It's hard to put a level range on what I am asking for, because I am planning on it for the next AP (War for the Crown). I'm not worried about optimization for the first 5 levels, so I'd say he needs to be getting going from lvl 5 on.
Lots of good ideas, not all of which are compatible. My favorites include:
Paladin: smite, high saves, immunities, mercies, self-healing, esp w/ Fey Foundling.
Downside is they are feat-starved, MAD, # of LoH is level-dependent and you have to live w/ the paladin code. Still, 3 levels with Extra LoH feat would be cool, 4 if I wanted a couple 1st level spells.
Bloodragers and Barbs get rage, but nothing past medium armor without giving up stuff. I could take 2 levels along with Extra Rage and a Rage Power/Uncanny Dodge and be good. The dwarf FCB is nice.
Fighters appeal because they have a ton of feats, armor training and warrior spirit. Terrible skills. I also love the idea of riding something for mobility, which is made easier in dungeons with Undersized Mount. I like the idea of reach weapon and shield (somehow), Mobile Bulwark to protect my ride, High Guardian gives Combat Reflexes and lets you use STR for it.
The downside to any build with multiple classes is a reduced FCB per level. I can mitigate this with half-elf of course, but I prefer the idea of human or dwarf.
Just doesn't seem like they'd all place nice together, and I don't know how to make it all work.
J
It's hard to put a level range on what I am asking for, because I am planning on it for the next AP (War for the Crown). I'm not worried about optimization for the first 5 levels, so I'd say he needs to be getting going from lvl 5 on.
Lots of good ideas, not all of which are compatible. My favorites include:
Paladin: smite, high saves, immunities, mercies, self-healing, esp w/ Fey Foundling.
Downside is they are feat-starved, MAD, # of LoH is level-dependent and you have to live w/ the paladin code. Still, 3 levels with Extra LoH feat would be cool, 4 if I wanted a couple 1st level spells.Bloodragers and Barbs get rage, but nothing past medium armor without giving up stuff. I could take 2 levels along with Extra Rage and a Rage Power/Uncanny Dodge and be good. The dwarf FCB is nice.
Fighters appeal because they have a ton of feats, armor training and warrior spirit. Terrible skills. I also love the idea of riding something for mobility, which is made easier in dungeons with Undersized Mount. I like the idea of reach weapon and shield (somehow), Mobile Bulwark to protect my ride, High Guardian gives Combat Reflexes and lets you use STR for it.
The downside to any build with multiple classes is a reduced FCB per level. I can mitigate this with half-elf of course, but I prefer the idea of human or dwarf.
Just doesn't seem like they'd all place nice together, and I don't know how to make it all work.
J
What about an Oracle of Battle? Pretty similar to a Paladin, except not feat starved because Battle Revelations are actually pretty darn good. Great melee presence, plenty of heals and self buffs, condition removal, shield other, and none of the Lawful Stupid. And, you're a level 9 caster, so if/when you do get up to level 18+, you have access to Miracle, Gate, and True Resurrection.
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I'd go with a Kineticist with the Kinetic Knight archetype, start with Earth for your primary element (scaling DR for defense) then take Void as a secondary (scaling fortification and resistance to negative energy )
This will give you good AC from heavy armor and a shield, good DR from your earth elemental defense, good fortification reducing your odds of being crit, negative energy resistance is pretty rare and makes for a nice bonus. You will deal solid damage in combat, have a large threat area with Kinetic Whip, you'll have the option to switch to a touch based negative energy attack at higher levels for those enemies with high normal ACs. The build is also has almost no feat requirements, so you can tailor it with tank oriented feats pretty easily.
Pick a race with boosts to Str, Con or Wis(to boost your one weakness, will saves). I personally like Oread, fits the build flavor wise, it is an Outsider instead of humanoid, so half the dangerous will save spells don't work on them (Charm Person, Dominate Person, Hold Person).
Kinetic Knight is fine, but a regular dex based kineticist can be just as tanky, while also being a great switch hitter. Just take kinetic blade and weapon finesse at first level and you're good to go.
I've been prowling this thread for ideas for a player of mine. She is running a Barbarian 7/Bard 2 and is currently wearing +2 Hide armor, a Ring of Protection +1, has a Dex of 14, and has a Cloak of Resistance +1.
