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TheGreatWot wrote:

Not going with Rapid Reload isn't a chance with a big reward, it's an overall weaker build.

...

I was generally implying the idea that as opposed to Rapid Reload you have something more akin to Deadly Aim. A different route of power, getting more out of each now more valuable shot. I have 0 care for the meta, just want to have some fun.

TheGreatWot wrote:

...

Am I correct in assuming that you're ok with being less powerful?

0 f@**s are given about power. I have a portfolio of "sub par" builds all about having fun first. Something which a lot of people seem to have forgotten.

Basically, abilities have have obvious drawbacks. Power Attack sacrificing attack for damage. Reduced AC for damage. Things that make using them an actual risk and not just the standard fare. The standard fare is boring, sitting and doing the same thing with no stakes other than the attack roll.


TheGreatWot wrote:
Spending all of your panache or resolve is not a risk or a chance. It's a conscious choice. That's still up to you in the end.

Yes, but you have the slimmest chance to earn the Panache back through a confirmed critical hit, or felling the enemy with an attack. The Panache point, of which most characters tend to max out at 3, has value. It ties into half of your abilities functioning, you put the entirety of what your character can do on the line to spend them, which is why many builds focus on using them as little as possible.

A few rounds of Dare/Rage have no real value. They are basically irrelevant in most cases, you simply recieve too many for them to be worth anything.

You're missing the essence of the gamble I'm trying to capture. A Gunslinger has an equal chance to crit or misfire every shot, but with the raw power of firearms they are not gambling overall. Playing them without rapid reload makes every one of those easy to hit shots matter slightly more because you're forfeiting your next turn.


TheGreatWot wrote:

You could always play an actual darechaser.

Barbarians work well with darechaser, and they have some rage powers that can force enemies to target you. That means you'll take more damage, but you'll also be hitting things back for some good damage.

Boring... There's no downside, no risk. At least basic Barbarians risk their lives when their Con bonus dies. The Darechaser is the inverse of what I'm going for. It's a class of increasing the odds by adding 1d6+ exploding to a roll. Unless you're playing a character who cannot do those things and needs the exploding to hit at all...

The only bit on the other side of the coin is Fatigue when they're done. Even Panache has more downside as a limited resource with certain abilities that shut out if you spend all of it. In Starfinder spending all your Resolve means your safety net is gone, that's when it all matters.


Yeah Sacred Geometry, fun as a game it is on its own, wouldn't really fit. And would be a lot of time taken from the group. It is relatively low risk (a lost spell is a lost spell, a wasted turn but nothing more), and getting the reward is more of a logic puzzle than it is pure chance.

The Deck of Many things is gambling for gambling's sake, which is more at the core of the concept, while also missing it entirely. The point is to make every roll matter.

Currently I have a character that achieves this, not by design but by essentially being the wrong type of character for the AP they're in. It's in Starfinder and they're an Envoy with a focus on Intimidate in a campaign with nothing but things immune to mind affecting (didn't know before the campaign this would be the case). As a result, they have a relatively low attack bonus from class, but are also the 2nd strongest member of the team from a damage standpoint.

This character, with their main abilities often negates as a support, has a bunch of tools with which she gambles. She needs a 15 to hit most enemies due to the game balance, doesn't have very high AC and supplements it with an upgrade that makes creatures that hurt her take damage, and just due to me as a player often makes very high risk actions for the benefit of the rest of the party. This is a fun experience, and I'd love a character that rolls with that kind of concept.

Higher risk, higher reward. Forgo bonus for damage, take penalty for damage, take a hit for a chance! A true daredevil who does things for the sake of them, and waits for the moment where luck fails him and he dies in a glorious inferno.


The whole concept of a tabletop's rule fall down to chance, and in the case of the best builds, reducing that chance through consistency. I wanna try to make a character that does the opposite, both in concept and mechanics, but also in the sense of how to play the character. A concept that every action has a legitimate risk of failure, but also that super high payoff of reward. A character that is the very concept of gambling that gets shunted by the consistency of the game.

A Swashbuckler feels like the ideal class to facilitate this. They get a lot out of critical hits, though they lack the spectacular failure aspect. The class is too consistent, often widening crit range and giving large to-hit bonuses.

Basically I want the character to be early level Power Attack, where you feel the penalty, but the bonus is meaty. Like can only hit on a 15+ roll, but if they do hit massive damage and/or crazy debuffs. Is there possibility in this type of concept? I could forsee putting feats towards critical abilities as a potential, but I think that mandates being a Fighter, which with it draws in way too much consistency from things like Weapon Training.

I want the gamble to also stretch into the defense as well. A low chance to be missed, but perhaps a penalty if you do. Opportune Parry and Riposte from Swashbuckler again feels like it fits, especially when you look at it as a literal roll for roll skill challenge.

Abilities as well that gain benefits from bad situations. Like for example, when you're flanked you gain some benefit. Obviously not a consistent one, or that removes the risk. The whole point of actually playing this concept would be the rush of gambling, putting your life on the line for the sake of the big win. Take out that rush, it's just the standard fare, or a powergaming play.


Cool. Important to know cause it changes feat order on some characters. Little point taking Rapid Reload for the Double Barrel at 1 when realistically you can't make it until 2 grand falls in your lap. Also likely means some retraining if any character gets their hands on an Advanced Firearm.


This has been bugging me a bit since I first made a Musket Master, who get Rapid Reload (Muskets).

