My opinions on PF2 after Plaguestone


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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CorvusMask wrote:

My problem with automatic bonus progression was mostly that it actually broke the APs and bestiary monsters at high levels :p

RotR for example doesn't expect that everyone at level 17 has +5 resistance cloak +5 deflection and +6 to all stats <_<; Enemy dcs were too low for pcs to not automatically succeed and other shenanigans.

While it was optimal to get all big six items, the math didn't actually handle that very well in 1e...

I am finding this as well

Mainly with DCs.

I am in Book 4 of Hells Rebels and most of the DCs don't go higher than 20. And my group once certain spells are in effect are getting the high teens on most saves it seems

AC also seems to be something they can easily get very high to the point that certain mooks might as well not be there because they are just wasting time

Also giving all these boosts and freeing up things like cloak slots make the PCs very dangerous

All that said I am a big fan of ABP. It just means I need to apply it to most enemies using HeroLab to even make things slightly interesting (Bestiary is another matter). But that is partial consequence of many class levelled enemies being, to put it charitably, "sub-optimally" built for fighting hyper focused PCs.

Dark Archive

Yeaaaah, applying ABP to NPCs from bestiary without class levels is hard <_< I tried it and couldn't really figure it out well


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It’s interesting to see the difference in tone between here and outside sites (YouTube, Reddit, etc) People coming to this fresh have none of those hang ups or care about the d&d wars since they weren’t even aware of them. They’re just looking at it as a new game to play and they’re enjoying it on its own sake. People here seem a bit more attached to old ways of doing things, but it pretty much proves the point on why they made 2e. You were never going to appeal to people who liked all the issues that 1e gave and actually bring in a new audience. They had to simplify some things and they evolved stuff from 1e whole bringing in stuff from other editions as well to make 2.


CorvusMask wrote:
Yeaaaah, applying ABP to NPCs from bestiary without class levels is hard <_< I tried it and couldn't really figure it out well

Well Herolab does it on HD which isn't perfect but it is a start

So a Bearded Devil gets:

+2 AC
+1 Attack and Damage
+1 Fort and Reflex
+2 Will

As an example

I also often do "rounding" up of stats as lots of monsters have 15's, 19's and 21's that don't do anything

I find this partially adjusts for player ABP and player 20 point buy

I haven't actually used ABP on Bestiary monsters to date as I am not 100% certain some need it as much as the class levelled NPC antagonists (although lots of those need completely rebuilding in the first place)

I switched on ABP with an Aboleth with Wizard class levels (I think only 3 wizard levels). Due to HD the results were quite horrifying. So it is more of an art than a science I think

For a more extreme example a Bone Devil gets:

+2 hit and damage
+5 AC
+ 3 Fort and Reflex
+4 Will

The AC is the clear outlier here because the creature gets an armour enhancement to it's "clothing" as well as deflection and Natural armour boosts. I would say don't apply that but that is still +3 AC

And save DCs aren't really helped in most cases (but it depends on the stat boosts applied)

ABP helps a lot but it seems mainly with PC AC.
I recently rebuilt a bunch of allied NPCs using it and some of them would have been more than 10 points lower without it and are still some way short (lower levelled ones but the point still stands)


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Thank you for your post perception check, it is not only my opinion but an opportunity to discuss the game. To be honest I wrote this post at the beginning for people like you and me who were considering PF2 and could find themselves on each side of liking/disliking the game.

Sorry to know that you don’t like this iteration. Maybe given time and supplements you will grow to give it another try, if not I am sure you will have PF1 that give you joy!

I am glad to see that post not being an edition war, and people giving some useful tips, and dev commenting on their design. I feel that this kind of discussion is useful on many levels, and that we can all be respectful around a passion we all got, and not just be **** about it on the internet.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Representative

I have removed some posts. Please refrain from personal attacks, and take personal conversations to your DMs.

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