Your most underrated class?

[Cavall]

Which is pretty common with a skald around, granted.

It's one of the few classes where seeing what others are playing and letting them know your intentions can really affect character creation.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

I'm sure similar threads have existed in the past but I'm just interested to promote some conversation.

So which class do you think is better than it gets credit for on these boards and in pathfinder in general?

In my opinion its the spiritualist and I think I know why its reception was less than enthusiastic on the boards. So first I'll outline why I think that was.
{. . .}
The sum total of its parts at first glance is a class that isn't going to have a great pet, isn't going to be great in melee and isn't going to be one of the best casters offensively or defensively {. . .}
{. . .}
In conclusion, whilst the spiritualist doesn't have too much in the way of customisation besides its spell list and its emotion of choice. And as such doesn't support super duper zainy builds, it is what I would call lean, and lean for a reason. What you can build isn't going to be super weird {. . .}

That's what Phantom Blade Spiritualist is for.

I do love that archetype and recently brought the third party mythic path transcendentalist pdf to convert all the Occult classes I made to mythic.

But I'm confused about which problem you think that the Phantom blade fixed that I mentioned?

Also for the record, not many characters benefit as much from mythic as the Phantom blade.

[UnArcaneElection]

^Phantom Blade Spiritualist is good in melee (especially if the magic weapons you want are scarce), and it's weird.

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Phantom Blade Spiritualist is good in melee (especially if the magic weapons you want are scarce), and it's weird.

I actually found it quite tricky to make one work to a level I was happy with (as in harder than using a normal spiritualist). Its the kind of class that really wants a bard with it.

For example, I made one normal spiritualist with an Anger Phantom who used a scythe and was a curnogen(spelling?) smash hurtful build.

Partnered him with his phantom using an outflank build. Spiritual interference and his Anger Aura combined with outflank and heroism and such like. And good damage came from the two handed combo'd with power attack and strength. You got pretty nice accuracy and damage and you could boost AC in various ways.

Compared to the Phantom blade

Even going for greater weapon focus and weapon specialisation the phantom blade doesn't really have any accuracy boosters and the combat casting hurts their accuracy further.

They could compensate by using things like keen and such but its all a bit tricky when I did it.

They get heroism of course, which is nice but its all a bit tricky.

Oh and concentration checks and combat casting with a psychic caster is an absolute nightmare before you get swift action etheric focus.

Honestly, thats a big problem if you ask me, because of provoking and such.

They are amazing fun guys, but they really would have benefited from a couple things to support their accuracy.

[UnArcaneElection]

On the other hand, if you are in a dump where almost nobody else has a magic weapon, you come out ahead.

Unfortunately, the Spiritualist spell list is a bit short on buffs, notably missing things like Bull's Strength.

[JDLPF]

The Dandy Lion wrote:

Oh I meant to ask, what route did you take for this?

This is one of those builds I always wanted to do but could never quite make to satisfaction.

I did one for Pathfinder Society, and it rocked out quite hard in damn near every scenario I played.

The basics of the build are below the spoiler, due to length.

Invulnerable Rager:

Race: Half-Orc
Alternate Racial Traits: Mystic, Dusksight
Class: Barbarian
Archetype: Invulnerable Rager
Stats (20 Point Buy)
Str: 15 +2 Racial
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 8
Favored Class: Barbarian
Favored Class Bonus: +1/3 to the bonus from the superstition rage power each level
Traits: Hermean Paragon, Fate's Favored
Feats: Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice), Diehard (1st)

So a few notes regarding alternate racial features and traits. Mystic gets you a free feat towards the prerequisites for Stalwart and a +1 luck bonus to all saves. This is by far the best package for you. Due to the +1 luck bonus, you want the Fate's Favored trait to double this as well. The final trait is simply a way to get +2 initiative without spending your combat trait, which you'll want later. You'll never regret having a higher bonus to initiative. The final alternate racial trait is Dusksight, which trades your racial weapon proficiencies away for low-light vision, a good trade considering you're already proficient with martial weapons and the exotics aren't really worth worrying over. With low-light vision, you can see 80 ft. distance by torchlight in darkness, better than your own 60 ft. Darkvision.

