My DM forces us to multiclass at level 5. How do I create a powerful character that can survive?


Advice

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Can you go 3rd party stuff?
Spheres classes from Drop Dead Studio tend to stack very nicely with each other as the Caster Levels stack between them and you can continue to build a Talent pool. 5 Levels of Incanter followed by 5 levels of Thaumaturge is still a Caster Level 10. On the Martial side of things the Spheres of Might Classes work the same way (centering on Base Attack Bonus instead of Caster Level). Armiger/Prodigy is actually a pretty terrifying combo when you mix the Custome Weapons with the Sequences.

Alternatively Rite Publishing's "In the Company of" line of books have Racial Monster classes that you could start with to give you a Monster foundation to start with before entering a Core class. For example playing a Joten, go 5 levels in Giant Racial Paragon then go Fighter or Barbarian. Those first 5 levels are basically used to reinforce your Racial abilities


Divine Paragon Cleric-5
Evangelist PrC-10
Order of the Star Cavalier-5


Oh, my natural attack character could work here. 5 levels of Weretouched Shifter, 3 levels of White-Haired Witch, 2 levels of Barbarian. That's as far as I got. Add in two more levels of Barbarian for another rage power, then 4 levels of Unchained Rogue for 2 rogue talents, then the last 4 levels could be Hunter.


I was so wrong...

Divine Paragon Cleric-5
Evangelist-10
Holy Vindicator-5

Ends with:
+15 BAB and +10/+8/+10 base saves
You get six Boons from your deity
19th level Cleric Channeling
17th level Cleric casting


My suggestion would be to go with 5 levels of Oath of Vengeance Paladin, and for the rest an Oracle of Battle. Your lay on hands is not going to scale up so you might as well use it for extra smite evil. While the damage from smite evil does not scale you do get CHA to hit and AC and bypass all DR. The number of lay on hands you get is increased by CHA so you will get more as you level up.

The extra defenses of a paladin sound like they will be very useful in this campaign. Divine grace and immunity to fear and disease will often keep you alive. Being able to use heavy armor while still casting spells, is also going to help keep you alive. Being able to enhance your weapon is a small but useful ability.

An oracle is a ¾ BAB class so you are slightly behind a straight paladin. But getting weapon focus, greater weapon focus and improved critical minimize that. Maneuver Mastery gives you the improved and greater feat for your maneuver as well as full BAB with that weapon. Depending on the weapon you go with either sunder and trip would be a good choice. It also opens up sundering strike , or tripping strike. Sundering Strike with a falchion is very good.

Basically you play pretty similar to a straight paladin but with more magic capabilities. Your spells will mainly be buffs which the oracle list is full of. You will also be able to act as a healer.


David knott 242 wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:

The Halfling Supercork(forced to multiclass version)

racial alternatives: Danger Detection, Fleet of Foot, Small Quarter Ally
character traits: Natural Flyer
01 Paladin1 [Smite 1/day], Fey Foundling
02 Paladin2 [LoH:1d6+2][Divine Grace]
03 Paladin3 [Aura of Courage][Divine Health][Mercy], Greater Mercy
04 Paladin4 [Smite 2/day][Channel][LoH:3d6+3]
05 Paladin5 Mounted Combat (*retrain to Indomitable Mount at 7th)
06 uRogue1 [Weapon Finesse]
07 uRogue2 [combat trick:Mounted Combat*], Deific Obedience
08 Evangelist1
09 Evangelist2 [Aligned Class:Paladin][LoH:4d6+3], Boon Companion

For each paladin level from 1st to 4th, take the halfling alternative leveling bonus (+1/2 hp to Lay on Hands, which is worth a lot more than just one hitpoint).

Nitpick: You would have to take that bonus at levels 2-5. You don't have Lay on Hands at 1st level.

If you have a link to RAW or FAQ that precludes the taking of Racial Favored Class Benefits inapplicable at 1st level, I'd like to see it. RFCBs are not feats or traits; none of them have listed prerequisites aside from race and class.

(It's a moot point, of course, due to an odd number of levels. Unless one's GM permits RFCB to resume under Evangelist's Aligned Class, in which case more the merrier.)


It's admittedly not written, as far as I know, but it's often assumed to be an implicit rule.

Because, how do you handle an increase to something you don't have, and might never get ?
Some of those do give actual bonuses before the class grants you the relevant class ability, so what then ?
Hence the - admittedly unproven - idea that you can only improve things you do have, even by a fraction.
But I don't think it's ever been officially addressed.


