I was thinking he might be mythic rank 3 or higher and has the divine source power?
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What fake powers? What? You're part of this Andoran FAKE NEWS agenda, right? The only thing that's fake is your LIES. Oh and what about the LUMBER CONSORTIUM? What are you doing about your exploited citizens and the ABUSE IN ANODRAN? Nothing! You're meddling in the affairs of SOVEREIGN nations while ignoring the burning issues in your own backyard!
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He never actually granted divine spells in 1e. There were some prestige classes and items that allowed some of his acolytes to fake it.
I suspect that will stay true in 2e, even more so with stuff like adapted cantrips/1st level spells, and bards having soothe, etc.
Most of the people of Razmiran wouldn't ask too many questions, nor likely have the know-how to tell the difference, and no-one outside Razmiran really thinks he is divine anyway.
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It's also not like there's a lot to compare him to.
Wizards that powerful are few throughout history - and of those alive, few are above question.
Sorshen, Geb and the likes, if they ever met him, could just say "yeah... Not a god, just a guy in a mask" but convincing the world is another issue entirely.
Sorshen's the goodest and most neutral towards him I can think of in Avistan, and she's an original runelord.
He has leveled cities on his own, and more importantly he has spent decades building its own myth. He can claim to be whatever he wants : he doesn't need to convince everyone, just enough to continue spreading his faith.
For all we know, that alone could grant him godhood at some point : most Gods don't care, but faith does have power.
However, we are getting ever closer to the day his age really catches up to him, and that is going to be interesting. I hope we get at least a few scenarios out of it.
I'm slightly salty something like the end of Sargava happened in the background, I hope we players get involved in the future of Razmir.
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Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.
I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^
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I'm with Kasoh on alot of player (and forum) perspective on this being pretty skewed by Too Much Information and generally a metagame perspective prioritizing formal mechanical features. I really don't see why most people in OR out of Razmiran would really spend much time caring about the topic. There's plenty of other religions whose deity isn't present, and who can say if they really are a god or not? That just doesn't really seem to enter into the equation of priorities for people in setting.
Maybe they don't heal people, but clerics of mean evil gods wouldn't anyways. Their more powerful dudes certainly have hands on some magic, so how is that clearly discernable from priests like Clerics? They don't need to go around proving their class mechanics left and right. While his own followers mostly seem in on the scam, really how exactly would it be different than "real" God of Scams? He gets some Sorceror-potential followes and teaches them prayer ritual for spells... Nothing says a Sorceror or anybody else actually has to have ACCURATE knowledge of cosmological foundation of their own abilities, not do his recruits need to have solid understanding of nuances of other Gods' Clerics, who of couse are driven out of Razmiran so there isn't even opportunity for direct comparision. There just isn't much in-world motivation for anybody to question this, if they are in his church it's because it serves their power/mentality in same way a real church of scam god would.
But a degree of metagaming is pretty ingrained in how players view the world, so it's hard to let go of and just accept the setting premise can organically sustain itself.
Also: In Tian Xia they have Oracular Cult of the Emperor, who 'worship' ancient Dragon Emperor, which obviously isn't mechanically a Deity. Is that a problem? Not really. If you're not metagaming about it, you just approach these as religious groups who wield actual magic, and you can love them or hate them, but fixating on abstact mechanical distinctions probably doesn't really matter much.
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Maybe they don't heal people, but clerics of mean evil gods wouldn't anyways.
I always see Razmiran priest as those who *DO* heal people. Asmodeus may require a hefty sum or a later favor for a heal spell, but Razmir? His cult will use your recovery as further evidence of his divinity, and to parley this 'miracle' into their protection racket. And its even easier now that healing magic is simply on the divine spell list instead of peppered through class spell lists.
"The Glorious Razmir blessed this man, curing his infirmities! For the low price of 12% of this villages income, the Living God can continue providing healing and protection... By the way, did you hear about the farmer just over the hill who's farm was razed by goblins last week?"
Stalking the Beast (PF Novel) probably has the most actual interaction with the Razmiran "protect you from problems we're making" racket.
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^This may have already happened . . . .
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Razimir is a bog standard 19th level Wizard. Everything else is just a tissue of lies. He has never granted divine powers of any sort.
That's what you're saying because somebody PAID you to do so! Another BLATANT example of INTERFERENCE in our sovereign affairs! When will this MEDDLING end? SO NASTY!
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And now I'm imagining what Golarion would look like with Twitter. Sad.
Razimir is a bog standard 19th level Wizard. Everything else is just a tissue of lies. He has never granted divine powers of any sort.
FAKE NEWS!
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Ye gods. This works so well I'll never be able to get that idea out of my head now.
Damn you!
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Another factor is of Razmir's deceit is exploiting addiction to create a base of followers which fund his machinations and are easily controlled.
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Considering how Razmiran Priests work, they must have quite an operation organized to obtain divine magic items from elsewhere, by any means necessary.
