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** spoiler omitted **What do folks think the odds of a Mzali-focused AP look like?
It’s a chance for a novel genre turn (espionage/revolution) with clear and interesting good and bad guys (a rebel alliance of oppressed people and marginalized tradition faiths aides by other heroic groups versus an undead tyrant), with the added bonus of a setting the team seems very confident in.
I think it could be great, but I wonder how necessary Walkena is as a big bad for the Mwangi region, given that Usaro has fallen.
I mean Walkena was CR 16 in 1e. You are around that level in that ap book.
I think implication is that there might not be Walkena after that book anymore <_<
Worth noting that the book calls this a diplomatic mission.
Also, bumping off Walkena leaves the Mwangi Expanse without a main BBEG.
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** spoiler omitted **What do folks think the odds of a Mzali-focused AP look like?
It’s a chance for a novel genre turn (espionage/revolution) with clear and interesting good and bad guys (a rebel alliance of oppressed people and marginalized tradition faiths aides by other heroic groups versus an undead tyrant), with the added bonus of a setting the team seems very confident in.
I think it could be great, but I wonder how necessary Walkena is as a big bad for the Mwangi region, given that Usaro has fallen.
I mean Walkena was CR 16 in 1e. You are around that level in that ap book.
I think implication is that there might not be Walkena after that book anymore <_<
Very possible! I often like the idea of half AP runs, and modding issues 2-4 as a combatting Walkena campaign appeals to me.
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** spoiler omitted **What do folks think the odds of a Mzali-focused AP look like?
It’s a chance for a novel genre turn (espionage/revolution) with clear and interesting good and bad guys (a rebel alliance of oppressed people and marginalized tradition faiths aides by other heroic groups versus an undead tyrant), with the added bonus of a setting the team seems very confident in.
I think it could be great, but I wonder how necessary Walkena is as a big bad for the Mwangi region, given that Usaro has fallen.
I mean Walkena was CR 16 in 1e. You are around that level in that ap book.
I think implication is that there might not be Walkena after that book anymore <_<
Worth noting that the book calls this a diplomatic mission.
Also, bumping off Walkena leaves the Mwangi Expanse without a main BBEG.
Yeah, though he IS evil, so he could try to murder pcs anyway. Though yeah it'd be more interesting story wise if it was just straight up diplomatic mission.
I do think Mwangi Expanse book has potential of setting up new threats, though that is definitely true: Ruthazek was killed off, King of Biting Ants who-might-or-might-not-be-dead might or might not get featured in this ap(I really hope so), with Walkeena defeated that would take care of pretty much all major named threats leaving left only organizations(like Aspis), nations (like Cheliax) or demon lords <_<
How about "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" as an AP? I think this could be an extremely funny Evil PCs AP, only assumed to be Chaotic Evil this time after the LE Hell's Vengeance one. This would probably work best with a low-level 3-part AP, rather than the usual 6-part arc to high levels.
How about "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia" as an AP? I think this could be an extremely funny Evil PCs AP, only assumed to be Chaotic Evil this time after the LE Hell's Vengeance one. This would probably work best with a low-level 3-part AP, rather than the usual 6-part arc to high levels.
I cannot imagine them releasing a CE product, considering its probably /the/ most disruptive player alignment.
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Please no more "you have to be evil" APs. APs where "evil is a valid choice" (e.g. Skull & Shackles, Reign of Winter, Strange Aeons) are a blast but mandating evil characters just doesn't work well in my experience.
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I cannot imagine them releasing a CE product, considering its probably /the/ most disruptive player alignment.
I can imagine this, but it'd be a tricky Adventure Path to pull off. Maybe. In a lot of ways, knowing that every PC is a specific alignment would make some elements of building an Adventure Path easier, regardless of the alignment in question.
It would CERTAINLY be tightly curated as to its plot and story to not feature things that aren't appropriate, but that's the standard for all of our adventures.
That said, I think an all lawful good one would be even trickier to pull off. At least, it would be for me.