So just how specific do weapon choice feats have to be? In the case of the Musket Master what all qualifies under "Muskets" plural? The Axe Musket? Double Barrel Musket? The Rifle? If I want to take Rapid Reload on a pistol user, do you take "Pistols" or pick one type like say the Double Barrel Pistol? Or as in the feat do you go by type like "One-handed Firearms"?

Firearms is a unique Weapon Proficiency in that you take it once and get all. Why is it different? If you take Weapon Focus what do you Focus? Just one type of Firearm?

The normal weapons this never really mattered. It was always clearly say "Longsword", and unless another weapon says it counts as a Longsword doesn't apply.


Derklord wrote:

@Isaac Zephyr: Presuming your average Gunslinger build:

Dead Shot is inferior almost always inferior to just full attacking, unless the DR is very high. In any case, Clustered Shots is a thing (why wouldn't pistols get to benefit from it?).

Again, it's reload action economy. To get Clustered as early as possible, short of specifically Human or something else with Rapid Reload, you'll have Dead Shot same time as Clustered and have nothing else. (Assuming Pistol: Rapid Reload, Point Blank, Precise, and Clustered. On non bonus feat that your Feat 1, 3, 4, 5*, 7. Plus you'll be using Alchemical cartridges with larger misfire, a tradeoff I don't mind.)

I'm not here to convince anyone base Gunslinger abilities are better than the feats they mimic. They are a step down, but the fact the class gives them means you open the floor for other feats and builds. If you want to replace any deed by the level it's granted, usually you need to invest pretty deep into feat trees.

And you are correct, dead is the best debuff. Dropping a flier 20ft to the ground and fall damage, where my Barbarian can then rage smash him with a greatsword is a much faster way to get to that goal then me shooting it twice. Shooting a target in the legs to prone them so my rogue gets Sneak Attack, a much faster road then a second of my meager +dex bullets. It's a team game after all, and while the Gunslinger does certainly make a reliable damage dealer (if not a weak one compared to some of the other classes, which is why so often they're multiclassed), they have a very diverse toolkit for situations when not reduced to just pumping out the biggest damage numbers.

Targeting for the extended crit rate, also means higher crit rate at the cost of less chances to misfire, as with Alchemicals 1-2 is the misfire on most pistols. 10% to use percentile, so if every shot is 10% no weapon for a round (as Stranger looses Quick Clear, though has X misfire ignores so that's a thing) vs 20% percent crit, plus again reload economy if I haven't taken it, is a pretty sweet deal. Every shot is a gamble moreso than other characters. Your average roll will be neither, but when both can happen I'd prefer to stack the odds in my favor.

And nice as Reliable is, I cannot always guarantee to get a Reliable firearm. I could be in a campaign like Emerald Spire where getting custom items is a luxury. There's this big stigma about these forums like "Just get this!" like Agile weapons on any Dex character. Not all GMs allow you to pull or have whatever you want. I myself tend to be lenient with my players so long as they bring something to me first so I can read it over, check the publisher, and for errata compared to their sourcebook. I always advise them never to make a character reliant on a particular piece of equipment, or weapon enchantment, because I personally find it poor character design, and if something takes that away, say an anti-magic field, then their character is completely shut down and will not have a good time.


Harpies are in another game I play, Scion, which tries to stick closer to original myth. Original myth they had an unbearable stench. Them being dirty is a good explanation for this idea.


ryric wrote:

I'd go with this:

FAQ wrote:
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
To me, the intent seems clear that you can't construct a spell that would be over 9th level if all the metamagic adjustments applied.

Specific trumps general though, and Spell Perfection specifically states it doesn't alter the spell's level, which is part of the benefits of the (rather expensive late game) feat.


Derklord wrote:
(as the 7th and 11th level deeds all suck).

Wanted to address this on its own though, I've actually gotten a lot of mileage out of Targeting (Specifically legs and wings for gimping creatures for my melee allies, and torso in combination with any sort of improved critical for that sweet sweet 18-20 crit range on an ×4 weapon.), Bleeding Wound, and Lightning Reload (Even only once per round I've used it for partial full attacks to swap ammunition type halfway through, on your standard Gunslinger with pistol this gives you the action economy for the 3 attack full attack, so enough for base full at every level but 20 but not enough for Rapid Shot. Alternatively if you can get the revolver you can save your Swift as a Mysterious Stranger to activate your Cha+Dex.).

Bleeding Wound specifically has been a toss up of mine for a Signature Deed candidate, because that's a lot of bleed. Dead Shot is generally my better choice in the long run to crack through high DR, since pistols have a low damage output, and DR10/- pretty much negates the average Gunslinger. Since unless you're a Musket Master you can't really benefit from Clustered Shots, Dead Shot is a slightly less powerful alternative.


Derklord wrote:
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
there are also benefits to staying Gunslinger for more levels.
Name them please. I'm not trying to be hostile here, I'm genuinly curious because I really don't see what you get from staying in class that you wouldn't get better from multiclassing. The 15th elvel deeds aren't bad (especially Slinger’s Luck), but hardly worth ten class levels (as the 7th and 11th level deeds all suck). Signature Deed is pretty crappy since the nerf, and the "never misfire" thing Pistolero and Musket Master used to have was errata'd away, too.

Well, one I did was a tri-gun build. I skipped over early Rapid Reload in order to run Gun Training with my favored Double Barrel Pistol, the Dragon Pistol, and the Pepperbox with early as possible Snap Shot and Quick Draw. It was kind of equivalent to being a prepared caster with multiple Dragon Pistols with different alchemical cartridges, and between two Double Barrels and the Pepperbox I had more loaded ammunition than I'd ever need in a single combat, favoring magic ammunition over magic weapons (a few like the doubles were +1 or +2 from treasure) since I only really needed ammo to crack DR. Dex to damage on more options as we went on was useful, Signature Deed Dead Shot so I wasn't missing out on full attacks, and the high AC from basically a Dex SAD character and Nimble made me pretty much untouchable.

