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I'm sure similar threads have existed in the past but I'm just interested to promote some conversation.
So which class do you think is better than it gets credit for on these boards and in pathfinder in general?
In my opinion its the spiritualist and I think I know why its reception was less than enthusiastic on the boards. So first I'll outline why I think that was.
First of all they were released in the controversial Occult adventures book. Which had a whole host of other problems. For one many were hoping for something like the psionics of 3.5 which they didn't get so that damaged all casters to a certain extent. I've also seen it expressed that by many on these boards that Occult classes are brokenly powerful or brokenly weak depending on who you ask. My opinion being that they were slightly under-tuned on release but to no great extent. Many also felt that the flavour of of occult adventures didn't fit their idea of DnD fantasy. So already its facing challenges. The on top of that you have to pile on its one of the less different classes in the book. The psychic is a new 9th level caster, which is always going to peak interest. The Kineticist offers a whole other type of class to the rest of the game. The medium brought all its own controversy and the Occultist brought a whole new way to learn spells.
Next to all that it was easy to dismiss the spiritualist as just another pet class. And then it encounters a whole host of problems all its own, outside the book it came with.
-Of all the major pet classes, it comes with the weakest pet in terms of combat ability.
-It occupies the position of a level 6th caster with three quarters BAB, generally considered Pathfinder's sweet spot and as such afforded a whole host of competition.
-No bonus feats
-No obvious boosts to spell casting
The sum total of its parts at first glance is a class that isn't going to have a great pet, isn't going to be great in melee and isn't going to be one of the best casters offensively or defensively.
Its not obviously good at anything.
So that is why I think it ended up with the reception it did.
After looking into it a little further I think its actually a really fun class.
First of all its a wisdom based caster, so it gets all the skill and save based benefits that come with that. Along with class features like shared consciousness and later empowerment's of the ability I feel confident saying the spiritualist is one of, if not the best ways to circumvent mind effecting events.
On top of which your bonded senses and ethereal form grants you an incredibly powerful scout, even in the earliest levels. Easily better than other pet classes.
In terms of casting the spell list is weird and thematic, but in the end it feels to me like a cleric and a magus hybrid, it gets some fun offensive abilities, a lot of utility and some medical casting. To name a few highlights spells on one of my two spiritualists lists. Expeditious Retreat, protection from evil, invisibility, see invisibility, spiritual weapon, heroism, haste, fly, dispel magic, dimension door, freedom of movement, plane shift, breath of life and heal.
A spiritualist isn't going to be a great blaster, they aren't going to be a great healer, but they're jam packed with utility, buffs and useful offensive casting I don't think anyone would turn their nose up at.
And then we get to bonded manifestation, which allows you to have access to the skill focuses of your phantom (so whilst you're no skill monkey, you're probably the best at what you chose to be). You can choose between providing shield AC bonuses to a class that's best weapon is two handed and eventually getting free attacks on a swift action and extra limbs. With ectoplasmic form. Or becoming a defensive utility machine with flight, concealment, ghost touch and yet more bonuses to will saves.
On top of this you get the fun thematic features for detecting undead and seeing the invisible and calming emotions. That in my opinion allow you to play with necromancy in a rather new way. You can be indifferent, in favour or opposed but however way you chose, you're fighting the dead with the dead. Its kind of a blade vibe in that sense.
Then last and probably best of all, you get the aura's. Thanks to spiritual interference and its greater cousin your phantom becomes a constant beacon of buffs to your allies. Then add on the aura your phantom gets from level 7 and this thing is just becomes a beacon of passive buffs.
In conclusion, whilst the spiritualist doesn't have too much in the way of customisation besides its spell list and its emotion of choice. And as such doesn't support super duper zainy builds, it is what I would call lean, and lean for a reason. What you can build isn't going to be super weird, and it isn't going to be the most powerful build you ever imagined. But what you will get will work and it will work well, they can pull there weight in combat, provide utility out of combat and be a spooky scoobydoo light house beacon of buffs for your allies.
Also whilst maintaining a cohesive theme. I think they're great and if they'd had an independent release as a divine or arcane caster, similar to the magus or the shifter (in terms of independant release). I think its reception would be much stronger.
tl/dr: I think spiritualists are great and don't get enough credit. Which class do you think deserves more love?
