How would you build one?
To my mind, the ultimate tank should be able to do a few things.
I agree with RPG Wilikers, a good tank should be able to take a good 4 or more full attacks from an enemy of an approximate level before going down.
A tank should have good, layered defenses: lots of HP, significant AC, strong saves, a way to mitigate martial damage (such as DR or miss chances), resistances or immunities, etc.
A tank should have an ability to do enough damage to keep enemies' attention/aggression, perhaps multiple enemies. They should also have an ability to make it difficult for an enemy to escape them (such as Step Up, multiple AoOs, high mobility, possibly a reach weapon and lunge).
A tank would be benefited by being able to defend or mitigate dmg to nearby or adjacent allies.
Paladins (Sacred Shield, Stonelord), Fighters (Unbreakable, Phalanx Soldier), Barbarians (Invulnerable Rager, Armored Hulk), Cavaliers, Golden Legionnaires and Stalwart Defenders all come to mind. Races such as dwarves and half-orcs also come to mind, as they have nice racial traits.
What's the best build we can come up with?
J
As with basically any PF optimisation question you need to define a level range. The same solutions do not work at level 1 and at level 20.
A few thoughts though. For serious damage stopping power you want mirror image coupled with a decent AC. Mirror image is on most arcane and psychic spell lists and a cleric domain. Getting to fast cast it via spell combat or quicken spell would be ideal but not essential.
Heavy armor or light armor probably ends up at the same AC on a defensively made character. Extreme dex coupled with light armor can be slightly more but not a lot. Adding two stats to AC usually means not having armor at all, but there are a number of exceptions.
AC & saves > HP.
A pet is another creature to protect and should be avoided.
If you can find a way to make the damage you take non-lethal or at least part of it, there is a feat out there that allows you reduce non-lethal damage by half if you make a successful fort save.
Another one lets you ignore most of the negatives of non-lethal damage.
I would start with a suli divine defender paladin. Take fey foundling at 1st level to boost healing from lay on hand. Also take the trait unscathed to boost his elemental resistance to 7. For offensive power attack is about all you need. To maximize defense don’t go with a two handed weapon build, but instead use weapon and shield with a high crit range. Focus most of your feats on boosting your AC. Armor focus, shield focus and dodge all add 1 to your AC. This might seem like a waste of feats but it adds up. After that take feats that boost your aura’s to help the rest of the party. Fearless Aura and ultimate resolve booth expand your aura’s to 20’. Use the feat Shield Brace to allow you to use a two handed weapon and still gain the benefit of using a shield.
Purchasing +3 full plate and a +3 shield costs 19,820 gold, while purchasing +4 full plate costs 17,650 gold. That extra 2,170 gold give you an additional 4 AC. This also gives you an extra magic item slot to get other defensive enchantments. Once you factor in the defensive feats I suggested you gain an additional 3 AC for a total of 7 more AC. That is a 35% reduction in your chance to be hit. This is probably not enough so that the character never gets hit, but it does mean that fewer hits will get through and equally important is fewer critical hits will be confirmed.
Pick up a boots of striding and springing to boost your movement so that you are not easily maneuvered around.
Your choice of weapon is also be important. If you want to go for damage then go with the Nodachi for the 18-20 crit range. The other alternative is to go for a reach weapon, in which case the Bardiche would be the best choice.
Don’t forget about your spells to boost your damage. Bless Weapon is an excellent example of what you should be looking for. Auto confirming a critical hit vs an evil opponent is a huge advantage, especially if you have improved critical for a Nodachi, or other high threat weapon. Also look at widen aura’s especially if you took the aura related feats I recommended.
If mythic rules are used go for the guardian path. Absorb blow and armored might are going to significantly increase your defenses.
Child of War does not qualify for Eldritch Knight. Eldritch Knight requires proficiency with ALL martial weapons. Child of War is not proficient with two handed marital weapon. Even if they never use a two handed weapon RAW they need to be proficient with them to take levels with Eldritch Knight.
Even if it did work your saves are kind of low for a tank, especial reflex saves. You also have no immunities or ways to reduce damage without spells. Your caster level is also taking a huge hit which means your spells are not going to be as effective as they should. This is not to say that if it worked it would not be a decent character, but it would be far from the ultimate tank.
For single target, I think it’s hard to beat a dirty tricks build. The enemies and the GM will hate you. And enemies will be too debuffed to hurt you much.
If you really want to tank, the spirit guide life oracle is surprisingly effective. Between double life links and double channels, your allies aren’t going down till you do. Any intelligent enemy will go after you first, and for anything else you can just charge in first.
High guardian fighter, dwarf.
Key picks
Dwarven Plate ASAP
Armored Juggernaut (Advanced armor training)
Armor specialization (advanced armor training)
Steel soul (+4 to saves vs spells, spell likes etc)
a 1d10 one handed dwarven weapon of some type that you make impact asap, i like the dorn dergar for reach but its feat intensive.
Some form of control (reach+trip shenanigans, whatever that solo tactics in advanced weapon training is + intercept charge, Bodyguard/swift aid etc)
You still need power attack, you still need improved shield bash and enough dex for TWF. But for raw "you cant kill me" thats the basic chassis. Above the curve AC, Dr/- = to half your level for the majority of your career ( basically from 14 to 19 you're stuck at dr 6) Saves comparable to a paladins
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I find it hard to go past Paladin, the only thing they're missing is feats.
I did build a level 11 character who was a Paladin-8/Monk-2/Fighter-1 (Hospitaler/Unbreakable/Scaled-Fist-Unchained) who got all the usual Paladin goodies but also had Improved Stalwart, Crane Style and a trait that gives +1 Dodge to AC when fighting defensively.