I've also been tempted to try out the Black Powder Vaulter, going 11 to Signature Deed the Daring Vault deed for +20 feet of speed permanently. Building a character focused on the fact BPV pretty much all of its replacement deeds cost 0 and being stupid mobile. Looking at it though, it would be viable with the Mysterious Stranger (which is arguably my favorite archtype for the class), so doing the Stranger Cha+Dex with Signature would be arguably pretty fun. Only too bad it doesn't mesh with Musket Master or Pistolero due to conflicts cause reload on the run for two musket shot on the runs, or the in and out Pistolero shot on the runs would be a good combo.

In terms of the big ticket item though, the capstone True Grit. Not enough campaigns go that far, but my choices for it are almost always Deadeye to make my range increments basically not matter anymore, and Dead Shot assuming I didn't take it with Signature.


willuwontu wrote:
Quote:
Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level.
You can't go over 9 at all with the adjusted spell level prior to the application of spell perfection, so neither of those are allowed.

Willu, that's incorrect. Spell Perfection negates the level modification. I italicized the relevant parts that state this from your quote.

Basically it's a reiteration of normal metamagic rules. You can't make a spell higher than 9th level and still cast it. If it said "unmodified", as certain other feats do, then you would be correct. I had to double check myself before I answered.


According to Spell Perfection: "total modified level" so basically you are correct. So long as the final post-math result doesn't exceed spell level 9 you're okay.

Magical Lineage however doesn't apply to a specific metamagic feat, it just reduces overall by 1. So your two maths:

Example 1: Disintegrate (6) + (Maximize (3) + Spell Perfection (-3)) + Empower (2) + Intensify (1) + Elemental (1) + Magical Lineage (-1) =
6 + (3-3) + 2 + 1 + 1 - 1 = 9

Example 2: Disintegrate (6) + (Quickened (4) + Spell Perfection (-4)) + Empower (2) + Intensify (1) + Magical Lineage (-1) =
6 + (4-4) + 2 + 1 -1 = 8

Spell Perfection basically negates the cost of whichever metamagic you're applying it to specifically. I use this on a Shocking Grasp character to have multiple levels where I can prep various versions of the spell with varying levels of modification.

Example: Shocking Grasp (1) + (Empowered (2) + Spell Perfection (-2)) + Intensify (1) + Magical Lineage (-1) =
1 + (2-2) + 1 - 1 = 1

Shocking Grasp (1) + (Intensify (1) + Spell Perfection (-1)) + Empower (2) + Magical Lineage (-1) =
1 + (1-1) + 2 - 1 = 2


Derklord wrote:
Tazmar wrote:
This friday I am playing a pirate themed campaign and just want help making my PC efficient. My race is a kasatha and i'm rolling stats. I've never made a gunslinger before so this is a bit new to me. Besides the the race and musket master you can do what ever.
If you really want to make your character efficient, you won't stay in or posisbly even take the Gunslinger class. Gunslinger is an utterly dead class after 5th level (everything you get you could get better from (a) different class(es)).

I beg to differ. I did a Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger I took to 11 to get Signature Deed and have permanent Dex+Cha to damage with my pistol of choice. I've also heard of Pistol Whip builds that go to at least 11 for Signature Deed as well.

I do agree the class is very front loaded, which makes it good for multiclassing, but there are also benefits to staying Gunslinger for more levels. Especially depending on the campaign, and your role in the party.


LordKailas wrote:

Well, keep in mind the base feat still gives you all the boons just at a slower rate. If there's a set of boons that you want that are specific to evangelist you can take the feat Diverse Obedience to get them. Sure, you don't get the transformation and perks from Evangelist, but it won't screw up your progression at all.

There are evil versions of the feat as well Damned Disciple and Damned Soldier.

Yeah, I've got a few Diverse characters. The call of Evangelist came from the +4 to a stat and the dodge bonus to AC. Boons were mostly gravy secondary cool things.


Wait, awe... Noticed Evangelist would be one level behind of Sorc, losing the Rebirth capstone... It was too good to be true.

Still an interesting alternative path for the character.


Alright, narrowed the deity choices down to the following:

Szuriel, Angel of Desolation of the Horsemen. Neutral Evil so Profane bonus, pretty cool abilities, Greatsword for weapon.

Sarenrae, the Dawnflower from Core. Neutral Good so matches my character's current alignment, second boon grants some Fire Resist so I'm not as hurt from my own crazy spells. Granted Fire Resist 10 is a drop in the bucket when at 5 you've git +15 on more spell damage.

Moloch, the Ashen Bull of the Archdevils. Lawful Evil, really cool boons when used correctly, unfortunately the fire damage doesn't benefit from all my spell boosts.

Flauros, the Burning Maw of the Demon Lords. Chaotic Evil, the third boon is crazy, adding an additional natural attack which with Evangelist final form would make for 4. With the Vermillion Wings, being a flying snake monster like Quetzalcoatl, while far from the original concept, is really cool. Downside it's an expensive (100gp/day) obedience.

Nurgal, the Shining Scourge of the Demon Lords. Chaotic Evil, really good boons. Keeps on the Solar and Abyssal Bloodlines.


Ugh, it's only too bad Feronia doesn't have Obediences. Her lore is a cool pick.


