What "Themes" do you want to see tackled in an AP?

[TheGoofyGE3K]

I wonder if we could get something like a Castlevania AP. Big bad undead has taken over a country and only recently has anyone noticed. Fight through his undead hordes and living allies to save the day! Have we ever gotten an undead-heavy AP? I'm not familiar enough with the older APs, but at a quick glance I dont see anything like that there. Would be cool to see how Paizo tackles their equivalent of Strahd/Dracula, maybe throw in some Frankenstein and werewolves too

[PossibleCabbage]

TheGoofyGE3K wrote:

I wonder if we could get something like a Castlevania AP. Big bad undead has taken over a country and only recently has anyone noticed. Fight through his undead hordes and living allies to save the day! Have we ever gotten an undead-heavy AP? I'm not familiar enough with the older APs, but at a quick glance I dont see anything like that there. Would be cool to see how Paizo tackles their equivalent of Strahd/Dracula, maybe throw in some Frankenstein and werewolves too

Carrion Crown is right of up your alley (the progression is literally: ghosts, werewolves, Frankensteins, fish monsters, draculas, BBEG), and has some great moments. It's flawed enough (it even calls out in book 6 that they should have introduced the villain before book 6) that I'd love to see them take another crack at that sort of thing.

[keftiu]

TheGoofyGE3K wrote:

Have we ever gotten an undead-heavy AP?

Tyrant’s Grasp was very recent.

[James Jacobs]

And Abomination Vaults, I hear, has a fair amount of ghosts and ghouls and the like.

[TheGoofyGE3K]

I really meant something more like Carrion Crown but for 2e, and admittedly havent gone through Abomination Vaults completely, nor did I realize Tyrant's Grasp was about undead (thought it was Titans for some reason, though after now reading the start of Carrion Crown, I get it) but yeah, Carrion Crown is the more Castlevania-esque AP I was referring to.

[James Jacobs]

We haven't done a Carrion Crown level undead themed Adventure Path for 2nd edition.

Yet.

[PossibleCabbage]

Yeah, the horror they've done in PF2 so far isn't the kind of classical, gothic, sometimes kind of borderline goofy horror that I love in Carrion Crown.

There's lots of a different kinds of horror (and also other things) that are doable in a game like this, but we're all going to like some things more than other things. Part of me just wants to go beat up Draculas sometimes.

[Patrickthekid]

We haven't had a story that mainly focused of daemons yet. Specifically those associated with the Four Horsemen.

[UnArcaneElection]

^Daemons are generally thought to be associated with the Four Horsemen -- although it would be a neat idea for some fraction of them to be in opposition, and although they are still Evil, you have to hold your nose and work with them at least a little bit to fight the greater Evil.

[Grankless]

There have been enough peculiar hints about something being up with the First Horseman (formerly known as the Oinodaemon) that I'm sure something is going to happen eventually with Abaddon.

[the nerve-eater of Zur-en-Aarh]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Daemons are generally thought to be associated with the Four Horsemen -- although it would be a neat idea for some fraction of them to be in opposition, and although they are still Evil, you have to hold your nose and work with them at least a little bit to fight the greater Evil.

Actually, as interesting moral challenges/dilemmas go, I'd rather something along the lines of "the Greater Evil's plans don't come to fruition for millennia, can you work with them to stop the Lesser Evil doing something horrible right now?"

[UnArcaneElection]

^Vote for Cthulhu, when you are tired of voting for the lesser of two evils.

[Kyrt]

Has there been a proper First World AP yet? I'm quite fond of the fey/fae in general and think their realm in particular seems very interesting overall. Perhaps a previously mentioned heist adventure could actually be stealing something from the fey/fae.

[logic_poet]

Kyrt wrote:

Has there been a proper First World AP yet? I'm quite fond of the fey/fae in general and think their realm in particular seems very interesting overall. Perhaps a previously mentioned heist adventure could actually be stealing something from the fey/fae.