He was a Full BAB character who could take -2 to hit for DR:10/- (or just +5 dodge bonus to AC if that was more useful), he had saves of +20/+14/+14 (with evasion if not wearing armour) and he could LoH 17 times per day for 7d6+14 (~38.5) points of healing each, which is a total of ~650hp per day from LoH.
He would usually wander around with Heavy Armour and a reach weapon, but could go unarmed totally fine.
I never actually played him, but he would have been pretty tough to kill. He had Ultimate Mercy, so taking out the party meant having to take him out. I don't think he had spectacular damage output outside of Smiting though, so I don't know how well it really would have gone.
Oh he also had Energy Resistance 4 vs Acid, Cold, Fire and Electricity, just for funsies.
At lower levels (1-8) I'd say a mounted Mobile Bulwark style user is definitely one of the stronger tank builds possible. You're protecting both yourself and your mount from attacks with Total Cover (as you're considering to be sharing the same space), and thanks to being mounted you don't lose mobility even though you use up your move action each round.
But more generally Paladins are in a great spot thanks to their self healing and condition removal. The best tank is their own healer.
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I agree with avr that if you want actual builds then a level range is a good starting point.
When I think of a "tank" in Pathfinder, I don't think about how much damage they can soak or heal (because there's no guarantee the enemies will attack you, especially intelligent ones), I think of how much damage and how many effects they can mitigate and prevent from even happening to themselves or the group, and I think the best way to do that is with an offensive approach. Enemies can't cause damage when they're dead, or debuffed to the point of worthlessness, so I like a Dirty Tricks Master for a "tank".
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This is my idea of an ultimate dirty trickster that lays on the hurty hurt. I might need someone to check my math with the Unarmed Strike damage at each level, I'm pretty sure I got it right though.
25pt buy
Str 20 (18 +2 racial)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 11
Racial Traits:
Swap out w/e you want, but we want to keep Intimidating +2
Traits:
Dangerously Curious (UMD Class Skill)
Fate's Favored (swap Orc Ferocity for Sacred Tattoo = +2 saves)
Skills:
Intimidate (Max)
UMD (Max)
In this build, we want to maximize damage output while being a debuffing monstrosity, because we want to kill things quickly, and if they can't be killed quickly, they're still worthless.
Feats, Class Abilities, & Items per level:
Lvl1Brawler1 - Power Attack, Unarmed: 1d6
Lvl2Brawler2 - Bonus Combat Feat: Dirty Fighting, Brawler's Flurry (+1 attack)
Lvl3Brawler - Weapon Focus: Unarmed, Maneuver Training: Dirty Trick +1
Lvl4Brawler4 - AC +, Unarmed: 1d8, +1 Str
Lvl5Brawler5 - Improved Dirty Trick, Bonus Combat Feat: Dazzling Display
Lvl6Brawler6 - MF: 2 feats (move), 1 feat (swift)
At this level, we want to pick up Monk's Robes (13,000gp) and increase our Unarmed to 1d10 and AC: +2. From this level going forward, you can use Martial Flexibility to plug in Quick Dirty Trick whenever you need it.
Lvl7Brawler7 - Cornugon Smash, Maneuver Training: Dirty Trick +2, Trip +1
At this level, we get a +1 Cruel AoMF (8,000g), Belt of Physical Strength +2 (4,000), and our Unarmed becomes 2d6.
With Cornugon Smash and +1 Cruel weapon, we get Shaken/Sicken Combo for -4 Att/Saves/Skills/AbilChecks & -2 damage. Also, whenever you kill someone or knock them unconscious, you get 5 temp HP from Cruel enchant. So it's like 5 DR/- for 10 minutes for one attack after every kill. So this is a nice survivability boost and also makes it easier for your casters to land spells.
Lvl8Brawler8 - Shatter Defenses, Improved Brawler's Flurry (+2 attacks), +1 Str
At this level, we grab a couple wands: Wand of Stone Jaw x25 charges (7,875g), Wand of Enlarge Person x25 charges(375gp). Our Unarmed and AC becomes: Unarmed: 2d6 (3d6 w/ Enlarged, 4d6 w/ Stone Jaw, or 6d6 with Enlarge person+Stone Jaw), AC +3.
This is a minor-Milestone level for this build because we now have 4 attacks with Brawler's Flurry, Shatter Defenses, which causes targets to lose their Dex to AC/CMD and lose any Dodge to AC, AND we can use MF to plug in Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge or Quick Dirty Trick + whatever. So if you were having trouble hitting with your iterative attacks before, the Flat-Footed condition will help this out quite a bit.
Lvl9Slayer(Bounty Hunter)1 - Greater Dirty Trick, Studied Target (Move)
We switch gears abruptly at level 9 to pick up Slayer Bounty Hunter archetype, but trust me it's worth it at Slayer3.
Lvl10Slayer(Bounty Hunter)2 -
We don't pick up a feat this level, but the Bounty Hunter 2 ability trades your Slayer Talent to allow you to make a Dirty Trick in lieu of Sneak Attack vs. your Studied Target. At this level with WBL, you can afford a +3 Weapon Enchant (24,000) with all the aforementioned items and still have about 6,850gp to spare.