The built in team work feats with an animal companion are for me the reason one would play a hunter.
I think the class does what a lot of people tried to do with rangers for a long time, but didn't have much success.
They don't tickle my fancy. But equally I'm not sure I'd call them under-rated. I've never seen anyone say they're bad to be honest :P
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The fighter. Not a lot of flash, but still very solid.
oooo It didn't occur to me that fighter would come up
but I suppose that shows its a good candidate :P
it certainly got better with... was that new book armour masters or something? the one that made them fun :P
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oooo It didn't occur to me that fighter would come up
but I suppose that shows its a good candidate :P
it certainly got better with... was that new book armour masters or something? the one that made them fun :P
weapon masters handbook and armor masters handbook both made fighter serious contenders, even without combat stamina from unchained.
Yes those books I can't seem to remember the name of.
If I remember correctly a little while back there was a rather contentious thread about how great they were with stamina. Marshmallow was in the thread name, for anyone who wants to try and search it up.
oooo It didn't occur to me that fighter would come up
but I suppose that shows its a good candidate :P
it certainly got better with... was that new book armour masters or something? the one that made them fun :P
Well it's underrated at my table. On the forums, perhaps less so, but it still lacks flashiness, and usually it's best just plain up (or with one of few archetypes). I've played fighter a few times at my table, I think, but I don't remember others doing so. They tend to find it looks boring and repetitive.
Scrubs. :P
Fighter is a high tier 4 at worst with the options it got in Weapon Master/Armor Master. With the right choices (and I mean like, reasonable choices that come from class features the Fighter gets, not blowing all of your WBL on scrolls) it's comparable with the "Good Martial" tier of Barbarian/Paladin/Slayer/Etc. in terms of power and versatility. It suffers mostly from being a worst-in-the-game candidate for so long that people who don't keep up with every splatbook aren't going to know what's possible with a Fighter.
This is kind of an odd choice because it isn't something that people think of as a "bad class", but I would like to submit the Barbarian for consideration. That the Barbarian does buckets of damage and is difficult to take down through HP damage or saves is well documented, but I find that people tend to underrate the class's utility options by a large degree. Spell Sunder is a famous one, but there are a lot of other great choices such as Strength Surge, Savage Dirty Trick, Elemental Blood and Terrifying Howl that widen what's possible with your Barbarian beyond "AM FULL ATTACK".
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Similarly to the above, I believe defensive barbarians are an underrated build. Specifically, the invulnerable rager archetype with the stalwart feat, stacking up the DR/- to negate the need for AC.
Having played one to great effect, I find they're a refreshing type of character that employs a variety of tactical choices to dominate the battlefield. Pairing the reckless abandon rage power with the combat expertise feat feeding through stalwart to trade AC for DR, they can bring a hefty amount of damage dice whilst still soaking up generous levels of punishment without significantly denting their hit point pool, extending their staying power long after many other classes would be looking for a fast exit.
Pairing this with spell sunder at later levels is almost cheating.
I find most classes that get looked down on are more useful than most people online give them credit for, simply because the assumptions that are being brought to the table about them, the game play, and the optimization levels vary wildly. It can get even worse when you bring certain prestige classes into the mix (Mystic Theurge, for one).
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I think Skald is a fairly underrated class- their raging song isn't as good as bardic performance but they also don't really have the sustainability of a bloodrager or barbarian. When compared to either a bard or a barbarian they can really feel like they fall short.
But they do something that no class can, and that is to share rage powers. Smart use of the Flexible Fury spell does wonders for it too. I'm not aware of any other class that can so easily allow ALL allies to bypass whatever DR their enemy has in a single turn. Or if the party is caught by surprise and don't have their weapons on them; no big deal, Lesser Beast Totem means everyone has a couple of claws! Or even just a bit of extra damage through lesser spirit totem.
Not to mention their potential to aid allies with abilities like Skald's Vigor and use of the Bard's spell list (Moment of Greatness, Saving Finale, and Gallant Inspiration are low level spells that are invaluable as a support role)
I think Skald is a fairly underrated class- their raging song isn't as good as bardic performance but they also don't really have the sustainability of a bloodrager or barbarian. When compared to either a bard or a barbarian they can really feel like they fall short.
