Should Kineticist be renamed if it's brought back to 2e? Sounds too sci-fi

[Donald]

Godai means the five elements in Japanese, Wuxing in Chinese. Maybe a variation on one of those?

Or did they pick kineticist to avoid real world religion links?

[Squiggit]

I feel like the problem with "Elementalist" is that it right out the gate locks you into an elemental theme, something that a number of PF1 Kineticist options don't really connect to. There's nothing particularly 'elementalist' about picking up objects to throw at people with telekinesis, or manipulating gravity or even animating trees.

"Bender" just connects to a single IP, it's very derivative and doesn't make much sense at all if you aren't familiar with that material.

"Shaper" is a bit better, but again I don't really think evokes the whole breadth of the class very well. A shaper sounds like someone who's making something out of something else. I'd expect a shaper to be making golems or something before I'd expect them to be shooting beams of negative energy or flying on jets of flame.

"Binder" has edition baggage from the 3.5 class, but beyond that I'm not sure it really cleanly expresses the class either. Especially when magical 'binding' in Pathfinder is generally used in the sense of planar binding, which the Kineticist doesn't really connect to at all.

"Kineticist" also gives you a coherent naming theme across the different paths, pyrokineticist, aerokineticist, telekineticist, etc. which ties everything together in a way I think is neat.

I don't think it's the best name ever, but this thread does a good job showing why it works, because most of the alternative suggestions have a lot of issues.

[Decimus Drake]

I wonder if those who dislike the "modern" sound of kineticist are a suffering from some form of the Tiffany problem?

[PossibleCabbage]

Yeah, in addition to the classical four elements in PF1 we had kineticists for wood, void, and aether. There's no reason there can't be even more kinds of kineticist in PF2. Like a shadow kineticist or a time kineticist or a dreams kineticist or something.

Decimus Drake wrote:

I wonder if those who dislike the "modern" sound of kineticist are a suffering from some form of the Tiffany problem?

Kind Herod's wife was named "Doris"- true fact.

[devilbunny]

Decimus Drake wrote:

I wonder if those who dislike the "modern" sound of kineticist are a suffering from some form of the Tiffany problem?

I do agree here, which is the issue - connotation. While Tiffany may have been common in classical Greece, if you ask most people it would still sound too "modern" despite having a much longer history. Perception skews it in a certain direction, and I don't think I've ever introduced a new player to the Pathfinder class roster and they were immediately piqued by kineticist despite how awesome the class is both in concept and design.

There's a distinct lack of some je ne sais quoi quality that the name does not possess, regardless of its etymology. I literally asked my girlfriend and her friends (none of whom play tabletop RPGs) right now which classes they would be interested in playing, if they were to play a game, from a list of the core classes and the occult classes from 1e. Kineticist ranked near the bottom in interest, and when I asked why, I was told they didn't know what that was in the scope of a fantasy context. I explained it as, "Think benders from Avatar," and immediately that sold a lot of them on the class with quite a few saying that might be the first thing they tried if they played (perhaps due to Avatar streaming on Netflix right now).

[Salamileg]

Since the game already has three spells with the word "kinetic" in the game (the three Telekinetic spells)and they don't feel out of place the name Kineticist is fine.

[devilbunny]

Salamileg wrote:

Since the game already has three spells with the word "kinetic" in the game (the three Telekinetic spells)and they don't feel out of place the name Kineticist is fine.

Spell name design is a little different than class name design. Spells are supposed to be plain and descriptive so they're easy to remember and reference. Fireball is a rather pedestrian name, and easy to visualize what it does. Same with something like Telekinetic Projectile. If fireball had been named like Infernal Flowering Crimson of Death or whatever, obviously it's a cooler name but it wouldn't parse its function simplistically. And I'd assume we were probably playing a wuxia game instead. Class names should be more evocative and distilled with flavor - brimming with ideas. At the very least so that new players can have something to work with as a source of inspiration, and have an idea of what the class does.