Character alignments aren't as disruptive if everyone is the same alignment. And disruptive players will find a way to be disruptive regardless.
The more Adventure Paths we do, though, the less worried I am that one might not be for a wide range of groups. The edition switch kind of reset that switch and now I think we'd need to rebuild momentum before we do something really unusual (like another all-evil Adventure Path, even though I'm still as eager as ever to do that "PCs are all Red Mantis" one), but the introduction of 3 part Adventure Paths will let us get to that point more quickly than it did in 1st edition. Because doing 3 of these in a year is faster than 2!
I cannot imagine them releasing a CE product, considering its probably /the/ most disruptive player alignment.
It was more of a funny thought experiment, honestly. But I would definitely buy such an unusual AP! It'd be a fun read. After all, I've always felt that "It's Always Sunny" looks a lot like the stereotypical joke murder hobo party in action: bickering, one-upping each other, jumping on ever-wackier schemes... Heck, one of the characters is even thought to be a serial killer!
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A Red Mantis AP would be a delight, speaking as someone who’s wanted to play an Assassins game in Blades in the Dark.
Bonus points if we get some peeks at the mysteries around Achaekek...
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A Red Mantis AP would be a delight, speaking as someone who’s wanted to play an Assassins game in Blades in the Dark.
Bonus points if we get some peeks at the mysteries around Achaekek...
Absolutely. Achaekek revelations are a big part of what I wanna put in such an AP. And now that we're doing 3 parters... doing this as a high level 3 part one might work even better. Although that's already two elements that make it a harder sell to management... and also I'm not really doing "new" adventure paths these days...
Absolutely. Achaekek revelations are a big part of what I wanna put in such an AP. And now that we're doing 3 parters... doing this as a high level 3 part one might work even better. Although that's already two elements that make it a harder sell to management... and also I'm not really doing "new" adventure paths these days...A Red Mantis AP would be a delight, speaking as someone who’s wanted to play an Assassins game in Blades in the Dark.
Bonus points if we get some peeks at the mysteries around Achaekek...
You’ve got my vote!
Toss it in the queue, right after “anything to do with Arcadia” and “Distant Worlds AP” :p
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I do think its in general better to have "AP where party is part of evil organization" rather than "AP where all three evil alignments are just as valid". Like both descriptions are technically true for Hell's Vengeance, but its focus was latter and I still felt like it was most suited ap for LE with CE support being bit tacked on ^_^; Like skinning a monk to make a flag is extremely brutal both in and out of context
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Absolutely. Achaekek revelations are a big part of what I wanna put in such an AP. And now that we're doing 3 parters... doing this as a high level 3 part one might work even better. Although that's already two elements that make it a harder sell to management... and also I'm not really doing "new" adventure paths these days...A Red Mantis AP would be a delight, speaking as someone who’s wanted to play an Assassins game in Blades in the Dark.
Bonus points if we get some peeks at the mysteries around Achaekek...
This has seemed like the way to do a Razmir Must Die AP, to me.
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This has seemed like the way to do a Razmir Must Die AP, to me.Absolutely. Achaekek revelations are a big part of what I wanna put in such an AP. And now that we're doing 3 parters... doing this as a high level 3 part one might work even better. Although that's already two elements that make it a harder sell to management... and also I'm not really doing "new" adventure paths these days...A Red Mantis AP would be a delight, speaking as someone who’s wanted to play an Assassins game in Blades in the Dark.
Bonus points if we get some peeks at the mysteries around Achaekek...
This pitch is incredible. I want this /so/ bad.
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The Red Mantis AP would work for me, since Achaekek allows for neutral worshipers, and I strongly prefer my evil-adjacent stories to have characters who can end up on either side of the line. Like the big misstep in Hell's Vengeance in my experience was that it better fit the CE maniac than the lawful neutral Chelaxian Patriot who during the plot would be tempted to cross some lines.
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My top choice would def be an "Impossible Lands" AP set across Nex + Geb + Mana Wastes.
