I'm pretty sure that you see a spell's name, thinks it's very useful/powerful, but gets completely disappointed when you read the description...
For me, these are Magic Jar and Possession. These allow you to take control of any creature, but there's a huge problem: "You can’t activate the body’s extraordinary or supernatural abilities, nor can you cast any of its spells or spell-like abilities."
So I can possess a dragon, but cannot use its breath weapon...
So I can possess a gray render, but cannot use its rend ability...
So I can possess a pixie, but cannot use its spell-like abilities...
Yeah... kinda of a bummer... and no, Greater Possession doesn't allow it either...
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Those are still good and fun spells. Don't underestimate them.
Now, surmount affliction was disappointing. Self-only, verbal and somatic components, standard action to cast mean that it can't suppress 3.75 of the conditions it claims to be able to deal with (dazed, frightened, paralyzed and confused). The people who can cast it (divine spellcasters) don't generally get access to contingency so that's not the answer either. Maybe for clerics with the animal domain, casting it on their animal companion? It certainly seems a smaller niche than advertised.
Skinsend for all its icky cool value is hard to use effectively amd very easy to use to kill yourself
Daylight is explicitly not the equivalent of daylight. Still occasionally useful but disappointing.
Those are still good and fun spells. Don't underestimate them.
A few major problems:
- I cannot make a threatning body jumper-esque creature, such as a fiend or a ghost, that can literally usurp a creature's arsenal against the PCs. That "weak and innocent" imp wouldn't be treated lightly if it could possess creatures and use every ability in wild abandon. In Starfinder, I'm pretty sure that you can hack a robot (manually or magically), control it and use every single weapon and ability it possesses.- Several items that rely on Magic Jar or Possession are just... worthless. The Diadem of Control, which allows you to remotely control constructs, uses Possession as its base spell effect, which bars you from using an Iron Golem's toxic breath weapon.
At its core, it feels like these spells were made so any major antagonist can pass as your uninteresting commoner, so nobody would suspect it. It would be more fun if it allows the full range of options that the possessed creature can use. I cannot possess a hill giant to catch rock, so good luck selling me the idea that you only need to use it for the extra muscles...
A player in my group was excited about the Cleanse spell, until I pointed out it is for personal use only.
True Strike. Don't get me wrong, True Strike is awesome, but I was building a support wizard and then finally saw only targets self. Bummer.
In a similar vein, Levitate. I actually once used it to level the playing field on a particularly brutal TPK fight in Shards if Sin. The following few days, I read it only works on a willing target, meaning it has no offensive use really.
Ice Crystal Teleport has a use, which is that you can target someone 400 ft + 40ft/level away from you. Normally to teleport you have to be touching someone.
Oh, oh! Defending Bone!
I had a combo lined up using a Goblin Skull Bomb as the focus. Thus amplifying the spell's utility by making the bludgeoning attack against me cause the attacker to burst into flame.
Upon cliser reading though, the spell calls for the skull or femur of a medium creature... So you have to kill something medium with the Skull Bomb first before it can be the focus. And then there's the chance your opponent uses a sling or firearm, which the bone would defend against and subsequently burst you into flame.
All in all, fun combo ruined. Not that having downsides is a bad thing, but the whoke kill a medium first was a shot in the foot.
I mean, you can also use it offensively.
If they fail the will save, you can unwillingly teleport someone.
Eh maybe not. The spell does specifically reference teleport, which doesn't allow for it, despite generally have a will save (and in teleport only objects get saves.
In any event, it's one spell level above teleport...Yeah it's not great, but be able to teleport someone not next to you is useful.
True Strike. Don't get me wrong, True Strike is awesome, but I was building a support wizard and then finally saw only targets self. Bummer.
It's a good preparation buff for the ranged character in the party if you can hand it off via alchemist/investigator extract.
A player in my group was excited about the Cleanse spell, until I pointed out it is for personal use only.Cleric 5 self healing spell that isn't on the Paladin list as a 4th level spell? Why?
