Are the names set in stone?


Character Operations Manual Playtest General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I am not a fan of the “smoosh two words together to make a class name” method of class naming. However I know that Paizo in the past has been tetchy about criticism of their class naming conventions.

If the class names are not up for feedback, that’s totally fine, it’s paizo’s game. But humbly, may we offer some alternatives:

Vanguard - It’s actually great. I’m totes fine with redefining words that exist for new contexts.

Witchwarp:


  • Weird
  • Paradoxer
  • Quantumancer

Biohacker:


  • Biochemist
  • Chemist
  • Scientist

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Okay, I actually super like the proposal for Quantumancer, because that actually sounds really neat. I do want to push back against Biohacker though. Personally, I quite like the name, and the proposed alternatives sound more appropriate for themes.


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I don't love Witchwarper, although I understand why they went there. It has some Witch-like functionality (debuff and support, with some blasting and utility) and of course it is warping reality. I guess I'll get used to it.


I haven't looked at the Witchwarp class yet, but i agree that the name sounds weird. However i think Biohacker is fine as is. It's already an existing term and while chemist or biochemist might be slightly more accurate because of all the injections, it sounds far less sci-fi.


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I like Biohaker and Witchwaerp, but elsewhere I suggested Axion or Axian for the Vanguard name because I dig the aspect of the class being on the Axis of Order and Disorder, Creation and Destruction and the vague Solarion feel the word sounds like.

Paizo Employee Starfinder Design Lead

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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
If the class names are not up for feedback, that’s totally fine, it’s paizo’s game. But humbly, may we offer some alternatives:

We put a lot of thought into the names, and there are some fair specific things we need a class name to do.

However, we are also totally up to hear your thoughts on names. Not just for classes, but also class features, abilities, spells, and so on.

In general, we want a name that won't make life difficult when writing an adventure. For example, we don't want to call a class a scientist, because then if we say "The rumors are five scientists have gone missing," there's a question on if we mean generic scientists, or members of the scientist class.
Sometimes we fail at that--soldier is a good example of a too-generic name for this purpose (though it's fairly easy to use guard, security agent, trooper, military personnel, and so on). But failing once doesn't mean it's not still a big issue for us, for future clarity.

We don't want to use a name that suggests we'll never do another class, or theme, or archetype that fits the same niche. Here soldier is actually pretty good. We DON'T intend to do another class that is at its core a soldier, and when we o themes that are similar we get most specific (bounty hunter, mercenary), and when we do archetypes we tend to be more flavorful (star knight).

We also want a class to do a good job thematically describing the class. A biohacker is not, for example, a general-purpose scientist. They have a much more specific and focused role, and we'd want any name to convey that.

But that doesn't mean we have found the perfect names! I am always interested in seeing suggestions, and seeing if anything both does a better job fitting our game needs, and resonates better with the community.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like the existing names. However, Quantumancer might be an improvement; it has a more sci-fi feel.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Thanks Owen!

Biohacker is one that really bothers me but only because it feels like it limits the scope of what the class represents. “Hacking” feels like it’s always somewhat punk and transgressive but your biohacker could very well be a prestigious scientist from an acclaimed academy.

It’s the biological sciences equivalent of the Mechanic class, and the mechanic wasn’t called the Machinehacker.

I’d really like to call the biohacker the Doctor.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I’d really like to call the biohacker the Doctor.

Doctor who?


Gamerskum wrote:
I like Biohaker and Witchwaerp, but elsewhere I suggested Axion or Axian for the Vanguard name because I dig the aspect of the class being on the Axis of Order and Disorder, Creation and Destruction and the vague Solarion feel the word sounds like.

Ha I just had the same discussion with you on Facebook I believe :D :D


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I am not a fan of the “smoosh two words together to make a class name” method of class naming.

Witchwarp:

  • Quantumancer

Just to be pedantic, Quantumancer is also two words smooshed together.

I also think that Witchwarper fits the class better. A quantum is something of finite size. A packet of energy, for example. I guess switching quantums of various alternate realities would fit, but it wouldn't be how anyone except a member of the class would describe it. To everyone else, they are warping reality - and probably considered a witch as a result.


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Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

I do not care for "Thingamancer" naming scheme outside of Erfworld.
Biohacker is nice, since that's the actual term that's sprung up, although I wish they got more abilities in line with biohacking (i.e. permanent changes).


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Well, in software development (where the term hacking comes from) a hack is always intended to be temporary.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
breithauptclan wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

I am not a fan of the “smoosh two words together to make a class name” method of class naming.

Witchwarp:

  • Quantumancer

Just to be pedantic, Quantumancer is also two words smooshed together.

I also think that Witchwarper fits the class better. A quantum is something of finite size. A packet of energy, for example. I guess switching quantums of various alternate realities would fit, but it wouldn't be how anyone except a member of the class would describe it. To everyone else, they are warping reality - and probably considered a witch as a result.