Lvl11Slayer(Bounty Hunter)3 - Dirty Tricks Master, 1d6 SnA
This level is where this build is essentially complete because your Dirty Tricks just got turned up to 11 and broke off the knob, your unarmed damage output is optimized, and anything after this is icing on the cake. At this level, pick up two items: Belt of Giant Str +4 (12,000), Boots of Speed (12,000g), and with appropriate WBL you should have 2,50gp leftover. Hopefully you haven't spent 2,850gp in 5star hotels and an abundance of hirelings by this point :P
You now have 6 Attacks (w/ Haste), MF: 2 feats (Kitsune Style/Tricks or Pummeling Style/Charge, whichever one you need).
Attack:
+11 BAB
+8 Str score: 26
-3 Power Attack
-2 TWF
+3 Enchant
+1 Studied Target
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Haste
+20 to attack (+1 Str, -1 Size while Enlarged, unchanged)
Dirty Tricks CMB:
+11 BAB
+8 Str: 26
+3 Enchant
+1 Studied Target
+1 Weapon Focus
+4 Imp/Greater Dirty Trick
+2 Maneuver Training (Dirty Trick)
+1 DT in Lieu of SnA
+1 Haste
+1 Enlarged (+1 Str, -1 att Size, +1 CMB Size)
+32 CMB Dirty Trick (+1 Enlarged) (+4 while Flanking)
Damage:
2d6 (or 4d6 Stone Jaw) (or 6d6 Enlarged)
+8 Str
+6 PA (+3 PA for Offhand)
+3 Enchant
+1 Studied Target
(+1 damage while Enlarged)
2d6 + 18
6d6 + 19 Stone Jaw + Enlarged
Bounty Hunter2 ability allows us to make a Dirty Trick in lieu of a SnA, and you want to get them Flat Footed asap so you can start trading those SnA's for Dirty Tricks, which they should be flat-footed with your 2nd successful attack after a successful Intimidation on your 1st attack. With Kitsune Style/Tricks plugged in from MF, you apply two Dirty Tricks at a time. With Dirty Tricks Master, you cause any previous DT condition to get worsened by one step. So...
1st attack: 2d6+18 or 6d6+19 dmg + Shaken (Cornugon)
2nd attack: 2d6+18 or 6d6+16 dmg + Sicken/Flat-footed (Cruel/Shatter Defenses)
3rd attack: 2d6+18 or 6d6+19 dmg + DT: Blind/Sicken
4th attack: 2d6+18 or 6d6+16 dmg + DT: Sicken->Nauseate/Entangle
5th attack: 2d6+18 or 6d6+19 dmg + DT: Entangle->Pinned/Dazzle
6th attack: 2d6+18 or 6d6+16 dmg + DT: Dazzle->Daze/Shaken
If all your attacks and Dirty Tricks land, which they *mostly-should* because your Att/CMB is redonk and attacking FFAC most of the time with your iterative attacks, you should now have every single Dirty Trick debuff on the target and worsened, except for Frightened from Shakened. You really only need to land Blind/Sicken and then Sicken->Nauseate/Entangle though. Nauseated can only take Move Actions, and Greater Dirty Tricks causes your DT's to only be removed with Standard Actions. So your opponent is essentially out of the fight once they're Nauseated.
You can still do something similar to this with Pummeling Style/Charge instead of Kitsune Style/Tricks, but you just won't be able to do two DT's for each SnA like you can with Kitsune Tricks, so with Pummeling Style/Charge you can charge + full attack but you'll only do 1 DT per SnA instead.
Lvl12Brawler9 Intimidating Prowess (+Str to Intimidate), +1 Str[/b]
Pick up Dueling Enchantment (18,000gp) on your AoMF to double your Enhancement bonus towards Dirty Trick CMB and don't forget to give yourself a +1 from Fate's Favored (and maybe a Permanent Fly Enchant on yourself? 7500gp).
At this level, you have options: go back to Slayer7 to get the Study as Swift, or continue with Brawler. I'm going to continue with Brawler because I would prefer to be using Swifts for MF and switching Styles between w/e other styles I pick up with MF, so this is entirely up to your preference here on out.
Lvl13Brawler10 - Kitsune Style, MF: 3 Feats, 2feats (swift), 1feat (free)
+4 Weapon Enchant (22,000)
Lvl14Brawler11 - Bonus Combat Feat: Kitsune Tricks, MT: Dirty Tricks +3, Trip +2, Bull Rush +1
With Monk Robes, unarmed becomes: 2d8 (6d8 Stone Jaw + Enlarge)
Lvl15Brawler12 Any Feat, MF: 3feats (swift), 1feat (Immediate Action)
Lvl16Brawler 13 - +1 Str, AC +4
==================================
Also, at any point in the build, dip 1 level in Oracle of Battle and get Surprising Charge for an Immediate Action Charge 1/day. Level 12 might be the best time for this. Also a dip in MoMS Monk would be nice at higher levels for Kitsune + any style (Dragon or Pummeling, or even Cloak and Dagger)
When I think of a "tank" in Pathfinder, I
[...]
think the best way to do that is with an offensive approach.
Your definition of a tank sounds suspiciously close to the opposite of a tank. Sure you're not thinking of a frontliner?
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also.
[spoiler*=name]
your build here
[/spoiler]
remove the asterix (*)
your build here
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When I think of a "tank" in Pathfinder, I
[...]
think the best way to do that is with an offensive approach.Your definition of a tank sounds suspiciously close to the opposite of a tank. Sure you're not thinking of a frontliner?
====
also.
** spoiler omitted **
remove the asterix (*)
** spoiler omitted **
Good idea, fixed ;)
When I think of a "tank" in Pathfinder, I
[...]
think the best way to do that is with an offensive approach.Your definition of a tank sounds suspiciously close to the opposite of a tank. Sure you're not thinking of a frontliner?