The spell cures more than just HP damage. That would be a useful spell to cast on others.
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True Strike. Don't get me wrong, True Strike is awesome, but I was building a support wizard and then finally saw only targets self. Bummer.It's a good preparation buff for the ranged character in the party if you can hand it off via alchemist/investigator extract.
Not a vaild Investigator/alchemist spell, it's got a focus component. (The argument being it's so that alchemists can activate wands of it, apparently...)
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A player in my group was excited about the Cleanse spell, until I pointed out it is for personal use only.
I'd argue that cleanse doesn't meet the thread title. It sounds amazing, but on a second reading is just a powerful spell.
It rolls up a whole bunch of things into one spell, has the ability to automatically remove some things which normally require CL checks (poisons, disease), and is only a standard action for things that can otherwise take a while to remove (ability damage). It's a very good spell for a prepared caster to have on hand instead of preparing a whole bunch of situational spells. Especially for one that is more solo-oriented or offensive and not a "dedicated support" character.
If it could affect other characters... wow.
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Those are still good and fun spells. Don't underestimate them.A few major problems:
- I cannot make a threatning body jumper-esque creature, such as a fiend or a ghost, that can literally usurp a creature's arsenal against the PCs. That "weak and innocent" imp wouldn't be treated lightly if it could possess creatures and use every ability in wild abandon.
...abbreviated...It would be more fun if it allows the full range of options that the possessed creature can use. I cannot possess a hill giant to catch rock, so good luck selling me the idea that you only need to use it for the extra muscles...
Good Afternoon!
You actually can make such an antagonist...I have used that very method to make an extremely overpowered Ghost Medium. (A hilarious build where a spirit possesses the body of someone else, then calls a spirit of an ancient hero to possess itself just to add to the confusion)
Requires you be a Teifling or have undergone the demon ritual to become a half fiend...But look into the feat Demonic Possession -> Improved Possession.
http://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Demonic%20Possession
http://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Improved%20Possession
I have always had a temptation to mention this on the Fighter Vs. Wizard threads to see how they react to the fact that even a commoner can beat them...
(Note, you can actually pull this off with any commoner. Have him take Spirit Ridden for the Knowledge checks then undergo the Ritual described in the Book of the Damned...That's how I made a commoner who could beat Wizards anyway.)
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I'm actually going to name one of the most popular spells in Pathfinder. Stoneskin.
10 DR. Umm...great? That makes you immune to...well...non threats. The average NPC mob can't beat you down. Anything that is CR appropriate for your party will overcome that DR with every strike. But hey, 10 points is 10 points right?
Except it runs out. You've just given yourself +10 temp HP per level that can be bypassed. And you got to pay 250 gp for that privilege! I'm not sure what is worse. Paying for temp hp, or getting killed while you still have stoneskin in effect. Also against higher level opponents...they bypass stoneskin. Couldn't it at least be something that can't be bypassed if I have to pay for it?
The detriments on the spell take it from being top tier in the 3.5 era to what I feel is the lower end of spectrum. Not a bad spell, just not what I considering worth casting.
Interesting take.
That spell has saved our bacon against claw/claw/bite and high-level iteratives so many times it isn't even funny. DR/adamantine is rarely bypassed by monsters or even most NPCs, and I certainly don't know a better way to get an effective 10 temporary hit points per caster level. We don't use it all the time, but we do use it fairly often on our monk.
Also I was under the opinion that if a creature had DR/type they could overcome that type but I appear to be mistaken? I can't find any such rule in Pathfinder.
I believe that only applies to DR/magic and DR/epic.
I don't think stoneskin is THAT bad considering few creatures have adamantine weapons or other abilities to penetrate dr/adamantine. That said I would increase the dr to 15/adamantine or so.
I'm actually going to name one of the most popular spells in Pathfinder. Stoneskin.
10 DR. Umm...great? That makes you immune to...well...non threats. The average NPC mob can't beat you down. Anything that is CR appropriate for your party will overcome that DR with every strike. But hey, 10 points is 10 points right?