The design team recently mentioned on stream during PaizoCon that it took them to the last second to settle on Desecrator for the new NE Champion, and they went back and forth on a lot of names because they wanted something that would fit the essence of the cause. Lyz Liddell also mentioned how much more important names and naming in general was to the game design team than she thought it was, something she was unaware of until she transitioned from her old role to her current role. It rings especially true since they renamed the Paladin class to Champion since they believed it was more fitting, and the Paladin class has much older roots than Kineticist.

[PossibleCabbage]

But if telekinesis is a thing that's fine in the diagesis, what would you call someone who just does lots and lots of telekinesis?

And if Telekinesis is fine, why isn't Pyrokinesis, Aerokinesis, Geokinesis, etc.? What grouping term would you use for all these [Foo]kinesis users

[devilbunny]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

But if telekinesis is a thing that's fine in the diagesis, what would you call someone who just does lots and lots of telekinesis?

And if Telekinesis is fine, why isn't Pyrokinesis, Aerokinesis, Geokinesis, etc.? What grouping term would you use for all these [Foo]kinesis users

It's fine from the context of a spell that is meant for players and the GM to wrap their heads around. It's a unified term so that out of game everyone can recognize it as what it is. I doubt within the world of the game, everyone calls it fireball just due to the nature of simultaneous invention and lack of mass global communication. Probably hundreds of wizards from varying cultures have 'invented' their own fireball in their respective regions forever ago and call it each by a different name. It's why in older editions of D&D you have spells called like Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. A more ubiquitous spell would likely have multiple people claim it, so fireball is just an easy name to reference a spell some wizards call Exploding Pyreflame or Miniaturized Forbidden Sun depending on where you are.

So who knows? There may be no single spell within Golarion called Telekinetic Projectile, but there are quite a few that have the exact function despite different names. To make that not a nightmare for people who play this game, we are given the umbrella term for the spell - Telekinetic Projectile.

And wizards love naming things especially if they believe they're the ones responsible for it. It's just the academic nature of their field and need to be recognized for their accomplishments, a trait many of them share. Look at a wizard's thesis - they have very particular names that are long-winded despite most wizards all having the same arcane thesis like spell blending or metamagical experimentation. Within the world, they're each instead given names like Principia Arcana or On the Methods of Spell Interpolation and the Genesis of a New Understanding of the Building Blocks of Magic.

[Gorbacz]

So, maybe nobody on Golarion calls Kineticist Kineticist and it's just a meta umbrella name for us gamers?

[Brew Bird]

devilbunny wrote:

Decimus Drake wrote:

I wonder if those who dislike the "modern" sound of kineticist are a suffering from some form of the Tiffany problem?

There's a distinct lack of some je ne sais quoi quality that the name does not possess, regardless of its etymology. I literally asked my girlfriend and her friends (none of whom play tabletop RPGs) right now which classes they would be interested in playing, if they were to play a game, from a list of the core classes and the occult classes from 1e. Kineticist ranked near the bottom...

I had no qualms with the kineticist's name going into this thread, but this is a good point. Most classes have a name that clearly suggests the fantasy archetype they emulate. Branding is important, especially when you're selling your game to new players. Perhaps the Kineticist would be better served by a name that better explains the fantasy. "Elementalist", maybe?

[Temperans]

Elementalist does not quite convey what Kineticists are about.

A Kineticist does a lot more than just control the elements, which is usually limited to: Fire, Water, Air, Earth. A Kineticist works with planar energy.

So while an elementalist stops at manipulating the 4 elemental planes.

A Kineticist is manipulating, the Positive, Negative, Ethereal, and First World (Wood). There is even an archetype that basically implies they can control radiation.

[captain yesterday]

I'm going to say no they shouldn't be renamed, as they have waaay to much name recognition at this point.

Personally, I love Kineticist, it just sounds cool.

[Temperans]

Agreed Captain Yesterday.

[QuidEst]

I'd definitely prefer to keep "kineticist" around. I'm used to it, and "elementalist" just feels too bland; I'd be a lot less interested in the class if it really were just the four classical Western elements.

[Lucas Yew]

Nope on changing the name, as I'm just fine with it.

