That's basically the situation you're in every time you fight a lich, unless there's a Find Phylactery spell I don't know about.Players: We look for Baba Yaga's death!
GM: Where?
Players: Do we have any clues?
GM: Nope, good luck.
Indeed, although there might be magical means that might work against a lich, that might not work against figures as mighty as Baba Yaga.
Legend Lore might have a chance to tell you where to find the lich's phylactery.
I doubt something like legend lore would work on Baba Yaga's shade.
But you're right that things like plotanium armor are available even to lesser beings.
Didn't we just have this subject a couple months ago?
I made a thread about this very subject https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2v8kz?Whats-the-hardest-official-monster we never came to a consensus regarding what official monster is hardest. If you count third party creatures than Lucifer is by far the hardest at CR 39 (this was before the mythic stuff, so they probably just assumed Pathfinder would have epic eventually like regular 3.x
But you're right that things like plotanium armor are available even to lesser beings.
On the other hand, it's probably sensible that the PCs can't just become powerful and hunt down the most powerful beings in their vicinity for fun, because presumably those beings are liable to participate in some plots that the PCs are supposed to engage in more thoroughly than "skip to the end and kill who's in charge."
But you're right that things like plotanium armor are available even to lesser beings.On the other hand, it's probably sensible that the PCs can't just become powerful and hunt down the most powerful beings in their vicinity for fun, because presumably those beings are liable to participate in some plots that the PCs are supposed to engage in more thoroughly than "skip to the end and kill who's in charge."
Oh absolutely. It's why I don't ever want to see deities with stats.
If you give it stats you're saying there is a chance it can be defeated and killed.
I actually prefer (as a GM) entities that are just beyond the PCs ability to harm directly, but perhaps the PCs can disrupt their plans. Is that being vengeful and likely to come after the PCs? Perhaps. Usually when we get to that sort of point the campaign is coming to a close anyways.
I am surprised no one mentioned the Terrasque.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Baba Yaga purposefully keeps herself "weak" enough to avoid becoming a divinity because of all the constraints such status entails.
This just screams MOST POWERFUL to me ;-D
Which sounds like not really being weak, but running silent, running deep.
Baba Yaga purposefully keeps herself "weak" enough to avoid becoming a divinity because of all the constraints such status entails.
This just screams MOST POWERFUL to me ;-D
Which sounds like not really being weak, but running silent, running deep.
What they said, that's kinda like the cosmic equivalent of "Out of sight, out of mind", "Be afraid of the quiet ones, they are the ones who actually think", and "The most dangerous person is the one who listens, thinks, and observes"
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, probably the most dangerous non-deity in the universe is the 20 Wizard/10 Archmage from somebody's Wrath of the Righteous game, but Baba Yaga is perhaps the closest canonical statted entity to that person.
|
I mean, probably the most dangerous non-deity in the universe is the 20 Wizard/10 Archmage from somebody's Wrath of the Righteous game, but Baba Yaga is perhaps the closest canonical statted entity to that person.
With a custom-made race based on the ARG point system to boot.
You are right. Nothing surpasses PCs in matters of horrible might
I am surprised no one mentioned the Tarrasque.
The old 3rd-edition tarrasque has fallen well behind the power curve from back when he was a top-drawer monster.
Recent attempts were made to punch him up to kaiju class. (Short version: I made him Rovagug's herald.)
I mean, probably the most dangerous non-deity in the universe is the 20 Wizard/10 Archmage from somebody's Wrath of the Righteous game, but Baba Yaga is perhaps the closest canonical statted entity to that person.With a custom-made race based on the ARG point system to boot.
You are right. Nothing surpasses PCs in matters of horrible might
Except that they don't get to have the super fun, plot point only frills that come with being really awesome. If anything is strong enough to hit the level 20/Tier 10 PC, they will easily surpass the "has to be killed with epic/artifact" rule.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
As with everything, a PC can be as ridiculously powerful as his GM can be bullied into allowing. After all you can argue that regeneration = immortality, and if you can bully your GM you can be that or anything else.
