What classes mesh best with the Living Monolith?Once I hit the rare 4th level feat I stopped looking at the archetype: once they explain how that works, I'll look at it again.
what part of it being rare confused you?
I mean, let's assume your GM lets you gain access to all things essential to your concept, what is the best use of the Living Monolith?
I mean, let's assume your GM lets you gain access to all things essential to your concept, what is the best use of the Living Monolith?
I don't know what would be best but I can see it being pretty fun as a Monk or Barb.
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I also think you are being a little harsh on uncommon items. Rare is another thing, but the way the CRB talks about uncommon heavily pushes the idea that any player who wants an uncommon option should be able to get it with some work.I'm with Xenocrat on this: don't make something uncommon integral to a character unless you KNOW ahead of time you'll be able to get it. Hoping/expecting to get it is a bad idea IMO unless you KNOW the Dm and can reasonably expect to get it.
I think it’s perfectly fine for Paizo to create content that relies on access to uncommon things. While your approach is one way to play the game and is a valid way for you (even if I don’t understand it), there are other ways to play the game.
Runescarred might not work for your table. If it functions how I expect it to, it’s going to work great for my tables.
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Incidentally none of the early LO threads have mentioned Lion Blade as far as I can tell. Does it not offer much exciting...?It's a spy archetype: disguises, faster movement, sneak/hide/flank options in a crowd, confuse divination/mental magic and give yourself concealment.
Awesome. Looks like I’ll be left with only question: Which cultures should get Lion Blade (at this stage I’m thinking all of them with perhaps cultural specific feat or two).
I mean, let's assume your GM lets you gain access to all things essential to your concept, what is the best use of the Living Monolith?
Dont expect a response from gray stone. They have a unique aversion to any ambiguity so they’re unlikely to read this archetype. Hopefully someone else will help you though.
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Awesome. Looks like I’ll be left with only question: Which cultures should get Lion Blade (at this stage I’m thinking all of them with perhaps cultural specific feat or two).
In Eberron? It's got a Performance prerequisite so the Houses of Shadows (both of them) are probably the only places offering that specific training.
You could get some inspiration for other espionage-based Archetypes, but only those really combine the Bard/Spy thing in the way Lion Blades do.
Huh. I’ll definitely have to take a look at it and read through the houses. I was thinking red mantis assassins for the shadow houses. But I will have to read it first. Thanks for the suggestion!
what part of it being rare confused you?What classes mesh best with the Living Monolith?Once I hit the rare 4th level feat I stopped looking at the archetype: once they explain how that works, I'll look at it again.
No confusion. "Uncommon items are available only to those who have special training, grew up in a certain culture, or come from a particular part of the world. Rare items are almost impossible to find and are usually given out only by the GM, while unique ones are literally one-of-a-kind in the game."
So nothing in the dedication feat gives access to the rare feats requirement of "a sphinx or living monolith with this feat performs a ritual with you". Taking the dedication is no guarantee of access to rare feat needed for any other feat in the archetype and asking for a wandering sphinx or living monolith to just happen to be around when you need it no matter where you are in the world is asking quite a bit from a DM. If I ever trip over a sphinx or living monolith in Golden Road region game it might be worth a look but until then it's not worth my time.
They have a unique aversion to any ambiguity so they’re unlikely to read this archetype.
Hardly unique. Anyone that plays with different groups/DMs most likely isn't big fans of ambiguity or table variance. Less ambiguity is less work for both DM's and players in that situation.
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Hardly unique. Anyone that plays with different groups/DMs most likely isn't big fans of ambiguity or table variance. Less ambiguity is less work for both DM's and players in that situation.
Actually your the first DM I've ever met who believes ALL AMBIGUITY must be settled before they can even start looking for players. I've typically found ambiguity to most disliked by players due to a lack of trust towards DMs (potentially because they don't know who their DM will be). Unless I've misunderstood the nature of your preferences to be more extreme then they are, I would most definitely consider that unique.
But if the term unique offends you or or if your experiences dictate there are hundreds of DMs just like you then feel free to replace the word unique with "out of the ordinary based on my experiences" :)
No offense was actually intended and I apologise if it was received. I genuinely meant it to be a description of how you approach the game without any judgement attached to it (which is why I didn't describe it as strange, peculiar, extreme or any other emotive term).
