Spellcasters. 6 is almost as bad, but at 7 you'll be back to where you should be.
Hang in there.
At level 13, my parties Sorcerer (I'm the GM) consistently outdamages everyone, and not just against mooks.
Pro-Tip - Phantasmal Killer is a nuke now, and a darned good one. You're two levels away from it, but look forward to it!
Actually pretty good! It's a shame that I'm an elemental sorcerer so I'm stuck with the primal list, though. Any help with that one?
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This is, as you've assumed, a very often brought up topic. Casters in second edition are much more of a support class than they used to be. If adding onto the fighters chance to hit or healing or controlling the flow of battle isn't something the players enjoy, they are a little out of luck. Blasting is not what it was in first edition, with only you're highest and second highest level spells really being worth casting in the proper situation. Also cleric and bard use the most supportive/control oriented spell lists, with very few directly offensive spells, which might not be what your players had in mind when making the characters.
Some small tips and thoughts. There are a lot of mediocre spells, and a couple standouts. Electric arc is huge, if your PC's can get it through ancestries that can make that accessible that would be a big help when they're out of big spells. Focus spells are another big one - there are a couple decent cleric focus spells but there are also a lot of mediocre ones. Some low level spells stay good all game, things like illusiory object, fear, color spray, command (command is especially good with a party with AoO).
It can also help (though it can be a giveaway on creatures) to let PC's know where the extra boost from things like inspire courage really pay off. In my game whenever an attack only landed because of our bard, our gm tells us all, and we love our bard more for it.
And casters only get crazier as the game goes on. When your party can teleport or plane shift or whatever other crazy high level thing, they'll probably start having more fun.
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Actually pretty good! It's a shame that I'm an elemental sorcerer so I'm stuck with the primal list, though. Any help with that one?Good news! At level 5 you actually are weaker, because everything actually got tougher because all your Martial Buddies just got Expert Proficiencies. Its actually extremely weird why its set up like this, but the theory I think is most likely is that third level spells are considered to be a big power bump.
Its actually the Worst Level in the Game for Spellcasters. 6 is almost as bad, but at 7 you'll be back to where you should be.
Hang in there.
At level 13, my parties Sorcerer (I'm the GM) consistently outdamages everyone, and not just against mooks.
Pro-Tip - Phantasmal Killer is a nuke now, and a darned good one. You're two levels away from it, but look forward to it!
Uh... my Druid player wasn't nuking back then, so I don't remember what the star primal spells are in that range or shortly upcoming.
You get all the good Elemental nuke stuff, and a number of decent support spells. The mainline elemental nukes will do good damage to stuff thats your level with weak/moderate saves against your number. Those are your fireballs and such.
I'd generally recommend to keep in mind that things like Frightened actually lower peoples Saves, so if you have Intimidate leading with Demoralize when you're already in range is a good idea.
Nukes against higher level enemies are tough. They will make their saves more often, but its actually fairly proportional to the number of extra misses your martial buddies are going to suffer. Except when you 'miss' (the enemy makes his save), you still get half damage.
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To phrase that differently, people are expecting to see all the different stuff a class can do rated from 1-10 and casters be 10 in every category they can do - so now that they have ratings more along the lines of being a little higher in this, a little lower in that, and maybe having a category or two of things a non-caster can't do (the literal picture of balance) it feels like an over-correction.
I want to believe this is kind of what is happening (and it definitely doesn't help having a Fighter who is REALLY good at DPS and action economy shutdowns), but then my players are at a loss: What are they meant to do then? The Cloisted Cleric is built with healing in mind, but her attack chance is so diabolical that any attacks like Divine Lance are unfortunately a joke that doesn't get funnier as time goes on.
Rules Forum is probably the wrong spot for this.
Sorry, it seemed the best place since I'm addressing rules concerns than the adventure path itself.
Bards are probably the most powerful class in the game... Clerics are extremely effective...
Yeah, unfortunately, it's those two classes I'm having a bit of a problem in my group in terms of feeling unsatisfied. Healing is there and songs are there, but to paraphrase my bard player "if my job can be done by a drinking bird pressing the enter button to continue song, then it's boring".
Something a lot of people miss on Spellcaster accuracy is that they are tuned the way they are because their spells often do something even if the target makes their save, so they have three success results (critical failure, failure, success) where they inflict negatives on their foes as opposed to a Martial only getting two results (success, critical success) with effects. This is intentional. Spellcasters really need to target weak saves, but when they do they'll have reasonable success and do solid work.
Spell attack rolls are less effective than Melee attack rolls, which should be accounted for - the Bard, at least, can use True Strike to mostly mitigate this.
Spellcasters also need to make sure they're understanding what they're accomplishing. Any spell that steals an action from a boss (Level +2 or Level +3 enemy) is an effective spell. Spells that add +1 to hit or remove AC from the target are extremely effective due to how the math works.