Well, when I think of a "Tank", I think of mitigating the opponent's action economy so they can't cause damage or get any effects off, rather than just soaking up a ton of damage and effects through high AC and saves. It's not like this build can't also do that. You basically just stop any damage/effects from happening as a Proactive measure, rather than a Reactive measure. I think of someone who's so dangerous that they cannot be ignored, otherwise he's going to wreck your whole day if you don't deal with him pronto.
There's no guarantee that enemies are going to focus on the plate-wearing unkillable monstrosity. Intelligent enemies will just abuse their lack of mobility and go around them.
When I think of a 'tank' in Pathfinder, I don't see a single character build but a well designed and armored, blunt HAMMER driven into the enemy by the combined force and support of the party behind him. Of the group, the person that steps into the role requires the backing of every other party member. All they need to worry about when they are up front is keeping the enemy's attention and hitting them until they stop moving.
There are simply too many different ways to build a party that can support each other to outline them all. For a well rounded team, I usually envision two pairs of characters that are designed to work together, and to work in tandem with the other pair. Your 'tank' needs a buddy in melee combat with him, preferably one that has some emergency healing (if the tank doesn't possess that himself). Your battlefield control character should be paired up with a ranged attacker (preferably a switch-hitter) so that they are not left open. If you have a fifth character, fill in as needed.
Now, if I had to BUILD a character that I think could fit the role of a 'tank' character, I would probably use Bloodrager as a chassis, use the Id Rager archetype to pick up the Kindness emotional focus, and slap on VMC Paladin for added measure. His flanking buddy would probably be a martial oriented Shaman of some sorts with defensive hexes and teamwork feats to allow him to cast personal only spells on the Bloodrager. The two would share HP via shield other.
Yup, hence my Monk. Highest AC in our group right now, ignores damage on successful Reflex save, and hits like a truck, though not quite as much as our designated monster masher.When I think of a "tank" in Pathfinder, I
[...]
think the best way to do that is with an offensive approach.Your definition of a tank sounds suspiciously close to the opposite of a tank. Sure you're not thinking of a frontliner?
Well, when I think of a "Tank", I think of mitigating the opponent's action economy so they can't cause damage or get any effects off, rather than just soaking up a ton of damage and effects through high AC and saves. It's not like this build can't also do that. You basically just stop any damage/effects from happening as a Proactive measure, rather than a Reactive measure. I think of someone who's so dangerous that they cannot be ignored, otherwise he's going to wreck your whole day if you don't deal with him pronto.
There's no guarantee that enemies are going to focus on the plate-wearing unkillable monstrosity. Intelligent enemies will just abuse their lack of mobility and go around them.
What do you think of the Ultimate Dirty Trickster build I put a couple posts up? Click the spoiler button :)
At this level, we get a +1 Cruel AoMF (8,000g)
AoMF costs double that of a normal weapon (16,000 for a +2 effect), so you should get Handwraps for your IUS build instead.
Well, when I think of a "Tank", I think of mitigating the opponent's action economy so they can't cause damage or get any effects off, rather than just soaking up a ton of damage and effects through high AC and saves.
I get what you're saying, that you shouldn't disregard your offense, but your proposed build goes in the opposite direction by a large margin. Pretty much no resource have been placed on defense, and you haven't even mentioned what your AC/saves are. It's very effective for dispatched enemies, but it would more aptly be described as a "glass cannon" rather than "tank".
What does your character do if they're hit with any will save?
At this level, we get a +1 Cruel AoMF (8,000g)AoMF costs double that of a normal weapon (16,000 for a +2 effect), so you should get Handwraps for your IUS build instead.
Well, when I think of a "Tank", I think of mitigating the opponent's action economy so they can't cause damage or get any effects off, rather than just soaking up a ton of damage and effects through high AC and saves.I get what you're saying, that you shouldn't disregard your offense, but your proposed build goes in the opposite direction by a large margin. Pretty much no resource have been placed on defense, and you haven't even mentioned what your AC/saves are. It's very effective for dispatched enemies, but it would more aptly be described as a "glass cannon" rather than "tank".
What does your character do if they're hit with any will save?
That's a great question. It's more of a "good defense by having a good offense" sort of build. It would really come down to your group make-up and their preparedness for what's about to happen to your tank, though. I think any group worth its salt ought to have the mindset of "keep the tank moving and tanking" and would be prepared to buff him based on any number of conditions and be additionally prepared to remove debuffs via Dispel Magic, Remove Blindness/Curse/Disease, Break Enchantment, w/e.
In that proposed Dirty Trickster build, the Brawler's AC wouldn't be optimal but it wouldn't be lacking either (and his Sicken/Shaken + complete shutdown via DT would afford him a great amount of survivability), and his Fort/Refl Saves probably would be high marks as well (because Slayer is +3 Fort/Refl and +1 Will at lvl3), but his low Will Save *could and would* be exploited by any Intelligent enemy (there isn't a single build that doesn't have a weakness of some kind, and this DT Master's weakness would definitely be the Will Save). So this would be something that the group has to actively monitor and have contingencies in place for the event that he becomes Dominated or otherwise conquered by a poor Will Save, such as countering those effects with a Dispel Magic to remove a debuff or a Remove Paralysis for a Hold Person spell.
I wouldn't consider this 'tank' to be a glass cannon per se, because as soon as the tides turn against him, he can MF into Endurance/Diehard + Toughness as a move action, depending on his level, and then use his Standard as a Move Action to get within his next melee-range that round (the next round affording him a full attack action), OR even using a Move action to gain Iron Will+Improved Iron Will, and then using his Standard Action as a Movement Action to get within melee range of his next combatant. He is not a glass cannon; he can react to any real threat on the fly with straight up feat selection. And of course, he still has the option to run and GTFO if the heat in the kitchen is too hot.
