Let's talk about some niche, unexpected, weird, or fun builds.


Advice

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MaxAstro wrote:
The best part is that bashing with a shield that doesn't have a boss gains the agile trait, so you have a bossed shield and unbossed shield and you can use all of the agile-requiring TWF feats.

Sorry for sticking with the shields discussion, but I only heard that here:

What, How and Where? The martial weapons list Shield Bash as non-agile and nowhere did I find that Shield Bashs are agile. Can you tell me where it says that please?


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I present to you, The Master Yeeter:

Master Yeeter was a simple human (or half-elf/half-orc), he was spending his time crafting fancy little wooden sculptures, in his simple looking wooden cabin, in an unnamed (mostly wooden) forest.

But then a brawl erupted by some murderhobos chasing goblins, and they crashed on his pretty little wooden sculptures.

Annoyed, he grabbed a goblin and he Yeeted it away, unfortunately, the goblin landed on one such sculpture and got impaled.

Actually angry this time around that one more of his sculptures got broken, he grabbed a murderhobo that was nearby, and Yeeted him away as well, only to land on a second sculpture, one with pretty lights on it, and electrocuted the poor adventurer.

Dispirited, he gathered his satchel of sculpting supplies (i.e. stakes, vials, nails, spears, deadly blades, you know, the usual) and moved on.

Our Master Yeeter is a Human/Half-X Ranger, fighting with a Hatchet on one hand and a spiked Gauntlet on the other. He has Flurry Edge.

Level 1: Twin takedown
Level 2: Fighter MC
Level 4: Combat Grab
Level 6: Snare Specialist
Level 8: Powerful Snares
Level 9(human): Monk MC
Level 10: Crushing grab
Level 12: Yeet (Whirling Throw)
-build complete-
Level 14: Lightning snares
Level 16: Ubiquitous Snares

He can craft (free) snares in 1-3 interact Actions, and then Slash Slash with his Hatchet (at +0/-2), grab for free with his hand/gauntlet (via combat grab, doing damage from the Grab as well equal to his Strength), and Yeet the poor victim on top of his Snare (which are usually pretty deadly by themselves)


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AoE Ranger

Are you jealous of these casters having all the fun blasting a lot of enemies? Say no more, now you can do it too.

Flurry Edge

Level 1: Animal Companion Bear or Bird
Level 2: Alchemist Dedication
Level 4: Quick Draw
Level 6: Mature Animal Companion
Level 8: Free
Level 10: Incredible Companion
Done

Put the bear in range of more than one creature and use the work together, throw an bomb and see the bear claw every creature that took splash damage with their reach.

Bird can do the same but with bleed damage.

Alchemist main works too but the Animal Companion work together will be weaker and the creature will take more splash damage because of the Alchemist feats.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
masda_gib wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
The best part is that bashing with a shield that doesn't have a boss gains the agile trait, so you have a bossed shield and unbossed shield and you can use all of the agile-requiring TWF feats.

Sorry for sticking with the shields discussion, but I only heard that here:

What, How and Where? The martial weapons list Shield Bash as non-agile and nowhere did I find that Shield Bashs are agile. Can you tell me where it says that please?

Oh GDI, THAT messes things up. :/ Fantasy Grounds seems to incorrectly list it as being agile.

Well, need to make a few tweaks to that build, then...


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Kyrone wrote:

AoE Ranger

Are you jealous of these casters having all the fun blasting a lot of enemies? Say no more, now you can do it too.

Flurry Edge

Level 1: Animal Companion Bear or Bird
Level 2: Alchemist Dedication
Level 4: Quick Draw
Level 6: Mature Animal Companion
Level 8: Free
Level 10: Incredible Companion
Done

Put the bear in range of more than one creature and use the work together, throw an bomb and see the bear claw every creature that took splash damage with their reach.

Bird can do the same but with bleed damage.

Alchemist main works too but the Animal Companion work together will be weaker and the creature will take more splash damage because of the Alchemist feats.

Not sure that works.

With bombs you Strike at ONE creature.
Splash damage is not part of the strike damage and has seperate rules how/what it does (it isn't multiplied by a critical, doesn't get affected by Strike damage increases and etc)

Both Bear and Bird only attack the creatures you Strike.


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This is either an interesting build or a completely illegal one (still waiting to hear about the ruling on this):

The Two-Handed Weapon, with Shield build.

Half-elf with Otherworldly Magic (take Shield as an Arcane spell). Then take fighter but use some of your class feats to get Cleric Archetype Spellcasting and (via Multitalented) Bard Archetype Spellcasting. Take Shield as a Divine spell. Take Shield as an Occult Spell. Take Power Attack and Furious Focus.

Ok, you are set. You have a large two handed weapon to beat things up with. When someone hits you, you cast Arcane Shield to mitigate the damage. That cantrip has a 10 minute recharge. But if someone hits you a second time (say in the next round), then you cast Divine Shield. And if they hit you a third time (say in the third round), then you cast Occult Shield! Hopefully, after that, you have pasted your opponent via Power Attack.

So it is an interesting idea. Is it legal? I don't know. It depends on whether you can learn spells of the same name from different lists and what the 10 minute recharge on Shield applies to (just the specific Arcane Shield, if cast as an Arcane spell, or to all of Arcane, Divine and Occult Shields if any one of them is cast?).

For Gods, Nethys seems like a good choice, although Iori could work. Both let you take the Enigma Muse, which gives you Bardic Lore. Maybe even go for Cleric Archetype feats to get Domain spells in Protection or Might. Take some Athletics friendly skill feats. Heck you could be casting 8th level Cleric and Bard spells if you really want to.