Yeah, I actually did a peep looking at part of the original concept of using a Greatsword, since Evangelist also gives proficiency with the diety's favored weapon. Most of the most fitting in terms of offered powers were demon lords, or that one giant god with the obedience of sitting in lava for an hour.

Yeah though, Sarenrae's healing abilities are a joke next to Phoenix bloodline healing, augmented by Solar. As an example, level 5, cure moderate is 2d8+5 vs burning hands being half of 5d4+11 (no Flumefire yet in the build or it'd be 16), or Fireball half of 6d6+13.


John Mechalas wrote:

One option for the sorcerer is the Evangelist PrC. It will cost you a feat and one level of class progression over the long haul, but you go from 1/2 BAB to 3/4 BAB. It's a minor improvement, though it comes at a less severe cost than a lot of other options.

That being said, you should lobby your GM to accept Fractional Base Bonuses from Unchained. Stacking +0's really sucks.

That's actually a decent idea. At 6 going Sorc 5, Evangelist 1 would make essentially no difference overall to the main progression save the stacking 0 and delaying a spell or two, but at 7 being back on Sorc track with the Evangelist 2 ability would mean just one sad level. I also still have a free feat in the build. Delaying the early feat progression by 2 levels isn't too bad. The class is online at 1 for the fire stuff and 3 for the claws.

Which Deity though would go best for the character? I'll have to research to see if there's anything that further supports the fire/healing, the in your face tactics, or else just the Demon/Phoenix conflict theme.


Tim Emrick wrote:
In contrast, my serpentine sorcerer is now 6th level, and has never made a single attack with his bloodline bite power. He's not remotely built for melee, so I decided long ago that if he ever has to resort to biting things rather than casting spells, it means that the mission has gone horribly, horribly wrong. ;)

That's probably going to wind up this Sorc's case. With +3 damage per die on evocation fire he's a monster. And there's five huge spells that are his bread and butter as he levels.

Burning Hands, Fireball, Detonate (Muhaha!), Fire Snake, and Delayed Blast Fireball. Metamagics if choice, Intensify because it's literally insane to add up to 5dX+15 to a spell, and have it optional half that much healing, and of course Selective. Selective Detonate is basically a full self heal and all my melee allies. Downside, the build currently doesn't get a lot of Fire Resistance taking Immolation over Friend of Fire.


Huh, neat. So so Sorcs just get bonus spells in order then? Explains some of the wording from Crossblooded too about taking spells from lower-levels.


Futsing around with a Solar Bloodline Sorcerer, and while messing about with my spellbook app I noticed something.

You get Searing Light as a bonus spell at level 3, but it's a 3rd level spell, which means you can't cast it until 5?


DeathlessOne wrote:
After playing around with a white-haired witch/Sylvan Trickster Unchained Rogue VMC Magus ... I have to say... I am impressed with the possibilities, especially if you take the Strength patron and get those tasty buff spells (Divine Favor/Divine Power specifically). The Maneuver Master Magus Arcana certainly helps with the BAB difference in CMB checks, and being able to use hexes to debuff the enemies is AMAZING.

Strength was my patron of choice as well. Flipside of VMC though using all of my available feats went down Feral Combat Training to get all the way to Greater Grapple and Kraken Style. So when she tags a target with the hair, maintaining has pretty respectable damage bonuses, and great action economy for battlefield control.

Downside... Still kinda wish WHW copy-pasted from the Prehensile Hair hex and just used Int for the hair's Str though. Would literally patch all the pitfalls for the class IMO.

Though I do still wonder about the vagueness on exactly what stats the hair gets to damage in the current version. As far as I can tell, damage for the hair is base die + 1.5×Str + Int due to it more often than not being the only Natural Weapon the Witch has.


Lelomenia wrote:
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
Dasrak wrote:
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
How so? Crossblooded neither alters, nor replaces the bloodline power class feature. It simply says you have two, pick one.
That is an alteration to the Blood Powers class feature. The Blood Powers class feature does not normally give you a choice, and Crossblooded modifies it to give you that choice. This also makes Wildblooded incompatible with Crossblooded.
Do you have an FAQ on that one? While I don't disagree with your description, as it is indeed different from the norm, nothing in Crossblooded uses those all important words "This alters/replaces Bloodline". It adds a new ability on top of everything (two in fact when you consider the Drawback aspect of it), but everything about each of the options it gives you multiples of is unchanged.
faq seems to be applicable to the wild blooded/cross blooded question without too much squinting.

Fair. I was wrong for Wildblooded and Crossblooded from a PFS perspective, though it also says they are viable as compatible so long as Crossblooded isn't accessing powers Wildblooded is replacing.

Bloodline Mutations in and of themselves are additional choice, with the following line: "Whenever a bloodrager or a sorcerer gains a new bloodline power, she can swap her bloodline power for a bloodline mutation whose prerequisites she meets. Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed, and a bloodrager or sorcerer cannot swap a bloodline power that she has altered or replaced with an archetype for a bloodline mutation."

So Wildblooded, which replaces one bloodline power, cannot mutate the replaced power. Crossblooded though isn't replacing any Bloodline powers, you simply have two bloodlines, but can still only gain one power. It's not replacing certain aspects of your bloodline, you have two, and a penalty for having two.


Dasrak wrote:
Isaac Zephyr wrote:
How so? Crossblooded neither alters, nor replaces the bloodline power class feature. It simply says you have two, pick one.
That is an alteration to the Blood Powers class feature. The Blood Powers class feature does not normally give you a choice, and Crossblooded modifies it to give you that choice. This also makes Wildblooded incompatible with Crossblooded.