Nyerkh wrote:

It's admittedly not written, as far as I know, but it's often assumed to be an implicit rule.

Because, how do you handle an increase to something you don't have, and might never get ?
Some of those do give actual bonuses before the class grants you the relevant class ability, so what then ?
Hence the - admittedly unproven - idea that you can only improve things you do have, even by a fraction.
But I don't think it's ever been officially addressed.

You might have some ground to stand on with this if it granted an actual bonus prior to obtaining the affected ability. But the vast majority of RFC bonuses that improve abilities that they don’t get at 1st level also don’t grant a full bonus until the level you would normally get the feature. This is clearly an intentional design choice meant to give such races an immediate improvement to said class feature.

Grand Lodge

If an alternate favored class option modifies a class feature or ability, it can’t be taken before the character has that class feature or ability. For example, if a class gains a class feature at 6th level, a character couldn’t take a racial favored class option that applies to that class feature until 6th level, even if the benefit from that option wouldn’t be high enough to add a bonus until a later level.

Occult adventures is the source.


Interesting that it took that long when there were ones causing issues from the get-go, starting with the APG.
Thanks for the reference, I actually have that book and had completely forgotten that was in there.

To answer Chell, indeed, the majority of FCBs are either base stuff or completely independant from what the class gives you. But there were more than a few who weren't that simple.
Humans could get a full +1 increase to the cavalier's banner bonus (at lv 4) before actually getting the banner (at 5). And of course the excellent human barbarian increase to the totally optional Superstition.

Anyways, not that implicit a rule after all, just very much not found where I'd have looked for it.


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Changed some things around:

.

Wizard5/Fighter1/EldKnight10

Human Dirty Trickster Abjuration (Counterspell) Wizard

14 Str
14 Dex
12 Con
20 Int (18+2)
10 Wis
7 Cha

Trait:
Magical Knack (so you don't lose spellcasting progression from taking fighter and EK1)
Wayang Spellhunter (Burning Hands)

Skills:
Intimidate (Max)

Weapon:
Use a Fauchard for Reach and critical 18-20 and later 15-20. Once you get Spell Critical from EK Capstone, you're going to be casting spells as Swift Actions whenever you critically strike.

Feats:

Level1W: Spell Focus (Whatever, probably Evocation though), Human Bonus Feat: Spell Specialization (Burning Hands)
Level2W:
Level3W: Empower Spell (Now you can prepare a 5d4 (+50%) Empowered Burning Hands as a lvl 2 spell slot)
Level4W:
Level5W: Dirty Fighting, Wizard Bonus Feat: Heighten Spell
Level6F: Bonus Feat: Imp Dirty Trick
Level7EK: Greater Dirty Trick, Bonus Feat: Power Attack
Level8EK:
Level9EK: Cornugon Smash (Get a +1 Cruel Enchant for Shaken/Sicken) [BAB becomes +6/+1]
Level10EK:
Level11EK: Dirty Tricks Master, EK Bonus Combat Feat: Quick Dirty Trick
Level12EK:
Level13EK: Maximize Spell
Level14EK: [BAB +11/+6/+1]
Level15EK: Spell Perfection (Enervation), EK Bonus Combat Feat: (Improved Critical: Fauchard)
Level16EK: Spell Critical (get +4 Brilliant Energy enchant)

This is an extremely survivable character because of the crazy debuffing potential. Blind/Nauseate from Dirty Tricks is redorkulous, but even if the enemy is somehow immune to both of these conditions, you can put a -4 to Hit/Saves from Shaken/Sicken and -6 Neg Lvls from lvl6 spell slot Max/Emp Enervation for a total -10 to Hit and Save.

Forcing the enemy to take a -10 to your saves makes your offensive spellcasting go right through the roof and makes you a powerhouse caster in the late game.

Edit: Once you get access to Beast Shape III at level 5 spells (which should happen at level 9), you can turn yourself into a Huge Animal with +6 Str plus an additional +4 from Bull's Strength (or belt, if you can afford it). So while Huge size, you'd have 24 Strength, and your 2d4 dmg Fauchard becomes 3d6 dmg with 20 ft Reach. 24 Str = 7 mod, so with 2h bonus that becomes 10 dmg; PA at lvl 8 is +6 with an addition +3 for 2h bonus, so your damage at lvl 9 would be roughly 3d6 +19 dmg (not including enchants or anything else). And you're a wizard. And at level 9, that's the first time you can start doing -4 to their saves from Shaken/Sicken combo! <3 -4 Saves is awesome!