For 1st Edition APs, there seemed to be a good balance between "traditional" APs with dungeon bashing and "high concept" APs. I'm definitely in the latter camp.
An Impossible Lands AP could combine themes of magic, politics, a bit of technology, and general weirdness. Geb would be an obvious bad guy, but that could just as easily be subverted. Both Nex and Geb present an alternate vision of human society, both how we live and who we are, you've got elements of transhumanism. Both regions have a stratefied society with have's vs have-nots and there is an ideological battle, with shades of the cold war as well (not to mention the fallout for that in the mana wastes).
I quite like the "Tour of the Region" format that was used in Carrion Crown, Iron Gods and others, where we explore different parts of a region using a plotline that keeps us moving. There is easily enough content across those three zones to do that.
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My top choice would def be an "Impossible Lands" AP set across Nex + Geb + Mana Wastes.
For 1st Edition APs, there seemed to be a good balance between "traditional" APs with dungeon bashing and "high concept" APs. I'm definitely in the latter camp.
An Impossible Lands AP could combine themes of magic, politics, a bit of technology, and general weirdness. Geb would be an obvious bad guy, but that could just as easily be subverted. Both Nex and Geb present an alternate vision of human society, both how we live and who we are, you've got elements of transhumanism. Both regions have a stratefied society with have's vs have-nots and there is an ideological battle, with shades of the cold war as well (not to mention the fallout for that in the mana wastes).
I quite like the "Tour of the Region" format that was used in Carrion Crown, Iron Gods and others, where we explore different parts of a region using a plotline that keeps us moving. There is easily enough content across those three zones to do that.
Agree with everything you say here, with the caveat that I’d be giddy if it could feature a stopover in Jalmeray that actually felt like it fit the plot.
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I've said elsewhere, but Jalmeray would make the most sense to start such an AP of the entire region. Despite being the least culturally centered on Avistan, it is the closest to "default" of the all the areas in the region, though Nex runs second.
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Jalmeray seems like the natural starting point for an impossible lands AP, since it's the part of the region that's the least hostile to outsiders. It's an island nation that maintains peaceful relations with everybody, has unmatched natural splendor, several top academies, and a unique culture which is also natural entrypoint to Inner Sea nations wanting to establish relationships with Vudra (and vice versa).
I’m starting to feel convinced that the Impossible Lands work best as a split 1-10 3-part and an 11-20 3-part, because any AP that goes to Alkenstar is one that probably demands no spellcasters… which gets tough in a plotline that visits Nex or Jalmeray.
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^Speaking of which, I noticed that in 2nd Edition it is possible to cast spells of higher level than an Antimagic Field into or even originating in the Antimagic Field. Wonder what this does for the dead magic areas around and in Alkenstar? Also wonder if you could carry some item that gives you a Promagic Bubble so that spellcasters aren't totally hosed in such areas?
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Impossible Lands theme, someone is trying to start a war between Geb and Nex.
Book 1 starts with the PCs in the Mana Wasteland, in a little town, maybe next to a "food railroad" between the trading towns between Geb and Nex. Bad things happen. PCs investigate. PCs get hired by the Grand Duchy to troubleshoot. Appendix about Mana Wastelands.
Book 2 brings the PCs to a city in Nex. James Bond stuff happens. PCs journey to city in Geb. Learn that neither Nex or Geb are the bad guys. They need to head to Jalmeray. Appendix about land trade routes and smuggling.
Book 3 pits the PCs against the big evil mastermind in Jalmeray, who plans to profit from a war between Geb and Nex. PCs need to head back to the Grand Duchy where diplomats between Geb and Nex are meeting. Stop the assassination attempt. Appendix about war profiteers, diplomats, or assassins.
It's a old trope: stopping war between two powerful nations.
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Since we're doing an AP in the Magaambya magic academy which gives everyone a free archetype so as to justify "why you're in a magic academy" if you really want to play a barbarian, I wonder if we couldn't do something similar in an Impossible Lands AP where we give everyone a non-magic archetype so they have something to do in the mana wastes.