I just want burn to be gone if possible, as I see it as a tedious penalty for "daring to" use Constitution as the class' main offensive stat. Seriously, CON even does nothing for skills outside of combat, and don't even mention in the olden times HP attrition could be skipped easily by other means of threat negation...

[Keirine, Human Rogue]

Didn't Legendary say that they built a Kineticist for the Kingmaker AP 2e that they are doing? I mean, if they are working in conjunction with Paizo on that, it would make sense that we could be getting a kineticist from there.

[Rysky]

Maybe a Kineticist NPC, we're definitely not getting a Class in that book, it would have been a big selling point.

[James Jacobs]

There are no current plans to do a 2e kineticist class. We will have a kineticist NPC as part of the Kingmaker Companion Guide, but they wont have any options to let you build a player kineticist since theses NPCs will be built using the monster rules rather than the PC rules.

[Snes]

This may sound a bit silly, but how about "blaster" as a new name for the class?

[Reziburno25]

Would Geomancer, Hydromancer and Aeromancer parts of kineticist only do bludgeon damage or would they do acid, cold and electric cause seem weird to have only Pyromancer and Aethermancer deal unique damage.

[Gorbacz]

Snes wrote:

This may sound a bit silly, but how about "blaster" as a new name for the class?

If the class will be able to eject tape cassettes that transform into little construct warriors, sure.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Nobody thought about renaming them to Channelers? Kineticists are all about manipulating and exerting planar energies, which requires focus and inner fortitude (AKA the whole Constitution-based scaling and Burn mechanics from PF1). Being named Channelers is neither wrong nor immersion-breaking, and is open enough to encompass all kinds of Kineticist branches.

[Ravingdork]

It might step on the toes of those who channel spirits and the like, but spirit channelers have all sorts of names we could use.

I like channeler for the kineticist.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Who's to say that maybe one of the eventual Channeler paths involves the Ethereal Plane, dealing with ghosts, spirits, and so on? Ethermancers can certainly be a thing.

[PossibleCabbage]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Who's to say that maybe one of the eventual Channeler paths involves the Ethereal Plane, dealing with ghosts, spirits, and so on? Ethermancers can certainly be a thing.

The telekineticist is already the ethereal one. That it deals with "strands of aether" more than less tangible things suggests the Kineticist isn't supposed to be a "channel anything at all you can find on plane". For ghosts, spirits, etc. the Spiritualist or the Medium are better choices.

I still maintain if you can have telekinesis, you can have pyrokinesis, hydrokinesis, geokinesis, aerokinesis, etc. and if you can have those then the best term is "kineticist" as "a person whose bread and butter is their skill in *-kinesis."

[devilbunny]

Temperans wrote:

Elementalist does not quite convey what Kineticists are about.

A Kineticist does a lot more than just control the elements, which is usually limited to: Fire, Water, Air, Earth. A Kineticist works with planar energy.

So while an elementalist stops at manipulating the 4 elemental planes.

A Kineticist is manipulating, the Positive, Negative, Ethereal, and First World (Wood). There is even an archetype that basically implies they can control radiation.

Like elementalism, nothing about the word kinetics suggests the manipulation of planar energy. It's the mechanism by which a physical or chemical change is effected. Which makes sense if we're just talking about manipulation of the classical elements. Or from a scientific standpoint. But I think it's valid that control over metaphysical quantities also exists a bit outside of its scope/purview.

[generaltwig]

I don't have a problem with "Elementalist" initially evoking the 4 classic elements. When you dig into the class and realize - wow, there are all these other cool 'elements' to choose - shadow, aether, wood etc. We're already sort of familiar with strange elements in elementals beyond the Big Four. It's taking the familiar and expanding on the depth of the concept. Makes me think of China Mieville's Bas Lag novel "Iron Council" which has golem makers who make the creatures out of traditional elements and matter but later create beings out of light and shadow and other more conceptual elements which is awesome.

[Set]

Lanathar wrote:

Primalist ? Given it will be the source ?

(Especially if Arcanist and Occultist remain things)

I am not saying it needs changing but it could be changed to that...?

