Where does Razmir get his fake divine powers from?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


I was thinking he might be mythic rank 3 or higher and has the divine source power?


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What fake powers? What? You're part of this Andoran FAKE NEWS agenda, right? The only thing that's fake is your LIES. Oh and what about the LUMBER CONSORTIUM? What are you doing about your exploited citizens and the ABUSE IN ANODRAN? Nothing! You're meddling in the affairs of SOVEREIGN nations while ignoring the burning issues in your own backyard!


He never actually granted divine spells in 1e. There were some prestige classes and items that allowed some of his acolytes to fake it.

I suspect that will stay true in 2e, even more so with stuff like adapted cantrips/1st level spells, and bards having soothe, etc.

Most of the people of Razmiran wouldn't ask too many questions, nor likely have the know-how to tell the difference, and no-one outside Razmiran really thinks he is divine anyway.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
vagrant-poet wrote:

He never actually granted divine spells in 1e. There were some prestige classes and items that allowed some of his acolytes to fake it.

I suspect that will stay true in 2e, even more so with stuff like adapted cantrips/1st level spells, and bards having soothe, etc.

Most of the people of Razmiran wouldn't ask too many questions, nor likely have the know-how to tell the difference, and no-one outside Razmiran really thinks he is divine anyway.

Its hard to say what the general population believes. In games with players who know about the setting, it tends to be something of an 'open secret' where the PCs can yuck about it, but in reality, this is a setting where deities have walked the planet before. If anyone knows of Razmir, they likely know what his cult preaches, which is that he's a god. And anyone close enough to the nation he rules to have more informed opinion still would have to meet the man and see him work a 'miracle' to determine one way or another.

Otherwise, two people can have a conversation 'So, Razmir says he's a god, but we never hear him do anything a wizard couldn't do...do you think he's running an elaborate pyramid scheme?'

'If he was a powerful wizard, why would he run a pyramid scheme instead of doing all the other broken, op stuff wizards do.'

'Dunno man. People are weird.'

And so on. Players tend to treat the information as more common than it is, but unless your game actually involves the cult of Razmir, it doesn't matter if your PCs adventuring in Cheliax think that Nation next to Ustalav is run by a wizard with delusions of grandeur.


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It's also not like there's a lot to compare him to.
Wizards that powerful are few throughout history - and of those alive, few are above question.
Sorshen, Geb and the likes, if they ever met him, could just say "yeah... Not a god, just a guy in a mask" but convincing the world is another issue entirely.
Sorshen's the goodest and most neutral towards him I can think of in Avistan, and she's an original runelord.

He has leveled cities on his own, and more importantly he has spent decades building its own myth. He can claim to be whatever he wants : he doesn't need to convince everyone, just enough to continue spreading his faith.
For all we know, that alone could grant him godhood at some point : most Gods don't care, but faith does have power.

However, we are getting ever closer to the day his age really catches up to him, and that is going to be interesting. I hope we get at least a few scenarios out of it.
I'm slightly salty something like the end of Sargava happened in the background, I hope we players get involved in the future of Razmir.


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Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.

I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^


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I'm with Kasoh on alot of player (and forum) perspective on this being pretty skewed by Too Much Information and generally a metagame perspective prioritizing formal mechanical features. I really don't see why most people in OR out of Razmiran would really spend much time caring about the topic. There's plenty of other religions whose deity isn't present, and who can say if they really are a god or not? That just doesn't really seem to enter into the equation of priorities for people in setting.

Maybe they don't heal people, but clerics of mean evil gods wouldn't anyways. Their more powerful dudes certainly have hands on some magic, so how is that clearly discernable from priests like Clerics? They don't need to go around proving their class mechanics left and right. While his own followers mostly seem in on the scam, really how exactly would it be different than "real" God of Scams? He gets some Sorceror-potential followes and teaches them prayer ritual for spells... Nothing says a Sorceror or anybody else actually has to have ACCURATE knowledge of cosmological foundation of their own abilities, not do his recruits need to have solid understanding of nuances of other Gods' Clerics, who of couse are driven out of Razmiran so there isn't even opportunity for direct comparision. There just isn't much in-world motivation for anybody to question this, if they are in his church it's because it serves their power/mentality in same way a real church of scam god would.