=================================================
Edit: This build has a minor epiphany at level 8 because now you can Pummeling Style/Charge, and then a major epiphany at level 11 because you can use Kitsune Style/Tricks to get two DT's per attack with the Bounty Hunter2 ability to use a DT in lieu of an SnA, and you already have Shatter Defenses. When this guy starts using MF at level 8+ to plug in any 2 feats he needs for a particular encounter, it's going to be really powerful. Level 11+ is when the entire build comes online, and that's when he can do two DT's per attack with Kitsune Style/Tricks. There isn't a single CR11-14 mob that can weather that storm in my own estimation, and if you find one, I'd like to hear about it.
Ryze Kuja,
With Dirty Tricks and Shatter Defenses, it really feels like you should be doing Sneak Attack Damage.
It’s at your option. You can cause SnA damage or cause Dirty Tricks.
I wouldn't consider this 'tank' to be a glass cannon per se, because as soon as the tides turn against him, he can MF into Endurance/Diehard + Toughness as a move action, depending on his level,
Remember, you can only flex into combat feats.
That's a great question. It's more of a "good defense by having a good offense" sort of build. It would really come down to your group make-up and their preparedness for what's about to happen to your tank, though. I think any group worth its salt ought to have the mindset of "keep the tank moving and tanking" and would be prepared to buff him based on any number of conditions and be additionally prepared to remove debuffs via Dispel Magic, Remove Blindness/Curse/Disease, Break Enchantment, w/e.
And I believe that's the difference between simply a frontliner and a tank. If your party has to invest a lot of resources (almost every round) to keep you up and going then you're not a tank.
There isn't a single CR11-14 mob that can weather that storm in my own estimation, and if you find one, I'd like to hear about it.
What about... two monsters? Or one that goes first?
As you alluded to, offense is the best defense. So if the CR11-14 mob simply puts you out of the fight before you get to act then they've technically succeeded in weathering that storm.
When I think of a "tank" in Pathfinder, I don't think about how much damage they can soak or heal (because there's no guarantee the enemies will attack you, especially intelligent ones), I think of how much damage and how many effects they can mitigate and prevent from even happening to themselves or the group, and I think the best way to do that is with an offensive approach. Enemies can't cause damage when they're dead, or debuffed to the point of worthlessness, so I like a Dirty Tricks Master for a "tank".
Going back to this, I think the difference here is that you don't think of a "Tank" as being useful, and so you've made a useful front-liner instead of a "Tank".
A "Tank" is someone who can take punishment and remain in the fight, this can (and in some cases MUST) be accomplished in a few ways:
High HP
Self Healing (eg. LoH/Ferver/etc)
High AC (Regular/Flat-Footed/Touch)
Damage Reduction (or Energy Resistance)
Miss Chance
Er ... the other Miss Chance (eg. Mirror Image)
High Saves
Reduced Effect abilities (eg. Evasion)
... And I'm sure there are others.
Someone who has all these characteristics would be a great "Tank", but they wouldn't necessarily be a great character. If they have no offensive or support capabilities then all they've done is ensure their own survival, without really contributing to the combat.
With that in mind, it's a good idea to ensure your "Tank" has some offensive capabilities to go with their "Tankiness".
Okay, if I was going to turn this guy into a tank, what do you think about Oracle of Battle or Invuln Rager level 13+ instead?
25pt buy
Str 20 (18 +2 racial)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 11
Racial Traits:
Swap out w/e you want, but we want to keep Intimidating +2
Traits:
Dangerously Curious (UMD Class Skill)
Fate's Favored (swap Orc Ferocity for Sacred Tattoo = +2 saves)
Skills:
Intimidate (Max)
UMD (Max)
Feats:
Lvl1Brawler1 - Power Attack, Unarmed: 1d6
Lvl2Brawler2 - Bonus Combat Feat: Combat Expertise (swapped for Dirty Fighting), Brawler's Flurry (+1 attack)
Lvl3Brawler3 - Weapon Focus: Unarmed, Maneuver Training: Dirty Trick +1
Lvl4Brawler4 - AC +1, Unarmed: 1d8, +1 Str
Lvl5Brawler5 - Improved Dirty Trick, Bonus Combat Feat: Dazzling Display
Lvl6Brawler6 - MF: 2 feats (move), 1 feat (swift)
Lvl7Brawler7 - Cornugon Smash, Maneuver Training: Dirty Trick +2, Trip +1
Lvl8Brawler8 - Shatter Defenses, Improved Brawler's Flurry (+2 attacks), +1 Str
Lvl9Slayer(Bounty Hunter)1 - Greater Dirty Trick, Studied Target (Move)
Lvl10Slayer(Bounty Hunter)2 -
Lvl11Slayer(Bounty Hunter)3 - Dirty Tricks Master, 1d6 SnA
Lvl12UnbreakableFighter1 - Free Feats: Endurance/Diehard, +1 Str
And then go either Oracle of Battle or Invuln Rager for the DR Stacking level 13+.
I can fix my Cha to allow for casting 4th level spells, and then plan on trashing most of my spells for Cure spells.
Lvl13Oracle (Battle Mystery)1 - Feat: Stalwart, Revelation: Surprising Charge (1/day Immediate Action Charge)
Lvl14Oracle2 - Mystery Spell: Enlarge Person
Lvl15Oracle3 - Feat: Improved Stalwart, Revelation: Iron Skin (DR10/Adamantine - would this stack with Imp Stalwart because it's a class feature?)