That's it.
Her non-raging AC is a 19. The party is APL 9. I get that Barbarians and Bards don't have the tankiest armor capabilities, but 19 seems really bad. This was confirmed recently when the party encountered a CR 11 black dragon which essentially removed 1/3 of the Bard-barian's non-raging HP with a single Vital Strike bite attack.
What options are there to tank up for this PC? She is normally a 2-h melee martial with a greataxe +2 if that helps. I'm thinking with only hide and Light armor on the table for this PC she should be relying on things like Concealment, Cover, and other "special effects" from spells and items. What advice should I give her?
At that level a wand of mirror image should be affordable and due to the bard levels, usable. With that AC it's not a great deal of use against multiple attacks but it's about as good as you can get against vital strikers. Make sure there's a familiar or similar in the party tasked with picking up the wand when she drops it to put both hands on the axe.
Intimidating the enemy to reduce their damage output might be in character and something she has at least the skill for. Feats or rage powers to improve that or to improve the action economy (e.g. Cornugon smash) might help - it depends a bit on what she has already.
No mention of the neck slot. An amulet of natural armor or an aegis of recovery might be an idea. I'm sure there are some boots which can give concealment, can't remember what they're called just now.
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Straight kineticist is slightly more versatile, but Kinetic Knight has some strong advantages if you want a tank focused build, like 0 burn Kinetic Blade from level 1, the Resolve ability really improves on their weakest save, heavy armor and a shield make it easier to get a high AC so you can focus on Con as your primary stat instead of having to rely on your dex.
If you go regular vanilla kineticist, you may consider switching your secondary element to something else instead of Void. Knight gives up supercharge, so you should basically never bother using a Composite blast, which an earth/void kineticist doesn't get one if you go earth blast/negative blast...a vanilla kineticist keeps supercharge, so starting at level 11 they can fire off a composite blast every turn, earth doesn't get a lot of good composite combos, but it is something to consider. Maybe go Earth/Earth/Water to get Metal blast early, then improved defenses later.
Paladin: smite, high saves, immunities, mercies, self-healing, esp w/ Fey Foundling.
Downside is they are feat-starved, MAD, # of LoH is level-dependent and you have to live w/ the paladin code. Still, 3 levels with Extra LoH feat would be cool, 4 if I wanted a couple 1st level spells.
If you're going Paladin 3 I'd go Paladin 4. Take the HOSPITALER archetype and get yourself one MEDITATION CRYSTAL for 100gp. You now have 2×CHA+5 LoH per day.
If you're maximizing it you'd want Fey Foundling, GREATER MERCY, and eventually a set of BRACERS OF THE MERCIFUL KNIGHT. You'd end up with 2×CHA+7 LoH/day for 4d6+8hp (~22hp) per heal (or 5d6+10 = ~27.5hp with Greater Mercy).
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I've been prowling this thread for ideas for a player of mine. She is running a Barbarian 7/Bard 2 and is currently wearing +2 Hide armor, a Ring of Protection +1, has a Dex of 14, and has a Cloak of Resistance +1.
That's it.
Her non-raging AC is a 19. The party is APL 9. I get that Barbarians and Bards don't have the tankiest armor capabilities, but 19 seems really bad. This was confirmed recently when the party encountered a CR 11 black dragon which essentially removed 1/3 of the Bard-barian's non-raging HP with a single Vital Strike bite attack.
What options are there to tank up for this PC? She is normally a 2-h melee martial with a greataxe +2 if that helps. I'm thinking with only hide and Light armor on the table for this PC she should be relying on things like Concealment, Cover, and other "special effects" from spells and items. What advice should I give her?
Barbarians are not great at avoidance tanking...they are better at mitigation tanking...focus on high hit points, buffs that reduce damage, ways to quickly recover HP, etc. Anything that can give DR, SR, fast healing, etc. is great for a barbarian.
I've never liked heavy armor. The difference between 20' and 30' move often seems to be that between 'enough' and 'not enough', and even mithral can't solve that. Most heavy armor users can't cast the spells which increase speed. A penalty to a bunch of skills is just an insult added to the injury.