But a degree of metagaming is pretty ingrained in how players view the world, so it's hard to let go of and just accept the setting premise can organically sustain itself.

Also: In Tian Xia they have Oracular Cult of the Emperor, who 'worship' ancient Dragon Emperor, which obviously isn't mechanically a Deity. Is that a problem? Not really. If you're not metagaming about it, you just approach these as religious groups who wield actual magic, and you can love them or hate them, but fixating on abstact mechanical distinctions probably doesn't really matter much.

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Quandary wrote:
Maybe they don't heal people, but clerics of mean evil gods wouldn't anyways.

I always see Razmiran priest as those who *DO* heal people. Asmodeus may require a hefty sum or a later favor for a heal spell, but Razmir? His cult will use your recovery as further evidence of his divinity, and to parley this 'miracle' into their protection racket. And its even easier now that healing magic is simply on the divine spell list instead of peppered through class spell lists.

"The Glorious Razmir blessed this man, curing his infirmities! For the low price of 12% of this villages income, the Living God can continue providing healing and protection... By the way, did you hear about the farmer just over the hill who's farm was razed by goblins last week?"

Stalking the Beast (PF Novel) probably has the most actual interaction with the Razmiran "protect you from problems we're making" racket.

Liberty's Edge

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Razimir is a bog standard 19th level Wizard. Everything else is just a tissue of lies. He has never granted divine powers of any sort.


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The only thing he really does that's unique is his mutation of sorcerers.

One thing they could do with him is have him die of old age, and for many False Dmitrys Razmirs to pop up taking advantage of the fact that nobody knows what he looks like. Could even add the wrinkle that one (or more) is a clone of Razmir.


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^This may have already happened . . . .


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Razimir is a bog standard 19th level Wizard. Everything else is just a tissue of lies. He has never granted divine powers of any sort.

That's what you're saying because somebody PAID you to do so! Another BLATANT example of INTERFERENCE in our sovereign affairs! When will this MEDDLING end? SO NASTY!


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

And now I'm imagining what Golarion would look like with Twitter. Sad.

Dark Archive

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Razimir is a bog standard 19th level Wizard. Everything else is just a tissue of lies. He has never granted divine powers of any sort.

If he lived in the Forgotten Realms he'd be running a tavern.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Razimir is a bog standard 19th level Wizard. Everything else is just a tissue of lies. He has never granted divine powers of any sort.

FAKE NEWS!


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Ye gods. This works so well I'll never be able to get that idea out of my head now.

Damn you!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

IIRC Razmir has some actual behind the scenes divine backup. Of the veiled variety.

Which makes everything that much disturbing IMO.


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Another factor is of Razmir's deceit is exploiting addiction to create a base of followers which fund his machinations and are easily controlled.


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Considering how Razmiran Priests work, they must have quite an operation organized to obtain divine magic items from elsewhere, by any means necessary.

Liberty's Edge

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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Considering how Razmiran Priests work, they must have quite an operation organized to obtain divine magic items from elsewhere, by any means necessary.

Well, per PF2 (and even in PF1 with Oracles), they can have Sorcerers and Oracles in-house making a fair number of them. I'd imagine that and 'miracles of Razmir' are the main job of most people with Divine (or Primal, in PF2) spellcasting in the service of Razmir. Or of Bards and other Occult casters.

Scarab Sages

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Really, even in PF1, a series of Bards or Alchemists could pump out the majority of the curatives that a divine caster would have access to. Cure spells, lesser restorations, enhance water, remove poison, remove curse, etc. Get a witch or an evil or chaotic druid on the payroll, there's even more easy access to stereotypical divine spells (reincarnate). Then toss in a cleric of any number of evil deities or powers who favor lies or deception, and you have a good ally for magic item purchases.

PF2 just really opened it up with the different ways non-clerics can access spells from the divine list.


Given that Razmiran Priests (at least in Pathfinder 1st Edition) have a need for divine spell-trigger and spell-completion items and not items made by arcane casters that happen to have the same spells, and that Oracles aren't exactly on every street corner (unless you live in some weird place), in-house production of such items would probably be insufficient to meet demand, and so they would look to the outside to supplement their supply. (Or course, from the Razmiran public relations point of view, such missions, if public at all, would be labeled as operations "to break the power of fake deities and unbelievers".)


maybe he gets it from sacrificed female elven virgins...