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Anyone else got the sudden urge to make a Monk > Living Monolith some Performance proficiency and call the npc The Rock?
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Anyone else got the sudden urge to make a Monk > Living Monolith some Performance proficiency and call the npc The Rock?Slap on Ki Strike and Elemental Fist and you could even make them The Boulder.
If he goes into the stone stance, while a living monolith, will he be the Rock-Rock?
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runescarred works better than multiclass caster in some cases...
2 major advantages mechanically speaking:
no score prerequisites....you don't need int or cha 14 to get arcane spells
advanced spellcasting is level 10 instead of 12...if you really need that 12 lvl slot for your build
Aldori seems cool for human rogues or dex fighters(they get riposte at level 6)...maybe some dex champion build?
red mantis is perfect for flurry human rangers, or human rogues...or even dual wielding fighters but those RP requirements ban them for most PCs
Living monolith looks useful mechanically....I can imagine it with a dwarven monk...or any martial dwarf, but again....RP stuff is getting in the way...damn sphinx and egypt :)
Lastwall seems OK for any non figher that is planning to use a shield...or for anyone in an undead heavy camapaign
Hellknight is also cool...i can see some benefits there for lot's of tanks
student of perfection looks very usable by monks
lion and pathfinder are both...very campaign dependent
magic warrior...very disappointing...almost nonplayable...
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Except Magic Warrior who is very underwhelming for more than 2 feats, I find at least one or two decent or even good concept of characters for each Archetype. They are not overpowered but a lots of them are not underpowered too, they are flavorful. I am very excited to try Aldori or Mantis Rogue and a Barbarian Shoanti Runescarred.
And I am glad to not see any power creep, good for the future of the game.
So what's wrong with Magic Warrior? Does it not offer anything other than situational bonuses against divination?
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So what's wrong with Magic Warrior? Does it not offer anything other than situational bonuses against divination?
The Dedication doesn't, no. Well, it gives Skills, but so does every other Archetype. Their other stuff isn't great either (one gives nondetection, which is okay, I suppose...the others are lackluster compared to just grabbing Druid Dedication).
Magic Warrior makes the issues with the polymorph spells painfully obvious - it is essentially the "wild shape into an animal specifically" archetype, which means that the feats you spent to do that become dead as soon as Animal Form stops scaling up.
Magic Warrior makes the issues with the polymorph spells painfully obvious - it is essentially the "wild shape into an animal specifically" archetype, which means that the feats you spent to do that become dead as soon as Animal Form stops scaling up.
Red Mantis has the same issue for their Insect Form feat, but at least the other options are potentially useful.
I agree with SteelGuts. For example, as I said in another thread, I expect Pathfinder Agent will be very attractive to skill monkey characters - getting a skill of your choice at expert is quite good.
Especially since Pathfinder as a background makes a lot of sense in a lot of campaigns. If you want expert Stealth, it's going to be much easier to convince most GMs to let you be a Pathfinder than a Red Mantis Assassin.
Magic Warrior is just fluff thing with no mechanics to back it up.Aside from the Dedication you get two transformation Focus Spells and the ability to use Nondetection on yourself.
Do the transformation feats scale? Or do they become dead feats once you get too high level?
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Do the transformation feats scale? Or do they become dead feats once you get too high level?Magic Warrior is just fluff thing with no mechanics to back it up.Aside from the Dedication you get two transformation Focus Spells and the ability to use Nondetection on yourself.
Focus Spells auto-heighten.
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Focus Spells auto-heighten.Do the transformation feats scale? Or do they become dead feats once you get too high level?Magic Warrior is just fluff thing with no mechanics to back it up.Aside from the Dedication you get two transformation Focus Spells and the ability to use Nondetection on yourself.
Animal Form eventually stops getting any benefits from heightening, Rysky...
Lastwall Sentry seems like it would be a good match for a Warpriest. I also find it funny that the character shown for the Lastwall Sentry isn't using a shield considering the dedication grants Reactive Shield.
Thanks Arachnofiend.