2nd
Rage Power: Superstition

3rd
Feats: Combat Expertise

4th
Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
+1 Strength

5th
Feat: Stalwart

6th
Rage Power: Witch Hunter

7th
Feat: Power Attack

8th
Rage Power: Spell Sunder
+1 Intelligence

9th
Feat: Additional Traits (Pragmatic Activator, Underlying Principles)

10th
Rage Power: Eater of Magic

11th
Feat: Improved Stalwart

12th
Rage Power: Strength Surge
+1 Strength

Here's an example of what the build looks like at 12th level.

The cornerstone of this build is rage cycling through use of Allnight. In combination with Superstition, Witch Hunter and Spell Sunder, it lets our combatant Sunder through most defensive spells and maintain extremely high saving throws, with a free action reroll on failed saving throws using Eater of Magic.

Pre-fight buffs are consuming Allnight and a potion of Fly, then using Haste from boots and entering a rage as a free action. Beyond that, strategy revolves around closing to melee with the enemy as quickly as possible in order to bring the pain before they have time to cast too many spells, cycling a rage as a free action whenever possible.

Offensively the focus is on melee damage to put the enemy down, and the greatsword attack sequence isn't counting Reckless Abandon or Haste to improve the attack bonus. Against extremely high AC enemies, the strategy would be to target any spells boosting defences by using the opening bonus Haste attack to perform a Strength Surge Spell Sunder (usually +37 with Haste and Reckless Abandon vs. DC 25 + CL to dispel, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability) against an ongoing effect on the target, dispelling things like Mirror Image, Barkskin or Shield of Faith. Note this provokes an attack of opportunity from the enemy, as the build does not include the Improved Sunder feat. Assuming free actions to cycle rage can occur between iterative attacks, this can possibly strip the opponent of multiple spells per round of full attacks, though many GMs limit free action rage cycling to once per round.

Defenses include strong saving throws against magic including rerolls (once per rage using Eater of Magic, once per day with +4 Luck using Lucky Horseshoe) on failed saves, generous amounts of hit points, and the option to use Combat Expertise with Improved Stalwart to increase the DR from 6/- to 14/- at the expense of -4 to hit. If Strength Surge is unused during the current rage, it can be used defensively to add +12 to CMD vs. a single combat maneuver instead. All favored class bonuses have been put towards increasing the saving throw bonus of Superstition via human heritage. There's just enough ranks in Use Magic Device to activate wands on anything but a natural 1, and skills already include the skill penalty of Allnight and ACP. Scrolls are a riskier proposition, but available if required, mainly to counter invisible or stealthed opponents.

Half-Orc barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 12 (Advanced Player's Guide)
N Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +10; Senses low-light vision, darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +16
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 17 (+9 armor, +3 Dex, -2 rage)
hp 161 (12d12+72)
Fort +22, Ref +14, Will +17; +9 vs. spells and spell-like and supernatural abilities, +4 and one size larger to resist effects of wind
Defensive Abilities invulnerability, extreme endurance (hot); DR 6/-; Resist fire 3

--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (good)
Melee +1 furious greatsword +20/+15/+10 (2d6+27/19-20)
These numbers assume rage and power attack are active. It does not include attack bonuses from haste or reckless abandon, or damage bonuses from witch hunter.