Another theme for the Impossible Lands Mini-AP = Bounty Hunters.
And stack on whatever background theme that is going on in the background, brewing tensions between Nex and Geb, criminal organizations, a talking psychic dog, etc.
As long as there is going to be dancing in the end fight.
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If I may make a counter-pitch:
Two three-part APs that can fit together.
AP1: Alkenstar is the star of the show, with the PCs acting as troubleshooters (emphasis on the “shoot”) for the Duchy. No spellcasting classes allowed, as all three volumes remain in the dead magic zone. Has something of an urban intrigue vibe. Everyone gets firearm proficiency, yeehaw.
First volume is about rooting out a destructive local gang/cult causing all sorts of destructive, violent mayhem, seemingly without cause; stop their bombings, and raid their hideout - where it’s revealed that they have no ideology, and are being paid handsomely to destabilize Alkenstar.
Second volume sees the troubleshooters follow the trail of gold down into Dongun Hold, where they wrestle with dwarven politics in the hunt for their mysterious paymaster; the noble in question reveals that his isolationist political bloc is acting in part thanks to outside incentive, meeting with their masked mastermind in a ruin out in the Mana Wastes.
Third and final volume is a trek across the Mana Wastes, potentially getting a little survival or hexcrawl-y (might be too much of a shift?) and probably meeting some very nice fleshwarps, who are humanized much more than most “mutants” in fiction. The ruin - devastated in the old wars - is the obligatory dungeon delve, with some sort of war-hungry fiend at the heart, tasked with weakening Alkenstar and Dongun Hold… so that they suffer in the imminent Nex-Geb War! Cue evil laughter and a boss fight people complain about on the forums.
With that, this immediate threat to the Duchy is neutralized, but that pales in comparison to the storm that is about to wrack them and the rest of the Impossible Lands. For some troubleshooters, that’s enough, but a dogged few follow that lead into…
AP2: Nex is back, Geb is giddy, and all hell is about to break loose. An unlikely conspiracy meets for tea in Jalmeray, hidden behind the shutters of a very fine mansion; a Gebbite Blood Lord and an Arclord of Nex, determined to do whatever they can to prevent war. They have impressive means, and so enlist a number of acclaimed (level 11) PCs from the region (I bet the Backgrounds in the Player’s Guide are /killer/) as their deniable hands in this affair. No restrictions on characters here, and I bet it’s surprisingly accepting of morally flexible PCs despite the apparent altruism of their goal.
Volume One is a daring heist of the secret library within the Conservatory, Jalmeray’s premiere school of spies, in pursuit of knowledge that could help prevent or blunt the imminent resumption of hostilities. Potentially link in with the fiendish subplot from AP1, either elsewhere in Jalmeray or as a rival heist team (or perhaps corrupting the Conservatory itself?).
Volume Two sees the PCs hunting big game: a rival Blood Lord, some mad fool so eager to curry favor with Geb that they’re loudly endorsing war, but their assassination requires finding out how to permanently kill them first. Absolutely has a gazetteer of Mechitar in the back.
Volume Three is a daring raid into Quantium and ultimately the Domain of Nex itself, where the archmage is conducting a ritual to wipe Geb off the face of Golarion (the big crater in Holomog was a trial run); it falls to the PCs to disrupt this ritual and - using the information stolen from the Conservatory - reroute the power gathered for it into orchestrating some kind of magically-enforced peace between the two nations, perhaps by binding the two feuding mages’ souls together?
This isn’t my finest or most coherent work, but I think it hits everything I’d want from the region.
Since we're doing an AP in the Magaambya magic academy which gives everyone a free archetype so as to justify "why you're in a magic academy" if you really want to play a barbarian, I wonder if we couldn't do something similar in an Impossible Lands AP where we give everyone a non-magic archetype so they have something to do in the mana wastes.
I just don’t think an archetype meaty enough to make up for a Wizard losing pretty much all of their class features.
Plus, I /want/ my Alkenstar party to be something like… human gunslinger, dwarf inventor, human (dhampir) investigator, and fleshwarp barbarian!