Yeah, Primalist or Essentialist, perhaps.

It is kinda funny how our fantasy chocolate has so much sci-fi peanut butter swirled into it, like wizards teleporting (a word that wasn't invented until the 50s, and is sci-fi as all get out), and magical 'black holes' that devour stuff, and all sorts of other stuff that's just thought of as 'magic' and yet has nothing to do with old folklore magic and far more to do with modern psi concepts like telekinesis and clairvoyance.

I also love how the kineticist has not just the traditional four western elements of air, earth, fire and water, but the Japanese fifth element of void, and the Chinese element of wood (and metal? I don't recall if they included that one...).

I'd love to see Wood and Metal (and perhaps Void) mephits, elementals and genies, for that matter. Have the planes critters not be so relentlessly western-paradigm-exclusive.

[Squiggit]

Set wrote:

It is kinda funny how our fantasy chocolate has so much sci-fi peanut butter swirled into it

I mean, even the distinction between the two itself is kind of a modern invention.

[Temperans]

Set wrote:

It is kinda funny how our fantasy chocolate has so much sci-fi peanut butter swirled into it, like wizards teleporting (a word that wasn't invented until the 50s, and is sci-fi as all get out), and magical 'black holes' that devour stuff, and all sorts of other stuff that's just thought of as 'magic' and yet has nothing to do with old folklore magic and far more to do with modern psi concepts like telekinesis and clairvoyance.

I also love how the kineticist has not just the traditional four western elements of air, earth, fire and water, but the Japanese fifth element of void, and the Chinese element of wood (and metal? I don't recall if they included that one...).

I'd love to see Wood and Metal (and perhaps Void) mephits, elementals and genies, for that matter. Have the planes critters not be so relentlessly western-paradigm-exclusive.

Agreed.

Also metal is part of the Earth Element. Electricity is part of Air. Ice is part of water. Positive is part of Wood. Negative is part of Void.

Overall each element (except Fire and Aether) has two types.

[ExOichoThrow]

I strongly believe that Kineticist is a terrible name for anyone new coming In to pathfinder 2.

I asked some friends what they thought a kineticist would do. One said it would be like an adept from mass effect. One said they would study the magic of movement and have buffing spells. One said that either of those two could be right and they had no other ideas.

At no point did any of them think "ahh, kineticist, that thing that can manipulate the elements"

Class names should immediately give people an idea of what they do.

[Snes]

On a related note, we really need to find a new name for the occultist now that "occult" has a specific in-game meaning.

[QuidEst]

Snes wrote:

On a related note, we really need to find a new name for the occultist now that "occult" has a specific in-game meaning.

To the same extent that Arcanist shouldn't be a class name, I think. Which is to say, it'd be less confusing to pick something else, but it's still going to be fine if they don't.

[shepsquared]

IMO kinteticist is a bad name because it makes me expect someone who's constantly using telekinesis to throw things at people, not throw elemental energy blasts around.

[thenobledrake]

shepsquared wrote:

IMO kinteticist is a bad name because it makes me expect someone who's constantly using telekinesis to throw things at people, not throw elemental energy blasts around.

Whereas the name makes perfect sense to me because I'm already familiar with pyrokinesis and cryokinesis from other stuff so kineticist reads as "the class with the -kinesis powers"

[devilbunny]

As mentioned before, I really like Antiquarian as an Occultist substitute if the class was to be renamed.

[Temperans]

A lot of the connotation of names have to do with the knowledge people have of it.

For example: If no one knew about Spider-Man and you were to ask random people what they thought it was, I bet most wouldn't think its a teen/college student that swings around from webs in a spandex suit and has a side job as a photographer.

Similarly, a person that has little knowledge of "-kinesis" as a term will not realize how much meaning the name "Kineticist" has.

[Mellored]

Plane-amancer?
Plane binder?
Plane touched?
Dimension bender?
Dimentionalist?
Astral agent?

[Natan Linggod 327]

Channeler like from the Wheel of Time series?
Or AetherWeaver, cos they 'weave' elemental forces?