Steelfiredragon wrote:
maybe he gets it from sacrificed female elven virgins...

All praise to Calistria, protector of the Elven people!

:)


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Razmir is the best.

That's where he gets them from.


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The Raven Black wrote:

IIRC Razmir has some actual behind the scenes divine backup. Of the veiled variety.

Which makes everything that much disturbing IMO.

Sivannah wasn't it?

I was considering trying to homebrew a continuation of the Price of Immortality trilogy leaning quite heavily on this - some kind of illusion filled temple of Sivannah with cyclops, naga, aranaea etc.

(Game never got far enough)

I would love a Razmir AP overseen by Jason but:
- I don't think he will ever have the time
- I don't see how you could have a satisfactory ending whilst still keeping Razmir in place (as he is such a juicy part of the setting).

But on that last point they managed it with the Tyrant...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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I don't see Razmir as actually having ANY divine powers or divine backup, althoguh I could certainly see some deities taking advantage of him...

Dark Archive

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The Raven Black wrote:

IIRC Razmir has some actual behind the scenes divine backup. Of the veiled variety.

Which makes everything that much disturbing IMO.

Yeah, Gods & Magic mentioned that illusionist-priests of Sivanah could use shadow conjuration to heal, and the sample magic item for the Razmiran religion was a magic item that cast cure light wounds, and used, dun dun, shadow conjuration in it's creation list.

Which kind of seems totally in her wheelhouse, since it's the grandest trick ever played, particularly if it gets to the point where Razmir himself thinks he ascended (but actually hasn't), and he finds out the joke was on him all along...


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^Problem is that the joke could end up taking on a life of its own, and thus boomeranging on the jokester.

Dark Archive

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
^Problem is that the joke could end up taking on a life of its own, and thus boomeranging on the jokester.

The best jokes do. :)


lowfyr01 wrote:

Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.

I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^

What if he actually does die of old age? Will his followers just go "I guess he wasn't a god after all"? Or will they make some lame excuse for how he was still a god?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Yqatuba wrote:
lowfyr01 wrote:

Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.

I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^

What if he actually does die of old age? Will his followers just go "I guess he wasn't a god after all"? Or will they make some lame excuse for how he was still a god?

That's precisely the type of event (one of many) that could kick off a really interesting campaign.


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Yqatuba wrote:
lowfyr01 wrote:

Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.

I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^

What if he actually does die of old age? Will his followers just go "I guess he wasn't a god after all"? Or will they make some lame excuse for how he was still a god?

Razmir hides behind a mask. One of his followers could just take the mask and pretend to be Razmir. All of his followers already wield their own power instead of leaning on him for it, his right-hand just needs some political maneuvering to seize the mantle.

Or if impersonating him is too hard, his fake clergy could just say he is off plane and trusting them to do his bidding and control Razmiran, destroy the body so nobody would know, and occasionally have messages or fake appearances pop up.
Or if the fact that Razmir died got out someone could claim to have inherited his divinity and seize control of Razmiran. Gods die too after all, and their heralds sometimes pick up their power.

In short, Razmir dying of old age isn't necessarily a solution to Razmirans problems.


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Paradozen wrote:
Yqatuba wrote:
lowfyr01 wrote:

Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.

I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^

What if he actually does die of old age? Will his followers just go "I guess he wasn't a god after all"? Or will they make some lame excuse for how he was still a god?

Razmir hides behind a mask. One of his followers could just take the mask and pretend to be Razmir. All of his followers already wield their own power instead of leaning on him for it, his right-hand just needs some political maneuvering to seize the mantle.

Or if impersonating him is too hard, his fake clergy could just say he is off plane and trusting them to do his bidding and control Razmiran, destroy the body so nobody would know, and occasionally have messages or fake appearances pop up.
Or if the fact that Razmir died got out someone could claim to have inherited his divinity and seize control of Razmiran. Gods die too after all, and their heralds sometimes pick up their power.

In short, Razmir dying of old age isn't necessarily a solution to Razmirans problems.

The Dread Pirate Roberts.

Liberty's Edge

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Lanathar wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

IIRC Razmir has some actual behind the scenes divine backup. Of the veiled variety.

Which makes everything that much disturbing IMO.

Sivannah wasn't it?