Do you have an FAQ on that one? While I don't disagree with your description, as it is indeed different from the norm, nothing in Crossblooded uses those all important words "This alters/replaces Bloodline". It adds a new ability on top of everything (two in fact when you consider the Drawback aspect of it), but everything about each of the options it gives you multiples of is unchanged.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
When I use classes that are 1/2 BAB as a melee-focused character, I try to maximize the ways to attack Touch AC rather than normal AC. Weapon Focus is a great feat for 1/2 BAB classes because it essentially gives you 2 levels of BAB progression.

The Witch has Weapon Focus (needed it for Feral Combat Training), not sure I could fit it onto the Sorc though.

Is there an easy way to make an attack target Touch AC? Really Sorc only needs it for claws, Witch would love it for full concept. There's not perchance an easy magical enhancement that could be tossed on the Amulet of Mighty Fists (probably not because it would be a no brainer augment for literally every martial character) or a weird slotted item that even just gives X attacks target TAC per day?


Bloodrealm wrote:
Have you thought of using a Pyrokineticist instead (with or without the Kinetic Knight archetype)?

Kineticist has been a bit of a white whale character for me. I find it neat but can't think of a concept I like for it.

The fire aspects were less what I wanted from the Phoenix bloodline and more the rebirth concepts. It just synergizes really well with Solar to get more healing out of it, and sub in more bloodline fire spells to take advantage of he bloodline arcana with reduced spells known.

Concept trumps mechanics for me, to match this concept originally it was going to be Crossblooded Abyssal and Phoenix, but summoning bonuses did nothing for the character. I was going to sub in the demonic aspects through being a Tiefling, but couldn't get a mix of racial traits that I liked (and Fiendish Sorcery was useless without taking Abyssal, plus swapping Bloodline Power 1 for Blood Havoc, and wanting more of Phoenix's bloodline powers than Abyssals killed basically any benefits it would offer, so race was offering nothing to the build other than a Cha boost). So to keep demon in the concept, Eldritch Heritage becomes key.

Then as the desire is to get more out of being in people's faces, Crossblooded's reduced spells known is a fair tradeoff for additional bloodline abilities (and the -2 Will drawback also fit the concept), and by taking Solar again, good synergy with the still spellcasting aspects of the class.

The thing I'm most interested in are basically locked into the Sorcerer chassis. And by all accounts, even without being effective with the claws he's got enough going on to be a valued member of any party he's in. Intensified, +2 damage per die Fireballs that can either nuke or heal is a really cool niche.


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Bloodrealm wrote:
So basically what you meant in the OP by "some of the more interesting builds" was closer to "these extremely specific builds" and by "bar of entry" you meant "make the character able to do everything well"? Sometimes things have boundaries, not hurdles; that's part of why it's a party-based game.

You can low key insult me all you like. I have a bunch of odd builds I like to try with different bars of entry to meet the game's proposed difficulty, and those who play with me know I'm the first to be the team player or leader.

These two specifics are my one with a BAB problem, because in my head, the sorcerer in particular, I did more envision a Bloodrager. I liked the Phoenix bloodline for its thematic though for a very old character from one of my earliest stories. Unfortunately, they do not mix. So if I want the abilities that fit the character concept I need to be a Sorcerer, and get at least 9, preferably 20, levels of the class to get all the bloodline abilities I want from it.

The concept revolves around idea of struggling with one's inner demons and letting it out. Part of why I would have preferred Bloodrager, but again, lacks the flavor I'm going for. For that reason my first racial ideas were the Pit-Born Tiefling or the Emberkin Aasimar due to their flavor, before settling on Half-Elf to cut out the dead level range needing to pick up Skill Focus for Eldritch Heritage.

How I want him to fight to fit the concept involves being up in people's faces. Whether taking advantage of Immolate, Claws, or the variety of other tools the class has available. The downside is the class I'm stuck with doesn't do that very well, it casts spells well. I'm trying to build the class against the grain (with a 16 starting Str, to be boosted by Abyssal bloodline Str boost to an endgame 22 without magic) to at least reach a passable level for what I want to do, while still committing enough to what the class does well that I can make a meaningful contribution to the part I play in.


Dasrak wrote:
Remember that if you take Crossblooded you can only take bloodline mutations as bloodline feats; the Crossblooded archetype modifies the bloodline power class features, and therefor they cannot be swapped out for mutations.

How so? Crossblooded neither alters, nor replaces the bloodline power class feature. It simply says you have two, pick one. Bloodline Mutations replace your choice with the mutation, but cannot swap an altered one, say from Wildblooded. For this reason you could be Crossblooded with Wildblooded as they don't alter the same ability. You could even forgo your Wildblooded power with Crossblooded (though why you would I'm not sure).


I tumbled the WHW around a while with a couple different multiclass options to try and accomplish a few different things (the Neckbreaker feat being the first big one, but it turned out to be basically impossible and didn't work how I hoped it would). In the end, the best solution to the problem ended up being go pure WHW, build the combat feats to maximize Grapple (due to again, very poor design decisions like only getting Int to grapple when specifically making the grapple attempt on a successful attack, not to maintain) and rely heavy on Transmutation and Polymorph spells to be big and scary. Not ideal for what it does, but I got the character I wanted out of it in the end.