That said if heavy armor is your thing there are mobile options. An air kinetic knight can work their way up to permanent flight by 6th level and haste by 8th or vice versa. Various mounted options exist. A steelblood bloodrager can cast cheetah's sprint and/or have the reach to make range irrelevant.
Straight kineticist is slightly more versatile, but Kinetic Knight has some strong advantages if you want a tank focused build, like 0 burn Kinetic Blade from level 1, the Resolve ability really improves on their weakest save, heavy armor and a shield make it easier to get a high AC so you can focus on Con as your primary stat instead of having to rely on your dex.
Like I said, kinetic knight is fine, but the only one of those things that's a real improvement is the save improvement. Even at first level the regular kineticist can gather power and use kinetic blade for 0 burn. And of course at 5th level infusion specialization kicks in. Moving and using the blade might come in handy sometime, but rather than doing that, the regular kineticist could just ranged blast the guy from 30 feet away, and then move to melee. The thing about going dex based is that you can focus on your offense and defense at the same time. Because of elemental overflow, the kineticist can have one of the highest dexterities in the game. And accuracy is extra important to a melee kineticist, because of iterative attacks.
Something kinetic knight has going for it is that it gets a lot of bonus infusions. Unfortunately, it’s a mixed blessing since they don’t qualify for many other infusions, leaving them starved for infusion choice.
If you go regular vanilla kineticist, you may consider switching your secondary element to something else instead of Void...
There are a lot of good element choices for either style. I like air for a kinetic knight, because you can permanently fly, which gets around the limitation from the slow speed of heavy armor, and let's you more easily participate against flying enemies with your limited range options.
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The kinetic knight gets Blade Rush at level 3, which can solve the majority of their mobility issues (Especially from level 5+ when they can do it for 0 burn every turn with a move action gather power and infusion specialization 1), and the Void element gets access to Gravity Control and it's Greater form, for limited flight capabilities, comes online a little later than Air, and isn't quite as good...still a nice option though.
I personally like the flavor and playstyle of the knight, but the vanilla kineticist is certainly awesome too. I have a level 12 vanilla Geokineticist in PFS who is one of my favorite characters.
I like the idea of reach weapon and shield (somehow), Mobile Bulwark to protect my ride,
While mounted you can wield a Lance in one hand and your Tower Shield in the other. Shield Brace is normally a good option, but as Shield Brace applies the ACP as a penalty to your attack rolls it's not recommended for a Tower Shield.
I also love the idea of riding something for mobility, which is made easier in dungeons with Undersized Mount.
Medium sized companions are generally much weaker than their large sized cousins, and you'd need to improve their Carrying Capacity by either Hefty Brute or magic items so that they can actually carry you. I recommend choosing a large companion with Narrow Frame instead.
A large mount with Narrow Frame and Friendly Switch is incredibly good in tight corridors when you give it Total Cover in one direction. Enemies can't get past you or attack, and Friendly Switch allows you to displace allies (to safety!) as you run through them to the frontline.
In reality the ultimate tank is the combination of a sacred shield paladin and a sister in arms cavalier both teamwork feat focused and forming a front line for a reach cleric.
the sister in arms ensures the sacred shield is basically unhittable and the sacred shield halves all their damage They share teamwork feats with each other and the rest of the party by sisterhood style and the shared training spell from the paladin. They use shield wall for ac, sisterhood style increases reflex and will saves even more, shake it off adds even more save bonuses.
Once the cleric can use communal resist energy there's very little danger in basically forming an ugly ass phalanx that will break just about anything trying to get through it.
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Octoskald makes the best tank (Bloodrager 1/Serpent Herald Skald X).
1) Fast healing, DR, decent AC
2) 9 attacks, long reach, free grapples
3) Enemies often go after bards to stop the singing
4) Buffs the team
5) Eventually gives the team fast healing
I'm happy to go into more build details, if anybody is interested.
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9 attacks, plus grab attempts, and eventually plus contrict damage rolls. It's a lot of dice.
It's easy to mitigate the slowdown though, either by using a dice app if the GM is okay with it, or else pre-rolling while you wait for your turn. Not to mention just being ready and knowing what you're going to do before it gets to you. Just something you need to talk about with your GM and party, and not a good idea for inexperienced players.
With many dice apps, you can save the dice for an attack type and then just tell it how many times to roll, then just read down the list. Takes your 9 attack turn down to a however long it takes to push a button and read some numbers out.