And you have the Fighter chasis too (complete with Attack of Opportunity - not sure you need the Shield Block feat to use the Shield spell, but if you need it you have it). Nice armor, nice weapons, nice hp. Since you are half-elf you could take the human ancestry feat Clever Improvisor to mititage your relative lack of skills known.


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It's not Arcane Shield, it's Shield, using the Arcane tradition.
Shield says if used to block you can't cast it ("the Shield spell") again.
Those other Cantrips you have, they're also the Shield spell. You can't cast them.
Much like if you had a Primal Fireball and an Arcane Fireball. If not allowed to cast "the Fireball spell" you couldn't cast either.

Sorry. I kinda hoped to do the same trick.


The Bomb-Sniper

Ranger with Precision edge, high DEX.
Lvl 2 Alchemist Dedication, get all bomb recipes
Lvl 4 Far Shot
Lvl 6 Hunted Shot
Lvl 8 Expert Alchemy

Throw bombs really far with martial precision, dealing precision elemental damage with each hit. Use Hunted Shot to maximise the chance of getting the bombs critical effect.
Grab your bow when you run out of bombs.


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masda_gib wrote:

The Bomb-Sniper

Ranger with Precision edge, high DEX.
Lvl 2 Alchemist Dedication, get all bomb recipes
Lvl 4 Far Shot
Lvl 6 Hunted Shot
Lvl 8 Expert Alchemy

Throw bombs really far with martial precision, dealing precision elemental damage with each hit. Use Hunted Shot to maximise the chance of getting the bombs critical effect.
Grab your bow when you run out of bombs.

Last night was just speculating this with a Fighter or Rogue, but I like yours better because "Bombs" is a poor weapon group when you have such a limited supply and ranged Sneaks are hard after round one. Plus Quick Draw works well.

And if you can get in the Master Monster Hunter, you can deduce enemy weaknesses really well.
Info/Hunt Prey/Quick Draw-Throw
And Hunt Prey's effect on increments is pretty nice.
I'll have to give the build another attempt.
Cheers


masda_gib wrote:

The Bomb-Sniper

Ranger with Precision edge, high DEX.
Lvl 2 Alchemist Dedication, get all bomb recipes
Lvl 4 Far Shot
Lvl 6 Hunted Shot
Lvl 8 Expert Alchemy

Throw bombs really far with martial precision, dealing precision elemental damage with each hit. Use Hunted Shot to maximise the chance of getting the bombs critical effect.
Grab your bow when you run out of bombs.

I'm sorry to say that Hunted Shot doesn't work with alchemical bombs, since they don't specify that they have a reload rate of 1 on their weapon table like bows or shuriken do.


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Ventnor wrote:
masda_gib wrote:

The Bomb-Sniper

Ranger with Precision edge, high DEX.
Lvl 2 Alchemist Dedication, get all bomb recipes
Lvl 4 Far Shot
Lvl 6 Hunted Shot
Lvl 8 Expert Alchemy

Throw bombs really far with martial precision, dealing precision elemental damage with each hit. Use Hunted Shot to maximise the chance of getting the bombs critical effect.
Grab your bow when you run out of bombs.

I'm sorry to say that Hunted Shot doesn't work with alchemical bombs, since they don't specify that they have a reload rate of 1 on their weapon table like bows or shuriken do.

Pretty sure he meant Hunter Aim, and not shot.

I mean, fishing for Crit, very limited resource, picked at a later level, precision edge, and all that


shroudb wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
masda_gib wrote:

The Bomb-Sniper

Ranger with Precision edge, high DEX.
Lvl 2 Alchemist Dedication, get all bomb recipes
Lvl 4 Far Shot
Lvl 6 Hunted Shot
Lvl 8 Expert Alchemy

Throw bombs really far with martial precision, dealing precision elemental damage with each hit. Use Hunted Shot to maximise the chance of getting the bombs critical effect.
Grab your bow when you run out of bombs.

I'm sorry to say that Hunted Shot doesn't work with alchemical bombs, since they don't specify that they have a reload rate of 1 on their weapon table like bows or shuriken do.

Pretty sure he meant Hunter Aim, and not shot.

I mean, fishing for Crit, very limited resource, picked at a later level, precision edge, and all that

Hunted Shot is great with the bow he uses as backup.

The build doesn't actually get enough bombs for multiple combats (or even one long combat) until higher levels. And sometimes a utility alchemical item is precious enough you have even fewer bombs.

Though yes, perhaps he meant a higher level feat given the slot, though he does have the 1st level one unstated so could get it there. Should.


shroudb wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
masda_gib wrote:

The Bomb-Sniper

Ranger with Precision edge, high DEX.
Lvl 2 Alchemist Dedication, get all bomb recipes
Lvl 4 Far Shot
Lvl 6 Hunted Shot
Lvl 8 Expert Alchemy

Throw bombs really far with martial precision, dealing precision elemental damage with each hit. Use Hunted Shot to maximise the chance of getting the bombs critical effect.
Grab your bow when you run out of bombs.

I'm sorry to say that Hunted Shot doesn't work with alchemical bombs, since they don't specify that they have a reload rate of 1 on their weapon table like bows or shuriken do.

Pretty sure he meant Hunter Aim, and not shot.

I mean, fishing for Crit, very limited resource, picked at a later level, precision edge, and all that

Yes, I meant Hunters Aim. The fingers did not listen to the brain.