I think this is what I'll try putting to the group a little bit, but as someone juggling everything else they are going to expect me to answer the question of what they should be doing and I just don't have a good answer. Also, stealing actions can be really tricky in terms of spells as most of them mean if the enemy is over double the spell level then they get one degree better what they rolls (i.e. incapacitation effect). I'm genuinely less trying to convince people spellcasters suck and more trying to work out how to make my spellcasters hate me a little less as their build is frustrating them due to misses.
think this is what I'll try putting to the group a little bit, but as someone juggling everything else they are going to expect me to answer the question of what they should be doing and I just don't have a good answer. Also, stealing actions can be really tricky in terms of spells as most of them mean if the enemy is over double the spell level then they get one degree better what they rolls (i.e. incapacitation effect). I'm genuinely less trying to convince people spellcasters suck and more trying to work out how to make my spellcasters hate me a little less as their build is frustrating them due to misses.
There are a lot of good spells that don't have Incapacitation, the most simple of which is Slow. Almost guaranteed to steal an action (works on a successful save), available to Bards, and stacks beautifully with Knockdown/AOO strategies employed by fighters.
Other amazing Bard spells include Phantasmal Killer (Damage, and a penalty to AC for his Fighter buddy), Clairvoyance (its really easier to just show them the entire map anyway if they have a day to scout), Shadow Blast (trigger weaknesses), and Synesthesia (absolutely phoenominal debuff even on a successful save, no incap tag). Also don't underestimate the first level fear, which is Frightened 1 even on a successful save and doesn't make them immune to (or care about) Demoralize. If not Fear, True Strike is amazing in first level slots. The psychic fireballs (mental damage aoes, or like spirit blast) aren't to be underestimated in a pinch either, and can lend the Bard a bit of a surprise punch.
I'm still figuring out Cleric, but as I noted my EC group needs a lot of healing love to stay on their feet, so I've got my hands full in many encounters managing that. Bless is boring but good (not with a Bard though), and Calm Emotions won an entire fight once in two actions! I think the Divine list is tough, because as a player I want to be impactful but its pretty low key. I think its actually pretty low key solid though.
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I've played a Druid to level 5 and a cleric to level 7 in PFS.
I'm currently running Age of Ashes with the characters at 11th level.
In my experience, spell casters are, when played well, about right.
They DO take more thought to play well than does a martial. They have to be more situationally aware, they need to know when to bring out their big guns and when to just use a cantrip.
And they definitely do less damage, on average, than a martial.
But they STILL have the "I bend reality to my will and just change the terms of the encounter" abilities. Oh, they're less powerful than PF1 and they happen a little less often but they still come up and they can absolutely just eliminate an encounter.
Its kind of :
Encounter 1 - Throw out some AoE spells, do reasonable damage
Encounter 2 - Need to conserve damage, throw some cantrips so at least I'm contributing. But I'm being significantly overshadowed.
Encounter 3 - as 1 but due to healing instead of AoE
Encounter 4 - as 2
Encounter 5 - I push a "We win" button. Or, at least, I push a "We win MUCH more easily than we otherwise would have" button
I just ran a session where the casters mean that the characters get to roll up the bad guys in the order THEY want, potentially avoiding several meat grinder battles. Its kinda subtle and the effect may not be obvious to the players. From the GMs side of the table I know they just made things MUCH easier on themselves.
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Clerics only really have one offense in their spell list unless you are fighting undead, fiends, or are evil and that is harm. What clerics do incredibly well is keep the rest of the party fighting at full strength. At level 9 you have breath of life, freedom of movement, deathward, heroism (meaningless with the right kind of bard), Air walk, Dispel magic, basically way more great spells than they are going to be able to cast in a day. On top of having to provide all the party emergency healing.
Against Demons and Devils, dimensional anchor can be a real lock down ability as well.
The real problem I have had with my cleric is remaining patient and not wasting my actions. I delay often. I'll take cover with a third action instead of attack. I have a god that gives me a long bow, so I'll occasionally take shots with it, but never more than 1 a turn, I also have an animal companion that I mostly use to ride round and move faster.
I just ran a session where the casters mean that the characters get to roll up the bad guys in the order THEY want, potentially avoiding several meat grinder battles. Its kinda subtle and the effect may not be obvious to the players. From the GMs side of the table I know they just made things MUCH easier on themselves.
Non-detailed, potentially minor AoA Spoilers (IE, no names or particulars, but technically could spoil something in theory, but maybe not) -
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Just going to go through some wordy context, I'll put an asterisk (*) if you want to skip the meat and potatoes of my concern and get to broad strokes.
So I'm currently GMing through Extinction Curse (don't worry, no spoilers) and I have a party which includes a Fighter, Champion (Redeemer), Bard (multiclass into Redeemer) and a Cleric (Cloisted). All level 9. We've hit Book 3 and, well, my party is a mix bag of moods. On the upshot, the Fighter is goading me to bring it on as though he's unstoppable and the Champion is having an okay time. The Bard and Cleric though, well, their moods are souring hard and fast.
It's a balance issue.