@Scott Wilhelm
I took a closer look at your builds, and there are some problems.
4R1I2M1: Cunning Initiative, Detect Alignment, BAB+2
5R1I3M1: Solo Tactics, Broken Wing Gambit, Weapon Focus, Split-Blade Sword, BAB+3An Attack o Opportunity whenever I'm attaced!
I'm not in the mood for another argument about how Solo Tactics actually works, but this is more relevant to Broken Wing Gambit anyway.
Broken Wing Gambit only triggers when you have attacked someone and used a free action to activate the effect. You can't use free actions outside of your turn, so you must have attacked the enemy on your turn to use this feat.It's a far cry from an Attack of Opportunity whenever you're attacked.
6R1I3M2: Ascetic Style, Modified Split Blade Sword, BAB+4
That Swift Action Attack from Panther Style is now something I can make with my Split Blade Sword.
Remember that entering a Style requires a Swift Action. So in the first round you enter Panther Style, the second round you enter Ascetic Style, in the third you activate your Healing Judgement, and in the fourth you can finally start applying Bane.
Taking the Combat Style Master feat would reduce the action to enter your two styles to free actions, which can be done in the same round.
Also, you need a way to deal with reach ASAP. If an enemy uses a reach weapon none of your tricks work.
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6F6: Improved Whip Mastery, Whip Mastery, Bravery+2
You do not get two feats at lv 6.
9F9: Weapon Training +2, Advanced Training, Fighter Tactics, Broken Wing Gambit
Same problem as in build #1, just remember that it's not as good as you thought it was.
This character has a 15' Reach by Level 6, so if you had an idea about bypassing this tank, forgetaboutit!
You don't threaten your full 15 ft reach (got the impression you weren't aware). Improved Whip Mastery increases your threatened area to 10 ft (if you're medium-sized), so it's just as easy to bypass this character as any other medium-sized reach weapon user.
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Octoskald makes the best tank (Bloodrager 1/Serpent Herald Skald X).
1) Fast healing, DR, decent AC
2) 9 attacks, long reach, free grapples
3) Enemies often go after bards to stop the singing
4) Buffs the team
5) Eventually gives the team fast healingI'm happy to go into more build details, if anybody is interested.
I'm not sure where the 9 attacks come from?
J
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Octoskald makes the best tank (Bloodrager 1/Serpent Herald Skald X).
1) Fast healing, DR, decent AC
2) 9 attacks, long reach, free grapples
3) Enemies often go after bards to stop the singing
4) Buffs the team
5) Eventually gives the team fast healingI'm happy to go into more build details, if anybody is interested.
I'm not sure where the 9 attacks come from?
J
Octopuses have 9 attacks.
Octopuses have 9 attacks.Octoskald makes the best tank (Bloodrager 1/Serpent Herald Skald X).
1) Fast healing, DR, decent AC
2) 9 attacks, long reach, free grapples
3) Enemies often go after bards to stop the singing
4) Buffs the team
5) Eventually gives the team fast healingI'm happy to go into more build details, if anybody is interested.
I'm not sure where the 9 attacks come from?
J
Is it octopuses though? ;)
J
Octopuses have 9 attacks.Is it octopuses though? ;)
J
Yes it is.
People incorrectly used the pluralism "Octopusses" because in English the suffix "es" inticates a plural.
However ...
Many other people eroniously corrected them to the Latin pluralism "Octopi". This would be correct if it were a Latin term, but as Octopus is a word of Greek origin this is equally incorrect.
The correct plural for Octopus using the Greek would be "Octopodes" ...
HOWEVER (again) ...
English is a living language, and as such is constantly evolving. It's also something of a bastard language in that it borrows from other languages all the freaking time.
As of now, the terms "Octopusses", "Octopi" and "Octopodes" are all considered acceptable english pluralism of the word "Octopus", but the most commonly accepted "correct" term for a modern english speaker is in fact "Octopusses".
@MrCharisma
@ZenN
I think JDawg75 is asking if it's really the creature "Octopus", which has one bite and one tentacle, not 9 attacks. And it's not since you're actually wild-shaping into the Giant Octopus, right?