Not many other Ranger feats work with bombs. Snap Shot reads like it could work... but I don't know if I would want that with splash damage and all. It would be badass though.


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I wish there was a way to combine "quick bomber" with feats that involve a ranged attack that are compatible with thrown bombs (like Hunter's Aim). As it stands, I am left to wonder what the alchemist is doing with their hands a lot of the time.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I wish there was a way to combine "quick bomber" with feats that involve a ranged attack that are compatible with thrown bombs (like Hunter's Aim). As it stands, I am left to wonder what the alchemist is doing with their hands a lot of the time.

considering that RAW they are often holding 2 items in one hand at level 9, and 3 items at level 15, those arms are really weird.


shroudb wrote:

I present to you, The Master Yeeter:

Master Yeeter was a simple human (or half-elf/half-orc), he was spending his time crafting fancy little wooden sculptures, in his simple looking wooden cabin, in an unnamed (mostly wooden) forest.

But then a brawl erupted by some murderhobos chasing goblins, and they crashed on his pretty little wooden sculptures.

Annoyed, he grabbed a goblin and he Yeeted it away, unfortunately, the goblin landed on one such sculpture and got impaled.

Actually angry this time around that one more of his sculptures got broken, he grabbed a murderhobo that was nearby, and Yeeted him away as well, only to land on a second sculpture, one with pretty lights on it, and electrocuted the poor adventurer.

Dispirited, he gathered his satchel of sculpting supplies (i.e. stakes, vials, nails, spears, deadly blades, you know, the usual) and moved on.

Our Master Yeeter is a Human/Half-X Ranger, fighting with a Hatchet on one hand and a spiked Gauntlet on the other. He has Flurry Edge.

Level 1: Twin takedown
Level 2: Fighter MC
Level 4: Combat Grab
Level 6: Snare Specialist
Level 8: Powerful Snares
Level 9(human): Monk MC
Level 10: Crushing grab
Level 12: Yeet (Whirling Throw)
-build complete-
Level 14: Lightning snares
Level 16: Ubiquitous Snares

He can craft (free) snares in 1-3 interact Actions, and then Slash Slash with his Hatchet (at +0/-2), grab for free with his hand/gauntlet (via combat grab, doing damage from the Grab as well equal to his Strength), and Yeet the poor victim on top of his Snare (which are usually pretty deadly by themselves)

I absolutely love this concept. Do you think it's really viable?


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shroudb wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I wish there was a way to combine "quick bomber" with feats that involve a ranged attack that are compatible with thrown bombs (like Hunter's Aim). As it stands, I am left to wonder what the alchemist is doing with their hands a lot of the time.

considering that RAW they are often holding 2 items in one hand at level 9, and 3 items at level 15, those arms are really weird.

Quick Alchemy costs 1 action, involves a 10-20 lb kit worth of stuff without commenting on where it is or goes, and has requires only one hand. The Alchemist is a mystery to me.


shroudb wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I wish there was a way to combine "quick bomber" with feats that involve a ranged attack that are compatible with thrown bombs (like Hunter's Aim). As it stands, I am left to wonder what the alchemist is doing with their hands a lot of the time.

considering that RAW they are often holding 2 items in one hand at level 9, and 3 items at level 15, those arms are really weird.

It’s all in the fingers.


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masda_gib wrote:
shroudb wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
masda_gib wrote:

The Bomb-Sniper

Ranger with Precision edge, high DEX.
Lvl 2 Alchemist Dedication, get all bomb recipes
Lvl 4 Far Shot
Lvl 6 Hunted Shot
Lvl 8 Expert Alchemy

Throw bombs really far with martial precision, dealing precision elemental damage with each hit. Use Hunted Shot to maximise the chance of getting the bombs critical effect.
Grab your bow when you run out of bombs.

I'm sorry to say that Hunted Shot doesn't work with alchemical bombs, since they don't specify that they have a reload rate of 1 on their weapon table like bows or shuriken do.

Pretty sure he meant Hunter Aim, and not shot.

I mean, fishing for Crit, very limited resource, picked at a later level, precision edge, and all that

Yes, I meant Hunters Aim. The fingers did not listen to the brain.

Not many other Ranger feats work with bombs. Snap Shot reads like it could work... but I don't know if I would want that with splash damage and all. It would be badass though.

Might not be the worst idea if you throw alchemist's fire point blank as a Charhide Goblin or frost vials as a snow goblin.


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Charlesfire wrote:
shroudb wrote:

I present to you, The Master Yeeter:

Master Yeeter was a simple human (or half-elf/half-orc), he was spending his time crafting fancy little wooden sculptures, in his simple looking wooden cabin, in an unnamed (mostly wooden) forest.

But then a brawl erupted by some murderhobos chasing goblins, and they crashed on his pretty little wooden sculptures.

Annoyed, he grabbed a goblin and he Yeeted it away, unfortunately, the goblin landed on one such sculpture and got impaled.

Actually angry this time around that one more of his sculptures got broken, he grabbed a murderhobo that was nearby, and Yeeted him away as well, only to land on a second sculpture, one with pretty lights on it, and electrocuted the poor adventurer.

Dispirited, he gathered his satchel of sculpting supplies (i.e. stakes, vials, nails, spears, deadly blades, you know, the usual) and moved on.

Our Master Yeeter is a Human/Half-X Ranger, fighting with a Hatchet on one hand and a spiked Gauntlet on the other. He has Flurry Edge.