Focus Spells auto-heighten.Do the transformation feats scale? Or do they become dead feats once you get too high level?Magic Warrior is just fluff thing with no mechanics to back it up.Aside from the Dedication you get two transformation Focus Spells and the ability to use Nondetection on yourself.
That doesn’t answer the question though. Does it?
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Magic Warrior is just fluff thing with no mechanics to back it up.Aside from the Dedication you get two transformation Focus Spells and the ability to use Nondetection on yourself.
The campaigns where non-detection on a PC has any value are extremely specific. I have never played or ran one where a player has wanted to cast this spell. The one where a +1 on saving throw against divination spell are useful are probably ZERO. Aren't those spells supposed to be cast multiple times to keep tabs on you?
The structure of Pathfinder APs make it so thwarting divination would either derail the entire thing or be irrelevant.
Now, it does have other abilities, but they are pretty disappointing too. Can't even get natural attacks or anything from their animal until the second spell, and it's not abilities you want at medium-high levels.
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Magic Warrior is just fluff thing with no mechanics to back it up.Aside from the Dedication you get two transformation Focus Spells and the ability to use Nondetection on yourself.The campaigns where non-detection on a PC has any value are extremely specific. I have never played or ran one where a player has wanted to cast this spell. The one where a +1 on saving throw against divination spell are useful are probably ZERO. Aren't those spells supposed to be cast multiple times to keep tabs on you?
The structure of Pathfinder APs make it so thwarting divination would either derail the entire thing or be irrelevant.
Now, it does have other abilities, but they are pretty disappointing too. Can't even get natural attacks or anything from their animal until the second spell, and it's not abilities you want at medium-high levels.
”I won’t use these in my campaign” =/= “has no mechanics”
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Animal Form eventually stops getting any benefits from heightening, Rysky...Focus Spells auto-heighten.Do the transformation feats scale? Or do they become dead feats once you get too high level?Magic Warrior is just fluff thing with no mechanics to back it up.Aside from the Dedication you get two transformation Focus Spells and the ability to use Nondetection on yourself.
Ah I see, hmm.
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”I won’t use these in my campaign” =/= “has no mechanics”Magic Warrior is just fluff thing with no mechanics to back it up.Aside from the Dedication you get two transformation Focus Spells and the ability to use Nondetection on yourself.The campaigns where non-detection on a PC has any value are extremely specific. I have never played or ran one where a player has wanted to cast this spell. The one where a +1 on saving throw against divination spell are useful are probably ZERO. Aren't those spells supposed to be cast multiple times to keep tabs on you?
The structure of Pathfinder APs make it so thwarting divination would either derail the entire thing or be irrelevant.
Now, it does have other abilities, but they are pretty disappointing too. Can't even get natural attacks or anything from their animal until the second spell, and it's not abilities you want at medium-high levels.
Name one in an AP if you want.
Name one in an AP if you want.
Isn't nondetection super useful in anything intrigue based (like Hell's Rebels or War for the Crown, say), unless the GM just handwaves "the baddie didn't think to scry you."
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Name one in an AP if you want.Isn't nondetection super useful in anything intrigue based (like Hell's Rebels or War for the Crown, say), unless the GM just handwaves "the baddie didn't think to scry you."
I wouldn't say super useful. Full protecting yourself from scrying it difficult because it requires you to cast the spell 3 times per day (it has a duration of 8 hours) and succeed on every counteract check. An enemy could also just scry one of your friends, and while they wouldn't see you, they could surmise your location unless you're split up.
It could potentially have uses if you're anticipating other spells being used against you like Mind-Reading.
I wouldn't say super useful. Full protecting yourself from scrying it difficult because it requires you to cast the spell 3 times per day (it has a duration of 8 hours) and succeed on every counteract check. An enemy could also just scry one of your friends, and while they wouldn't see you, they could surmise your location unless you're split up.
It could potentially have uses if you're anticipating other spells being used against you like Mind-Reading.
It's super useful when the bad guy doesn't know who their enemies are yet. So you cast it before doing something they don't want to trace back to you, and the rest of the time you're just an ordinary person doing ordinary things.
At least I've always played it as "if someone is scrying a location, and someone with active nondetection on them shows up, they will be fuzzy and indistinct and impossible to identify".