Except it runs out. You've just given yourself +10 temp HP per level that can be bypassed. And you got to pay 250 gp for that privilege! I'm not sure what is worse. Paying for temp hp, or getting killed while you still have stoneskin in effect. Also against higher level opponents...they bypass stoneskin. Couldn't it at least be something that can't be bypassed if I have to pay for it?
The detriments on the spell take it from being top tier in the 3.5 era to what I feel is the lower end of spectrum. Not a bad spell, just not what I considering worth casting.
Interesting take.
That spell has saved our bacon against claw/claw/bite and high-level iteratives so many times it isn't even funny. DR/adamantine is rarely bypassed by monsters or even most NPCs, and I certainly don't know a better way to get an effective 10 temporary hit points per caster level. We don't use it all the time, but we do use it fairly often on our monk.
The last time I played a caster it was in Iron Gods so... Also I was under the opinion that if a creature had DR/type they could overcome that type but I appear to be mistaken? I can't find any such rule in Pathfinder.
Regardless most high CR creatures do over 20 damage per swing, and/or do energy damage.
If you compare the performance of Stone Skin with other popular defensive spells it pales in comparison. The most cast defensive spell is Mirror Image. Mirror Image just performs too well. If you don't have a way to bypass it the huge miss chance is a lot better than 10 DR. Now eventually almost everything has True Sight, but that can be blocked with Mind Blank.
Even the inferior...
Sounds fair; Iron Gods sounds like it might have a higher than normal percentage of adamantine weapons or other means of bypassing DR/adamantine.
Stoneskin has a number of perks versus mirror image, not least of which is that mirror image is a personal range spell so getting it onto someone else is something of a pain. It also has a higher percentage chance of doing its job--it only fails when the opponent can bypass DR/adamantine or the damage cap is met.
On the other hand, mirror image and blur are low-level and remains relevant throughout the character's career. They're probably a better bet if you're playing the "if someone is in melee range, you've already screwed up" type of character, if your hit points are so low that any hit is going to be bad news, or if you're up against attacks carrying nasty non-hit point damage effects.
If you have the opportunity, don't choose--use both! : )
More on topic, I'd go with fireball. Who doesn't love it? Well, me. While it has a few situations where it really shines (e.g., a mob of wights about to drain your face), most of the time it just doesn't pack enough punch or is tactically unwise.
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True Strike. Don't get me wrong, True Strike is awesome, but I was building a support wizard and then finally saw only targets self. Bummer.
There ... exists a way. But are you willing to spend two feats on it and the recipient willing to spend one feat?
1) Bonded Mind - You both take this feat.
2) Share Spells - You take this spell.
3) ??????
4) Profit
You have NO IDEA what havoc this can reach when you give the *insert full BAB class* access to some personal only spells from your spell list.
True Strike isn't really a big deal for a class that gets full BAB and multiple attacks. Well, unless you can drop a true strike on their itterative attacks. Then that attack at -10 has a good chance of hitting.
True Strike isn't really the best spell to use with this combination of feats but, sure.
Drop that True Strike on big damage but low BAB classes like Rogue or Kinetisist, or Wizard. Oh wait...
Now you are beginning to see. Keep stretching out those feelers... Think what is possible with Beast Shape, Fey Form, Form of the Dragon ... all on top of those lower BAB classes with high damage output. And then you drop Divine Power on top of them.
Ice Crystal Teleport has a use, which is that you can target someone 400 ft + 40ft/level away from you. Normally to teleport you have to be touching someone.Which is not worth even being the same spell level as Teleport, let alone a higher level, when everything else is VASTLY weaker in Ice Crystal Teleport.
What makes it not that bad is that it offers flexibility:
* Defensive: You can drop it over an ally who was dropped-neg a long distance away, protecting them as a sort of poor-man's Emergency Force Sphere + concealment + bug-out kit. And there's no 3% destination failure chance: they will go to the temple of your choice for immediate healing.