But they do something that no class can, and that is to share rage powers. Smart use of the Flexible Fury spell does wonders for it too. I'm not aware of any other class that can so easily allow ALL allies to bypass whatever DR their enemy has in a single turn. Or if the party is caught by surprise and don't have their weapons on them; no big deal, Lesser Beast Totem means everyone has a couple of claws! Or even just a bit of extra damage through lesser spirit totem.
Not to mention their potential to aid allies with abilities like Skald's Vigor and use of the Bard's spell list (Moment of Greatness, Saving Finale, and Gallant Inspiration are low level spells that are invaluable as a support role)
Skald + summoner + Tor linnorm death curse power is pretty terrifying tbh (i think its tor, its the perma staggered curse)
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The problem with the skald is that it doesn't work with half the DPR builds in the game. I hate it so much. Anything that uses dexterity as its primary attribute doesn't want a skald in the party, anything that wants to cast and attack in the same turn doesn't want a skald in the party, anything that already has rage doesn't want a skald in the party (I ESPECIALLY hate this last one).
The Skald is great in the tiny number of party compositions it isn't useless in.
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The fighter. Not a lot of flash, but still very solid.
Agreed. They are just, plain hard to kill. Having a butt-ton of DR is nice, but it doesn't beat just tossing away a bent shield or gauntlet and making that humongous smackdown you ate go poof.
Well-built rogues can become virtually unhittable at a relatively low level, especially if they're halflings not adverse to a dip out here and there. This frees up defensive finances to just saving-throws.
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For me one of the big ones that stands out is the Vigilante. I see a lot of "batman doesn't belong in D&D" and not enough appreciation of a full bab martial with good skill points and lots of nice secondary options which is generally really fun to mess around with.
I also think Cavaliers are kind of neat and it's definitely one of the most underrated classes in the game. Less that people hate it though and more that I legitimately seem to run into people who forget it exists entirely pretty often. The class has some baggage, a lot of weird archetypes that I wish were better and legitimately probably doesn't need to exist at all, but as is it does a really nice job letting you play a knightly character that isn't a paladin.
so that damaged all casters to a certain extent.
I'm not sure I'm following how occult classes existing 'damaged' all casters.
Personally I really like the Spiritualist in part because it's only the second major pet using class that isn't just another spin on the druid (like the ranger, hunter, cavalier and all the various pet-granting options in the game) and the Summoner has way too much baggage and hate surrounding it to really be usable in most games.
Not having another animal companion alone makes the Spiritualist awesome in my book. Though I will agree there's a lot of small mechanics to the class and not a lot of obvious flash to it. The class can do a lot of fun things and solidly performs a variety of tasks in a party, but it doesn't cleanly fit into one niche and there's no one option that just obviously stands out as amazing in the same way you could point to a magus' spell combat/spell strike or a wizard's spell list.
Still awesome though.
I think Skald is a fairly underrated class- their raging song isn't as good as bardic performance
Not sure I agree. Raging Song is stupidly good in the right party. The problem is 'the right party'. In order to really leverage their core mechanic the skald wants multiple strength based melee allies who aren't also skalds, barbarians or bloodragers. Those are some really specific requirements, much moreso than any other class in the game.
The other big complaint I see is that they're too similar mechanically to the bard. Less a balance issue, but I can see why it might turn some people off.
I'm not sure I'm following how occult classes existing 'damaged' all casters.
I'm not sure if you're being obtuse or not but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
As I was talking about the Occult Adventures book and the Occult adventures classes the point I was making was that when psychic casting didn't mirror psionic casting as many wanted it to, this hurt the reception of all the classes that used psychic casting.
I.E all the casters in the book that I was talking about when I made the statement.
Glad you like spiritualists though.
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Skald + summoner + Tor linnorm death curse power is pretty terrifying tbh (i think its tor, its the perma staggered curse)I think Skald is a fairly underrated class- their raging song isn't as good as bardic performance but they also don't really have the sustainability of a bloodrager or barbarian. When compared to either a bard or a barbarian they can really feel like they fall short.
