Good, bad, and ugly Lost Omens World Guide mechanical options


Advice

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Gisher wrote:
You could take two feats, wait until 9th level, and then use Multitalented to start a second dedication.
I'm personally more interested in archetypes like the ones in this book than I am multiclassing.

Then Multitalented isn't the solution. :(

PossibleCabbage wrote:
But solutions that put pressure on people to be human are something I'm concerned about in the long run, since Natural Ambition and Multitalented are pretty much the most powerful ancestry feats out there.

I agree with you on that. I'm not a fan of playing humans. At least in this edition it looks like a lot of previously separate ancestries like aasimar and will qualify as human.

Liberty's Edge

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ChibiNyan wrote:
This is what I feel happens to a lot of the archetypes right now. Like, they have some cool options in there, but it requires all of this investment that you end up worse than if you just stayed in your base class forever in the end. I think it's mostly due to the fact that a lot of dedications don't add much of anything to combat, so you end up spending 2 almighty class feats to get some "lateral" ability that can rarely make up for the investment.

I actually disagree with this. My complaint above is specifically about Fighter/Aldori Duelist. A Champion/Aldori Duelist, or Rogue, or Barbarian, or even Ranger, gets things out of Aldori Duelist that they couldn't get out of anything else, and potentially very good ones. They're effectively stealing Fighter Feats, which are some of the better Feats for straight combat in the game. That's potentially great.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
This is what I feel happens to a lot of the archetypes right now. Like, they have some cool options in there, but it requires all of this investment that you end up worse than if you just stayed in your base class forever in the end. I think it's mostly due to the fact that a lot of dedications don't add much of anything to combat, so you end up spending 2 almighty class feats to get some "lateral" ability that can rarely make up for the investment.
I actually disagree with this. My complaint above is specifically about Fighter/Aldori Duelist. A Champion/Aldori Duelist, or Rogue, or Barbarian, or even Ranger, gets things out of Aldori Duelist that they couldn't get out of anything else, and potentially very good ones. They're effectively stealing Fighter Feats, which are some of the better Feats for straight combat in the game. That's potentially great.

It does offer really good options for a rogue, but they need to take Weapon Proficiency twice just to qualify for the dedication (or Weapon Proficiency and Unconventional Weaponry). That's a pretty serious investment for early levels.


It's only rogues (and monks, but that's weird) among the martials who need to take weapon proficiency twice, right? Since the weapon proficiency general feat upgrades martial to a specific advanced weapon.

Still "weapon proficiency" two times at level 1 is available to humans with the versatile heritage, and you can still spend your 5th level ancestry feat on natural ambition.

I don't think Unconventional Weaponry by RAW works for the Dueling Sword since I think the "common in another culture" means specifically the rarity "common" and applies to things like "Katanas in Tien Xia". RAI it might though.

Liberty's Edge

Gisher wrote:
It does offer really good options for a rogue, but they need to take Weapon Proficiency twice just to qualify for the dedication (or Weapon Proficiency and Unconventional Weaponry). That's a pretty serious investment for early levels.

A Human Rogue can have it at 1st level. It's an investment, but not an unworkable one.


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Being a human so you can eat all the feat taxes to buy into the thing you really want in a timely fashion has some serious shades of PF1 and not in a good way.


One thing I think merits specific consideration is whether the intent of the retraining rules is to prevent a non-human ranger, champion, or barbarian who will be taking the weapon proficiency general feat at 3rd level from retraining their 2nd level feat to the Aldori dedication.

Hopefully the GMG has more on retraining.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

One thing I think merits specific consideration is whether the intent of the retraining rules is to prevent a non-human ranger, champion, or barbarian who will be taking the weapon proficiency general feat at 3rd level from retraining their 2nd level feat to the Aldori dedication.

Hopefully the GMG has more on retraining.

It's not that complex from what I saw? Could you have taken Aldori dedication before level 3? If yes, then take it. If not, then nope. Am I missing something here or?


How do you know you could take it at the time? You would either need really good memory or keep a change log.

Using "ask he GM" is not a valid answer as that can be done even if there were no rules to retrain.


Temperans wrote:
How do you know you could take it at the time?