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
doc roc wrote:
Divine Paragon cleric (select Exalted boons) then PrC into Evangelist for no feat cost (and thus gains Evangelist boons too)..... BOOYAH!!!

I am pretty sure that doesn't work. The prestige classes in Inner Sea Gods have language preventing you from getting extra boons or extra uses of the same boons.

Sovereign Court

Ryze Kuja wrote:

...

Trait:
Magical Knack (so you don't lose spellcasting progression from taking fighter and EK1)
...
Edit: Once you get access to Beast Shape III at level 5 spells (which should happen at level 9)

Magical Knack makes it so you don't lose caster level, but you still lose progression. Meaning you have the spell slots of a 7th level wizard at level 9 with your build but a caster level of 9. So you would receive 5th level spells at level 11.

Prestigious Spellcaster will actually get you 1 level of spell progression at Eldritch Knight 1 but also has a prereq feat. So 10th level for 5th level spells in your build.
Opportunist Fighter since you are taking Improved Dirty Trick anyway with your fighter bonus feat. This gets you a couple more skill points and class skills.


Yeah I said the wrong thing :P. Take magical knack so you don’t lose caster levels :P


David knott 242 wrote:


I am pretty sure that doesn't work. The prestige classes in Inner Sea Gods have language preventing you from getting extra boons or extra uses of the same boons.

I'm not aware of any such language existing.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
doc roc wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:


I am pretty sure that doesn't work. The prestige classes in Inner Sea Gods have language preventing you from getting extra boons or extra uses of the same boons.

I'm not aware of any such language existing.

Look at the Divine Boon entry in each of those prestige classes.


doc roc wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:


I am pretty sure that doesn't work. The prestige classes in Inner Sea Gods have language preventing you from getting extra boons or extra uses of the same boons.

I'm not aware of any such language existing.

Deific Obedience says "Certain prestige classes (see page i98) gain access to these boons at lower levels as a benefit of their prestige class. If you have no levels in one of these prestige classes, you gain the boons marked as exalted boons. If you later take levels in sentinel or evangelist, you lose access to the exalted boons and gain access to the new boons appropriate to your class." ISG pg. 210

Divine Paragon still uses the feat, although strictly RAW, selecting sentinel or evangelist with Divine Paragon and going into one of the prestige classes would work, I think.

That is, if you think trying to trick a deity into granting you more power than you're supposed to have is a good idea.


Trying to trick a deity into granting you more power than you're supposed to have...?

You mean following the guidance of your deity to become the very definition of how to truly wield his/her power.

Your deity has chosen you to carry twice the number of Deific Boons available to other mortals, all others are but peasants compared to your Holiness.

You have not made these decisions out of greed or conniving. Your deity has been guiding your every choice, laying out the path you must follow if you have what it takes to grasp your destiny and become your deity's perfect weapon...


Derklord wrote:

Deific Obedience says "Certain prestige classes (see page i98) gain access to these boons at lower levels as a benefit of their prestige class. If you have no levels in one of these prestige classes, you gain the boons marked as exalted boons. If you later take levels in sentinel or evangelist, you lose access to the exalted boons and gain access to the new boons appropriate to your class." ISG pg. 210

Divine Paragon still uses the feat, although strictly RAW, selecting sentinel or evangelist with Divine Paragon and going into one of the prestige classes would work, I think.

That is, if you think trying to trick a deity into granting you more power than you're supposed to have is a good idea.

The boons are a class feature of Divine Paragon - you get them and the feat automatically. And you get the boons at an improved rate (5-11-14 vs 12-16-20).

The wording of the archetype specifically states you can choose which boons out of Ex/Ev/Sen to take.

What you are talking about is for someone taking the feat separately..... which is very different as they auto have to take the Ex boons and they get them at the slower rate which is HD dependent and not class level dependent like Divine Paragon.

There is nothing RAW preventing a Divine Paragon gaining 2 sets of boons if they PrC.

As always SPECIFIC > GENERAL


Feels like a case of ask your GM.

very much a potential case of "repeated abilities don't work unless they say they do"

Looks at Monk taking Dodge and then going into Spear Fighter to get Dodge, does the character now benefit from Dodge once or twice?

*************
btw, those PRC don't give you the boons, they just allow you to unlock them faster than a regular character. Also they don't say their progression stack, just "at X level [of this class] get Y boon".