The fighter has this build where he uses trip A LOT and then attack-of-opportunity on the way up. It actually happens to an incredible frequency, and really made me aware no stat block features an immunity to such a thing (even beings without an anatomy to trip, like a Gelatinous Cube) nor a way to get up without provoking. It has led to this monstrous powerhouse of DPS as he'll just use Knockdown, Advantageous Assault then Attack of Opportunity on the way up, presenting two attacks a turn without MAP, getting rid of an action by the enemy and an extra attack for good-luck. This gets just immensely worse if he's managed to Tumble his way past the frontline and get to the spellcasters where he'll AOO any spellcasting and keep tripping, keeping the action economy to such a point where they can't really cast spells and move away, nor can they cast spells and keep concentrate spells rolling. That's even ignoring how critically hitting them will disrupt the spell, which their AC versus his attack chance makes it very likely. Improved Knockdown at next level will lower this Knockdown to a single action, so more straight attacks and I'm sure there'll be more ways to increase the power of this tactic.
The inverse is the Bard and Cleric, which putting aside limited spells per day does lead me to a conversation about attack rolls. Fighters are able to enchant their weapons to...
I'm going to list my experience with following classes:
1. Cleric: Not a good damage dealer. Not likely to be a good damage healer. They are hands down the best healer in the game. If you're not happy healing, while doing some damage with maybe a hit here and there or a damaging spell or an effect here and there, then you won't be happy with the cleric. They have no way to match a martial class for damage.2. Bard: Bard is the most powerful buffing and debuffing class in the game. Their compositions are untouchable. It's mostly what you do. I play a level 13 bard and I mostly harmonize with Inspire Defense and Inspire courage. I occasionally throw a phantasmal calamity or a shadow blast into the mix and can haste the group. The bard is not a premier damage dealer and will not match a martial in damage. They have too many other things they can do to match the other classes in damage.
3. Druid: Druid is the most well-rounded of the caster classes. You can do a lot of things. You have a very strong overall group effect. You can do a little bit of everything. You can have an animal companion. Your storm focus spells are good. You can heal. You're the caster jack of all trades. Your best way to play is to do a little damage through all your sources and heal or debuff. The overall effect of the druid makes them quite potent. You won't often match the single target damage of a martial, but you'll definitely have opportunities to blow up with powerful effects. If two or three enemies are present, you generally do well.
4. Wizards and Sorcerers: The sorcerer has more diversity in builds and less diversity in spells. Wizards and sorcerers are best when AoE damage beyond a couple of targets is available spread out ideally to hit or with action removal or condition spells that don't have the incapacitation effect. Spells with incapacitation are extremely limited and should be avoided as they will take up your higher level slots to kill enemies of relatively equal level.
Wizards and sorcerers don't have a 1 action of equivalent of compositions, animal companions, or a Divine Font providing higher level slot healing. Their armor class is one of the worst and their hit points low.
Getting a wizard or sorcerer to high level takes some patience. The payoff for that patience is a character not much better than a fighter who has fun from 1st to 20th.
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This is, as you've assumed, a very often brought up topic. Casters in second edition are much more of a support class than they used to be. If adding onto the fighters chance to hit or healing or controlling the flow of battle isn't something the players enjoy, they are a little out of luck.
Definitely agree on this. Casters are doing a pretty good job of making the party more effective in this edition but oftentimes they aren't doing things that are that fun for themselves.
As others have said sometimes they'll do an amazing job and buff the party and then debuff the enemy and then...the martials are even more amazing and can hit on their 2nd and possibly 3rd attacks even and the party crushes the bad guy but the caster feels like pure support and didn't get to do his own fun thing. It kind of makes the party balance feel worse.
Casters are better for Support and Control.
Don't try to build a caster exclusively around damage. PF2 added more hitpoints to everything, again. The old fireball doesn't stack up as well as it used to.
Still a spell that attracts a couple of critical failures is very satisfying.
The PF2 spell list is full of lemons. Be careful what you choose. Bide your time. Make sure you have a couple of reasonable cantrip options.
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Casters are better for Support and Control.
Don't try to build a caster exclusively around damage. PF2 added more hitpoints to everything, again. The old fireball doesn't stack up as well as it used to.
Still a spell that attracts a couple of critical failures is very satisfying.
The PF2 spell list is full of lemons. Be careful what you choose. Bide your time. Make sure you have a couple of reasonable cantrip options.
So...the entire school of evocation (sans exceptions like glitterdust) is just pointless now? That seems...wrong. The whole point of the evocation school is various forms of HP damage so any form of evocation specialist is never going to square up?
I’m sure about the rest of y’all, but that seems really...wrong.
And by that same coin, people who don’t necessarily want to be offensive rather than support just...shouldn’t be casters ever?
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Casters are better for Support and Control.
Don't try to build a caster exclusively around damage. PF2 added more hitpoints to everything, again. The old fireball doesn't stack up as well as it used to.
Still a spell that attracts a couple of critical failures is very satisfying.