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Considering how Razmiran Priests work, they must have quite an operation organized to obtain divine magic items from elsewhere, by any means necessary.
Well, per PF2 (and even in PF1 with Oracles), they can have Sorcerers and Oracles in-house making a fair number of them. I'd imagine that and 'miracles of Razmir' are the main job of most people with Divine (or Primal, in PF2) spellcasting in the service of Razmir. Or of Bards and other Occult casters.
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Really, even in PF1, a series of Bards or Alchemists could pump out the majority of the curatives that a divine caster would have access to. Cure spells, lesser restorations, enhance water, remove poison, remove curse, etc. Get a witch or an evil or chaotic druid on the payroll, there's even more easy access to stereotypical divine spells (reincarnate). Then toss in a cleric of any number of evil deities or powers who favor lies or deception, and you have a good ally for magic item purchases.
PF2 just really opened it up with the different ways non-clerics can access spells from the divine list.
Given that Razmiran Priests (at least in Pathfinder 1st Edition) have a need for divine spell-trigger and spell-completion items and not items made by arcane casters that happen to have the same spells, and that Oracles aren't exactly on every street corner (unless you live in some weird place), in-house production of such items would probably be insufficient to meet demand, and so they would look to the outside to supplement their supply. (Or course, from the Razmiran public relations point of view, such missions, if public at all, would be labeled as operations "to break the power of fake deities and unbelievers".)
maybe he gets it from sacrificed female elven virgins...
All praise to Calistria, protector of the Elven people!
:)
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IIRC Razmir has some actual behind the scenes divine backup. Of the veiled variety.
Which makes everything that much disturbing IMO.
Sivannah wasn't it?
I was considering trying to homebrew a continuation of the Price of Immortality trilogy leaning quite heavily on this - some kind of illusion filled temple of Sivannah with cyclops, naga, aranaea etc.
(Game never got far enough)
I would love a Razmir AP overseen by Jason but:
- I don't think he will ever have the time
- I don't see how you could have a satisfactory ending whilst still keeping Razmir in place (as he is such a juicy part of the setting).
But on that last point they managed it with the Tyrant...
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IIRC Razmir has some actual behind the scenes divine backup. Of the veiled variety.
Which makes everything that much disturbing IMO.
Yeah, Gods & Magic mentioned that illusionist-priests of Sivanah could use shadow conjuration to heal, and the sample magic item for the Razmiran religion was a magic item that cast cure light wounds, and used, dun dun, shadow conjuration in it's creation list.
Which kind of seems totally in her wheelhouse, since it's the grandest trick ever played, particularly if it gets to the point where Razmir himself thinks he ascended (but actually hasn't), and he finds out the joke was on him all along...
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^Problem is that the joke could end up taking on a life of its own, and thus boomeranging on the jokester.
Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.
I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^
What if he actually does die of old age? Will his followers just go "I guess he wasn't a god after all"? Or will they make some lame excuse for how he was still a god?
Creative Director
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What if he actually does die of old age? Will his followers just go "I guess he wasn't a god after all"? Or will they make some lame excuse for how he was still a god?Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.
I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^
That's precisely the type of event (one of many) that could kick off a really interesting campaign.
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What if he actually does die of old age? Will his followers just go "I guess he wasn't a god after all"? Or will they make some lame excuse for how he was still a god?Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.
I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^
Razmir hides behind a mask. One of his followers could just take the mask and pretend to be Razmir. All of his followers already wield their own power instead of leaning on him for it, his right-hand just needs some political maneuvering to seize the mantle.
Or if impersonating him is too hard, his fake clergy could just say he is off plane and trusting them to do his bidding and control Razmiran, destroy the body so nobody would know, and occasionally have messages or fake appearances pop up.
Or if the fact that Razmir died got out someone could claim to have inherited his divinity and seize control of Razmiran. Gods die too after all, and their heralds sometimes pick up their power.
In short, Razmir dying of old age isn't necessarily a solution to Razmirans problems.
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What if he actually does die of old age? Will his followers just go "I guess he wasn't a god after all"? Or will they make some lame excuse for how he was still a god?Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.
I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^
Razmir hides behind a mask. One of his followers could just take the mask and pretend to be Razmir. All of his followers already wield their own power instead of leaning on him for it, his right-hand just needs some political maneuvering to seize the mantle.
Or if impersonating him is too hard, his fake clergy could just say he is off plane and trusting them to do his bidding and control Razmiran, destroy the body so nobody would know, and occasionally have messages or fake appearances pop up.
Or if the fact that Razmir died got out someone could claim to have inherited his divinity and seize control of Razmiran. Gods die too after all, and their heralds sometimes pick up their power.In short, Razmir dying of old age isn't necessarily a solution to Razmirans problems.
The Dread Pirate Roberts.
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IIRC Razmir has some actual behind the scenes divine backup. Of the veiled variety.