* Offensive: it's a save-or-suck paralyze and teleport (without error) of an enemy to a place you are familiar with. (And note that an environmentally "safe" destination doesn't mean that it's proscribed from containing a hostile reception committee. For example, it won't physically hurt a demon for it to suddenly arrive in Heaven and melt-out in front of a barracks full of angels in need of spirited sparring partners.
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True Strike is best used with maneuvers like Disarm or Trip rather than just damage. It goes well with UMD and a wand (375gp is really cheap).
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Also I was under the opinion that if a creature had DR/type they could overcome that type but I appear to be mistaken? I can't find any such rule in Pathfinder.I believe that only applies to DR/magic and DR/epic.
If a creature has an alignment subtype - such as outsider (demon, evil) - then their natural weapons count as that alignment for overcoming DR.
If a creature has an alignment subtype - such as outsider (demon, evil) - then their natural weapons count as that alignment for overcoming DR.Also I was under the opinion that if a creature had DR/type they could overcome that type but I appear to be mistaken? I can't find any such rule in Pathfinder.I believe that only applies to DR/magic and DR/epic.
Yes, but that's not because of their DR, which is what Meirril was talking about.
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Yes, but that's not because of their DR, which is what Meirril was talking about.If a creature has an alignment subtype - such as outsider (demon, evil) - then their natural weapons count as that alignment for overcoming DR.Also I was under the opinion that if a creature had DR/type they could overcome that type but I appear to be mistaken? I can't find any such rule in Pathfinder.I believe that only applies to DR/magic and DR/epic.
People often misremember the rule as Meirril did. I know I have in the past.
Not a vaild Investigator/alchemist spell, it's got a focus component. (The argument being it's so that alchemists can activate wands of it, apparently...)True Strike. Don't get me wrong, True Strike is awesome, but I was building a support wizard and then finally saw only targets self. Bummer.It's a good preparation buff for the ranged character in the party if you can hand it off via alchemist/investigator extract.
I'm pretty sure it is unless they somehow errata'd that at some point. I know it wasn't supposed to work that way given how many spells but the only time I've ever scene that mentioned the developers were conceding that they should have been more consistent. Also, true strike negates invisibility, blur, and many other shenanigans which is why stoneskin is better than those spells.
Ice Crystal Teleport has a use, which is that you can target someone 400 ft + 40ft/level away from you. Normally to teleport you have to be touching someone.Which is not worth even being the same spell level as Teleport, let alone a higher level, when everything else is VASTLY weaker in Ice Crystal Teleport.What makes it not that bad is that it offers flexibility:
* Defensive: You can drop it over an ally who was dropped-neg a long distance away, protecting them as a sort of poor-man's Emergency Force Sphere + concealment + bug-out kit. And there's no 3% destination failure chance: they will go to the temple of your choice for immediate healing.
* Offensive: it's a save-or-suck paralyze and teleport (without error) of an enemy to a place you are familiar with. (And note that an environmentally "safe" destination doesn't mean that it's proscribed from containing a hostile reception committee. For example, it won't physically hurt a demon for it to suddenly arrive in Heaven and melt-out in front of a barracks full of angels in need of spirited sparring partners.
Can’t teleport them to another Plane, but the point still stands. If they aren’t a caster, it’s as simple as teleporting them behind bars or to the bottom of a very deep hole. If they are a caster, you probably shouldn’t be casting a spell that grants a Will save anyway.
Spell Turning, since it doesn't block area or ranged touch (which rules out most attack spells) and the number of spell levels in can absorb is ruled in secret (which raises the question, if an NPC casts the spell, how does the DM avoid knowing how many spell levels are left? Have a player who seems trustworthy roll it?)
Those are still good and fun spells. Don't underestimate them.A few major problems:
- I cannot make a threatning body jumper-esque creature, such as a fiend or a ghost, that can literally usurp a creature's arsenal against the PCs. That "weak and innocent" imp wouldn't be treated lightly if it could possess creatures and use every ability in wild abandon.