The Sorcerer, the claws are entirely secondary. The main strat is Crossblooded with the Solar bloodline and the new Phoenix bloodline. Basically max out the capabilities of Fire spells since each of them is double use. With the Blood Havoc mutation, Solar's arcana, Flumefire Rage, and more. When looking at his physical capabilities, I wanted originally to give him a greatsword or another big martial weapon (for thematic reasons), but measuring multiple proficiency feats versus getting +6 Str and a decent enough scaling melee weapon (which at higher levels becomes Flaming, which synergizes with Friend of Fire from the Solar bloodline. Still a toss up between whether to take it or Immolate for the level 3 bloodline ability, since FoF is only for self healing, and Immolate insentivizes being up in people's face which would make you likely need the self healing more... Both would be nice but it isn't viable when you want both level 9 bloodline powers for infinite flight and a tonne of for everyone healing) taking a third bloodline to cherry pick some more bloodline powers was the better option.

When the main thing you want to do is tied to the 1/2 BAB class, and the aspects of that class are what you want, (WHW crazy reach grabbing natural weapon, Sorc bloodline arcanas for healing fire) you don't quite have the choice to just grab a different class. Honestly, I would have just made a Phoenix bloodline Bloodrager if it was an option, but it's not. I would have made a White Haired Monk, but again not an option. If somehow a Gestalt game falls into my lap, then perhaps I would consider the homebrew of mixing either with a Fighter or UMonk, as it stands though I'm asking when you're stuck 15 levels in a class, how to get over this particular hurdle.


I find this is the biggest bar of entry for some of the more interesting builds. Of note I've got two characters that need to get over this hurdle. The first being a White Haired Witch, which more suffers from poor design decisions than anything. The other is a Sorcerer who I want to focus on using the Abyssal bloodline claws and the inherent +6 to Strength (through Eldritch Heritage, they're actually Crossblooded with two other bloodlines for the character I wanted to build, before someone suggests just taking Heritage on a different character).

Honestly, the missing +10 to attack over 20 levels hurts hard. I'm aware the tradeoff is spells that generally fire against TAC, or else target saves, thus very rarely will you need to be trying to hit AC at all. My point remains though, if that is what a character wants to do, how can you surmount this hurdle?


"When casting any spell that deals fire damage, you can instead heal your targets. The spell deals no damage, and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal."

This seems to read as all targets of the spell, you can't be selective about who gets heals and who gets burned. So Fireball example, cannot drop it on top of your Fighter without either burning him to ash, or healing all the enemies around him. Other example Scorching Ray, firing multiple rays one can't be a healing ray while the others are burn rays.

Now stupid questions, are there any ways around this limitation? It's still a useful bloodline arcana either way with a tonne of utility, so no big deal if not, but I am curious.

Stupid question two, Blood Havoc for +1 damage per die. The spell now deals no damage, but heals for half the fire damage it would have normally dealt. So does the +1 per die apply as it would have been part of the spell's normal damage?

Question three, Elemental Spell metamagic and other partially fire damage spells. You can make a spell half fire damage, so how does that convoluted mess work if say Chain Lightning is dealing 50% elec, 50% fire, can you make the Fire portion heal? If anyone wonders why someone would ever do that, I counter that you never know what idea a player might come up with.

The fourth question, which I think is addressed by the ability but not sure, how are undead/constructs effected? It's not positive energy, and the definition of "living" as I've learned from Starfinder is kinda vague. If say a player in the party is a Dhampir would be a good grey area.

Question the last that popped into my head, saves. Since the spell no longer deals damage would it gain that "Harmless" keyword that lets you just tank it to the face?

EDIT: Another question: Fire Resistance. Damage it would have normally dealt. Does that mean before or after any fire resistance the target has?

Yet more, Crossblooded with the Solar bloodline. "Whenever you cast a spell with the fire descriptor, if it deals damage, it deals +1 point of damage per die rolled." same question as Blood Havoc.


I had always assumed these were interchangeable, but with Heroes of Golarion's release having multiple Bloodrager bloodlines and the Phoenix Sorcerer bloodline I'm not so sure.

I mean, the only differences between the two are generally a couple of different feat selections (Sorcerers getting Metamagic and Bloodragers often getting more Combat), and occasionally more relevant bonus spells.

Which kinda sucks, cause the Phoenix bloodline was thematically on point for a character concept I've had floating around for a long time. Downside they're primarily a melee greatsword user, which doesn't work for a flat Sorc, but would have been brilliant for a Bloodrager. (I know multiclassing would also be an option, but then it really delays the whole being reborn from ashes thing and nukes the capstone.)

But I digress, I've also suggested a person use the Sorc bloodline they wanted on a Bloodrager. In this case, the Nanite bloodline (as it isn't great on flat Sorc). So was I totally wrong and homebrewing for people this whole time?


Garretmander wrote:
I'm still a bit hung up on why 18 CHA seems so necessary to some for an envoy though? I get it if you're built to feint/demoralize, but if you're not, why aren't a few of those points knocked over to INT or DEX?

I'm probably not the best to answer, as pointed out I am a demoralize build. We just hit 7 and after 2 personal upgrades my stats are as follows:

Str 17 (Mk II)
Dex 16 (Mk I)
Con 10
Int 14*
Wis 10
Cha 19

My main reason for maxing Cha? Resolve points. I could have had more Con for hit points and Fort, Dex/Str for attack, Wis for a few skills and Will, but Resolve for me has multiple uses.

The first, more chances to 10 minute break my stamina back up, especially considering I deliberately provoke a lot of AoO that don't have much trouble hitting me.