Btw, I am a bit interested in how you get "decent AC" as a strength-based large creature without armor.
Well, that's a pi in my face!The Oxford English dictionary lists the plural of octopus as octopuses, and that's good enough for me.Octopuses have 9 attacks.Is it octopuses though? ;)
JYes it is.
** spoiler omitted **
I see what you did there ;D
Well, we certainly managed to tank this thread.
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Btw, I am a bit interested in how you get "decent AC" as a strength-based large creature without armor.
4 natural armor from beast shape, 4 armor from a Wand of Mage Armor (which you could eventually replace with Wild armor or some decent barding), at least +2 DEX because you're going to want Combat Reflexes for some extra AoOs to go with that 20ft reach, and then some amount of bonuses from rings and amulets and such. It's not good AC, but it's enough to call decent.
I'd make this one a Half Elf as well so that she could use a Wand of Swift Girding to dress in her Octopus-Barding as a Standard Action.
Half-orc is generally preferred for the Amplified Rage trick, where you get a free valet familiar off your Bloodrager level and then sing so you both rage, and get yourself a healthy +8 to STR and CON. And fast healing 8, off Skald's Vigor.
Barding on an octopus is kind of problematic. They can't wear normal armor, they have to get barding stitches - which would be a problem to put on each time you wild shape as well as being icky.
Mage armor or wild armor works of course.
Btw, I am a bit interested in how you get "decent AC" as a strength-based large creature without armor.4 natural armor from beast shape, 4 armor from a Wand of Mage Armor (which you could eventually replace with Wild armor or some decent barding), at least +2 DEX because you're going to want Combat Reflexes for some extra AoOs to go with that 20ft reach, and then some amount of bonuses from rings and amulets and such. It's not good AC, but it's enough to call decent.
I'd make this one a Half Elf as well so that she could use a Wand of Swift Girding to dress in her Octopus-Barding as a Standard Action.Half-orc is generally preferred for the Amplified Rage trick, where you get a free valet familiar off your Bloodrager level and then sing so you both rage, and get yourself a healthy +8 to STR and CON. And fast healing 8, off Skald's Vigor.
Eh...22/23 ac by the time you get an octopus wild shape and can afford a +2 or 3 magic ring is not decent armor 22/23 is decent armor for level 3 or 4
Per Derklord's bench-pressing spreadsheet, 22-23 AC is decent (green) for level 5-6.
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Okay, so slightly below decent, but it's putting most level appropriate enemies at roughly a coin flip to hit you, which should usually be enough for the high HP and fast healing to let you power through. +8 CON and fast healing 8 is a lot.
But you're right, a little below decent. So maybe once you can afford it that Wild armor is more appealing than discussed.
What about a Goliath Druid build?
J
Per Derklord's bench-pressing spreadsheet, 22-23 AC is decent (green) for level 5-6.
Yeah but if you're trying to push your way up to be the front liner and "tank" your ac should probably be more blue than green.
What about a Goliath Druid build?
It has a lot of potential, but starts off slow. Enlarge person is good for damage, but bad for AC. You might be able to get along having your companion help you tank, but I don’t think you’d feel like a regular tank until you get giant form 2. Having regeneration 5 is pretty major though, so I could see why that would be tempting to work towards.
What about a Goliath Druid build?It has a lot of potential, but starts off slow. Enlarge person is good for damage, but bad for AC. You might be able to get along having your companion help you tank, but I don’t think you’d feel like a regular tank until you get giant form 2. Having regeneration 5 is pretty major though, so I could see why that would be tempting to work towards.
I'd rather take DR 5 than Regen 5, but combining them would be great. Don't know how unless I can take Ice Domain somehow. I think I'd go Strength possibly, or take the Titanoboa. An enlarged Titanoboa would be very cool. Half-orc is nice because you can get great saves, esp w/ Fate's Favored. Use a club with Shillelagh or a Falchion. Not sure if Heavy Armor proficiency would be worth it.
J
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Regen 5 is good because you can’t normally die to damage. The most dangerous part of tanking is eating a string of unlucky crits. Regeneration lets you get back up from that.
A goliath druid could probably take one of the druid animal/terrain domains. Desert gives free action blur, wolf gives improved trip (prone opponents have a -4 to attack) & some decent buffs.