I think the Kingmaker hardcover will bring in the First World elements from the computer game. As for the heist idea, I'd like it to be you steal something from Ragadahn that he stole from Kelizandri as part of a plot to free another elemental lord of good.

[Unicore]

I think a fun and interesting campaign idea could be centered around a collection of chaotically aligned deities forming a new pantheon (or being cajoled into forming a new pantheon) in order to accomplish a specific task. Perhaps something like “the villains are attempting to release rovagug as an international plot” and forces of purely destructive chaos are working together in ways no one believes possible.

This could be a normal AP in many ways, but it would be cool to dive into the Ganzi heritage and locations where chaos has especially infused Golarion, calling for a more mobile party and not one necessarily focused on one specific region. Perhaps it could even delve deeper into wild magic as a whole. Maybe agents of Desna or Calistria play a double agent type of role in exposing the plot but few world powers or full faiths of civilization take the threat serious because many of the early threats are believed to be incapable of organizing themselves.

[AnimatedPaper]

logic_poet wrote:

Kyrt wrote:

Has there been a proper First World AP yet? I'm quite fond of the fey/fae in general and think their realm in particular seems very interesting overall. Perhaps a previously mentioned heist adventure could actually be stealing something from the fey/fae.

I think the Kingmaker hardcover will bring in the First World elements from the computer game.

A thought for a 3 part AP (or possibly just an adventure); in the aftermath of Kingmaker, some powers in the first world were disturbed and shaken up, even temporarily killed. So some of the kingdoms more closely aligned with the First World are sending a team to see what assistance can be rendered and opportunities can be realized. They are not, however, sending anyone actually known to be aligned with the kingdom. That wouldn't end well. Instead, they're sending... well you. Get plane shifting.

There's also been a ton of PFS storylines that ended at level 12; some of them might have loose threads to be picked up by an aftermath AP. The assault on Gallowspire is an obvious one of course. In some ways, Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is exactly such an AP.

[Davor Firetusk]

A post Gallowspire AP is a really good idea. For a theme you could definitely go post-Apocalyptic. It doesn't even have to directly involve Tar-Baphon and it could still be high level.

[YourNewShoe]

Evil Paul wrote:

But if it's "the Northern nations play nicely with the Garundi nations in our universe" then that suggests that what happened in Earth history is purely down to individual people being bad, and side-steps the notion that systems, such as colonialism, empire, commerce and religion can all inexorably drive terrible outcomes which is political comment I would disagree with, even if it is said by accident.

Normally, I would agree with you - but keep in mind that this would be in the greater context of Golarion. Golarion is a place, by and large, where systems are downplayed, institutions have an understated influence and the individual or small group reigns supreme. From a historical perspective, it's a place where Great Man Theory is broadly correct, mixed in with very idealist (specifically meaning it as the opposite of materialist, here) forms of historical interpretation. Xin founded Thassilon, which turned evil because a handful of individuals were corrupted, etc.

In that context, saying "Avistani nations didn't do evil things in their relations with Garundi ones because they weren't evil" isn't making a statement on its own, merely repeating what it present elsewhere.

I'd also see the material situation in the setting to run counter to any sort of 'this is the legacy of the Avistani empires' relations with Garund' situation, as the kind of imperialist-colonialist dynamic that emerged historically wouldn't make sense in it. One could comment on the results of states crashing against one another, certainly, but Garund is broadly speaking too strong to simply be the target of imperial/colonial ambition, both in terms of its states and environment (which historically limited colonial/imperial expansion from Europe into Africa massively, even as European empires grew strong enough to create the power imbalance necessary for them to be theoretically able to - and in Golarion would be present in the form of "you sent your colonists into the jungle and then the CR 8 wildlife obliterated them" even if things like malaria aren't).