...abbreviated...It would be more fun if it allows the full range of options that the possessed creature can use. I cannot possess a hill giant to catch rock, so good luck selling me the idea that you only need to use it for the extra muscles...
Good Afternoon!
You actually can make such an antagonist...I have used that very method to make an extremely overpowered Ghost Medium. (A hilarious build where a spirit possesses the body of someone else, then calls a spirit of an ancient hero to possess itself just to add to the confusion)
Requires you be a Teifling or have undergone the demon ritual to become a half fiend...But look into the feat Demonic Possession -> Improved Possession.
http://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Demonic%20Possession
http://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Improved%20Possession
I have always had a temptation to mention this on the Fighter Vs. Wizard threads to see how they react to the fact that even a commoner can beat them...
(Note, you can actually pull this off with any commoner. Have him take Spirit Ridden for the Knowledge checks then undergo the Ritual described in the Book of the Damned...That's how I made a commoner who could beat Wizards anyway.)
Woah, ok, there is hope then :)
Can’t teleport them to another Plane, but the point still stands. If they aren’t a caster, it’s as simple as teleporting them behind bars or to the bottom of a very deep hole. If they are a caster, you probably shouldn’t be casting a spell that grants a Will save anyway.[More Ice Crystal Teleport discussion]What makes it not that bad is that it offers flexibility:
* Defensive: You can drop it over an ally who was dropped-neg a long distance away, protecting them as a sort of poor-man's Emergency Force Sphere + concealment + bug-out kit. And there's no 3% destination failure chance: they will go to the temple of your choice for immediate healing.
* Offensive: it's a save-or-suck paralyze and teleport (without error) of an enemy to a place you are familiar with. (And note that an environmentally "safe" destination doesn't mean that it's proscribed from containing a hostile reception committee. For example, it won't physically hurt a demon for it to suddenly arrive in Heaven and melt-out in front of a barracks full of angels in need of spirited sparring partners.
Ice Crystal Teleport specifies: "You can only send the target to a location with which you are very familiar."
Teleport then specifies: “Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home.
So, unless you live on the bottom of a hole or feel at home in prison, no teleporting people into confinement. You can pretty much only bring people back to your home with that.
And on the defensive side - the ice has 3hp per caster level. And it takes 1d4 rounds before it teleports. That won't protect anyone unless the enemy is already ignoring them, in which case there are better methods.
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Requires you be a Teifling or have undergone the demon ritual to become a half fiend
Demonic/Improved Posession requires "Demon or half-demon".
As far as I know, tieflings don't count as either. Maybe there is a way to make them count as such, but not by default.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Spell Turning, since it doesn't block area or ranged touch (which rules out most attack spells) and the number of spell levels in can absorb is ruled in secret (which raises the question, if an NPC casts the spell, how does the DM avoid knowing how many spell levels are left? Have a player who seems trustworthy roll it?)
It's a GM's job to compartmentalize information so that each NPC acts according to the information available from the NPC's perspective rather than the GM's omniscient perspective. If the GM cannot be trusted to do that, there are bigger issues than adjudicating spell turning.
Ice Crystal Teleport has a use, which is that you can target someone 400 ft + 40ft/level away from you. Normally to teleport you have to be touching someone.
And with Teleport you also have to go with them, I believe. Ice Crystal Teleport is good for those Wizards who want to get involved as little as possible.
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Can’t teleport them to another Plane, but the point still stands. If they aren’t a caster, it’s as simple as teleporting them behind bars or to the bottom of a very deep hole. If they are a caster, you probably shouldn’t be casting a spell that grants a Will save anyway.[More Ice Crystal Teleport discussion]What makes it not that bad is that it offers flexibility:
* Defensive: You can drop it over an ally who was dropped-neg a long distance away, protecting them as a sort of poor-man's Emergency Force Sphere + concealment + bug-out kit. And there's no 3% destination failure chance: they will go to the temple of your choice for immediate healing.