So, in a meta way, the most powerful just means you are run by the most obstinate person at the table.
Does this advance the OP objective of exploring what it means for a monster to be the most powerful? Probably not, even if it does touch on "plot armor", which is probably the most relevant thing. Having the writers on your side is always the character's greatest asset, and has been before anyone ever thought to draw numbers on an odd shaped polyhedron.
|
As with everything, a PC can be as ridiculously powerful as his GM can be bullied into allowing.
You don't need any bullying, all it takes is basic grasp of math and some patience to come up with builds that will leave Mister Carven helpless and your fellow players overshadowed with nothing to stop you except for heavy-handed "this doesn't work in my game" or "no, I don't care what the book says".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
^_^
Elminster is still dead, reports to the contrary are propaganda.
It is nice though that none of Pathfinder characters or creatures really have a plot armor. I mean in D&D lot of "iconic" npcs or monsters have some sort of "Its basically impossible to kill them in anyway possible even if you try to prepare for it"
I have the opposite reaction. I'd actually prefer for some things to be unkillable, even by the strongest most prepared PCs.
|
Just saying but Baba Yaga and the Tarrasque are both pretty much plot armored in their statblocks at least in regard to not-dying.
Tarrasque and Baba Yaga's things aren't plot armor though.
Plot armor is something like "Demogorgon can never die even if you take his place as demon lord" or "Elminster can never die because he has infinite amount of clones in his cupboard". Tarrasque is straight up "it regenerates and nobody knows how to stop it" and Baba Yaga is "you can kill her if you find her death and return it which is impossibly hard, but still possible"
We are in a somewhat grey area. Demagorgan pushes into God camp acting as his own defeatable avatar. It has been argued at "developer" level that Demagorgon in its full glory isn't statable, and ever really manifestable. Baba Yaga is much the same, but with the call-out that if you want to you can give out her kryptonite, where her untraceable soul has to go to reform. The Tarrasque may well be on the spectrum. Elminster is more of a "stubbornness" issue, he will always have an unwritten contingency, in addition to the myriad written contingencies. There are real similarities and differences in all of them, and it is good gamer philosophy to think about.
The point isn't to trivialize and dismiss "plot armor," but to explore it, strengthening your plots as it were.
|
|
The way I see it, plot armor is when writer wants to have their cake and eat it: They don't make a monster that is impossible to defeat, they make monster that is possible to kill but impossible to permanently kill. Tarrasque doesn't count since you don't really ever kill it while demogorgon gets "killed" and respawns at his spawn point. Elminster doesn't ever die because he has unwritten contingency, but if Baba Yaga's death is returned to her she does actually die.
Great Old Ones is only case of Pathfinder creatures that even if they die, they come back and it works because they are cosmic horror(though I find it questionable since it seems like even gods couldn't kill them)
Actually great old ones are thought to be incomplete intrusions into reality by forces that may well be in and of themselves larger than reality if you go by Lovecraft's letters. Some of his editors disagree and reimagine the Mythos into a more standard Judeo-Christian mold which is more commonly gamer friendly.
I rather quibble with your description of plot armor as a writer having his cake and eating it too. It is rude and dismissive, when you take into account the non-wargame rloleplay aspects of the game, which it seems that you dismiss as well. Since this all about opinion you can't be wrong, but none of us is right, either.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not really sure how my opinion is rude and dismissive?(also on sidenote, I want to have my cake and eat it lot of time :P I like strawberry cake very much, it feels sad when its eaten since I can't have more xP)
Anyway, that comes across as awfully judgmental ._. Like, plot armor is thing I dislike about D&D NPCs and I think Paizo does actually agree on that since Paizo has never done NPCs that are "Super high leveled good guys who would solve the problem and are basically immortal, but they are gonna stand on sidelines because they are too high leveled to bother doing stuff"
Like, if we just explore what plot armor is, its "Plot says this character can't die". While it can make for good story to have unkillable monsters and such, it more often comes across as "You can't kill Demogorgon because we want to use him in multiple campaigns" rather than it being story about unkillable horror. It also the issue I have with Vecna, "Die Vecna, Die!" clearly didn't end with Vecna dead. That is what I mean with "Have a cake and eat it", D&D likes using iconic villains, but they don't ever want to have them permanently defeated, so they give them plot armor so they can keep using them and it kinda starts feeling like player victories didn't matter really that much in grand scheme.