Special Attacks greater rage (29 rounds/day), rage powers (reckless abandon +4, superstition +9, witch hunter +4, spell sunder, strength surge +12, eater of magic)

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 27, Dex 16, Con 22, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +12; CMB +20; CMD 31 (41 vs. disarm)
Feats endurance, diehard, combat expertise, stalwart, power attack, additional traits, improved stalwart
Traits fate's favored, hermean paragon (steaming sea), underlying principles, pragmatic activator
Skills Acrobatics +16, Fly +18, Intimidate +12, Perception +16, Spellcraft +12, Use Magic Device +18
Languages Common, Orc, Abyssal
SQ fast movement, orc blood, sacred tattoo [ARG], shaman's apprentice[ARG], dusksight[BoS]

Consumables potion of enlarge person, potion of feather step, potion of protection from evil, potion of remove fear, potion of remove sickness, potion of touch of the sea, potion of countless eyes, potion of displacement, potion of fly x3, potion of haste, potion of heroism, potion of gaseous form, potion of good hope, potion of protection from energy: fire, potion of remove blindness/deafness, scroll of glitterdust x5, scroll of mirror image x5, scroll of see invisibility x5, scroll of invisibility purge x2, scroll of wind wall x2, wand of divine favor, wand of lead blades, wand of faerie fire, wand of long arm, wand of obscuring mist, wand of shield

Weapons and armor +1 furious greatsword, +3 mithral breastplate

Other gear belt of physical perfection +2, headband of inspired wisdom +4, boots of speed, cloak of resistance +4, cracked magenta prism ioun stone (UMD), cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack), cracked pale green prism ioun stone (saves), cracked dusty rose prism ioun stone, goz mask[ISWG], lesser talisman of freedom[OA], lesser talisman of danger sense[OA], lesser talisman of warrior's courage[OA], lucky horseshoe[OA], pathfinder's kit, locked gauntlet, weapon cord, spring-loaded wrist sheath, allnight

[roguerouge]

Squiggit wrote:

For me one of the big ones that stands out is the Vigilante. I see a lot of "batman doesn't belong in D&D" and not enough appreciation of a full bab martial with good skill points and lots of nice secondary options which is generally really fun to mess around with.

I had thought that the Magical Child archetype of the Vigilante would be a terrible choice at my table for Hell's Rebels, especially since it has a bad spell list where several spells on the Unchained Summoner list can't even be used by her. But it's held up very well for our Sailor Moon--dex to melee damage, pit spells, great skills, and the improved familiar makes for a very flexible character. And she's not even gotten to the 9th level ability to switch between several familiars.

[GeneticDrift]

Kineticist is my favorite class. So I think people underrate it and think it is more complicated that it really is.

[JiCi]

Occultist, because you are essentially a Magus with better armor options, as psychic spells aren't affected by armor.

Vigilante, because you have many talents to substitute feats with, and the number of archetypes give you a LOT of variety.

Kineticist, because it's the closest thing to DnD's warlock and its at-will blast is a better and safer alternative to damage spells.

Elementalist Shifter, because the energy damage can be quite useful... and TWFing it could make it cool.

[John34404]

The most underrated class i have seen is Monk. All Monks even Unchained seem to be underrated. I find that with Ascetic Style (unarmed damage on all monk SQ weapons) +Ki steal is more than most GM's I've ran into can handle.

On a side note, though it allows it in the rules never allow the Monk weapon quality to any Bows... a Unchained monk with a potential of 5 -2 BAB/-12/-7 (before haste) at lv.11 gets broken.

[Legowarrior]

roguerouge wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

For me one of the big ones that stands out is the Vigilante. I see a lot of "batman doesn't belong in D&D" and not enough appreciation of a full bab martial with good skill points and lots of nice secondary options which is generally really fun to mess around with.

I had thought that the Magical Child archetype of the Vigilante would be a terrible choice at my table for Hell's Rebels, especially since it has a bad spell list where several spells on the Unchained Summoner list can't even be used by her. But it's held up very well for our Sailor Moon--dex to melee damage, pit spells, great skills, and the improved familiar makes for a very flexible character. And she's not even gotten to the 9th level ability to switch between several familiars.

Have you thought about grabbing Changling Familiar at 9th level? It allows you familiar to shift into a small or mediun creature. If you have an outsider familiar, it means access to all Martial weapons and it would be easier to intimate enemies as a medium size creature.