Level 1: Twin takedown
Level 2: Fighter MC
Level 4: Combat Grab
Level 6: Snare Specialist
Level 8: Powerful Snares
Level 9(human): Monk MC
Level 10: Crushing grab
Level 12: Yeet (Whirling Throw)
-build complete-
Level 14: Lightning snares
Level 16: Ubiquitous Snares

He can craft (free) snares in 1-3 interact Actions, and then Slash Slash with his Hatchet (at +0/-2), grab for free with his hand/gauntlet (via combat grab, doing damage from the Grab as well equal to his Strength), and Yeet the poor victim on top of his Snare (which are usually pretty deadly by themselves)

I absolutely love this concept. Do you think it's really viable?

snares do quite a bit more damage than an equal level spell. So they do have great "burst potential" but require a "1 turn setup".

As an example, at level 12 when you can yeet the victims on them, a level 12 Scything blade snare is 19d8 damage (85.5)

A 6th level single target spell, like Disintegrate deals 12d10 (66)

Even outside the snare thing, he still is as capable a dual wielder ranger can be, with 2 agile weapons and twin takedown for pure damage, or quite powerful battlefield manipulation via combat grab and whirling throw.

so yeah, i do think that it is quite a viable and strong setup.

if i were to "optimize" this, maybe lighning snares isn't necessary, but i like the 1 action setup since it free's up just enough actions to hunt and move next to your prey for next round Yeet.

Shadow Lodge

I was working on how to make a snare build. Sounds like a good way to do it.


shroudb wrote:
Charlesfire wrote:
shroudb wrote:

I present to you, The Master Yeeter:

Master Yeeter was a simple human (or half-elf/half-orc), he was spending his time crafting fancy little wooden sculptures, in his simple looking wooden cabin, in an unnamed (mostly wooden) forest.

But then a brawl erupted by some murderhobos chasing goblins, and they crashed on his pretty little wooden sculptures.

Annoyed, he grabbed a goblin and he Yeeted it away, unfortunately, the goblin landed on one such sculpture and got impaled.

Actually angry this time around that one more of his sculptures got broken, he grabbed a murderhobo that was nearby, and Yeeted him away as well, only to land on a second sculpture, one with pretty lights on it, and electrocuted the poor adventurer.

Dispirited, he gathered his satchel of sculpting supplies (i.e. stakes, vials, nails, spears, deadly blades, you know, the usual) and moved on.

Our Master Yeeter is a Human/Half-X Ranger, fighting with a Hatchet on one hand and a spiked Gauntlet on the other. He has Flurry Edge.

Level 1: Twin takedown
Level 2: Fighter MC
Level 4: Combat Grab
Level 6: Snare Specialist
Level 8: Powerful Snares
Level 9(human): Monk MC
Level 10: Crushing grab
Level 12: Yeet (Whirling Throw)
-build complete-
Level 14: Lightning snares
Level 16: Ubiquitous Snares

He can craft (free) snares in 1-3 interact Actions, and then Slash Slash with his Hatchet (at +0/-2), grab for free with his hand/gauntlet (via combat grab, doing damage from the Grab as well equal to his Strength), and Yeet the poor victim on top of his Snare (which are usually pretty deadly by themselves)

I absolutely love this concept. Do you think it's really viable?

snares do quite a bit more damage than an equal level spell. So they do have great "burst potential" but require a "1 turn setup".

As an example, at level 12 when you can yeet the victims on them, a level 12 Scything blade snare is 19d8 damage (85.5)

A 6th level single target spell, like...

thistledown wrote:
I was working on how to make a snare build. Sounds like a good way to do it.

just as a heads up, i accidentaly used the snare above the Scything for the damage.

Scything is 14d8 not 19d8, still it's around 63 damage which is around Disintegrate damage, so still fine damage wise.


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Raging Alchemist (not to be confused with 1e’s Rage Chemist).

Level 1 Barbarian; Pick your flavor of Rage and the Raging Thrower feat.

Level 2 MC Alchemist

That’s pretty much it. Go more Alchemist for more Bombs, better throwing and better splash damage; or go Fighter for Point Blank and Double-Shot; or Ranger for better ranged options. Quick Alchemy doesn’t have the Concentrate Trait so should be usable while raging. Bombs are Martial so better crit and hit chance.

Bonus Build:

Level 1 Alchemist Bomber Research Field

Level 2 MC Spirit Barbarian

Level 4 Basic Fury: Raging Thrower feat

Level 6 Instinct Ability

Now Rage for Positive Damage and throw Holy Handgranades for days.


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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Now Rage for Positive Damage and throw Holy Handgranades for days.

Yeah Trevor belmont!!!

Just one question what about your persistent damage do you think it get persistent positive damage??

Ps:sorry english isn't my main language.


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Dusty Crow wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Now Rage for Positive Damage and throw Holy Handgranades for days.

Yeah Trevor belmont!!!

Just one question what about your persistent damage do you think it get persistent positive damage??

Ps:sorry english isn't my main language.

It is assumed (confirmed? Not sure) by a lot (most?) that actually it's a typo, and spirit barb converts the BONUS damage to poisitive/negative like the other rages, NOT the base.


I would have think the same but having watch the AP Knight of everflame with Jason Bulmahn and Omelette one of the character use it and do 19 positive damage and Jason dont correct her when she tell that.