But they do something that no class can, and that is to share rage powers. Smart use of the Flexible Fury spell does wonders for it too. I'm not aware of any other class that can so easily allow ALL allies to bypass whatever DR their enemy has in a single turn. Or if the party is caught by surprise and don't have their weapons on them; no big deal, Lesser Beast Totem means everyone has a couple of claws! Or even just a bit of extra damage through lesser spirit totem.
Not to mention their potential to aid allies with abilities like Skald's Vigor and use of the Bard's spell list (Moment of Greatness, Saving Finale, and Gallant Inspiration are low level spells that are invaluable as a support role)
I’m pretty sure a skald and Conjuration based wizard would be able to handle encounters like a 6 player party if built right.
But as Arachnofiend pointed out, yeah they don’t mesh well with a lot of other martial types out there. Most magi, archers, warpriests, bloodragers and barbarians have little use for a skald. It’s really unfortunate. And if you’re in a party with a magus, a warpriest, and a wizard, a skald would be a pretty bad pick especially compared to a bard. (unless said wizard was summon-focused as I mentioned)
Skald is just a weird design spot because of the way it interacts with other players which is a bit unusual.
I don't like em personally but I've made 30 characters and only 4 of them are strength based characters that don't have casting abilities they wouldn't want to lose.
weapon masters handbook and armor masters handbook both made fighter serious contenders, even without combat stamina from unchained.
To be precise, the combination of AWT from WMH, Magic Tactics Toolbox's Warrior Spirit, and Inner Sea Intrigue's Training enchantment is what plants Fighters firmly in tier 4.
What Fighter is sadly still missing is pounce.
Skald is just a weird design spot because of the way it interacts with other players which is a bit unusual.
I don't like em personally but I've made 30 characters and only 4 of them are strength based characters that don't have casting abilities they wouldn't want to lose.
Wyrm Singer helps - it's melee only and doesn't stack with a lot of things (including Good Hope), but at least it supports dex based options (and charisma based options - I have created a pretty cool Wyrm Singer that uses Desna's Shooting Star for Skald with serious SADness). I did create a custom bow that grants the Zen Archer a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls when effected by the song, though.
Skald's best part is also underrated itself: People rarely talk about Spell Kenning, even though that ability makes Skald the second best 6/9 caster (after Summoner, obviously).My personal nomination: Unchained Monk. It can go toe-to-toe at damage dealing with even a well build Barbarian (abuse-y builds notwithstanding), it has a lot of out-of-combat potential (what other class can fly, be invisible, and walk through walls at 4th level?), and is overall rather well rounded while allowing plenty of customization. And yet, people lump it together with cMonk, or even argue that the nerfed will save progression and lack of compatibility with no-longer-needed archetypes makes the class overall worse than cMonk.
Id argue the silksworn occultist is still better than the skald at casting. Though that is a corner case.
The unchained monk is probably my favourite martial, I don't really get why people don't like it more, good nomination.
To answer your question, a spiritualist with its phantom can do all those things by level 4, aside from flight. Which it gets at level 7 as a spell and as an ability at 9.
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What Fighter is sadly still missing is pounce.
Now, any character can get dimensional dervish a few times per day if you invest in four feats to get it...
(what other class can fly, be invisible, and walk through walls at 4th level?)
Wait, when was this added? I remember being wholly unimpressed with the ki power list, with most things being either too weak or too expensive to bother investing in.
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What Fighter is sadly still missing is pounce.Now, any character can get dimensional dervish a few times per day if you invest in four feats to get it...
Additionally using abundant tactics with barroom brawler to grab the advanced weapon training feat (leave a spot open) to grab the advanced weapon training "item training" to grab the "teleportation mastery" item mastery feat will let you pounce even more!
(what other class can fly, be invisible, and walk through walls at 4th level?)Wait, when was this added? I remember being wholly unimpressed with the ki power list, with most things being either too weak or too expensive to bother investing in.
Empty Body costs 3 Ki Points and grants the Monk Etherealness for 1 minute, it can be taken as your level 4 Ki Power and was in Unchained as one of the original unKi Powers.
Id argue the silksworn occultist is still better than the skald at casting. Though that is a corner case.
To answer your question, a spiritualist with its phantom can do all those things by level 4, aside from flight. Which it gets at level 7 as a spell and as an ability at 9.