Lvl16Oracle4 - Mystery Spell: Fog Cloud
Lvl17Oracle5 - Feat: Kitsune Style
Lvl18Oracle6 - Mystery Spell: Magic Vestment
Lvl19Oracle7 - Feat: Kitsune Tricks, Revelation: War Sight, (Surprising Charge becomes 2/day)
Lvl20Oracle8 - Mystery Spell: Wall of Fire
I can fix my Con to satisfy prereqs for feats.
Lvl13Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager)1 - Feat: Stalwart
Lvl14Barbarian2 - DR1/-, Raging Vitality
Lvl15Barbarian3 - Feat: Improved Stalwart
Lvl16Barbarian4 - DR2/-, Superstition (at lvl 16, I have DR12/-)
Lvl17Barbarian5 - Feat: Kitsune Style
Lvl18Barbarian6 - DR3/-, Guarded Life
Lvl19Barbarian7 - Feat: Kitsune Tricks
Lvl20Barbarian8 - DR4/- Greater Guarded Life(at level 20, I have DR16/-)
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Or would you do something entirely different?
How do you make people attack you? I had a fellow player in an AP and he was running just a standard Dwarf Fighter but his build and equipment purchases were all around tanking. He took a reach weapon and had decent accuracy with a strength bow he carried, but of course his primary damage was from the dwarven waraxe reach weapon he was carrying.
The problem was, between a lot of our foes being spellcasters, his character moving at a 20' speed and foes seeing him wearing dwarven plate and the other characters wearing leather or no armor at all, he rarely made it into melee. We ended the game at level 8, just after he'd purchased some boots of Striding and Springing along with another AC upgrade, but maybe at higher level he might've found a magic item to force foes to single him out in combat, I don't know.
Bottom line, if you're playing a tank, how do you make sure your investment in defense pays off by making the enemies attack you?
^---- I completely agree. And the answer is: be the scariest, most un-ignorable monster on the battlefield.
People talk a lot about killing the guy with the least armour, but that's 100% a metagame thing if they haven't seen their opponents act yet. The average old guy who walks around in robes is a more likely to be a scribe (expert NPC class) than a wizard, while the guy in armour with a sword is likely to hit you with a sword if you don't take him out quick-smart.
Or if all my friends are taking out the archer, but the Fighter is swinging at me you better bet I'm gonna focus on the Fighter for the forseeable future. Team tactics only matter to me if I survive to see the outcome. If that fighter can't hit to save his life then we can ignore him, but we don't know he's so crap until we see him swing and miss a couple of times.
Now this isn't to say ALL enemies have to be tactically inept, but neither should they all be chess champions who gamble with their lives for the greater good of the bandit group they joined 3 days ago.
As to how you MAKE the enemies attack you, that's often about positioning.
I play a Bloodrager in our current game, and I nearly always start the combat up front. If there's a surprise round I'm usually the first target. If we get a surprise round I'm right in their face which again makes me a target. If I'm in a doorway I'm often their only target (I once spent 4 rounds going full defence in a doorway to delay 6 enemies while my party finished off the previous 6). I usually don't Rage for at least the first round of combat since I'm taking more hits than I'm giving at this point.
Once I have them attacking me I'll switch it up, swap my two-handed Battleaxe stance for an axe/shield stsnce and fight defensively. I still hit hard enough that they don't want to take risks, but my accuracy (and therefore my DPR) just went way down. If I can't stand in a doorway or block their path to my allies I'll move to the centre of the room where they can surround me - which is fine for me with Improved Uncanny Dodge. I'm doing less than stellar damage, but the enemy are all focusing my high-ish AC and high HP while ignoring the Wizard, Gunslinger and Bard ... net gain for the party.
Now at a certain point in the fight any clever enemies probably realise I'm not the biggest threat, but my AC isn't so high that they've never hit me, so they often try to "finish me off" before moving to a new target. If they stay with me then great, my allies keep doing their thing, but if they move toward my allies, also great. My allies have had 2-4 rounds of shooting/casting (occasionally buffing me) risk free, so now they return the favour by providing me with a flanking bonus as I finally Rage.
I should say that this character isn't built as a Tank, and looking at his class and planned build the "Tank" role will eventually be a lot less practical, but for now he's probably soaked 50-60% of the attacks against the party. Later levels will see him become more of a frontline debuffer and damage dealer, but his HP should keep him fairly tanky throughout. Also weirdly I ended up with the highest will save without really meaning to (+11 at level 7 while raging).
A cautious wizard should wear monk-looking clothes. Smart enemies probably won't go for a monk before other party members.
Or would you do something entirely different?
There are some mechanical issues with relying on Bounty Hunter Slayer to get your Dirty Trick maneuvers, and you might want to look into more efficient ways to trigger Sneak Attack than Shatter Defenses.
Here's your standard attack routine, assuming you're full-attacking an enemy you haven't spent a move action to make your Studied Target. Your given attack bonus was +20, so before you've applied Studied Target it's a +19 vs average CR 11 monster AC of 25.
1st attack (+19 vs 25): Intimidate as a free action.
2nd attack (+19 vs 25): Trigger Shatter Defenses, enemy is flat-footed to coming attacks (worth +3 to attack).
3rd attack (+19 vs 22): Deal sneak attack, apply studied target as an immediate action. Unable to use your Dirty Trick class feature since you must have chosen to use it before you attacked.