Dusty Crow wrote:
I would have think the same but having watch the AP Knight of everflame with Jason Bulmahn and Omelette one of the character use it and do 19 positive damage and Jason dont correct her when she tell that.

haven't seen that.

it feels weird to me.

i'll probably have to houserule that then.


shroudb wrote:
Dusty Crow wrote:
I would have think the same but having watch the AP Knight of everflame with Jason Bulmahn and Omelette one of the character use it and do 19 positive damage and Jason dont correct her when she tell that.

haven't seen that.

it feels weird to me.

i'll probably have to houserule that then.

Yeah i can see the barbarian hitting is friends to heal them with is battle axe, like 1d8 positive damage heal yourself lol.


shroudb wrote:
Dusty Crow wrote:
Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Now Rage for Positive Damage and throw Holy Handgranades for days.

Yeah Trevor belmont!!!

Just one question what about your persistent damage do you think it get persistent positive damage??

Ps:sorry english isn't my main language.

It is assumed (confirmed? Not sure) by a lot (most?) that actually it's a typo, and spirit barb converts the BONUS damage to poisitive/negative like the other rages, NOT the base.

Luckily it still ends up working perfectly for triggering the initial Weakness and as an added damage type.


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So, here's kind of an Unorthodox build.

Start with a Fighter, multiclass him to Demonic Sorcerer at level 2, and at level 4 pick up Basic Bloodline spell which will allow you to cast Glutton's Jaws, a fairly decent unarmed attack with a d8 damage die, the forceful quality, and the ability to nab you some good longevity in the form of temporary hit points.

But we're just getting started, because at level 9 you're going to want to get the human ancestry feat multitalented, which necessitates starting human or getting adopted ancestry. But no matter how you do it, you'll want to multiclass into Monk so that you can get Monk's Flurry at level 10. Flurry of Blows is a very nice feat for this build to have, since it synergizes really well with the forceful trait that your Glutton's Jaws attacks have. And of course, all of these attacks are coming off of the fantastic Fighter legendary proficiency.


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Flying Hammers:

Thrown weapons Paladin.
Pro's:
Actually has decent range!
You need (probably) less stride actions to get into position, meaning you attack more (hence why the agile Light Hammer as well)
Equally effective at range and at melee, although preffered range would be "close to melee" to protect his teammates as well
Good damage for a SnB ranged build
One of the best crit specializations, becoming kinda ridiculous at 16 with Zeal making them simultaneously slowed 1+prone

Con's:
Well, less damage than dual wielding, paladin/monks, and twohander paladins.
Loses the versatility of multiple Litanies

You can be of any Ancestry you like, you don't need a specific one, if you go with human, or adopted, a domain is always nice to have to have a bit flexibility in your focus usage. I'd persnally go either for skilled human, or for Half-elf with +speeds, the one that let's you pick up skills, and maybe a cantrip. Funnily enough, goblins have the "perfect" stats, and with your dex you may be able to even stealth in half-plate, although a stealthing paladin is too out of my vision.

The ideal starting stats are probably something like 14/18/-/-/-/14, get that Cha/str to 18 by level 10, and focus on Dex as primary. Heavy> Medium even with max dex. And in your case Half>full plate.

Level 1: Ranged Reprisal
Level 2: Ranger MC
Level 3: Weapon Ally (light hammer, give it returning)
Level 4: Quick Draw (from ranger)
Level 6: Smite
Level 8: Far shot (from ranger)
Level 10: Quick Block/Second Ally(shield) (one is better vs lots of small threats, other vs 1 big threat, Second ally has (imo) better capstone as well)
Level 12: Aura of Faith/Divine Wall (offense/defense, party dependent)
Level 14: Litany of Righteousness/Divine Reflexes (offense/offense+defense, party dependent)
Level 16: Zeal

The initial range of the hammer is 20ft, which is almost perfectly aligned with your 15ft "protected area" to capitalize on your Reaction

You don't *have* to "hunt" a target. You usually just use the option when you need to switch to fully ranged mode (at level 8+, you attack at 80 ft range without a penalty, pretty impressive for a thrown weapon)

Smite is pretty nice as a static +4/6 damage to practically most of your Strikes, and the free returning rune is basically a free +1d6 elemental property.
Litany of Righteousness is only worth it if you pick up Aura of Faith, and you should generally favor this option if your party has plenty of melees.
Else, go for Wall+Divine reflexes, making it extra hard to target your allies, and simultaneously hard to get to you.
Criticals with Zeal are just ridiculous, no save slow 1+prone is insane, plus, the extra damage die never hurts


shroudb wrote:

Flying Hammers:

Thrown weapons Paladin.
Pro's:
Actually has decent range!
You need (probably) less stride actions to get into position, meaning you attack more (hence why the agile Light Hammer as well)
Equally effective at range and at melee, although preffered range would be "close to melee" to protect his teammates as well
Good damage for a SnB ranged build

Con's:
Well, less damage than dual wielding, paladin/monks, and twohander paladins.
Loses the versatility of multiple Litanies

This build also works with the Trident as well, which can also be thrown 20 ft. and has a d8 damage die. Not to say that there aren't tradeoffs, of course. The light hammer is going to be more accurate if you throw it multiple times in a round, so the main question is if you want that or you want your reaction attacks to be stronger.