[UnArcaneElection]

^Cheliax tried to colonize Garund as it colonized other parts of Avistan, but then it lost Sargava and eventually the other parts of Avistan (apart from Isger that it seems to own in all but name); the colonists hung on in Sargava for a while, but with Cheliax being hostile rather than supportive (since they declared independence), they eventually fell.

Also keep in mind that on Earth, while the colonial powers did plenty of damage in the Age of Sail through the slave trade (and the transoceanic slave trade on Golarion seems a lot smaller than it was on Earth, probably in part due to the Shackles Pirates being in the way(*)), they had a hard time getting into interior Africa before the Age of Steam, and Golarion hasn't yet gotten to the Age of Steam (apart from a possible few curiosities around Alkenstar and Numeria, and while Alkenstar is in Garund, Nex and Geb keep it too small to do any major mischief). Other forays from Avistan into Garund, but ended badly for the would-be colonizers (with Geb in eastern Garund having much to do with at least one of those endings).

(*)Not that I think they would have any scruples against trading slaves themselves, but they hate Cheliax, which would be the largest market for them; this also kept Cheliax from retaking Sargava until it collapsed on its own.

So the upshot is that Avistani nations were on the whole no less evil than the European nations of Earth -- they just didn't have the opportunities for mischief in Garund that the European nations of Earth had in Africa.

Back on topic, 2 consecutive posts in another thread inspired me to this:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Kyonin definitely does need another pass, since I was flabbergasted at how much more interested I was with Golarion's elves after reading the "People of the Mwangi" chapter than I was beforehand.

Instead of a retcon, I want to see a story made out of it: An AP in which the PCs have to join the effort to reform Kyonin. Even though the Winter Council has officially fallen and the Lantern Bearers are officially reformed, Allevrah is still lurking around, and undoubtedly a lot of other J. Edgar Hoover types are still lurking around as well . . . .

[Lonesomechunk]

A Seafaring AP could be fun. We had skulls and shackles and ruins of azlant in 1e so it isn't necesarily a brand new concept but it could be neat to revisit in 2e either as a 3-parter or 6-parter

[UnArcaneElection]

^Now that you mention it, I'd like to see an AP of privateers against slavery (probably with Letters of Marque from Andoran). This awesome Skull and Shackles PbP (which unfortunately went inactive) made a good start at this.

[keftiu]

If we keep getting Lost Omens books for each Meta-Region, then the High Seas one is only a matter of time!

[PossibleCabbage]

keftiu wrote:

If we keep getting Lost Omens books for each Meta-Region, then the High Seas one is only a matter of time!

I really wonder if they're going to do this, since some of them seem to be slightly redundant with other line books e.g. "The Eye of Dread" and the forthcoming Undead book, or are just harder sells (like "The Shining Kingdom" is Galt + Standard High Fantasy Region).

I'm absolutely jazzed for a High Seas book and an Impossible Lands book though.

[keftiu]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

keftiu wrote:

If we keep getting Lost Omens books for each Meta-Region, then the High Seas one is only a matter of time!

I really wonder if they're going to do this, since some of them seem to be slightly redundant with other line books e.g. "The Eye of Dread" and the forthcoming Undead book, or are just harder sells (like "The Shining Kingdom" is Galt + Standard High Fantasy Region).

I'm absolutely jazzed for a High Seas book and an Impossible Lands book though.

We have 2/10 already, which is enough evidence for me to expect a proper line of them - why create the Meta-Region concept otherwise?

Book of the Dead is apparently going to have some stuff written by Geb himself, so that’s the more apparent tie than the Eye of Dread, but there’s also a lot more to that region than just undead; Tar-Baphon is an overwhelming military threat prompting a number of unlikely international alliances (including with two “monster” nations, Oprak and Belkzen), while Ustalav is there for your gothic horror needs. The year we get that book might coincide with a horror supplement, while High Seas could easily pair with a nautical or aquatic book.

Shining Lands are tough to make interesting, but the Mwangi book proves that these things can really shine with effort from new talent! That particular region is at the bottom of my list (Golden Road and Impossible Kingdoms first, please!), but I expect it could still be solid.