+your three remaining attacks at +15/+15/+10
Before you can attempt a Dirty Trick maneuver on (another) successful attack, you first need to have hit three times. This has a 50% chance of happening (with your first three attacks), and just 30% without Haste. Your chance of getting off two maneuvers to trigger Dirty Trick Master in one round is actually very small.
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I'd recommend Quick Dirty Trick and a dip into one of the classes that gives you another maneuver when full-attacking. MM Monk and Vigilante both work, can't recall if there's more atm.
Or would you do something entirely different?There are some mechanical issues with relying on Bounty Hunter Slayer to get your Dirty Trick maneuvers, and you might want to look into more efficient ways to trigger Sneak Attack than Shatter Defenses.
Here's your standard attack routine, assuming you're full-attacking an enemy you haven't spent a move action to make your Studied Target. Your given attack bonus was +20, so before you've applied Studied Target it's a +19 vs average CR 11 monster AC of 25.
1st attack (+19 vs 25): Intimidate as a free action.
2nd attack (+19 vs 25): Trigger Shatter Defenses, enemy is flat-footed to coming attacks (worth +3 to attack).
3rd attack (+19 vs 22): Deal sneak attack, apply studied target as an immediate action. Unable to use your Dirty Trick class feature since you must have chosen to use it before you attacked.
+your three remaining attacks at +15/+15/+10Before you can attempt a Dirty Trick maneuver on (another) successful attack, you first need to have hit three times. This has a 50% chance of happening (with your first three attacks), and just 30% without Haste. Your chance of getting off two maneuvers to trigger Dirty Trick Master in one round is actually very small.
====
I'd recommend Quick Dirty Trick and a dip into one of the classes that gives you another maneuver when full-attacking. MM Monk and Vigilante both work, can't recall if there's more atm.
Blind is -2 AC, Pinned is -4 AC, Entangle is -4 Dex (but they're already denied dex from FF), and I can apply the +1 from ST to the attack that deals the SnA as an Immediate Action, so I could increase my accuracy if I rearrange the order that I apply DT's a bit: so instead I'll go Blind first, Entangle->Pin 2nd, Sicken-> Nauseate 3rd, Dazzle->Daze 4th, Shaken->Frighten 5th, Deafen 6th.
1st attack: +19 attack vs 25AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+19 dmg + Shaken (Cornugon)
2nd attack: +19 attack vs 25AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+16 dmg + Sicken/Flat-footed (Cruel/Shatter Defenses -3AC)
3rd attack: +20 attack vs 22AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+19 dmg + DT: Blind -2AC/Entangle
4th attack: +15 attack vs 20AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+16 dmg + DT: Entangle->Pinned -4AC/Sicken
5th attack: +15 attack vs 16AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+19 dmg + DT: Sicken->Nauseate/Dazzle
6th attack: +10 attack vs 16AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+16 dmg + DT: Dazzle->Daze/Shaken
Vs. a monster with higher AC, I could drop Power Attack after they're Flat-footed for another +3 to hit during the iterative attacks, but I'm pretty happy with this accuracy. If I miss one or two attacks, it's not the end of the world. In round 2, all attacks have 95% chance to hit except for the last attack. The biggest thing is to land those first two power attacks to get them FFed.
Quick Dirty Trick would be useful in a build like this, but I think it would be overkill. I could use MF to get it in a pinch though.
This is all without considering buffs and debuffs from allies as well. I think in a group of 4-5 PC’s, a character like this would really shine.
Blind is -2 AC, Pinned is -4 AC, Entangle is -4 Dex (but they're already denied dex from FF), and I can apply the +1 from ST to the attack that deals the SnA as an Immediate Action, so I could increase my accuracy if I rearrange the order that I apply DT's a bit:
/.../
3rd attack: +20 attack vs 22AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+19 dmg + DT: Blind -2AC/Entangle
You won't get to make a Dirty Trick attempt with your third attack, and you don't add the Studied Target bonus to your attack roll. Here's why.
If a slayer deals sneak attack damage to a target, he can study that target as an immediate action, allowing him to apply his studied target bonuses against that target (including to the normal weapon damage roll).
The moment your third attack hits the flat-footed enemy, you deal sneak attack damage. That allows you to study that enemy as an immediate action, but your attack roll has already been made so you wouldn't add the Studied Target bonus to this attack roll.
At 2nd level, anytime a bounty hunter is able to deal sneak attack damage to a studied target, he can instead attempt to hamper the target. The bounty hunter must declare that he’s using this ability before the attack roll is made. If the attack hits, it deals damage normally, but instead of rolling sneak attack damage, the bounty hunter can attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver against the studied target as a free action, adding 1 to the combat maneuver check for each die of the bounty hunter’s sneak attack damage. This combat maneuver does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces the slayer talent gained at 2nd level.
And you can't use your Dirty Trick ability since the enemy wasn't a studied target when you attacked, so you couldn't have declared that you were using this ability by then.
Vs. a monster with higher AC, I could drop Power Attack after they're Flat-footed for another +3 to hit during the iterative attacks, but I'm pretty happy with this accuracy.
Power Attack lasts until your next turn when activated. So you'd take the PA penalty to all your attacks, and your Dirty Trick Maneuvers.
Ah yeah, good catch.
So instead, it would go:
1st attack: +19 attack vs 25AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+19 dmg + Shaken (Cornugon)
2nd attack: +19 attack vs 25AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+16 dmg + Sicken/Flat-footed (Cruel/Shatter Defenses -3AC)
3rd attack: +19 attack vs 22AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+19 dmg + Study as Immediate Action
4th attack: +15 attack vs 22AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+16 dmg + DT: Blind -2AC/Entangle
5th attack: +15 attack vs 20AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+19 dmg + DT: Entangle->Pinned -4AC/Sicken
6th attack: +10 attack vs 16AC, 2d6+18 or 6d6+16 dmg + DT: Sicken->Nauseate/Dazzle
I wonder if there are any items that can help you get Studied Target faster.