The PF2 spell list is full of lemons. Be careful what you choose. Bide your time. Make sure you have a couple of reasonable cantrip options.
So...the entire school of evocation (sans exceptions like glitterdust) is just pointless now? That seems...wrong. The whole point of the evocation school is various forms of HP damage so any form of evocation specialist is never going to square up?
I’m sure about the rest of y’all, but that seems really...wrong.
And by that same coin, people who don’t necessarily want to be offensive rather than support just...shouldn’t be casters ever?
The entire school of evocation is a tool in the caster’s box. It’s useful for dealing with multiple on level or lower level enemies, but, with some exceptions (E.g. sudden bolt at level 3 and 4) is pretty bad against solo, higher level enemies due to being balanced around AoE damage.
The devs cannot and more importantly should not balance casters around the assumption that they only pick from a single school, because then when they choose to diversify (which they can do at any time) they will become broken.
For something to exist which would bring the damage of caster spells to where people want them to be, you’d have to take a hypothetical class archetype which severely restricts your ability to do anything but damage. Essentially making you a martial character, but with slots due to the fact that your damage is AoE.
An elemental Sorcerer is best suited to being a blaster caster as they have 2 good focus spells to support that (Elemental Toss and Elemental Blast), a good blood magic and dangerous Sorcery. That doesn’t make their spells that much better against solo bosses, but it does substantially up their effectiveness against boss with mooks or severe+ encounter comprised solely of mooks. Throwing out an elemental toss against the boss is still useful to chip away at its HP when you have an action to spare, but you should really be looking to the other parts of your list in solo boss encounters.
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The PF2e spell list is smaller than the 5e spell list was CRB to PHB.
It also includes DRASTICALLY less blaster spell options through the levels. And despite PF2e being so heavily focused on feats that enable, casters as a rule have very few options for impacting blasting spells relatively.
Now, this doesn't mean that casters are bad, or even bad at dealing damage. They just aren't competitive with the top tier damage dealers when it comes to single target or optimised combos.
I would expect this to change going forwards as we get more options.
But yeah, fighters don't have squat options wise when it comes to building for support compared to a bard or cleric. And they need to invest if they want to be as effective vs AoE as a caster with AoE spells.
Paizo has to be careful with how they approach casters and damage imo, which is why I believe they have been a bit shy on it in the CRB. It would be dangerous for them to do otherwise considering how flexible casters remain.
Oh and another thing, something that I have seen helped casters gain a bit of reliable use damage wise. It won't help the actual damage so much, but it will help keep them from having to rely on cantrips.
Finally, a GM needs to give something for all players to be good at. If a GM makes the fighter the best answer to every conflict then the fighter will be the best answer.
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Casters are better for Support and Control.
Don't try to build a caster exclusively around damage. PF2 added more hitpoints to everything, again. The old fireball doesn't stack up as well as it used to.
Still a spell that attracts a couple of critical failures is very satisfying.
The PF2 spell list is full of lemons. Be careful what you choose. Bide your time. Make sure you have a couple of reasonable cantrip options.
So...the entire school of evocation (sans exceptions like glitterdust) is just pointless now? That seems...wrong. The whole point of the evocation school is various forms of HP damage so any form of evocation specialist is never going to square up?
I’m sure about the rest of y’all, but that seems really...wrong.
And by that same coin, people who don’t necessarily want to be offensive rather than support just...shouldn’t be casters ever?
Chain Lightning and Phantasmal Calamity can be pretty good depending on how well a group is distributed and how well they save. The whole thing with casters is they have limited resources, no way too boost spell DCs, monster saves are much higher than they were before, and hit points are higher, so things have to line up nicely to make you feel like you did a powerful damage hit. Those fights are pretty rare, especially against the most important enemies.
I personally think they need to design single target damage spells that hit super hard so a caster can feel like they strongly contribute against single enemies given they use 2 actions instead of 1 to launch a spell, whereas a martial can use a single action to do crazy damage against a creature while flanked, debuffed, and the like.
Our ranger picked up a Greater Elven Cloak and can use greater invisibility two times per day. This means any creature he hits gets -2 AC for all his attacks for a minute, while using a greater striking bow with a fire rune with precision damage. It leads to quite potent crits in the 60 to 80 range.
Flanking doesn't reduce saving throws. It's hard to apply a circumstance reduction to saves, while easy to apply a circumstance reduction to armor class. There are no item bonuses for casters to hit, but plenty of item bonuses for martials to hit. So the main debuff that can be applied to a save DC is a status penalty from fear or sickened.
So you basically have spell attack rolls that lag due to a lack of an item bonus. You have spell DCs save DCs that often lag AC due to the ability to stack multiple debuffs on AC including flanking. And martials tend to get increased weapon proficiency faster than casters.
So basically you're going to have up to a 5 combined item and circumstance bonus to hit lower as a caster on top of better proficiency earlier for a caster to hit spell and save DCs depend on the spell and creature on top of various resistances.