The phantom has to stay near the Spiritualist, though, an unMonk can fly through the castle into the king's chamber and steal the royal sigil, then fly back (although that might take until 6th level to have enough ki).
I'm not convinced that Silksworn is that good due to the fairly limited spell list, but in any case, I meant the whole character. Spell Kenning is such a huge boost in versatility, it's crazy. Skald has access to ~82% of all spells of <7th level in the game! Although I admit I do have first hand experience with the Skald, but not the Silksworn. I've seen the above mentioned Skald (build by me, played be someone I GM for) remove a crippling spider venom, and completely turn the fight against an invisible Hellcat with Glitterdust.
The unchained monk is probably my favourite martial, I don't really get why people don't like it more
I guess it's because many people tend to focus on the negative. They see the nerfed will save, that the ki bonus attack no longer works with weapons (and likewise for style strikes), while ignoring that unMonk can affort more wisdom (less need for high str and con), does more damage with a weapon (even without Ascetic Style), gains a lot from the ki powers, and has a huge in real damage thanks to Flying Kick.
Plus, there's also the "both options aren't perfect, so I'll treat them as equally bad" mindset - see a certain presidential election on how widespread that is.
What Fighter is sadly still missing is pounce.Now, any character can get dimensional dervish a few times per day if you invest in four feats to get it...
Somehow, I never noticed the special section of Flickering Step, that means you can have it online at 12th level. Shame it's only thrice per day...
Empty Body costs 3 Ki Points and grants the Monk Etherealness for 1 minute, it can be taken as your level 4 Ki Power and was in Unchained as one of the original unKi Powers.(what other class can fly, be invisible, and walk through walls at 4th level?)Wait, when was this added? I remember being wholly unimpressed with the ki power list, with most things being either too weak or too expensive to bother investing in.
Oh, I see. I remember reading this power but I remember it being much weaker than it actually is, so that's my bad. Unfortunately it still fits under the label of prohibitively expensive - assuming a reasonable 16 wisdom, at 4th level this eats up over half of your ki points in a single use. It doesn't do anything in combat, either.
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I think samurai are pretty underrated.
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I think samurai are pretty underrated.
Agreed. Good out of the gate, they really accelerate at 9th, and again at 15th. Having free Resolve rerolls rain out of the sky with a +4 bonus from Order of the Warrior is amazeballs. Strike True is a boss-slayer. The ability to eliminate fatigue makes multiclassing barbarian painless.
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Id argue the silksworn occultist is still better than the skald at casting. Though that is a corner case.
To answer your question, a spiritualist with its phantom can do all those things by level 4, aside from flight. Which it gets at level 7 as a spell and as an ability at 9.
The phantom has to stay near the Spiritualist, though, an unMonk can fly through the castle into the king's chamber and steal the royal sigil, then fly back (although that might take until 6th level to have enough ki).
I'm not convinced that Silksworn is that good due to the fairly limited spell list, but in any case, I meant the whole character. Spell Kenning is such a huge boost in versatility, it's crazy. Skald has access to ~82% of all spells of <7th level in the game! Although I admit I do have first hand experience with the Skald, but not the Silksworn. I've seen the above mentioned Skald (build by me, played be someone I GM for) remove a crippling spider venom, and completely turn the fight against an invisible Hellcat with Glitterdust.
The Silksworn does have a limited spell list true, but it actually ends up with more spells known than 9th level spontaneous casters (that aren't humans).
So it will certainly end up with a pretty nice tool box, on top of which it has much more spell mileage than other 6th level casters and more easily reaches higher DCs.
They also get some very powerful focus powers that in some cases just do things spells do but better.
I think at the very least the occultist would be the most potent caster, by some way, whilst the skald can have a bigger tool box the silksworn still has a big one, and its tools are going to be more powerful and it is going to get to use them more each day.
I guess to some degree it depends what you're looking for.
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I've been planning a Silksworn for War for the Crown, and the spells known/spells per day are amazing, with tons of clutch staples - the only issue I have had is finding a good go-to sledgehammer school of spells for when I'm not buffing (or summoning shadow beasts).
The necromancy list looks very good for higher levels though, so I'll probably end up drifting that direction.