[Darksol the Painbringer]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Who's to say that maybe one of the eventual Channeler paths involves the Ethereal Plane, dealing with ghosts, spirits, and so on? Ethermancers can certainly be a thing.

The telekineticist is already the ethereal one. That it deals with "strands of aether" more than less tangible things suggests the Kineticist isn't supposed to be a "channel anything at all you can find on plane". For ghosts, spirits, etc. the Spiritualist or the Medium are better choices.

I still maintain if you can have telekinesis, you can have pyrokinesis, hydrokinesis, geokinesis, aerokinesis, etc. and if you can have those then the best term is "kineticist" as "a person whose bread and butter is their skill in *-kinesis."

To be fair, "kinesis" in the dictionary is defined as movement or motion, which would technically imply that the subject matter has to be there in order for the movement or motion to take place. No water = nothing to move. You're essentially trying to cast Control Water on dry land. It's just not happening.

For them to utilize their powers the way they have, would suggest that Kineticists are moving things that aren't there, such as moving existing fire while in a tundra, or manipulating things that aren't there, like rock and fire from the human body. (We do possess air and water, this is true, but I don't remember kineticists doing some Star Wars "force drown/choke" shenanigans in PF1, so even using more appropriate elements doesn't make any sense.)

In short, while we can argue that "Kinesis" is a unique term, one without much parallel, I'm of the opinion that there is more to the "Kineticist" than "I move stuff" or "I put stuff in motion" outside of Telekinesis, and even that can be washed away via spell as evidenced by the Telekinetic spell chain.

[Temperans]

Kineticist had Suffocate that lets you use a force choke with Aether, Air, Water, or Void elements.

Also all Kineticist began play with a basic kinesis ability.

PF1 Kineticist Elemental Focus wrote:

She can select aether (telekinesis), air (aerokinesis), earth (geokinesis), fire (pyrokinesis), or water (hydrokinesis). She gains her selected element’s basic utility wild talent (basic telekinesis, basic aerokinesis, basic geokinesis, basic pyrokinesis, or basic hydrokinesis; see page 23) as a bonus wild talent. See Elements on page 14 for the specific abilities granted by each element.

Each of those abilities are about manipulating existing matter. While Kinetic Blast represent the Kineticist pulling power from the planes, which is why it takes burn to use the more powerful Kinetic Blasts.

* P.S. Wood gets Basic Phytokinesis and Void is Basic Chaokinesis.

[devilbunny]

Temperans wrote:

A lot of the connotation of names have to do with the knowledge people have of it.

For example: If no one knew about Spider-Man and you were to ask random people what they thought it was, I bet most wouldn't think its a teen/college student that swings around from webs in a spandex suit and has a side job as a photographer.

Similarly, a person that has little knowledge of "-kinesis" as a term will not realize how much meaning the name "Kineticist" has.

That's the other issue though. A lot of new players, especially first time players, aren't going to recognize what a kineticist is or does based on name alone and might just breeze over it. Spider-Man on the other hand is a multibillion franchise so you're way less likely to run into someone who doesn't know your friendly neighborhood spider. Actually I don't think I've ever met a person in my life who doesn't know who Spider-Man is. Same with classes like wizard or rogue - instant recognition cuz you have a frame of reference.

Kineticist? Hell, all my players played Pathfinder 1e for years, and only one person could tell you what that class is or does besides me because of a lack of interest in the occult classes. Whenever I bring up playing a kineticist, I get asked what it does again.

[Temperans]

I was saying that Spider-Man is recognizable because of how famous he is. If he weren't famous then not as many people would know it. If kineticist was more famous more people would know what it does. But since its not that is not happening, give it time and I am sure more people would learn what it does.

As for wondering what a class does, not everyone will know what a class does. Specially in a system with 20-40 different classes, each with 6+ archetypes, and all have at least 3 different ways to play it.

So I dont fault players for not knowing what a class does, specially if its for a theme they dont care about. But that is not a reason to change the name or theme.