The math for the battle caster is quite bad when it comes to dealing damage single target or small group damage even if you try to deal damage. You have a very narrow window to build as a caster, whereas the martial window for helping has expanded.
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I was pretty sure the was a thread a while back, with charts and graphs and everything, that demonstrated average caster dps (while targeting the correct save) was on par with martials for single targets.
It just doesn't seem like it because so much of their damage is on die results that "only" deal half damage, and its contingent on them using their best spells.
As soon as a second target was involved, they were unquestionably The Best.
That doesn't sound like Evocation is dead to me, it sounds like its "adequately balanced by being limited by spell slots". It was also good evidence that there isnt a lot of room for blasting to be any better than it is without it making casters flat superior in that niche (since then, they'll be on par with martials on their inferior spells as well).
If anyone has a link...
My current theory is that casters aren't "behind the curve" at all, but instead what is happening is that people are perceiving their being relatively similar in power to non-casters as them being behind.
To phrase that differently, people are expecting to see all the different stuff a class can do rated from 1-10 and casters be 10 in every category they can do - so now that they have ratings more along the lines of being a little higher in this, a little lower in that, and maybe having a category or two of things a non-caster can't do (the literal picture of balance) it feels like an over-correction.
I agree with what you've said here, and based on what I've seen I like where casters are, with the exception that they could probably use a bonus on the spell attack rolls similar to what weapon users gets, just to make those spells a bit more reliable.
Heck a wand or staff that helps them to aim seems very reasonable. As it sits I complain about my martial character's ability to hit, but I'm getting the weapon bonus to hit, while the caster is over there, probably not having max ability score bonus in dex (because it's in their casting stat), and struggling to hit the same AC I am.
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The staff of divination is the item to help spell attack rolls.
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One thing I have noted in all this threads is that there seems to be an disparity in assistance levels in between casters and martials, which I think is part of the reason why casters might feel bad and relegated to a support role.
When targeting AC most martials as well as most casters have a multiude of ways of improving chances to hit or lowering the enemy defenses. So if the enemy is grabbed or prone (flat-footed), frightened by a Fear spell and your party is under the effect of Bless it all adds up neatly. Teamwork, right?
However when targeting saves the only decent low level and readily available debuff is Frightened, and while martials can apply the debuff via Demoralize the duration is rather short. Which means that martials may have a hard time assisting casters that do not use spells aimed at AC. So while you can easily shift AC in the range of 4 to 8 (while not considering any Aid actions), the best thing you can do versus saves is 1 to 3.
For example take an Adult Black Dragon, level 11, AC31 and worst save is +18. Any non-figher level 11 martial has an attack bonus of around +22 (11 lev + 4 prof +5 attr +2 rune). The DC for a level 11 caster should be 30 (11 lev + 4 prof + 5 attr). This means that the martial will hit on 9+ (60% chance), while the caster will have his spell come to full effect on 11- (55% chance).
Now consider the enemy being flat-footed (-2 AC), the martial being subject to heroism or a similar status effect (+2 to hit) and the enemy suffering for fear (-1 AC and DC's). The to-hit number for the martial comes down to 4+ (85% chance) whereas the chance to land the spell has only improved marginally to 12- (60% chance). In addition even if the martial misses the first attack he still has an at least 60% chance to hit with the second attack, which still is the same as the casters original success chance.
If you add this all up this means that martials have an easier time to achieve "success" (I am not talking about effectiveness here, but about psychology) because manipulating AC & to-hit is easier than to manipulate DC & saves, because 2nd or 3rd attacks can still connect using said manipulation versus casters 1 spell = 1 chance per round, because martials do have action enhancing or numbers manipulating feats (a Fighters double slice for the above scenario would be 2+/2+) and because the synergy in between martials and casters is not benefitting them equally. And for many players it does not help that the failure effect of many spells comes with a comforting plaster, even if it is as strong as Slow's.
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I was pretty sure the was a thread a while back, with charts and graphs and everything, that demonstrated average caster dps (while targeting the correct save) was on par with martials for single targets.
It just doesn't seem like it because so much of their damage is on die results that "only" deal half damage, and its contingent on them using their best spells.
As soon as a second target was involved, they were unquestionably The Best.
That doesn't sound like Evocation is dead to me, it sounds like its "adequately balanced by being limited by spell slots". It was also good evidence that there isnt a lot of room for blasting to be any better than it is without it making casters flat superior in that niche (since then, they'll be on par with martials on their inferior spells as well).
If anyone has a link...
I'd enjoy seeing this as long as it includes real combat scenarios with flanking, debuffs, buffs, and all abilities martials have used. If it's some scaling white room simulation based on class abilities absent magic items or optimization, then not so useful.
The main fights that matter are fights against BBEGs. If you're not able to do substantial hits against a BBEG with your highest level spell slots, it kind of sucks.
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Every fight matters. If it didn't matter, you wouldn't be doing it (that or it "matters" in that you're letting the PCs tear some extremely low level mooks apart to feel good).