The second, ties a bit into the first, compared to starting 14 I've got 2 more Resolve which means at least 1 extra time of remaining at 1 HP instead of dying. I got crit by a trap last night that dealt something dumb like 156 damage, and thanks to resolve I was allowed to stay at 1. Minimal extra HP makes no difference when you have the ability to stay at 1.

The third, less Envoy than it is my archtype, Skyfire Centurion bonded ally swap at 10 costs a resolve. The ability to do that more often to trade my +4 cover/harry around, or swap my concentrate fire to an ally who's having trouble dealing damage against an enemy whether due to DR or a specific resistance (anti mind effecting is a big hit to our Mystic and I).

Basically every resolve point I have is one more combat in our day. Were I an Operative I could have maxed Dex and done similar, but would then lack the main things I wanted like move action baby demoralize, and sharing Expertise dice in skills I lack the maxed stat for.

*Human so I also have a bonus skill point/level


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People have seemed pretty on the nose with things thus far. I was going to go provocative just like my Envoy does and say "please consult my finger located between first and third".

I'm a full Cha, melee Envoy without Get 'Em or Inspiring Boost, and no combat feats outside of Improved Unarmed Strike. Bad character? Well considering I'm pretty much second most effective in combat (even having solo'd a boss encounter through sheer dumb luck), and probably the person at the table who has the most fun, I'd say not.

I have max Intimidate, Diplomacy, Computers, Engineering, Piloting, you name it. Three Skill Focuses because hey, when you can roll a 1 to Aid another, but use Lend Expertise to give someone else with a higher Int your +1d6+1 to Engineering and still get a +3 for yourself? Or else if you really need to succeed a Diplomacy, drop the die, but still have a +3 bonus?

Oh, and did I mention I'm archtyped as a Skyfire Centurion? Our hammer fist Vesk takes good advantage at our current level from my combat feat choice. And I have a whopping one point in the Medicine skill that not only will let me first aid as a move action, but again, hey Mystic, want my Medicine Expertise die?

Like oh no, I don't do as much damage as the Vesk or the Operative. The Shaken condition which I can give as a move action with Quick Dispiriting Taunt, and the Cruel fusion on my sword mean I Sicken, and that has saved the ass of our teammates on more than one occasion, and forgoing heavy armor and just taking an Electrostatic Field to mean I can run around provoking AoOs and eating hits that deal damage back?

Yeah, I don't do the optimal Envoy stuff. Yeah, my to hit is fairly low compared to my max combat stat allies. Screw the numbers though, I do more on the battlefield than most of them combined, and as I level will just get more long-term tools to power my allies and continue being a menace myself. Our GM knows he has to focus me over the soldier, because as hard as he can hit, if I get into the right place, Coordinated Shot and my Combat Bond means I'm giving +5 minimum to my ally of choice so long as I've still got resolve. And max Cha I have a boatload of it (even though I don't have a personal upgrade for it yet).

Not to mention what I can do in a Starship. Combat Bond from Centurion is huge, and Orders to our Pilot and Engineer (Mechanic with the unique actions so better me give him two than to do it myself, which I can also do if his higher Dex wants to get on a gun). I can literally do every role effectively.

The Envoy is an amazing class in hands that don't reduce it to numbers and go along the grain. It has really cool synergy with a lot of "sub optimal" stuff. Sky Jockey, Coordinated Shot with Jump Jets and the Electrostatic Field alone makes anyone a combat threat. The Envoy's late action economy with taunts, boosts, and others make the combo a menace.


Yeah, the math doesn't check out between the ability to actually earn credits, and what bits of cost of living are presented in the book.

I chose to play an Icon, and got everything I possibly could to be the best rockstar I could be (save Skill Focus, cause my table would probably lynch me for wasting a feat, and I've already got 3 other skill focuses). I can make between 22-41 credits after a week of work at level 6. That doesn't even pay for a week of hotel stays.

Now I get it, the wanted to nip profession in the bud to maintain WBL, especially since it's not the point of the game to be the best potato farmer in the universe (our Mystic has Profession: Herbalist, and our Operative has Brewer, we pretty much all have alternative jobs). However, if a celebrity can't pay the bills of the average Joe, you've kinda shot immersion in the foot for the sake of balance.

My best way to justify it is that your profits from profession are after the basics. The rent for your hovel on your homeworld, your phone bill to keep using your comm unit, extranet fees, etcetera that are automatically deducted from your account at the end of the month. Docking fees for the ship would also be in there. And there's a small, imperceptible percentage of your adventuring rewards that also goes toward this behind the scenes bookkeeping.

Cause yeah, it's fun for world building and immersion, but at the end of the day it's bookkeeping that isn't relevant to the game as a whole to keep it moving.


Oh! It wasn't Pathfinder but I remembered one from a White Wolf game.

I'm a note taker. Our storyteller had us go through some foresty thing and had one player roll a specific check to navigate. Later in the story we had to return to the area, just a few of us while the others tended to their own business.

So I rolled the check from the prior time, which I had written down from that session. Nothing. Try again. Nothing. I'm guessing maybe not enough successes or whatever, so we keep going and he's tossing us every which way. Eventually I confronted him. "Oh that's not the roll you need to be doing."

I literally had it written down from the prior session. So I ask if it was something specific that player had that let them use that check instead. Nope. He claimed they never made that check.

He jerked us around for the full 3 hour session, trying to argue I was the one who was wrong. When I not only had it written down, but I could prove the only dice pool on her character sheet that had the number of dice in question was the check in question. So he jerked us around 3 hours as punishment for wanting to do some roleplaying and needing to get through an obstacle we'd tackled before.