[Evan Tarlton]

I want a book for each region, and I hope that they all get the level of detail and love that the Mwangi Expanse book got.

[CorvusMask]

Also Book of the Dead is rpg line book, so its going to be more about undead and necromancy in general than the deep dive into particular locations presumably

[UnArcaneElection]

^That said, 2 particular locations on Golarion have an awful lot to say about Undead.

[logic_poet]

After Quest for the Frozen Flame and Outlaws of Alkenstar, one theme I'd like to see come up in Blood Lords is refinement. Maybe the PCs need to host a funeral or tea ceremony, or appear at a knightly tournament, or as a reverse on the coutroom drama in Carrion Crown, maybe they need to prosecute and secure the conviction of a more powerful foe as their only hope of beating that foe. I will definitely want something "high culture" by then, though.

[Ian G]

Stuff I'd like to see:

--Cortes's invasion of Mexico, but realistic (i.e. the conquistadors are a bunch of starving criminals WAY out of their depth being used for their weird but situationally useful tech by local polities looking to kick the biggest dog out and become the new big dog).

--Ironfang Invasion and Hell's Rebels already kinda did elements of this, but a post-conquest resistance movement against a decaying imperial power would be cool (like, Tupac Amaru II's rebellion kinda thing?).

--An entire AP set in Tian Xia. Mashup of Imperial Chinese politics circa one of the more disunited periods, wuxia films, and some elements of modern diplomatic situations (i.e. lots of honor and ceremony plus Eternal Leaders with giant statues and court intrigue and tense international border situations all threatening to spiral into a continent-wide war that the PCs must avert). Jade Regent had a kind of cool Marco Polo thing going despite the broken caravan rules and all, but I would prefer to spend more time doing court politics/intrigue and doing poetry and waxing eloquent about honor and stuff, and less on the journey.

--Another planet-hopping adventure like Reign of Winter but with more commitment to the pulp planet-jumping stuff. Full on Edgar Rice Burroughs stuff for an entire AP, with airships and sword duels between half-naked ladies for the honor of some dude wearing nothing but strategically placed jewelry and shenanigans like that. Or half-naked dudes fighting for ladies wearing nothing but strategically placed jewelry, I'm not picky I just want shirtless buff sword-swinging and airships and ray guns and four-armed aliens all mashed up at once.

I'd put money on beating Tar-Baphon for good, or at least for the forseeable future, being the eventual capstone to 2e. I'd give it a few years after D&D 5e releases the 5.5 patch people are betting is coming.

[keftiu]

Ian G wrote:

Stuff I'd like to see:

--Cortes's invasion of Mexico, but realistic (i.e. the conquistadors are a bunch of starving criminals WAY out of their depth being used for their weird but situationally useful tech by local polities looking to kick the biggest dog out and become the new big dog).

I'm really not interested in retreading historical genocidal colonialism in Golarion.

Quote:

--Another planet-hopping adventure like Reign of Winter but with more commitment to the pulp planet-jumping stuff. Full on Edgar Rice Burroughs stuff for an entire AP, with airships and sword duels between half-naked ladies for the honor of some dude wearing nothing but strategically placed jewelry and shenanigans like that. Or half-naked dudes fighting for ladies wearing nothing but strategically placed jewelry, I'm not picky I just want shirtless buff sword-swinging and airships and ray guns and four-armed aliens all mashed up at once.

Have you read the brief for

Spoiler:

volume 5 of Strength of Thousands, wherein the PCs travel to Akiton to hunt someone on an airship?

But yes, it's a flavor I always want more of.

[UnArcaneElection]

Ian G wrote:

Stuff I'd like to see:

--Cortes's invasion of Mexico, but realistic (i.e. the conquistadors are a bunch of starving criminals WAY out of their depth being used for their weird but situationally useful tech by local polities looking to kick the biggest dog out and become the new big dog).