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Goblin pox gives sickened 1 on a successful save, which is often better than frightened, as it costs the enemy an action or it sticks around indefinitely.
Against very difficult to hit monsters, arcane and occult casters also have the most reliable damage option in the game with magic missile.
Bemoaning the death of evocation spells is a pretty strong over reaction. There were plenty of people who were disappointed with direct damage spells in PF1, as they were the less strong option for casters to take when casters could win entire encounters with 80 to 90% success rates with spells like domination, etc.
Casters are definitely experiencing a big shift from past D&D games because they don't have the single character 1 turn win options against higher level solo monsters that they have had in the past. And that is a very very good thing for the game because it means solo monsters are meaningful again.
Against equal level opposition, like a level 11 party against level 11 adult dragons, you can be using incapacitation spells at your highest level spell slot to have around 50% odds to take the dragon out with one spell. No martial comes close to those odds against a single target opponent.
IF the party was facing 3 such dragons (sever encounter), and the cleric got off a well placed or widened clam emotions off in the first round, that is 5% chance that each dragon cannot attack, even when attacked first, 40% chance that each dragon cannot attack until provoked, and a 45 % chance that each dragon has a -1 to attacks for a full minute. and only a 10% of having no affect, against each dragon. That is incredibly powerful.
Edit: I was going to fix Calm emotions, but now I want a spell called clam emotions.
As a point of order, casters do use their casting stat for spell attacks. But compared to martials, they are behind on weapon bonuses, as well as proficiency bonuses at certain levels (5-6, 13-14).
You're right, sorry I still get PF1 and PF2 stuff mixed up in my head.
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I wonder if there are not a lot of casters running around, refusing to have any incapacitation spells memorized in their highest level slots that are finding themselves feeling useless in fights against 2 or 3 equal level opposition.
I get why. At low levels, it is not uncommon to fight 2 enemies that are higher level than your incapacitation spells can effect, or 1 enemy that is higher level alongside 3 or 4 equal level, so you assume that would stay true at higher levels, but it really doesn't. Then you see everyone on these boards say incapacitation spells are useless.
But if you look at the encounter that Ubertron_X, the 11th level black dragons, if you make it a sever encounter (so 3 equal level enemies), and put it in a challenging environment, that is a really challenging encounter for a party of martial characters, especially if they lack good ranged options, it could easily end up as a TPK. If the casters don't take support spells to help the martials get to the dragons, they might very well be useless.
This is the situation that is really giving casters a bad wrap. Casters are expected to carry martial characters in any situation where mobility or the environment is going to be an issue, but doing so isn't considered "fun" by the players. I get why, the alchemist is frustrating for the same reason: Every contribution they have to give feels better when it is given to a different character than when used by the alchemist. But the party without that support is going to get themselves killed sooner than later, i.e 3 equal level dragons in the open are going to murder a party of martial characters.
Encounters in PF2 are more challenging than PF1, because a whole lot more is riding on party tactics. Traditional tactics of "mob the monster and try to hit it as much as possible as quickly as possible" can seriously backfire against solo higher level monsters. The easiest way to make that strategy kinda work is to have 2 casters dedicated to keeping the 2 martial characters alive and buffed as much as possible. It can get most parties through most encounters. It is also receiving a lot of push back from the caster players who's job becomes "keep the martials alive and hitting as hard as possible." It is not the only viable team strategy to winning.
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I was pretty sure the was a thread a while back, with charts and graphs and everything, that demonstrated average caster dps (while targeting the correct save) was on par with martials for single targets.
It just doesn't seem like it because so much of their damage is on die results that "only" deal half damage, and its contingent on them using their best spells.
As soon as a second target was involved, they were unquestionably The Best.
That doesn't sound like Evocation is dead to me, it sounds like its "adequately balanced by being limited by spell slots". It was also good evidence that there isnt a lot of room for blasting to be any better than it is without it making casters flat superior in that niche (since then, they'll be on par with martials on their inferior spells as well).
If anyone has a link...
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Clerics only really have one offense in their spell list unless you are fighting undead, fiends, or are evil and that is harm. What clerics do incredibly well is keep the rest of the party fighting at full strength. At level 9 you have breath of life, freedom of movement, deathward, heroism (meaningless with the right kind of bard), Air walk, Dispel magic, basically way more great spells than they are going to be able to cast in a day. On top of having to provide all the party emergency healing.
Against Demons and Devils, dimensional anchor can be a real lock down ability as well.
As the party is fighting a lot of evil people including fiends, they are theoretically able to deal tasty levels of damage. The reality is the cleric just keeps missing and getting more and more angry about it. Telling them "well, you know, you are important because you can heal" is, while true, still kind of unsatisfying for them. I suspect it's down to a feeling of "stealing the thunder" by the fighter (which I'll try to get to in a bit to respond to someone else's comment) as well as just missing over and over. Someone in my group did point out they can fireball as a Sarenrae worshipper, so things could get interesting soon.