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I'll give a shout-out to spiritualists. At any one thing they're pretty mediocre, but the spell list is brilliant. I've been having fun with mine in The Harrowing!
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I think for this thread, I'm inclined to mention the Medium. While I appreciate a lot of the skepticism is in the uncertainty of where they can channel spirits, I don't think the Martial and especially the Trickster spirits get nearly the recognition they deserve.
I never got to where I wanted to go with the Silksworn but I was leaning towards necromancy as my late game power school.
The final plan being persistent perfect spell suffocation if I’d got to it.
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Underrated?? I used to think the skald was until I played one. With raging song, vesitile performance, knowledge abilities, DR, skalds vigor, 6 levels of casting, and spell kenning I had one of the most versatile PCs that I have ever played able to handle most any situation.
So you used to think the skald was underrated and then played one and it was good so now you don’t think it is?
I am fully lost.
Yes, I used to think the skald was not a very good class. Me likey very much now.
Most people who haven't played one under estimate its ability to contribute.
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Similarly to the above, I believe defensive barbarians are an underrated build. Specifically, the invulnerable rager archetype with the stalwart feat, stacking up the DR/- to negate the need for AC.
Having played one to great effect, I find they're a refreshing type of character that employs a variety of tactical choices to dominate the battlefield. Pairing the reckless abandon rage power with the combat expertise feat feeding through stalwart to trade AC for DR, they can bring a hefty amount of damage dice whilst still soaking up generous levels of punishment without significantly denting their hit point pool, extending their staying power long after many other classes would be looking for a fast exit.
Pairing this with spell sunder at later levels is almost cheating.
Oh I meant to ask, what route did you take for this?
This is one of those builds I always wanted to do but could never quite make to satisfaction.
I think the generic Fighter is underrated because people tend to make a "Weapon User". When I make a Fighter, I typically pick feats like Improved Initiative and Improved Critical, feats that make the character better overall rather than limiting them to using one specific weapon type. So far building Fighters with that concept in mind has worked remarkably well.
Yes, I used to think the skald was not a very good class. Me likey very much now.
Most people who haven't played one under estimate its ability to contribute.
So you do think it’s underrated then?
Good call!
I'm sure similar threads have existed in the past but I'm just interested to promote some conversation.
So which class do you think is better than it gets credit for on these boards and in pathfinder in general?
In my opinion its the spiritualist and I think I know why its reception was less than enthusiastic on the boards. So first I'll outline why I think that was.
{. . .}
The sum total of its parts at first glance is a class that isn't going to have a great pet, isn't going to be great in melee and isn't going to be one of the best casters offensively or defensively {. . .}
{. . .}
In conclusion, whilst the spiritualist doesn't have too much in the way of customisation besides its spell list and its emotion of choice. And as such doesn't support super duper zainy builds, it is what I would call lean, and lean for a reason. What you can build isn't going to be super weird {. . .}
That's what Phantom Blade Spiritualist is for.
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The problem with the skald is that it doesn't work with half the DPR builds in the game. I hate it so much. Anything that uses dexterity as its primary attribute doesn't want a skald in the party, anything that wants to cast and attack in the same turn doesn't want a skald in the party, anything that already has rage doesn't want a skald in the party (I ESPECIALLY hate this last one).
The Skald is great in the tiny number of party compositions it isn't useless in.
Spell Warrior archetype fixes a lot of the problems.
I'd agree that the vigilante isn't given its due. Vigilante talents are some of the best in the game and rolling Avenger means you are a fighter with class features.
^Unfortunately, Spell Warrior trades out Spell Kenning. That really hurts.
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The problem with the skald is that it doesn't work with half the DPR builds in the game. I hate it so much. Anything that uses dexterity as its primary attribute doesn't want a skald in the party, anything that wants to cast and attack in the same turn doesn't want a skald in the party, anything that already has rage doesn't want a skald in the party (I ESPECIALLY hate this last one).
The Skald is great in the tiny number of party compositions it isn't useless in.
Spell Warrior archetype fixes a lot of the problems.
I'd agree that the vigilante isn't given its due. Vigilante talents are some of the best in the game and rolling Avenger means you are a fighter with class features.
Controversial opinion: I'd put vigilante at a tie with alchemist for one of the coolest/best designed classes in the game