For me the appeal is the other way. I want the Mana Waste one to be higher level so that casters can reasonably be expected to "punch" their way through by sheer talent. You may like the idea of a no magic party, but that's better for an adventure or even one-shot. A significant minority of players will see "you basically can't play a spellcaster in this AP" and immediately want to play a spellcaster. May as well enable the madness, at least far enough to make it possible if difficult.
Plus I think Geb and Nex are best used as background, not direct actors against, or even allied, with the PCs, and so more suited to a lower level story.
They're just too powerful to be anything but a plot device.
Since we're doing an AP in the Magaambya magic academy which gives everyone a free archetype so as to justify "why you're in a magic academy" if you really want to play a barbarian, I wonder if we couldn't do something similar in an Impossible Lands AP where we give everyone a non-magic archetype so they have something to do in the mana wastes.
Don't even need a free archetype to explain why you're a Barbarian in a magic academy. Copying from my post in the Strength of Thousands Adventure Path blog comments: "For some time, the world has been teaching us about potential weaknesses in our curriculum, and not just in the most obvious places like the Mana Wastes. As a result, we have decided to expand our curriculum. Starting this year, we will be consolidating our scattered courses on nonmagical matters into a new department, the curriculum of which will be introduced tomorrow at the grand opening of the newly-completed Spellbreaker Hall."
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I really want an abolitionist AP, set across the Golden Road; Legends set up several characters directly tied to that theme in the region, and it makes it real easy to go after your enemies with a clean conscience.
Given it's our first "Africa" AP, is Strength of Thousands not going to explore slavery and abolitionist themes at all?
Actually there is Serpents Skull and Skull and Shackles, isn't there? So scratch the "first" thing. Question still stands.
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I think it's good/important for an AP rooted in African themes to be about stories of/from that place, not just about how external forces have affected the region.
Vidrian is a great location to explore those stories, the entire Mwangi Expanse can and should be more than that.
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Slavery in Golarion really wasn't color coded like it was on Earth. It was more a "you must be at least this tall to earn manumission" in some parts and more "opportunistic" in other parts.
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Given it's our first "Africa" AP, is Strength of Thousands not going to explore slavery and abolitionist themes at all?
Actually there is Serpents Skull and Skull and Shackles, isn't there? So scratch the "first" thing. Question still stands.
It’s the first AP explicitly centered on PCs from the continent, which is a major distinction.
And no, I don’t expect it to, given that it doesn’t come up at all in the five volumes we have store pages for. It’s also not as major a theme in the Mwangi Expanse as it is in the Golden Road, which is why I suggested that region instead.
Garund has more stories to tell than slavery, colonialism, and Black suffering. Not that those stories aren’t compelling and worth telling - and a good part of why Vidrian exists - but there’s more out there. I’m glad Strength of Thousands is the story it is.
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There is way more to Africa and it's history then the slave trade.
Just saying.
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I really want an abolitionist AP, set across the Golden Road; Legends set up several characters directly tied to that theme in the region, and it makes it real easy to go after your enemies with a clean conscience.
To come back to this: the whole tangle of plot threads with Kassi Aziril, Hashim ibn Sayyid, and Shimon-je seems like scaffolding for some eventual “derail an algollthu conspiracy across Northern Garund” plotline (my hope is in an AP). Shimon-je is also shouted out as an abolitionist, and there’s also the ongoing hook that the queen of Qadira is an outspoken abolitionist herself, pressuring her spouse on the topic.
I’m maybe conflating two unrelated plotlines, but it feels like you could do a major subtheme of anti-slavery work, and ultimately the algollthus are slavers themselves. It would give a nice excuse to romp across everywhere in the Golden Road save Osirion, which is honestly fine by me.
Some good points about Slavery/African themes, which I generally agree with. And yes, it's good that Golarion has analogies rather than straight imports, eg, slavery in Golarion isn't really connected to the colour of human skin, there isn't an explicit Garundi -> Inner Sea slave Corridor, etc. And I totally agree that Africa has a rich history outside of the slave trade. (And even the very fact that I've used the word "Africa" to reference a hugely diverse area of landscapes and peoples is incorrect here).