* Offensive: it's a save-or-suck paralyze and teleport (without error) of an enemy to a place you are familiar with. (And note that an environmentally "safe" destination doesn't mean that it's proscribed from containing a hostile reception committee. For example, it won't physically hurt a demon for it to suddenly arrive in Heaven and melt-out in front of a barracks full of angels in need of spirited sparring partners.
Ice Crystal Teleport specifies: "You can only send the target to a location with which you are very familiar."
Teleport then specifies: “Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home.
So, unless you live on the bottom of a hole or feel at home in prison, no teleporting people into confinement. You can pretty much only bring people back to your home with that.And on the defensive side - the ice has 3hp per caster level. And it takes 1d4 rounds before it teleports. That won't protect anyone unless the enemy is already ignoring them, in which case there are better methods.
If I made the prison myself, or dug the pit with my magic, I imagine the process of doing so would familiarize me with my own construction, and I doubt I'd feel uncomfortable visiting there.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Or work. Or church. Or Big Louie's Bar & Gladiator Pit. As a 12th-level Arcanist, it's easy to be "very familiar" with a lot of places, indeed some you'd become acquainted with solely for the purposes of the spell.Teleport then specifies: “Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home.
So, unless you live on the bottom of a hole or feel at home in prison, no teleporting people into confinement. You can pretty much only bring people back to your home with that.
And on the defensive side - the ice has 3hp per caster level. And it takes 1d4 rounds before it teleports. That won't protect anyone unless the enemy is already ignoring them, in which case there are better methods.
It's enough to flummox a brainless monster: their "food" disappears, buried under a foot of odorless, flavorless ice that is probably translucent at best and possibly opaque. And as the spell's target is now welded to the landscape, they can't be immediately dragged off, flown-off, swallowed, etc.
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Marionette possession is pretty great if your brain reliably and inexplicably ignores the word “willing” every time it appears.
Oh, but every unconscious creature is "willing". Just add healing afterwards, and your former 'prisoner' is now your temporary meat puppet.
Marionette possession is pretty great if your brain reliably and inexplicably ignores the word “willing” every time it appears.Oh, but every unconscious creature is "willing". Just add healing afterwards, and your former 'prisoner' is now your temporary meat puppet.
Not to mention, you can knock them out again whenever the duration's close to up. So, they aren't necessarily a temporary meat puppet.
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,’:/
I’m no genius, but it seems to me that as teleport offers no save (except for attended objects) and only works on willing targets, where as ice crystal teleport is noted differently, allowing a will save, the intent of the spell is that it can be cast offensively.
Arguing otherwise is like arguing that mass suggestion can’t be used on more than one target, because it works as suggestion, which only effects one target.
That and, “blatant lie”? You may believe me mistaken, but what motive do I have to lie? I’m not trying to deliberately deceive anyone. ಠ_ಠ Your presumption of bad faith is, frankly, bewildering.
Requires you be a Teifling or have undergone the demon ritual to become a half fiendDemonic/Improved Posession requires "Demon or half-demon".
As far as I know, tieflings don't count as either. Maybe there is a way to make them count as such, but not by default.
True, but it's good for a Quasit or a Shadow Demon ;)
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,’:/
I’m no genius, but it seems to me that as teleport offers no save (except for attended objects) and only works on willing targets, where as ice crystal teleport is noted differently, allowing a will save, the intent of the spell is that it can be cast offensively.
You're obviously correct, teleport's target line is "you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures" while ice crystal teleport's is "one creature."
Oh oh! Daze. So much is wring with Daze, but the big one, one word: humanoid.
Ant spell that targets only humanoid just grinds my gears. There are off the top of my head 7 playable PC races in the Advanced Race Guide alone that are not humanoids but outsiders. So they're automatically immune to both the negative and positive effects of any spell that targets "humanoids". T'swhy I vouch for "Mostly Human" being the most powerful geniekin alternate racial trait. You count as human for feats, can be targeted by the good stuff, and all in exchange for what, a free racial language? Yes please.