If the feat requires proficiency in a weapon and you took weapon proficiency as your level 3 feat, then clearly you don't qualify for it at level 2.

If it requires 14 strength and you didn't put a stat bump into strength until level 5, you didn't qualify for it at level 2.

That seems relatively straight forward tbh.


Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

One thing I think merits specific consideration is whether the intent of the retraining rules is to prevent a non-human ranger, champion, or barbarian who will be taking the weapon proficiency general feat at 3rd level from retraining their 2nd level feat to the Aldori dedication.

Hopefully the GMG has more on retraining.

It's not that complex from what I saw? Could you have taken Aldori dedication before level 3? If yes, then take it. If not, then nope. Am I missing something here or?

This seems unnecessarily punitive to all non-human ancestries, who will be unable to access any archetype focused around an advanced weapon unless they are fighters or it's an ancestral weapon until level 4. It just feels bad to take a level 2 feat in a level 4 slot.

After all, humans can have proficiency in any of every ancestry's advanced weapons (via unconventional weaponry) but the earliest a dwarf/elf/gnome/etc. non-fighter can get proficiency in dueling swords or sawtooth sabres is 3rd level.

Liberty's Edge

Squiggit wrote:
Being a human so you can eat all the feat taxes to buy into the thing you really want in a timely fashion has some serious shades of PF1 and not in a good way.

Rogues (or non-Warpriest spellcasters) going specifically for Advanced Weapons that are not Ancestry-specific are pretty much the only people who can't get whatever they want by 3rd or 4th level.


At least now we have a very specific level at which the game will start letting you do weird stuff. None of this wishy washy we start at whatever level the GM says, all PF2 games should start at FOUR exactly.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rogues (or non-Warpriest spellcasters) going specifically for Advanced Weapons that are not Ancestry-specific are pretty much the only people who can't get whatever they want by 3rd or 4th level.

You say 'only' but this is a level 2 feat that literally only one of the game's twelve classes can take at level 2 unless you're a specific heritage of a specific ancestry. That's not 'only', that's ninety percent. It drops from 11 to seven and a half if you go up to level 4, but that's still nearly two thirds, which still isn't very only.

You're realistically looking at a level 8 entry for a majority of the game's classes, including martials like the monk and rogue. Level 12 if you're a wizard.

Liberty's Edge

That's only for Advanced Weapons though. And only those that are atypical for your Ancestry (you can manage those typical of your Ancestry by level 3 for anyone but Wizards).

That combination is a very niche thing. IMO, basically no spellcasters should bother with them, and frankly few martial characters should either.


I know there's been some chatter about it in this thread; the dueling sword is supposed to be sp and not gp. It was mentioned on the Pathfinder Fridays twitch stream.

(Sorry if it's been mentioned, but ctrl+f didn't turn anything up)


The real overpriced items are the swim fins and jelly fish lanterns. Not to mention the Black Pearl Aeon Stone that costs 2000 units of unspecified currency.


Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Rysky wrote:
The latter.

Oh no.

Though I suppose one could start with the archetype, then at 9 and up dip into a multiclass at least.

It goes back to the days of AD&D when half-elves were better than anyone else at multiclassing.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Temperans wrote:

How do you know you could take it at the time? You would either need really good memory or keep a change log.

Using "ask he GM" is not a valid answer as that can be done even if there were no rules to retrain.

Its fairly easy and part of why the character sheet has all your option slots with a level notation.


John Lynch 106 wrote:
Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Rysky wrote:
The latter.

Oh no.

Though I suppose one could start with the archetype, then at 9 and up dip into a multiclass at least.
It goes back to the days of AD&D when half-elves were better than anyone else at multiclassing.

PF1 half-elves and the multiclassing human feat only let you keep the favored class bonus.

Aka humans got a lot more powerful when it comes to multiclassing.


Malk_Content wrote:
Temperans wrote:

How do you know you could take it at the time? You would either need really good memory or keep a change log.

Using "ask he GM" is not a valid answer as that can be done even if there were no rules to retrain.

Its fairly easy and part of why the character sheet has all your option slots with a level notation.

Why I personally use that phone app since it tracks everything level by level, Pathbuilder 2 I believe was the name. But even without it, you should be able to backtrack what you had with any character sheet.