I'm certainly interested to see what Strength of Thousands has to say. But at the same time, absence of politics is itself politics. If there is no exploration at all of the relationship between the Northern/European nations of Golarion and the Garundi nations in our story, then that itself is still comment. It might be that the comment is "the Northern nations are not relevant to our story", which is totally fine. But if it's "the Northern nations play nicely with the Garundi nations in our universe" then that suggests that what happened in Earth history is purely down to individual people being bad, and side-steps the notion that systems, such as colonialism, empire, commerce and religion can all inexorably drive terrible outcomes which is political comment I would disagree with, even if it is said by accident.
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Legacy of Fire was the first AP to be set in Garund, and Mummy's Mask is based on Egypt, so Strength of Thousands is more like the fifth "African" adventure path. Keftiu makes a good point though.
Either way, I don't expect (or want) that to be a theme in Strength of Thousands. Nothing we've heard about it mentions slavery, and I'm not sure if slavery even exists in Nantambu.
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Yeah, the premise of the Strength of Thousands is just- you're in a magic academy (university analogue, so the PCs are older), and the sine qua non of the magic academy is "go out and do good" and it so happens that the magic academy happens to be based in the Mwangi Expanse because perhaps the most important magic user in recent history was from there.
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Is any Avistani AP that doesn’t deal with Cheliax “side-stepping issues of empire and slavery?”
It’s a continent. It has room for many stories. The insistence that a fantasy Africa-equivalent must always be wallowing in the pain of colonization from fantasy Europe is doing nobody any favors.
I really want an abolitionist AP, set across the Golden Road; Legends set up several characters directly tied to that theme in the region, and it makes it real easy to go after your enemies with a clean conscience.
Paizo has put their own spin on classic D&D adventures before. A Pathinder version of Against The Slave Lords would make me very happy indeed, especially if it ends with the PCs leading an uprising in Okeno.
I really want an abolitionist AP, set across the Golden Road; Legends set up several characters directly tied to that theme in the region, and it makes it real easy to go after your enemies with a clean conscience.Paizo has put their own spin on classic D&D adventures before. A Pathinder version of Against The Slave Lords would make me very happy indeed, especially if it ends with the PCs leading an uprising in Okeno.
Okeno is kind of in shambles currently, no? The 2e material I’ve read seems to paint the picture that the Gorilla King’s death kind of broke things.
We aren't likely to do an "Against the Slavers" thing soon, since we just did this in "Age of Ashes."
I’d argue that an AP where your aim is to actually disrupt the wider practice in the setting (maybe getting it outlawed in one or more nations) would feel distinct, but I see your point!
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The AP is, in some ways, a direct reaction to the slave trade being outlawed in several nations.
Part of the reason the Scarlet Triad got squirrelly when they did, putting into motion several of the events in the AP, was Ravounel and Absalom outlawing slavery.
The Absalom manumission happens "on screen" in PFS in one of the annual specials, and we deal with some of the fallout in Ravounel in the AP.
I'm certainly interested to see what Strength of Thousands has to say. But at the same time, absence of politics is itself politics. If there is no exploration at all of the relationship between the Northern/European nations of Golarion and the Garundi nations in our story, then that itself is still comment. It might be that the comment is "the Northern nations are not relevant to our story", which is totally fine. But if it's "the Northern nations play nicely with the Garundi nations in our universe" then that suggests that what happened in Earth history is purely down to individual people being bad, and side-steps the notion that systems, such as colonialism, empire, commerce and religion can all inexorably drive terrible outcomes which is political comment I would disagree with, even if it is said by accident.
What you're talking about happened, but in Viridian, not in Magaambya where the AP is centered. Frankly, no one on Golarian ever had the magical or technological power to challenge that particular area, which is kind of saying a lot considering the high powered people wandering around.