I'm still figuring out Cleric, but as I noted my EC group needs a lot of healing love to stay on their feet, so I've got my hands full in many encounters managing that. Bless is boring but good (not with a Bard though), and Calm Emotions won an entire fight once in two actions! I think the Divine list is tough, because as a player I want to be impactful but its pretty low key.
The cleric definitely helps the fighter do some just insanely ballsy moves via dispelling effects and keeping them healed. I think certain gods give excellent spells with a lot of DPS feedback (e.g. fireball for Sarenrae worshippers), and I think that's what they're looking for.
It may sound silly but as someone who enjoys being the support,in real life, rpgs and video games, a way to help your casters feel better about their role is to actually have a word with your martials.
I did hint at this before to the fighter, but it might help to just remind again that they only got away with what they did because the cleric kept them standing. Like not so much "just be quiet with your glee" and more just "can you thank your casters?".
Finally, a GM needs to give something for all players to be good at. If a GM makes the fighter the best answer to every conflict then the fighter will be the best answer.
Yeah, unfortunately as forewarned in the original post, I am pre-genning through Extinction Curse. I can set up scenarios like things being out-of-reach of the fighter, but I can't really create entire fights with certain classes in mind.
If you add this all up this means that martials have an easier time to achieve "success" (I am not talking about effectiveness here, but about psychology)
This is kind of what I'm facing more than anything else. It isn't I think spellcasters are outright worse, but rather they feel worse for the players who constantly use two actions and keep missing versus the fighter who just simply has a higher chance-to-hit due to things like item bonuses. Also, while people are saying True Strike/Staff of Divination is just an excellent way to off-set this, it's an Occult/Arcane spell and the staff requires the spells to be on your repertoire to be able to use the staff. So, the Cleric is still kind of buggered.
Casters are expected to carry martial characters in any situation where mobility or the environment is going to be an issue, but doing so isn't considered "fun" by the players.
I think you kind of hit the nail on the head, and it's really starting to make me reexamine my approach to the situation, or at least confirm one or two possible way forwards. After all, if the player isn't enjoying healing and presenting aid to others who are getting that immediate feedback of damage, then clerics are kind of really unsatisfying to that player.
I did actually go back to my players a bit to rejig my approach. The current gameplan that might be done is the Fighter is already rerolling as a wizard/sorcerer, the Bard is rejigging their spell list to compensate for the potential for nasty rolls and I might talk to the Cleric about rerolling into something more martial and more...Immediate in payoff like maybe a Barbarian (although they're tempted to run with Ranger, which considering they seem to really adore animals in the game might be a really nice idea for a campaign stuffed with dinosaurs to "adopt", so that might be their positive feedback).
Genuinely, thanks for all the posts so far, it's been a lot to think on.
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In my party for age of ashes, we started off with a wizard, a sorcerer, a cleric and a barbarian. The barbarian decided to go two handed weapon and could really unleash a lot of damage...and end up on the floor by the second round of combat unless my cleric just camped on top of them casting 2 action heal every round. I was a harm cleric, and so it pretty much meant that I had to memorize all heal spells and then just unleash one nova a day when an enemy tried to rush me with 3 1 action harm spells.
The wizard player didn't work with our time slot very well, so we lost the wizard and picked up a newer Pathfinder player who built a rogue. The barbarian gave up the 2 handed weapon and picked up a shield, we adjusted my cleric (after Gods and Magic came out) to pick a different deity that provided the necessary domain for the flavor of the character and I got the heal font. We managed to stay alive a lot better, but my character still ended up being a heal bot 50 to 75% of all encounters, but atleast I got a bow and a companion (MCing into animal trainer has been so much fun. Getting constant speak with animals at 4th level has been incredibly fun and very useful. In PF 2, there is no "vermin" category so insects, worms and spiders are all animals but that is a side track.) so I usually have something interesting to do with my 3rd action, but a cleric in a party of melee martial characters is going to be healing most of the time in most encounters. If you don't have a ranged weapon, then you almost want to be able to cast a sustain spell with your first turn, so then you have something interesting to do with your 3rd action for the rest of the fight. Summons can be fun in that context, although at least half the time, you are just taking up an action or two from your enemies as they smash your summons. Which is a good thing, but it doesn't feel amazing in play.
The Barbarian died in a particularly notorious encounter that we went into without resting, so I was out of healing options, and the player is coming back as a paladin that might ease up some of my healing burdens, but...
We just lost the sorcerer, Real life time conflicts, so I have no idea what character will step in, but it is very possible we will end up with another martial character (the new player is another player new to Pathfinder and pathfinder 2, so expecting them to carry the weight of a dedicated caster is a bit much) and then I am probably going to have to make sure that another character stays on their feet. Luckily, between being able to talk to animals all the time, and that my new god has the healing font, so I can take all the good support spells and still heal, I know what I am getting into and can enjoy the role I have for my character. Helping new players feel like the heroes of the campaign is a perfectly fun role to play.