I kind of think it's a good thing that much of the archetype material in the guide is fairly niche. I'd much rather they undershoot on these things than to make it so that every rogue in the world specifically wants to be a Lion Blade or something.
That said, there's a few just bafflingly niche options. Like, spending an action to maybe temporarily suppress the illusions on somebody you just punched does not feel like a complete class feat to me. I get that there's some great defensive illusion spells, but I have a hard time imagining a campaign where they're so common that it was critical that such a narrow feat also have conditions and limitations.
As far as Living Monolith goes - most of its features are purely defensive, so it makes more sense on somebody who expects to take an above-average number of hits. Short-range Tremorsense also makes more sense on somebody who wants to stand in front. Aside from that, it's mostly independent of any role. Realistically, if you wanted to go really hard on Living Monolith, the most important thing would be to be a character that can get by at their primary roles without needing too many class feats, as Living Monolith only lightly contributes to most things.
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I don't know - suppressing Invisibility or Mirror Image is pretty good, especially for the rest of your party. And at least in 1e Mirror Image was on the spell list of every caster ever.
I can definitely see it being a feat that you train into or out of based on if you expect to need it, but I think it's not bad for what it does. And more to the point, I think it's very thematic for someone who wants to make "I oppose deception and illusion" their character concept.
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I think most of the Archetypes are actually quite good (for certain characters anyway...a Monk can make good use of Student of Perfection, a Rogue can definitely benefit from Aldori Duelist, and so on).
Magic Warrior is an exception to that. That one's just kinda bad.
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Finally got my copy, a couple things that stand out:
-Godless Healing feat actually looks decent in this edition, assuming it doesn't flash with your character concept. The 5 extra HP ought to be a solid boost at low levels, but getting to use Battle Medic every hour is the real seller for me.
-Aldori archetype looks like it will mesh well with fighter class archetypes in the future that replace the initiative bump, because getting to draw your weapon for free at the start of the fight is almost worth a feat by itself.
-Lastwall Sentry is pretty good, the undead feats are skippable outside of themed campaigns (though seem solid within those campaigns) and the others seem nice, though you need to use a shield to really take advantage of the archetype.
-I rather like the new Snowball spell too. Damage isn't amazing, but it isn't too bad either, and a speed penalty will help keep enemies from advancing in you in the back.
I am so annoyed that barbs and clerics can't pick student of perfection at level two... It would help a lot to have ki strike with animal instinct or with an irori cleric...
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I think that relying on Uncommon stuff probably is wrong, but equally, so is saying something is just bad if it's only bad if you can't get Uncommon stuff (which is basically what Xenocrat did).
Or to put it another way, I don't think either the assumption that you will get Uncommon stuff or the assumption you won't is correct. If something winds up very different under the two circumstances, you should always note how it is in terms of both options unless you're talking about a specific game where you know which is true.
I agree with this, on further thought.
Basically, instead of "this is bad because the good options are uncommon", I think it's more useful to say "this is good if you can get the uncommon options, but be aware that it's not as good if you can't."
I concur.
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Finally got my copy, a couple things that stand out:
-Godless Healing feat actually looks decent in this edition, assuming it doesn't flash with your character concept. The 5 extra HP ought to be a solid boost at low levels, but getting to use Battle Medic every hour is the real seller for me.
This feat stuck out to me as a great option too; the main issue with it is that Medicine is already very skill feat heavy to come online, though I think I'd still take it on Primary Rogue/Secondary Alchemist healers. It's also an interesting option for martial classes other than Paladin who don't intend to cover healing for the whole party since you can treat Battle Medicine as a faux lay on hands.
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It’s not like they don’t scale. Their AC and attack do scale. AC is level + mod and to hit is your unarmed attack if it’s higher than the form.
Technically scaling and scaling in practice are different. Attack you can do okay if you're already martial and melee oriented (which makes the form less cool and usful, mind you), but AC? A 13th level Wizard has AC 33-34, while a Fighter of the same level has AC 34-35. Going to Animal Form drops that to AC 31. Losing 2-4 AC when you assume combat form is no longer a useful combat form whatsoever.
And that's only 4 levels after the scaling stops.