Temperans wrote:

Feels like a case of ask your GM.

very much a potential case of "repeated abilities don't work unless they say they do"

Looks at Monk taking Dodge and then going into Spear Fighter to get Dodge, does the character now benefit from Dodge once or twice?

*************
btw, those PRC don't give you the boons, they just allow you to unlock them faster than a regular character. Also they don't say their progression stack, just "at X level [of this class] get Y boon".

You misunderstand, I'm not talking about repeating the boons, I'm talking about taking different sets of boons (ie Exalted + Evangelist)


You choose to take the Exalted or the Sentinel Boons via Divine Paragon...

You will continue to receive your chosen Divine Paragon Boons because the Evangelist PrC allows your previous class to continue.

The Evangelist PrC also provides you with the Evangelist Boons...

You get six boons, two complete sets, using this combination.

It's not ask your GM...

It's look at what the archetype and prestige class actually do/offer.


VoodistMonk wrote:

You choose to take the Exalted or the Sentinel Boons via Divine Paragon...

You will continue to receive your chosen Divine Paragon Boons because the Evangelist PrC allows your previous class to continue.

The Evangelist PrC also provides you with the Evangelist Boons...

You get six boons, two complete sets, using this combination.

It's not ask your GM...

It's look at what the archetype and prestige class actually do/offer.

No, they are very much right that this does not work. Divine Paragon gets its boons from Deific Obedience. It is granted it as a bonus feat at level one. The archetype’s class feature just accelerates the rate you get the boons and lets you pick from the three types. If you take levels in one of the prCs you’re boons still get swapped over to the type provided by the class as per the rules for Deification Obedience. Nothing in the archetype says you stop following the rules of the feat other than the rate you get your boons and being able to choose which group to pull your boons from. The feats line about changing if you take a prC that grants boons still applies.

Just because you get them at an even faster rate from the archetype doesn’t mean you suddenly get to double up. That would be like if you waited and took Evangelist at 11th then tried to claim that because the feat grants them a level earlier you should get an extra boon at each level that Evangelist normally grants the boon. It doesn’t work that way, if your getting boons faster than the prC grants them for you, then the prCs boon feature is just a dead feature for you other than locking your boon type.


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Chell Raighn wrote:


No, they are very much right that this does not work. Divine Paragon gets its boons from Deific Obedience. It is granted it as a bonus feat at level one. The archetype’s class feature just accelerates the rate you get the boons and lets you pick from the three types. If you take levels in one of the prCs you’re boons still get swapped over to the type provided by the class as per the rules for Deification Obedience. Nothing in the archetype says you stop following the rules of the feat other than the rate you get your boons and being able to choose which group to pull your boons from. The feats line about changing if you take a prC that grants boons still applies.

Just because you get them at an even faster rate from the archetype doesn’t mean you suddenly get to double up. That would be like if you waited and took Evangelist at 11th then tried to claim that because the feat grants them a level earlier you should get an extra boon at each level that Evangelist normally grants the boon. It doesn’t work that way, if your getting boons faster than the prC grants them for you, then the prCs boon feature is just a dead feature for you other than locking your boon type.

No as is ALWAYS the case....SPECIFIC > GENERAL

Divine Paragon immediately alters the key feature of Deific Obedience by not only allowing a choice of any of the sets of boons but also giving them at an advanced rate.

It is a SPECIFIC case and does not follow the usual rules of Deific Obedience and invalidates most of the associated text (eg ".....you lose access to the exalted boons and gain access to the new boons appropriate to your class""..... since it is a SPECIFIC case as it can choose any of the sets (not just Exalted which is the only option with Deific Obedience) straight off the bat and at a different rate.

The boons are a class feature.... as you 100% cannot opt out of them. And thus PrC into Evangelist would advance them.

By RAW it works... no ifs, buts or maybes. I have not read anything that states otherwise....

SPECIFIC > GENERAL

(But hey if the PFS or Dev people say otherwise then that's another story!!.... Maybe you go and ask them!)


If you go Ninja or Monk 5 levels, you get ki.
With Tea of Transference you can convert ki to spells like a pearl of power. See my ki pool thread.
With Ki Channel you can regain ki instead of healing with a channel. If your monk used Drunken Ki, you can get ki for a drink.
Since Monk 4 is a common multiclass switch point making it 5 levels should be fine for it.