Ventnor wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Flying Hammers:

Thrown weapons Paladin.
Pro's:
Actually has decent range!
You need (probably) less stride actions to get into position, meaning you attack more (hence why the agile Light Hammer as well)
Equally effective at range and at melee, although preffered range would be "close to melee" to protect his teammates as well
Good damage for a SnB ranged build

Con's:
Well, less damage than dual wielding, paladin/monks, and twohander paladins.
Loses the versatility of multiple Litanies

This build also works with the Trident as well, which can also be thrown 20 ft. and has a d8 damage die. Not to say that there aren't tradeoffs, of course. The light hammer is going to be more accurate if you throw it multiple times in a round, so the main question is if you want that or you want your reaction attacks to be stronger.

i did consider it.

it's the usual trade off of d6 agile vs d8 non-agile.

what tipped the scales for me is that Hammer crit spec is insane, and it combines with Zeal extremely well in high levels.


shroudb wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Flying Hammers:

Thrown weapons Paladin.
Pro's:
Actually has decent range!
You need (probably) less stride actions to get into position, meaning you attack more (hence why the agile Light Hammer as well)
Equally effective at range and at melee, although preffered range would be "close to melee" to protect his teammates as well
Good damage for a SnB ranged build

Con's:
Well, less damage than dual wielding, paladin/monks, and twohander paladins.
Loses the versatility of multiple Litanies

This build also works with the Trident as well, which can also be thrown 20 ft. and has a d8 damage die. Not to say that there aren't tradeoffs, of course. The light hammer is going to be more accurate if you throw it multiple times in a round, so the main question is if you want that or you want your reaction attacks to be stronger.

i did consider it.

it's the usual trade off of d6 agile vs d8 non-agile.

what tipped the scales for me is that Hammer crit spec is insane, and it combines with Zeal extremely well in high levels.

Knocking a dude prone is definitely strong. However, making an enemy clumsy with a trident crit also increases the chances of your allies landing a critical hit of their own.

Not saying hammer isn't better, but there definitely are some upsides if you prefer ranged poking instead.


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So, maybe not the most outlandish build ever, but here’s kind of a fun idea: goblin barkeep alchemist, who takes the junk tinker ancestry feat at first level. Obviously, you create all of your alchemical items, whether bombs, elixirs, or anything else, using old beer bottles.


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Ventnor wrote:
So, maybe not the most outlandish build ever, but here’s kind of a fun idea: goblin barkeep alchemist, who takes the junk tinker ancestry feat at first level. Obviously, you create all of your alchemical items, whether bombs elixirs, or anything else, using old beer bottles.

And don't tell your fellow players! (Just the GM.)

"I throw a beer bottle at him." *hiccup* "Lousy orc."
(I'm assuming he's tipsy.)
Your Alchemist Fire could look like a Molotov cocktail.


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Castilliano wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
So, maybe not the most outlandish build ever, but here’s kind of a fun idea: goblin barkeep alchemist, who takes the junk tinker ancestry feat at first level. Obviously, you create all of your alchemical items, whether bombs elixirs, or anything else, using old beer bottles.

And don't tell your fellow players! (Just the GM.)

"I throw a beer bottle at him." *hiccup* "Lousy orc."
(I'm assuming he's tipsy.)
Your Alchemist Fire could look like a Molotov cocktail.

He;s a goblin.

I'm assuming EVERYTHING is a molotov

edit:

it also just dawned on me:

"You're wounded? Here, take this healing elixir"
"Oh, thanks!... wait... what are those bits in it? why do they look like our yesterday's leftovers?"
"Yeah! I don't know why you guys threw those out, but they were perfect! Come on, bottoms up now."


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shroudb wrote:
Castilliano wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
So, maybe not the most outlandish build ever, but here’s kind of a fun idea: goblin barkeep alchemist, who takes the junk tinker ancestry feat at first level. Obviously, you create all of your alchemical items, whether bombs elixirs, or anything else, using old beer bottles.

And don't tell your fellow players! (Just the GM.)

"I throw a beer bottle at him." *hiccup* "Lousy orc."
(I'm assuming he's tipsy.)
Your Alchemist Fire could look like a Molotov cocktail.

He;s a goblin.

I'm assuming EVERYTHING is a molotov

edit:

it also just dawned on me:

"You're wounded? Here, take this healing elixir"
"Oh, thanks!... wait... what are those bits in it? why do they look like our yesterday's leftovers?"
"Yeah! I don't know why you guys threw those out, but they were perfect! Come on, bottoms up now."

I agree, the Irongut goblin heritage does seem the best fit for this concept.


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Ritual Master! Human Wizard.

2: Pathfinder Agent dedication, boost your choice of Occultism/Religion/Nature to expert. Which ever you want for Master ritual qualifications. I suspect Religion gives you the most useful options that Arcana doesn't overlap, but Occultism does most of the best ones if you also want Legend Lore, and Nature has it's own thing.
9: Human feat for Rogue Dedication
10: Rogue MC Skill Master - boost your expert skill to Master, boost another magic skill to Expert. Expert in Religion/Nature does snag you some extra rituals, expert in Occultism doesn't do anything I think.
15: Universal Theorem - now you use your legendary Arcana for all magic related skill tests, and you have Master proficiency to qualify for some extra rituals.

So you can do legendary or less Arcana rituals, Master or less in another ritual, Expert in a third ritual form, and you roll a completely maxed out score for all of them.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nice one Xenocrat!


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So, here's another thought I had. Maybe the most important item for dual-wielding characters are doubling rings, right? The usual thought is you use them to replicate the fundamental runes from your main-hand weapon onto your off-hand weapon. But do you really?