--Ironfang Invasion and Hell's Rebels already kinda did elements of this, but a post-conquest resistance movement against a decaying imperial power would be cool (like, Tupac Amaru II's rebellion kinda thing?).

Be careful what you wish for. Anyone local to Arcadia (most likely setting for this) would have to be careful what they wished for. Although maybe this could work if the Arcadian PCs realize that the invaders they are getting aid from are unsavory, and actually take steps to do background checks on them and find a way to stop them before it's too late. (Since Cheliax is the most likely source for the invaders, this won't be easy.)

Ian G wrote:

--Another planet-hopping adventure like Reign of Winter but with more commitment to the pulp planet-jumping stuff. Full on Edgar Rice Burroughs stuff for an entire AP, with airships and sword duels between half-naked ladies for the honor of some dude wearing nothing but strategically placed jewelry and shenanigans like that. Or half-naked dudes fighting for ladies wearing nothing but strategically placed jewelry, I'm not picky I just want shirtless buff sword-swinging and airships and ray guns and four-armed aliens all mashed up at once.

{. . .}

It strikes me that dueling while half-naked in an environment like most of those visited by Reign of Winter would be extremely uncomfortable . . . .

[Yakman]

Lonesomechunk wrote:

A Seafaring AP could be fun. We had skulls and shackles and ruins of azlant in 1e so it isn't necesarily a brand new concept but it could be neat to revisit in 2e either as a 3-parter or 6-parter

Ruins of Azlant really only has one part on a boat, and while its very memorable, it's not exactly 'seafaring' more like 'sea if we don't all drown'

[UnArcaneElection]

Yakman wrote:

Lonesomechunk wrote:

A Seafaring AP could be fun. We had skulls and shackles and ruins of azlant in 1e so it isn't necesarily a brand new concept but it could be neat to revisit in 2e either as a 3-parter or 6-parter

Ruins of Azlant really only has one part on a boat, and while its very memorable, it's not exactly 'seafaring' more like 'sea if we don't all drown'

Also, a piece of Serpent's Skull was seafaring (AFTER you make it out of Book One(*)), at least in this PbP (unfortunately inactive).

(*)Which unfortunately took FOREVER, at least in the above-linked PbP.

[Numerian]

How about a planar adventure path for once, I'd even switch to 2e for it

[logic_poet]

Numerian wrote:

How about a planar adventure path for once, I'd even switch to 2e for it

Probably at the top of my most-wanted list is the AP where the PCs hop around mostly in the outer planes to free another elemental lord.

[keftiu]

Strength of Thousands has whet my appetite and now I’m clamoring for a Bright Lions AP. It’s such a killer mix: a Mwangi take on Hell’s Rebels, but with the added flavoring of rediscovering your own buried history and being empowered by a pantheon you help restore to the world. Walkena is begging to be a final boss.

I’d also love to see a very stereotypical fantasy adventure as a 1-10, something where you go from being village heroes to the only hope to defeat the evil wizard/general/dragon/necromancer/etc… but in Fallen Razatlan, or honestly anywhere in Arcadia. Make the old feel new again!

[mikeawmids]

How about a 3 part AP where the PCs are either a touring rock band or groupies of a touring rockband. It bears some similarities to the circus aspect of Extinction Curse, but you could really lean into the death metal angle for gnarly monsters and radical guitar solos.

Edit: Name of the AP right there: Death Metal.

Part 1: We're with the Band
Arrival in a new town, setting up, dealing with unreasonable demands from the talent. The lead performer disappears in search of his next high and you have to bring him back for scheduled performance.

Part 2: Find your Sound: due to the poor way they have been treated by the band, the PCs set up their own band and must build a reputation/brand for themselves.

Part 3: Battle of the Bands: the PC face off against the band they originally served in a climatic battle of the bands, the amount of sheer awesomeness on display opens a rift to the Rock dimension and a load of demons spill out. Boom!