********************

Again, but reworded. The name of something is recognized because of its history and fame. Why is a Wizard and Rogue called that and not a Magician and Ruffian? Because a designer chose those names 30+ years ago and they have remained the same all this time. Do you expect people to remember the 5 year old Kineticist class as the 40+ year old bog standard Wizard class?

[devilbunny]

Whatever you want to call a wizard, they've existed far longer in our collective history/myths/legends. Whether it be as a magician, a sorcerer, an enchanter, a mage. People know what it is and what it entails. The story of Merlin goes way further back than the invention of the 'wizard' class in D&D. Modern media like Harry Potter gives people an idea of what a wizard is when they hear the name and what they can do. If it had been named magician, people would still know what the class would entail in a fantasy game. If you google kineticist on the internet, you get "someone who studies kinetics", "a specialist in kinetics", and "a person who works in kinetic art". You might be able to infer that perhaps it involves elemental manipulation after you looked it up. But it's not intuitive. As other posters above us have mentioned, they had players that all had radically different ideas of what a kineticist class would do.

And if Paizo is willing to rename paladin to champion (a core class that has existed faaar longer than kineticist), I don't see why kineticist would be exempt if they believe there's something more fitting.

[nick1wasd]

"Champion" isn't very straight forward with what it does/is about, and "Kineticist" invokes the ability to "manipulate/throw" a >THING<. What thing? Well that's when you delve into the specifics of the class itself, kind of like Champion, "Champion of what?" is often asked, in 1E it was a Medium/Mythic path all about martial supremacy, now it's "a man who champions a cause greater than himself". I honestly think if they do a rename, "Channeler" or "Plane Controller" might work, but Kineticist just sounds so cool, I'd be sad if they got rid of it.

[HumbleGamer]

devilbunny wrote:

And if Paizo is willing to rename paladin to champion (a core class that has existed faaar longer than kineticist), I don't see why kineticist would be exempt if they believe there's something more fitting.

Well, if you think about the meaning and origin of paladin name, you can easily understand why it is not something which can't go with all the alignments.

Also, a lawful good champion is a paladin.
So nothing realy changed for what concerns the Paladin class.

[AnimatedPaper]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Well, if you think about the meaning and origin of paladin name, you can easily understand why it is not something which can't go with all the alignments.

If you're going to reach for the meaning and origin, then paladins can absolutely be of any alignment. Ain't nothing special about imperial clerks.

Edit: Calling Paladins Champions was a compromise position between those of us that disliked alignment restrictions and those that would refuse to play a game where paladins weren't alignment locked, like 5E. Ironically, the most vocal of that faction wound up quitting anyways, because allowing champions of differing alignments was still too close to allowing paladins of any alignment for them.

[HumbleGamer]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

Well, if you think about the meaning and origin of paladin name, you can easily understand why it is not something which can't go with all the alignments.

If you're going to reach for the meaning and origin, then paladins can absolutely be of any alignment. Ain't nothing special about imperial clerks.

Edit: Calling Paladins Champions was a compromise position between those of us that disliked alignment restrictions and those that would refuse to play a game where paladins weren't alignment locked, like 5E. Ironically, the most vocal of that faction wound up quitting anyways, because allowing champions of differing alignments was still too close to allowing paladins of any alignment for them.

It is an objective point of view.

Back then they were symbol of good, regardless the fact they, as you said, could have been part of any alignment, simply because a "good cause" is something which could be twisted depends the hystory, the environement, the winners, and stuff like that.

Paladins here on d&d/pf or any other rpg, as far as i recall, were always meant to be bringers of justice and good deeds.

So, to distinguish them from loyal believers of different deities ( with different alignments ) they decide to come up with a compromise, enlarging the class and using the term paladin to refer to the same character as before.

Before: Paladin = Class

Now: Champion = Class ( and depends the alignmenet, a specific name. Like Paladin is the one for Lawful Good characters ).s

They did absolutely nothing with the paladin.
It's the same as before.

[scary harpy]

It's a shame the Kineticist cannot be renamed the Warlock. I wish Pathfinder had it's own Warlock class and this would work really well. :(