What if the weapon you decide to focus on is your off-hand weapon? My thought is a dwarf who decides to go all-in on buffing her clan dagger. She has an agile parrying weapon in one hand, which means she has a relatively decent AC (even more so if she's a Fighter or Ranger who picks up the twin parry feat). She then changes her main-hand weapon depending on what she needs for her particular battle. She might pull out a whip if taking an enemy alive is what is called for, a warhammer if there are some ledges to shove people off of, or a trident if she needs a little extra distance.

All of these different weapons will be effective though, since our dwarven warrior is wearing the gold doubling ring on the hand that holds her clan dagger.


More of an NPC assassin build rather than a PC but:

A small sized race, be it either halfling or goblin, Alchemist 10 for Elastic mutagen, Skill increases in thievery/deception, stealth and Acrobatics, as well as Quick Squeeze skill feat. Rogue MC and trap finding alongside the skill increase at 8 to bump up your deception/thievery proficiency.

Quick squeeze and elastic mutagen means you can worm your way through openings as tiny as a small pipe opening (small enough for a rat to squeeze through) in a fairly hasty manner.

You have classic assassination tools in your arsenal in the form of both ingested poisons for food, or even contact poisons to cover bedroom pillows with.

You can assume a disguise in 2 seconds, that actually physically changes you, and even keep switching them on the fly through Infiltrator's elixirs.

And all those being "invisible" to detect magic and such.

Later on, you can be simultaneously immune to most kinds of mind probing, detection, and scrying or you can keep the disguise on forever, and etc


20th level Wizard with the Metamagic Mastery feat and maxed Stealth can consistently avoid reactions by casting every spell with Conceal spell at no action penalty, and the max stealth plus legendary sneak can help with some impressive elusive shenanigans. Alternatively, if you're a universalist you avoid the action penalty of Bond Conservation and can spew out extra spells without any meaningful restrictions or being stuck in one spot.

I'm increasingly impressed with how defensible all three 20th level Wizard feats are while the 18th level feats are pretty mediocre. All three capstones definitely drive you to a certain type of specialization, though.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The morphic trickster:
Human (Half-Elf) Bounty Hunter Rogue (Ruffian racket*)
Starting 12 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, 12 Cha
1st- Elf Atavism (Seer Elf), Nimble Dodge, Quick Identification
2nd- Wizard Dedication, Expert in Arcana, Magical Shorthand
3rd- Ancestral Paragon (Natural Ambition [Trap Finder]), Expert in Thievery, Wary Disarmament
4th- Basic Wizard Spellcasting, Expert in Crafting, Magical Crafting
5th- 14 Str, 18 Dex, 16 Int, 14 Cha; Supernatural Charm, Expert in Occultism, Recognize Spell
6th- Sorcerer Dedication (Fey bloodline), Expert in Nature, Natural Medicine
7th- Fleet, Master in Thievery, Quick Disarm
8th- Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting, Master in Crafting, Inventor
9th- Multitalented (Bard Dedication [likely Polymath muse, but no real difference]), Master in Arcana, Quick Recognition
10th- 19 Dex, 14 Con, 18 Int, 16 Cha; Basic Bard Spellcasting, Master in Nature, Oddity Identification
11th- Incredible Initiative, Master in Occultism, Bizarre Magic
12th- Expert Wizard Spellcasting, Expert in Society, Streetwise
13th- General Training (Incredible Investiture), Master in Society, Hobnobber
14th- Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting, Expert in Intimidation, Lasting Coercion
15th- 16 Str, 20 Dex, 19 Int, 18 Cha; Toughness, Legendary in Arcana, Unified Theory
16th- Expert Bard Spellcasting, Legendary in Thievery, Intimidating Prowess
17th- General Training (Expeditious Search), Legendary in Crafting, Craft Anything
18th- Master Wizard Spellcasting, Legendary in Society, Legendary Codebreaker
19th- Intimidating Glare, Master in Intimidation, Battle Cry
20th- 18 Str, 16 Con, 20 Int, 14 Wis; Trickster's Ace, Legendary in Intimidation, Scare to Death

Spell selection (as spell slots are gained and/or spells are added to the spellbook)
Spellbook (Arcane spells): cantrips- probably acid splash, ray of frost, +whatever; 1st- magic missile, pest form**, +whatever; 2nd- humanoid form**, invisibility, +whatever; 3rd- haste, +whatever; 4th- aerial form**, dimension door or gaseous form, +whatever; 5th- black tentacles, elemental form**, +whatever; 6th- dragon form**, mislead, +whatever; 7th- mask of terror, +whatever; 8th- monstrosity form**, +whatever
Sorcerer Repertoire (Primal spells): cantrip- disrupt undead; 1st- heal; 2nd- animal form**; 3rd- insect form**; 4th- dinosaur form**; 5th- plant form**; 6th- fire seeds
Bard Repertoire (Occult spells): cantrip- whatever; 1st- bane; 2nd- spiritual weapon; 3rd- heroism; 4th- modify memory or remove curse; 5th- synaptic pulse; 6th- spirit blast

*- personally, I'd prefer a "Pugilist" racket that allows sneak attacks with all unarmed strikes and increases proficiency with unarmed attacks to expert at 11th level (in place of the simple weapon and medium armor benefits)
**- all the forms

Grand Lodge

Wizards who MC into Druid or Cleric (or other prepared casters in the future) can use Drain Bonded Object to recast their prepared spell slots they gain from the basic/expert/master spellcasting feats from the archetype. Which favored Universalist wizards since they can drain 1/spell level/day rather than just 1/day.

Currently attempting to see if that makes for a decent mystic theurge.