/cevah


Ryze Kuja wrote:

Wizard5/Fighter1/EldKnight10

...
Edit: Once you get access to Beast Shape III at level 5 spells (which should happen at level 9), you can turn yourself into a Huge Animal with +6 Str plus an...
Beast Shape III is a Transmutation(Polymorph) spell, and...
Subschool Polymorph wrote:
"...When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body....

BS3 is limited to animals, so no suddenly-huge fauchards.

Sovereign Court

Slim Jim wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

Wizard5/Fighter1/EldKnight10

...
Edit: Once you get access to Beast Shape III at level 5 spells (which should happen at level 9), you can turn yourself into a Huge Animal with +6 Str plus an...
Beast Shape III is a Transmutation(Polymorph) spell, and...
Subschool Polymorph wrote:
"...When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body....
BS3 is limited to animals, so no suddenly-huge fauchards.
Assuming "monkeys" or "apes" can use weapons because hands, the meld with gear problem is trivial at that level. Either drop the Huge weapon before you cast beast shape and then pick it back up again, or use a Polymorphic Pouch. Incidentally a Huge Fauchard would weigh 40 lbs(max capacity of the pouch) assuming you extend the logic from going from medium to large weapons.
Weapon Weight wrote:
Weight: This column gives the weight of a Medium version of the weapon. Halve this number for Small weapons and double it for Large weapons. Some weapons have a special weight.


Firebug wrote:
Assuming "monkeys" or "apes" can use weapons because hands, the meld with gear problem is trivial at that level. Either drop the Huge weapon before you cast beast shape and then pick it back up again, or use a Polymorphic Pouch.

Or you could cast Monstrous Physique III instead of Beast Shape, and remove all issues. Plus, a Gegenees has six arms, so you could wield both a reach and a non-reach two-handed weapon, plus a shield.

There's really no reason to ever cast Beast Shape unless you're a Cleric with the Animal or Saurian domain, or you're playing PFS.

Grand Lodge

Centry wrote:
*Khan* wrote:

First 5 levels Primal Companion Hunter

Then 3-4 levels Eldritch Guardian Mutation Warrior Fighter with a Mauler Familiar (you will need the boon compagnion feat)
Then 1-2 levels Wild Child Brawler
Then 10 levels Mammoth Rider Prestige Class

At level 7 your full hitdice animal compagnion shares all your teamwork feats and your mauler familiar shares all your combat feats.

If the adventure is mostly urban or in dungeons the dismiss the Mammoth Rider Prestige Class

I really want to play as a summoner, but I feel like I'd be super underpowered.

Haha - It is funny how a thread can get a life of it’s own.

This is the OP’s only comment since he or she startet the thread.


For Summoner, something that could work okayish, is to go 5 levels of Promethean Alchemist letting you have Alchemy ranks == CL for craft construct. Than the rest of your levels in Summoner.

This allows you to have 4 sources of companion creatures: Eidolon as the main companion, Summons to fit any need in as needed, Constructs to handle basic tasks, and a Homunculus assistant.


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Bolt Ace Gunslinger 5/Weapon Master Fighter 15

Use a Dwarven pelletbow and take Improved Critical. It's one of the best crit builds in the game. 17-20/x4 crit range normally, and, at 18th level, you can increase that to a x5, after you already confirm a crit.

So, totally optimized for attacking, starting with the highest Dex possible and Small, you to a +41/+36/+31/+26 to hit, hitting against touch by spending Grit, and deal 1d4+34 (assuming heavy pelletbow, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization, both Greater and not, a +6 dex belt, and a +5 enchantment) per hit, 4d4+136 on a crit, or 5d4+170 on a crit with Deadly Critical. And that's not counting in things like Critical feats or enchantments like Shocking Burst.

It's very good if you want to make the DM sad.


Am I the only one curious about what the DM is trying to accomplish with these... unusual house rules?


First off, I hope you didn't start as a full caster without a plan.
But, if you did, many prestige classes can help fix that. Eldritch knight in particular is basically almost a full caster, but with full BAB and d10. If ya took the magical knack trait, the only thing you will be missing is being behind 1 spellslot level, practically nonexistent class features and only 2 level 9 slots at max level. Not a bad trade off for just more stats and feats. If you somehow survive all the way to 16, finish it with arcane archer. You will lose another spell level, and have to take some archer specific feats, but you can do cheese arrow tricks, like using antimagic field on THEM, instead of yourself.

17(or 19) caster level, 17 bab, a gaggle of bonus feats, count as both fighter and caster for the higher level feats and 1 level 9 spell.

If ya start as a martial, it's not too bad.

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