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Again, sharing recognition of achievement around the table is going to help your games out. Highlighting a "That attack is a critical hit because of the bless spell" or a "That positive energy damage from Disrupting Weapons is really doing a number on these guys" can really provide a sense of accomplishment to characters who are supporting in that capacity.Good luck!
This point is a good one, and imo should be expanded to cover some aspects of monster design that arent apparent to those who only play.
"Id love to use this creatures signature ability, but it costs 2 actions and I needed to move to set it up - which isn't happening since you Slowed me."
"Man, an AOO sure would be nice right now.
I have this really cool special reaction, with extra effects! " As the party is moving into flanking positions with impunity. "Sure would be nice if that spell hadn't stolen all my reactions."
"Argh, ANOTHER miss on my best attack due to concealment? That's four tonight!"
It sounds like grumbling, but more importantly its also "tactile" feedback to be sure your players know how much delightful frustration they're causing you.
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@Riobux
Playing as a Warpriest of Sarenrae in our group I really do understand your Cleric's frustration. In the beginning I tried to Divine Lance the frak out of every single baddie but horribly failed because I was endlessly missing (neither is our group good at buffing or debuffing nor did I start with 18 WIS), which was in stark contrast to the usual "just exploit the bad guys weakness to good" yada yada you will usually hear in the forum (theorycraft and reality colliding hard). With a wink of the eye the spell was soon renamed to "Divine Miss" by my party.
However when we rolled characters I deliberately chose the mantle of leader/healer, and going by the credo "None shall fall as long as I stand!" I have been the bane of our GM ever since, who sometimes is really frustated about how long I can keep the group going seemingly no matter how much damage he is dealing or what kinds of conditions are troubling us. And this is what "earned" my character the respect of my fellow players characters, not how much damage I am able to deal on my own. More often then not I find myself in a position when my turn comes up and a severely wounded and out of positon martial is looking for help that I can boldly say (and with a smirk): "Reach Spell, 2-action Heal, that's +40HP for you, peasant. Now go back to work and whack things properly!" They just know that I will have their back whenever possible and are most grateful that they can try all sorts of shenanigans because of it.
On the other hand and while specifically talking about Clerics of Sarenrae you will find offensive spells and options like no other. Once I picked up Dazzling Flash and Fire Ray I had access to easy to use and "fire and forget" once per encounter combat spells and when push comes to shove I can even use those twice in any single encounter. After reaching 5th level I got access to Fireball and picked up Electric Arc via Human ancestry, gaining access to a magificent AE spell as well as a really good offensive cantrip (the biggest problem with Divine Lance apart from having to hit is its alignment dependency). What I have changed however is my targeting routine, insomuch that I usually wait until enemy AC's are known *and/or* beneficial circumstances allow me to hit on 11+ or better. Astonishingly enough I managed to hit most of my Fire Rays where Divine Lance once failed, simply by a more conservative and careful target selection.
In between all buffing, debuffing or healing I seldomly get to take offensive action, however when I do, e.g. I rolled high for initiative and can start the battle with a carefully placed Fireball, all I can see is nods of approval (or the occasional "is there anything our cleric can't do?" remark).
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Again, sharing recognition of achievement around the table is going to help your games out. Highlighting a "That attack is a critical hit because of the bless spell" or a "That positive energy damage from Disrupting Weapons is really doing a number on these guys" can really provide a sense of accomplishment to characters who are supporting in that capacity.
This is important. Whenever our Bard's songs help us finish an enemy or avoid a dangerous attack, we hype her all to hell.
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Long post about play experience.
@Ubertron X, I really appreciate how you have been continuing to post about your play experience and how it is grown. It sounds like you have started to find a place where your character is performing up to your expectations for it, and that is awesome.
I cannot reiterate your point enough about changing your targeting routine and not rushing your big spells until you get some kind of advantage, or it is exactly the right spell for the situation. Like Fireball if you get the drop on bunched up opponents is often going to be worth it and show stopping, while casting that same spell at the bottom of the initiative order probably isn't, unless the enemy bunches up in a strong defensive position, even when your save DC might be below expected.
But if you look at the encounter that Ubertron_X, the 11th level black dragons, if you make it a sever encounter (so 3 equal level enemies), and put it in a challenging environment, that is a really challenging encounter for a party of martial characters, especially if they lack good ranged options, it could easily end up as a TPK. If the casters don't take support spells to help the martials get to the dragons, they might very well be useless.
This is the situation that is really giving casters a bad wrap. Casters are expected to carry martial characters in any situation where mobility or the environment is going to be an issue, but doing so isn't considered "fun" by the players.
Another type of fights to consider are fights against flying enemies with access to Dispel Magic (Nalfeshnee for example). In these kind of fights, martials don't have the choice of melee and casters (and archers) are expected to shine.
Casters can't solve all kind of mobility issues martials may encounter.
In my experience, casting a fireball early can be extremely effective too. If you're hitting 2 enemies, you're getting pretty good bang for your buck after all, and that kind of thing can really turn a battle around by thinning out the enemy forces before they get a chance to retaliate.