This was a man by the way who wanted people to pay him to run sessions, coerced us into playing this particular game in the first place (which it's now one of my favorite games, so I guess it's not all bad for me), and I learned later his "custom adventure" was just the premade from the main book. I'm still convinced the reason he jerked us around was because he didn't have anything prepped outside of the railroad of the premade (despite the fact I had talked to him for more than a week prior about wanting to do this particular course of action), and was stalling.


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I would like to see it expanded to unarmed strikes/natural attacks and melee weapons that are traditionally seen as finessible (such as fencing blades or whip-like weapons).
This, this is exactly what I was talking about!

The only problem is it would drastically skew the power of them in the hands of the Operative. Unarmed Strikes are actually very strong in terms of raw dice (on par with the Dueling Sword until late levels), and it was calculated before that US would out-damage every Operative option even with the -5.

Now this hasn't been checked again since the addition of Advanced Melee Operative weapons, from what I've seen though they still have relatively low comparative overall damage, their advantages coming in the form of new traits like Polarize.


As far as I can tell, Uncanny Mobility triggers on the declaration. Otherwise it wouldn't really have function since the roll is just prior to the attack. Order of operations > Move - Skill - Attack.

A trick attack is the full round action, and Uncanny specifies "when you make" not "when you succeed at" like other abilities.


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I have a few characters who stray a little off the beaten path: A Str Rogue, a Shifter with a decent Int, more characters with 14+ Cha than the average person.

However, my more odd characters are generally from archtypes which many would say suck. And unfortunately due to the priority shifts that those archtypes provide, most of the unusual stat choices are actually rather justified. Like a Warpriest rocking a 14 Cha because they're a Champion of the Faith and thus get Smite, or a Thunderstriker Fighter with 16 Cha since they're taking the Sanguine Angel prestige class and get a lot out of Signature Skill: Intimidate skill unlocks.

I've also got some oddities like a 14 Str, 13 Wis Witch, but as the White Haired Witch, most of that is to get feat prereqs on the grappling line.


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He's an embodiment of evil and chaos? Bits of his body come off and become almighty raging monsters and abominations?

To quote from another game, the actions of gods defy mortal understanding.


Yqatuba wrote:
Thunderball. Would be just like fireball but does half lightning half sonic damage. Not sure if this would make it higher level or not.

I would label that already kinda doable. Elemental Spell metamagic you can swap the element type on a spell. Mix the the Sylph trait to 1/day make any electricity spell deal half Sonic damage and there you go. As described as a +1 level spell.


Yeah. I was going to say: Always RP. It's kind of the point. I have had some disruptive players though. There are problem player types whom I'd generally say "leave the nonsense behind, you're in a battle".

Two examples in particular, I had one player who always played the over reluctant hero. The emo one who doesn't want to go on adventures and needs to be convinced. That was just how they always were, and it detracted from everyone else.

The second was I was attempting to run PTU (Pokémon Tabletop United), a game built from the ground up as a d20 Pokémon game. All my players built characters who wanted to do drastically different things, despite the fact I told them "this is going to be very go through the region, win gym badges etc." So I had two players who just flat out refused to participate in things and whine when things were tough because they were trying to cheese all the encounters prior (one found out essentially below a certain level that one particular action was a win button).


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Deaf oracles already get silent spell for free, without modifying casting time or spell level.

Yes I know, but deafness also bears additional penalties. A penalty on Perception checks, and Initiative being the really big ones. Mute lacks additional downside to "pay" for free Silent Spell. Especially since you have access to sign language and other negate the downside options like telepathy.


I always assumed "see" to be used in the general sense. Especially since a variety of species have blindsight in whatever other sense. So it's a form of sight, thus you "see" with it.

Not sure on races that only have blindsense though. If something lacked any form of precise sight, I am curious to know and tagged the FAQ. Considering the inclusiveness of Starfinder, even down to sign and tactile language, I can't see them making an option that couldn't effectively do whatever the player might want.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Perfect Preparation does not affect your spells known in any way shape or form. What it does is allow you to prepare any spell you know without needed anything else. Basically you store your spells in your head instead of book or a familiar.

So then it raises the question for me, how do you learn a spell from a scroll if you do away with your spellbook or familiar? Negate write/copy cost, you just learn it straight from the scroll?


Perfect Preparation (Ex)
"You have discovered the secret to preparing spells without having to refer to outside sources. You no longer need to prepare spells from a spellbook (if you’re a magus or wizard) or a familiar (if you’re a witch). You still must spend the normal amount of time preparing spells. You may keep or discard your spellbook or familiar."

Does this mean you can prepare any spell from your classes spell list, so long as it is of a level you can cast? If you can just do away with your spellbook there's no keeping track of what spells you know, so I can only assume you basically become an arcane Cleric in terms of spells.


Tongues is already a curse which is more or less similar to the idea of mute.

The problem with mute: you cannot do verbal spell components. No verbal components means basically no spells, which would destroy the Oracle as a class option.

They can't get Silent Spell free since as a Spontaneous caster not only would it take higher level slots, but all spells would become full round actions.

Now as an accessible type person, I would allow sign language as language for verbal, but arguably then it would be a somatic component. So they'd really never have enough hands. Since this isn't PF2, where you can have multiple somatic components in a spell, the framework doesn't exist. And level 1 free silent spell is a bit strong for a drawback.

Basically, they would need Silent Spell or have no spells. If you make that the reward of the curse eventually, then they're useless until then. If you give it to them immediately it's really powerful and makes the curse no longer a drawback.

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