I was considering trying to homebrew a continuation of the Price of Immortality trilogy leaning quite heavily on this - some kind of illusion filled temple of Sivannah with cyclops, naga, aranaea etc.

(Game never got far enough)

I would love a Razmir AP overseen by Jason but:
- I don't think he will ever have the time
- I don't see how you could have a satisfactory ending whilst still keeping Razmir in place (as he is such a juicy part of the setting).

But on that last point they managed it with the Tyrant...

In the end, Razmir ascends and leaves the mortal plane behind. Or so the story will go.

Maybe with the PCs as his successors on Golarion. Could make for a delightful Evil AP.


The Raven Black wrote:
Lanathar wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

IIRC Razmir has some actual behind the scenes divine backup. Of the veiled variety.

Which makes everything that much disturbing IMO.

Sivannah wasn't it?

I was considering trying to homebrew a continuation of the Price of Immortality trilogy leaning quite heavily on this - some kind of illusion filled temple of Sivannah with cyclops, naga, aranaea etc.

(Game never got far enough)

I would love a Razmir AP overseen by Jason but:
- I don't think he will ever have the time
- I don't see how you could have a satisfactory ending whilst still keeping Razmir in place (as he is such a juicy part of the setting).

But on that last point they managed it with the Tyrant...

In the end, Razmir ascends and leaves the mortal plane behind. Or so the story will go.

Maybe with the PCs as his successors on Golarion. Could make for a delightful Evil AP.

Thanks, I hate it!

(Still a good idea, tho.)


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well he's a very, very powerful wizard, so there's a lot of surface-level divinity that he can fake. Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable (to most of the population of Golarion, and on the surface) from divinity?

And maybe he's already a lich. Or has found some other arcane way to become immortal. Or he's just a mask for a cabal of doppelgangers. Or he's being impersonated a pit fiend, or is an avatar of Nyarlathotep or something.

Who knows? Make up your interesting versions?


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He gets replaced by 3 halfling sorcerers in a trenchcoat.


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Mudfoot wrote:
He gets replaced by 3 halfling sorcerers in a trenchcoat.

Common misconception actually, the trenchcoat is the sorcerer who has enchanted the three halflings into serving as it's skeleton.

Grand Lodge

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Mudfoot wrote:
He gets replaced by 3 halfling sorcerers in a trenchcoat.

Are you sure it wasn't three gnomes? In the run up to the P2 launch, Ryan from Know Direction wrote up the middle gnome from a trenchcoat trio. Kinda cool way to show off the new system.


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DougSeay wrote:
Mudfoot wrote:
He gets replaced by 3 halfling sorcerers in a trenchcoat.
Are you sure it wasn't three gnomes? In the run up to the P2 launch, Ryan from Know Direction wrote up the middle gnome from a trenchcoat trio. Kinda cool way to show off the new system.

Or a gnome, a goblin, and a halfing, cloaked by a Cloaker?


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realRazmir wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Razimir is a bog standard 19th level Wizard. Everything else is just a tissue of lies. He has never granted divine powers of any sort.
That's what you're saying because somebody PAID you to do so! Another BLATANT example of INTERFERENCE in our sovereign affairs! When will this MEDDLING end? SO NASTY!

I love this account.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Yqatuba wrote:
lowfyr01 wrote:

Him getting more desperate About his age is one of the even more dangerous Things About him.

I could see him using his People in a ritual to get Young again like the one shown in the Villian Codex i think. Always looked like made for him^^

What if he actually does die of old age? Will his followers just go "I guess he wasn't a god after all"? Or will they make some lame excuse for how he was still a god?

Likely the same thing that happened when the founder of Scientology died, which is to say, his followers basically say "he didn't die, obviously. Dying is for mortals. He's just abandoned his mortal shell because he has no need for it any longer, and he has now finally ascended to the Beyond. Now it is the duty of us, his faithful, to continue serving him and protecting and expanding his domain." Etc etc. People are reeeeeaaaaally good at convincing themselves that they were right all along, even when provided with objective evidence to the contrary. Heck, there are a lot of death-cults of the world ending that, when the world fails to end as they predicted, they just go "oh, well, obviously we were just so freakin faithful that we got an extra couple of years ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"


^And if you follow in his footsteps, you too can achieve the status of operating Iota Delta 10 Tau.

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