That's all I've got right now. Could be cool. :D

EDIT: I am so gonna' homebrew this for my next D&D5e campaign. :D

[UnArcaneElection]

^All-Bard Party threads for you (but they're all 1st Edition):

Getting the Band Together (The All Bard Party)
The Ultimate All-Bard Party?
What do you guys think about an all-Bard party for this AP? (it's for Mummy's Mask, of all the weird choices)
All The World's A Stage (alt. title: Bards Bards Everywhere)
Getting some rockstars together - What's the best all-bard team?
THE ALL-BARD PARTY: How do you coordinate group character creation without stifling creativity? (2020, but still 1st Edition)

Not as useful as I thought . . . .

Also worth search for one-class party threads, of which some individual posts are for all-Bard (or all-Bard/Skald) parties.

[mikeawmids]

I did think All Bard party initially, but then I thought; Nah, it's probably enough just to give everyone proficiency (or whatever the PF2 equivalent is) in Performance.

[The Raven Black]

mikeawmids wrote:

I did think All Bard party initially, but then I thought; Nah, it's probably enough just to give everyone proficiency (or whatever the PF2 equivalent is) in Performance.

Do it Strength of Thousands way : free Bard MC Dedication for everybody.

[Evan Tarlton]

It wouldn't even need to be an all-bard party. Martials could be the bouncers and the roadies, rogue or investigators could be the managers, any spellcaster with illusions could provide the special effects, high Dex characters with Acrobatic Performance could be the backup dancers. If it had to be an all-performer party, it still wouldn't need to be all bards. You just need characters with good to high Charisma and the right skill feats.

[PossibleCabbage]

I think my main concern with the Bill & Ted/Jem & the Holograms AP is that we already had a circus AP that didn't feel very circus-ey when you got into later books.

[The Raven Black]

I need Golarion : the Musical AP.

Obviously, you oppose the Whispering Way.

[keftiu]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think my main concern with the Bill & Ted/Jem & the Holograms AP is that we already had a circus AP that didn't feel very circus-ey when you got into later books.

Extinction Curse is so weird… it’s “the circus AP” in a lot of the marketing and in folks brains, but it’s actually the “Aroden screwed over the xulgaths” AP as much or more than any of the circus elements. It’s a shame the two themes never really cohere.

The band AP sounds too silly for my tastes, but if it did happen, I’d expect it to be a 1-10, so as to preserve the theme and scrappy feel.

[James Jacobs]

Hmm. A band AP sounds glorious to me, especially if it's an 11-20 one so the band can really get some special effects going and serenade some demigods... (I've kinda been itching to do a whimsical AP for a loooong time...)

[PossibleCabbage]

I am 100% there for a band AP, particularly if some subset of the high level portion takes place in the First World.

[Rysky]

keftiu wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think my main concern with the Bill & Ted/Jem & the Holograms AP is that we already had a circus AP that didn't feel very circus-ey when you got into later books.

Extinction Curse is so weird… it’s “the circus AP” in a lot of the marketing and in folks brains, but it’s actually the “Aroden screwed over the xulgaths” AP as much or more than any of the circus elements. It’s a shame the two themes never really cohere.

The band AP sounds too silly for my tastes, but if it did happen, I’d expect it to be a 1-10, so as to preserve the theme and scrappy feel.

That AP culminating in a carnival/festival trying to integrate the Xulgath communities with others would have been awesome.

[The Raven Black]

I feel a shift of APs from protecting to healing would fit the current zeitgeist.

[keftiu]

The Raven Black wrote:

I feel a shift of APs from protecting to healing would fit the current zeitgeist.

Strength of Thousands has a prominent amount of encounters that can be resolved without violence, which I really enjoy. I still think some degree of combat is inevitable to Pathfinder, but a restorative story is one I would really enjoy.

Sarkoris begs for this kind of story, IMO, and I think Rahadoum could also tell a pretty compelling one.