Which makes everything that much disturbing IMO.
Sivannah wasn't it?
I was considering trying to homebrew a continuation of the Price of Immortality trilogy leaning quite heavily on this - some kind of illusion filled temple of Sivannah with cyclops, naga, aranaea etc.
(Game never got far enough)
I would love a Razmir AP overseen by Jason but:
- I don't think he will ever have the time
- I don't see how you could have a satisfactory ending whilst still keeping Razmir in place (as he is such a juicy part of the setting).But on that last point they managed it with the Tyrant...
In the end, Razmir ascends and leaves the mortal plane behind. Or so the story will go.
Maybe with the PCs as his successors on Golarion. Could make for a delightful Evil AP.
IIRC Razmir has some actual behind the scenes divine backup. Of the veiled variety.
Which makes everything that much disturbing IMO.
Sivannah wasn't it?
I was considering trying to homebrew a continuation of the Price of Immortality trilogy leaning quite heavily on this - some kind of illusion filled temple of Sivannah with cyclops, naga, aranaea etc.
(Game never got far enough)
I would love a Razmir AP overseen by Jason but:
- I don't think he will ever have the time
- I don't see how you could have a satisfactory ending whilst still keeping Razmir in place (as he is such a juicy part of the setting).But on that last point they managed it with the Tyrant...
In the end, Razmir ascends and leaves the mortal plane behind. Or so the story will go.
Maybe with the PCs as his successors on Golarion. Could make for a delightful Evil AP.
Thanks, I hate it!
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Well he's a very, very powerful wizard, so there's a lot of surface-level divinity that he can fake. Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable (to most of the population of Golarion, and on the surface) from divinity?
And maybe he's already a lich. Or has found some other arcane way to become immortal. Or he's just a mask for a cabal of doppelgangers. Or he's being impersonated a pit fiend, or is an avatar of Nyarlathotep or something.
Who knows? Make up your interesting versions?
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He gets replaced by 3 halfling sorcerers in a trenchcoat.
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He gets replaced by 3 halfling sorcerers in a trenchcoat.
Common misconception actually, the trenchcoat is the sorcerer who has enchanted the three halflings into serving as it's skeleton.
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He gets replaced by 3 halfling sorcerers in a trenchcoat.Are you sure it wasn't three gnomes? In the run up to the P2 launch, Ryan from Know Direction wrote up the middle gnome from a trenchcoat trio. Kinda cool way to show off the new system.
Or a gnome, a goblin, and a halfing, cloaked by a Cloaker?
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What if he actually does die of old age? Will his followers just go "I guess he wasn't a god after all"? Or will they make some lame excuse for how he was still a god?Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.
I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^
Likely the same thing that happened when the founder of Scientology died, which is to say, his followers basically say "he didn't die, obviously. Dying is for mortals. He's just abandoned his mortal shell because he has no need for it any longer, and he has now finally ascended to the Beyond. Now it is the duty of us, his faithful, to continue serving him and protecting and expanding his domain." Etc etc. People are reeeeeaaaaally good at convincing themselves that they were right all along, even when provided with objective evidence to the contrary. Heck, there are a lot of death-cults of the world ending that, when the world fails to end as they predicted, they just go "oh, well, obviously we were just so freakin faithful that we got an extra couple of years ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"
^And if you follow in his footsteps, you too can achieve the status of operating Iota Delta 10 Tau.
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Gods and Magic has a feat called Charlatan, which is clearly designed for use with Razmiran priests. It is a General/Skill feat that requires trained in Deception, and allows a Deception check when using a magic item to seem like you are casting the spell yourself.
Gods and Magic has a feat called Charlatan, which is clearly designed for use with Razmiran priests. It is a General/Skill feat that requires trained in Deception, and allows a Deception check when using a magic item to seem like you are casting the spell yourself.
Neat!
>:)
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Back to the OP, for the vast majority of people (i.e. non-PCs) they have no real knowledge base to differentiate a divine spellcaster from a primal from an occult from an arcane one. This becomes especially difficult when you consider list overlap or similar spells on different lists. A good example is sooth vs. heal. From a lay person's perspective they are indistinguishable. Even for quote-unquote "wizard" spells it's hard to tell the difference.
-Fireball is a wizard spell
-that guy just cast fireball
-he's a nature priest (druid)
-Fireball is a divine spell!
-Therefore anyone who casts fireball is a cleric (and that's before we get into alternate spell access due to your patron deity).
Throw in alchemy and it is even more complicated. A good example of how a lay person sees magic is from the Fall of Plaguestone adventure, where if the shop keep is asked about alchemical items her response is "we haven't had one of those chymist witches for almost 20 years." For most people they're not going to interrogate the spell caster who just saved their life on which esoteric magical category their spells fall under. They're just happy to not be bleeding to death any more.
TLDR; to a lay person magic is magic, it's just player meta-knowledge that makes a difference.