I don't know about ultimate, but I'm doing a very effective job in an Iron Gods game with a gunslinger (gun tank) 5/warpriest (forgepriest) 8.
I crafted Celestial Plate Armor (from Curse of the Crimson Throne; between its naturally high max Dex bonus and Armor Training from Gun Tank, its max Dex is +7), I have a +2 buckler, a Dex of 22, a Ring of Protection +2, and Dodge, which puts me around a 34. With Fervor, I can swift cast Ironskin for +5 Natural Armor, Channel Vigor for Haste (another +1 AC), which gets me to AC 40. I sometimes use Defending Bone for DR 5/Bludgeoning. If it gets tough, I can use Sacred Armor (extra +2 for Sacred Armor, since I crafted the armor I'm wearing). Fighting defensively is also on the table.
I made my own pistol, which I enchanted with Greater Reliable and Distance, so I target touch AC at 40'.
The Celestial Plate lets me cast Fly, and I have Boots of Striding and Springing, so mobility isn't really an issue.
My saves are quite good (Fort 14, Reflex 14, Will 12 with a cloak of resistance +2), and being a dwarf those are even higher against spells and poison.
A barbarian boss we just fought in the last session needed a 20 to hit me. He hit me once for 19 (I negated his crit with Gun Tank's Resolve). I hit him consistently with every attack (targeting touch AC), crit once, and did 300 damage over I think 6 rounds (after his DR). Not really damage you can ignore, even if it weren't one-on-one combat. With the Deft Shootist Deed, I wasn't provoking by shooting him at point blank range.
Had he managed to hit me much, I had plenty of expendable spell slots for Cures that I could, again, swift cast (not provoking) using Fervor.
Blinded: The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)...
Sneak Attack: At 3rd level, if a slayer catches an opponent unable to defend itself effectively from his attack, he can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The slayer’s attack deals extra damage anytime his target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not)...
Dirty Trick (Ex): At 2nd level, anytime a bounty hunter is able to deal sneak attack damage to a studied target, he can instead attempt to hamper the target. The bounty hunter must declare that he’s using this ability before the attack roll is made. If the attack hits, it deals damage normally, but instead of rolling sneak attack damage, the bounty hunter can attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver against the studied target as a free action, adding 1 to the combat maneuver check for each die of the bounty hunter’s sneak attack damage.
So, the dirty tricks bounty hunter slayer always goes for blind first, when using quick dirty trick.
I don't know about ultimate, but I'm doing a very effective job in an Iron Gods game with a gunslinger (gun tank) 5/warpriest (forgepriest) 8.
Yeah I think Gunslingers generally make pretty good secondary Tanks. Between a focus on DEX and the ability to fight defensively with basically no penalty they end up pretty hard to hit. Also they have d10hp for some inexplicable reason =P Yours is even tankier than most.
The multiclass to Warpriest helps with saves, gives self-healing and gives you spells to play with. Looks pretty good.
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A cautious wizard should wear monk-looking clothes. Smart enemies probably won't go for a monk before other party members.
In the longest running game i was ever in, the necromancer wore clothes that made him look like a ranger and went around calling himself Shadelyn Faeradeth, friend of the forest. Armed with a longsword and shortsword.
Any low-level tank builds?
Gnome
Dex>Con=Wis>Int=Str>Cha
Alternate Racial Traits:
Vivacious and Nosophobia. (+50% healed, +4 bonus vs poison/disease)
Trait:
Resilient Martyr (Religion, Vildeis)
Feats:
1 Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise (B), Escape Route (B), EWP: Elven Branched Spear
2 Pack Flanking (B), Social Grace
3 Healer's Hands
4
5 Signature Skill (Heal), Passing Grace (B), Hunter Tactics
====
Buy the Gloves of Healing and choose Heal for Social Grace. With a +2 Wis mod you will have a +19 total bonus at lv 5, which means you can auto-succeed on the DC 20 Treat Deadly Wounds check. This heals you for at least 45 HP (+6 in each ability score), and the overheal goes straight to your companion thanks to Passing Grace.
You can heal like this a number of times per day equal to your ranks in Knowledge: Planes, and the healing done increases with your HD and spikes at lv 10, 15, and 20. Take the Open Conduit feat for additional uses.
***
Any race without a Strength penalty, but Half-Elf is great for the FCB.
Str>Int=Con>Dex=Wis>Cha
Trait:
Armored Rider (to ignore the horrendous Tower Shield ACP on ride checks)
Feats:
1 Shield Focus, Mobile Bulwark Style (B)
2 Feather Subdomain
3 -- (retrained at lv 5)
4
5 Mobile Fortress, Boon Companion
Pet Feats:
1 Combat Reflexes
2 --- (undecided)
5 Friendly Switch
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Wield a Lance and Tower Shield, using your move action to set up Total Cover and your standard action to attack. Since you are considering to be sharing your mount's space you get to choose one of their sides to provide Total Cover, which you are sharing with them thanks to Mobile Fortress. Throw an Enlarge Person on your mount and three allies can hide behind it while you provide Total Cover to all five of you.
Standard battle tactic is to set up Total Cover, both of you attack, then retreat so the enemies are forced to approach you and provoke. Get your allies out of danger with Friendly Switch.
***