Wish I could remember who said it, but someone on these forums once made a comment about flavor vs. mechanical when it comes to figuring out if you can take feats at earlier levels, and I thought it was a really nice rule of thumb since I tend to make my own character sheet templates and don't track all of my feats at different levels. Mechanically a rogue needs to get a general feat at 3 to qualify for an advanced weapon, so they couldn't retrain their 2nd-level feat to become a duelist. They could have theoretically met a sphynx at 2nd level, though, so it would be possible for them to have learned the dedication to become a living monolith.


Perpdepog wrote:
Wish I could remember who said it, but someone on these forums once made a comment about flavor vs. mechanical when it comes to figuring out if you can take feats at earlier levels, and I thought it was a really nice rule of thumb since I tend to make my own character sheet templates and don't track all of my feats at different levels. Mechanically a rogue needs to get a general feat at 3 to qualify for an advanced weapon, so they couldn't retrain their 2nd-level feat to become a duelist. They could have theoretically met a sphynx at 2nd level, though, so it would be possible for them to have learned the dedication to become a living monolith.

Just a bit curious, how do you not track feats by level? Even when writing things down in text pad, I'd go 2nd: Class Feat(Sudden Charge) 3rd: Ancestry Feat(etc), etc.

I'd get losing track of skill increases during leveling if you make a very base text document but feats are a strange thing to lose track of.


Corvo Spiritwind wrote:
Perpdepog wrote:
Wish I could remember who said it, but someone on these forums once made a comment about flavor vs. mechanical when it comes to figuring out if you can take feats at earlier levels, and I thought it was a really nice rule of thumb since I tend to make my own character sheet templates and don't track all of my feats at different levels. Mechanically a rogue needs to get a general feat at 3 to qualify for an advanced weapon, so they couldn't retrain their 2nd-level feat to become a duelist. They could have theoretically met a sphynx at 2nd level, though, so it would be possible for them to have learned the dedication to become a living monolith.

Just a bit curious, how do you not track feats by level? Even when writing things down in text pad, I'd go 2nd: Class Feat(Sudden Charge) 3rd: Ancestry Feat(etc), etc.

I'd get losing track of skill increases during leveling if you make a very base text document but feats are a strange thing to lose track of.

I lump each category of feat with others of the same type in different sections of the character sheet--Ancestry Feats, Class Feats, Class Features, General Feats, etc--and usually just remember which feats I took when, listing the feats in alphabetical order. For right now it's not much of an issue for me because I haven't ever really built for retraining and rarely plan more than two or three levels ahead, but I'm also in the opening stages of building a character sheet template I enjoy, so I may actually steal your idea and list feats by level instead of name, or put the level after the name ... really which ever I think looks nicer and flows better with my screen reader.

Usually I patterned my character sheets off of the bestiary monster/NPC entries because they were built with the same basic information, but that's not as doable in PF2E as it is in PF1/SF since players have a fair bit of extra stuff to be keeping track of.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gisher wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Gisher wrote:
You could take two feats, wait until 9th level, and then use Multitalented to start a second dedication.
I'm personally more interested in archetypes like the ones in this book than I am multiclassing.

Then Multitalented isn't the solution. :(

PossibleCabbage wrote:
But solutions that put pressure on people to be human are something I'm concerned about in the long run, since Natural Ambition and Multitalented are pretty much the most powerful ancestry feats out there.
I agree with you on that. I'm not a fan of playing humans. At least in this edition it looks like a lot of previously separate ancestries like aasimar and will qualify as human.

If you are not wanting to invest heavily in two or more mental stats, then a Half-Elf taking Multitalented at 9th level might be the way to start wizard spell advancement, as a Half-Elf with that feat does not have to meet the ability score prerequisites of the multiclass dedication feat he takes at that time. Note that in PF2, we may be looking at a situation where many of the races that were considered half-human or even non-human in PF1 will be human heritages in PF2. And if you are interested in reproducing the AD&D 1st edition ranger, that class was pretty much limited to humans and half-elves anyway.

But whether that second dedication feat gives you any other problems depends on what other archetypes you are interested in.

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