Which is why I very much like how when Paizo uses villains, when they are defeated, they are actually defeated.
I mean, high tier mythic characters have plot armor anyway due to that "you come back within 24 hours unless you died with a CDG or Crit from a mythic creature" thing.
It's just not as strong of plot armor as "that, plus another condition."
To be more precise, and less sweepingly grand, plot armor means the character cannot be killed now, before his part of the story is told.
To be fair this must be terribly annoying if you don't give a fig about plot.
Azathoth is a deity, it should never have stats, the old 'it has stats, we can kill it' thing.
The 1st party Hastur is fun enough, and third party high CR monsters are often ridiculous for the sake of being ridiculous. On top of having the above problem.
If you're including third party, you might as well include the 'rocks fall, everybody dies' encounter.
I feel like giving stats for Azathoth is a bad idea just because the very nature of that thing means you cannot inconvenience it in any way, and it cannot perceive you or interact with you on purpose.
Definitely Baba Yaga, but if we limit ourselves to only monsters I vote Nocticula.
Blackbutterfly gets points more for being hard to kill but not so threatening where as Nocticula is very easily the most party decimating on that list to my mind.
Eh the Mythic Hastur incarnation is not that impressive to a Mythic Pc party. I made a build based around walking around in no armour using fans and the inspired muse prestige class that could easily clock upwards of 350hit point damage in one turn.
And she was terrible at damage by Mythic standards xD lol
The real question for me is why is cernunnos so much weaker than every other CR30 creature xD
-Snickers-
Well, Azathoth and Hastur themselves don't have stats there. What they do have are Elder Influences, which are basically half creature and half environmental effect. You don't kill them - or even seriously hurt them - by destroying the influence. You just survive them and maybe get them to go away. And most are just flat-out immune to almost all effects that don't directly inflict hit point damage, so no cheap spell combos to auto-win.
And that's what makes them so unimpressive. To me anyway.
Eh the Mythic Hastur incarnation is not that impressive to a Mythic Pc party. I made a build based around walking around in no armour using fans and the inspired muse prestige class that could easily clock upwards of 350hit point damage in one turn.
And she was terrible at damage by Mythic standards xD lolThe real question for me is why is cernunnos so much weaker than every other CR30 creature xD
Character level 20/mythic tier 10 is definitely the top of the curve with broken abilities and such. It's the epitome of rocket tag, except you can also ignore a lot of creature's immunities to rocket tag.
But, yes of statted creatures, Baba Yaga if only because every spell list is technically on her spell list, plus archmage, plus extras.
Nocticula because she might actually have a chance at seducing Baba Yaga.
|
|
To be more precise, and less sweepingly grand, plot armor means the character cannot be killed now, before his part of the story is told.
To be fair this must be terribly annoying if you don't give a fig about plot.
See, you ARE being judgmental. I mean, passive aggressive remark that implies I don't care about plot IS just plain dismissive and rude.
So, little dragon, you can perceive it in others, now, can you perceive it in yourself?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, little dragon, you can perceive it in others, now, can you perceive it in yourself?
Umm, and now you are making snide remarks based on avatar <_<
I haven't at any point made personal insults at you or anyone else. You keep trying to insult me and you keep trying to escalate this into an argument.
Like, its one thing if you disagree with me opinion on writing of Forgotten Realms, but please do not try to make it personal. If you make remarks about the person you are debating with, you risk chance of having them retaliate(its first instinct majority of people have, someone made personal remarks about you so you make remarks about their remarks on you) and it to escalate from debate into an argument.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Can we nominate memes? Because AM BARBARIAN can probably 1 round anything we could otherwise nominate.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am personally confident that AM BARBARIAN is what happened to Aroden...