Grand Lodge

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Dragonchess Player wrote:
** spoiler omitted **...

You can't take the sorcerer dedication at 6th because you need to have 2 additional wizard feats beyond the dedication feat (for 3 total)


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Skill Monkey Switch Hitter "Ranger" with spellcasting and traps.

Half-Orc Scout or Hunter Background
Rogue Thief Racket
STR10/DEX18/CON12/WIS16/INT10/CHA12
Twin Feint
Trap Finder (Natural Ambition)
Ranger Dedication
Hunted Shot
Quick Draw
Snare Specialist
Multitalented Druid
Basic Spellcasting
Precise Debilitations
Expert Spellcasting
Fell Shot, Spring From the Shadows or Breadth
Trickster Ace
Hidden Paragon

Skill Feats
Most of the Survival ones like Forager, Experienced Tracker and so on to be a true "Ranger", mix some stealth and nature as well.

With Rogue base you can get 6 legendary proficiency, so in this case Survival, Craft, Nature, Stealth, Thievery and Athletics/Acrobatics.

The build do fine on melee and ranged and can switch from one another easily and have lvl 6 primal spellcasting so it can do stuff like fly, field of life, beacon of hope and haste.


Syries wrote:

Wizards who MC into Druid or Cleric (or other prepared casters in the future) can use Drain Bonded Object to recast their prepared spell slots they gain from the basic/expert/master spellcasting feats from the archetype. Which favored Universalist wizards since they can drain 1/spell level/day rather than just 1/day.

Currently attempting to see if that makes for a decent mystic theurge.

I'm not sure this is true, as Drain Bonded Item action has both the Wizard and Arcane traits. For my part I'd interpret that as saying it only works with spells that are both Arcane and originate from your Wizard class features.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Unless the traits say something to that effect, I'd interpret that the other way, Xenocrat.

Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to do cool things like use Conceal Spell or Silent Spell as a non-wizard.

That just seems far too limiting for what the developers seemed to have in mind for 2nd Edition.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Syries wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
** spoiler omitted **...
You can't take the sorcerer dedication at 6th because you need to have 2 additional wizard feats beyond the dedication feat (for 3 total)

Rats. I forgot about that.

Oh, well. I'll have to sacrifice 4th-6th level bard spells, but not too many other changes are needed. Conceal Spell makes a nice "consolation prize!"

The morphic trickster (revised):
Human (Half-Elf) Bounty Hunter Rogue (Ruffian racket*)
Starting 12 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, 12 Cha
1st- Elf Atavism (Seer Elf), Nimble Dodge, Quick Identification
2nd- Wizard Dedication, Expert in Arcana, Magical Shorthand
3rd- Ancestral Paragon (Natural Ambition [Trap Finder]), Expert in Thievery, Wary Disarmament
4th- Basic Wizard Spellcasting, Expert in Crafting, Magical Crafting
5th- 14 Str, 18 Dex, 16 Int, 14 Cha; Supernatural Charm, Expert in Stealth, Recognize Spell
6th- Basic Arcana (Conceal Spell), Expert in Nature, Natural Medicine
7th- Fleet, Master in Thievery, Quick Disarm
8th- Sorcerer Dedication (Fey bloodline), Master in Crafting, Inventor
9th- Multitalented (Bard Dedication [likely Polymath muse, but no real difference]), Master in Arcana, Quick Recognition
10th- 19 Dex, 14 Con, 18 Int, 16 Cha; Basic Sorcerer Spellcasting, Master in Nature, Oddity Identification
11th- Incredible Initiative, Master in Stealth, Swift Sneak
12th- Expert Wizard Spellcasting, Expert in Society, Streetwise
13th- General Training (Incredible Investiture), Master in Society, Hobnobber
14th- Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting, Expert in Intimidation, Lasting Coercion
15th- 16 Str, 20 Dex, 19 Int, 18 Cha; Toughness, Legendary in Arcana, Unified Theory
16th- Basic Bard Spellcasting, Legendary in Thievery, Intimidating Prowess
17th- General Training (Expeditious Search), Legendary in Crafting, Craft Anything
18th- Master Wizard Spellcasting, Legendary in Society, Legendary Codebreaker
19th- Intimidating Glare, Master in Intimidation, Battle Cry
20th- 18 Str, 16 Con, 20 Int, 14 Wis; Trickster's Ace, Legendary in Intimidation, Scare to Death
Spell selection (as spell slots are gained and/or spells are added to the spellbook)
Spellbook (Arcane spells): cantrips- probably acid splash, ray of frost, +whatever; 1st- magic missile, pest form**, +whatever; 2nd- humanoid form**, invisibility, +whatever; 3rd- haste, +whatever; 4th- aerial form**, dimension door or gaseous form, +whatever; 5th- black tentacles, elemental form**, +whatever; 6th- dragon form**, mislead, +whatever; 7th- mask of terror, +whatever; 8th- monstrosity form**, +whatever
Sorcerer Repertoire (Primal spells): cantrip- disrupt undead; 1st- heal; 2nd- animal form**; 3rd- insect form**; 4th- dinosaur form**; 5th- plant form**; 6th- fire seeds
Bard Repertoire (Occult spells): cantrip- whatever; 1st- bane; 2nd- spiritual weapon; 3rd- heroism

*- personally, I'd prefer a "Pugilist" racket that allows sneak attacks with all unarmed strikes and increases proficiency with unarmed attacks to expert at 11th level (in place of the simple weapon and medium armor benefits)
**- all the forms

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