-mancer is a suffix appended to another word to iindicate a diviner of a particular kind.

See also: Necromancer, Technomancer.

In this instance the -mancer suffix is even more relevant as the caster does see multiple quantum states and navigates the universe by those submolecular stars.


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I personally despise the "just call it quantum so it sounds future!" concept.

Unless the class gets an ability called Ultraviolet Catastrophe, it has no right to the word Quantum

Exo-Guardians

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breithauptclan wrote:
Well, in software development (where the term hacking comes from) a hack is always intended to be temporary.

Hacking as a term we use today is actually far older than software development, it originated in the 70's as a term to describe people who built micro computers in their gauge, it was expanded in the 80's and 90's to include software and eventually web based hacks, but the actual term "hack" really just refers to a workaround, however I can attest from experience that most "Hacks" turn permanent real quick when you're trying to keep a company's systems running.


Im reminded of the "Hacking photosythesis" vine.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber

Personally, I prefer Biohacker, Space Masochist, and Warpweaver.

I wouldn't be against the Biohacker getting a more medicine-sounding name though, as they're all about giving you your shots.

The Vanguard sounds all noble and heroic, but all I see is a class that wants people and things to hurt it so it can get stronger. At least in my case, I'll want to play with so-so AC so that things hit me often enough to stack up tons of EP.

The Witchwarp first of all doesn't sound like something you'd call a person or a person's profession. It sounds like an alternative name for the Drift. Second, I don't get much of a witchy vibe from the class. You don't wear pointy hats, you don't brew potions, you don't have a familiar, etc.


Cellion wrote:

The Vanguard sounds all noble and heroic, but all I see is a class that wants people and things to hurt it so it can get stronger. At least in my case, I'll want to play with so-so AC so that things hit me often enough to stack up tons of EP.

Yeah Vanguard sounds too positive, my solution would be Endmaker or Endseeker, but those sound too negative. I can see how it is hard to come up with class names. Another point, while we are on the Vanguard, is that they have two disciplines that basically do somewhat of the same thing and have titles for those abilities that sound the same, that would be Interfere and Intervene. I think as a GM if my vanguard said they are going to one of these actions I might confuse it for the other.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My best attempt to rename Vanguard is "Chaos Warden." However, I think that sounds too negative for a class. It would be a cool name for an archetype though.


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Chaos =/= Entropy

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gamerskum wrote:
Chaos =/= Entropy

Vanguard =/= Entropy


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Hmmm Entropic Points, Entroic Strike,Entropic Attunment ... and most if not all of its powers having to do with Thermodynamic systems and Entropy begs to differ.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You missed my point.

The word "Vanguard" =/= Entropy.

You are holding my post to a standard that the current class name does not meet.


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AH I agree I've already suggested something that I think fits better.


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I'm not a huge fan of Vanguard. Personally feel it's perhaps a bit too mundane & generic. I can't say as if I have an alternative as I'm terrible at naming things but out of all of them it's the one I like the least.


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How about Dynamo for Vanguard? It's both a device that converts mechanical energy in to another type (usually electric) and is a name for a dynamic person.


What about Entropist for the Vanguard? It places it in line with the Solarian's naming convention, at least. Solarians manipulate solar energies, Entropists manipulate entropy.
The issues I have with Vanguard are that, firstly, I feel like it kind of misses the main thrust of the class. Yeah you are someone who likes getting in the opponent's face, but the fact that you do that by controlling the underlying interplay of chaos inherent in energy systems seems like it is way more central to the class' appeal. Reading the class' name I would never guess that was the direction it was going and that sort of bugged me.
Secondly, the name Vanguard sounds like an excellent name for a soldier's fighting style, and it would be a shame to miss that opportunity.

I really like the name Warpweaver for the Witchwarp class. I don't remember who said it but I agree with the poster who said the class doesn't feel very witch-y. It does warp reality, however, and it weaves magic together for spells, and the name is also just fun to say.

Also I totally didn't know biohacking was a thing until reading this thread. You really do learn something new every day.


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Like others I was a little blindsided by the entropy theme that vanguards get. The name fits their assumed combat style, it just doesn't quite fit the class' flavor.

I also like warpweaver over witchwarp, but I'm still not sold on it either. Warpweaver sounds more like an archetype to me. I feel like it needs to sound a bit more occult than either name, but I don't have any good ideas.


I love Witchwarp, blends SciFi and Fantasy nicely in its name, but Weird is cool too.

Vanguard works for a name for a defensive class, but hmm, doesn't really play with Entropy.


Ramble time.

Hmm, Entropy, so maybe (namewise) something to do with Proteans, Wyrm-something.

Wyrmwalker?
Wyrmscale?

Maybe something to do with Quietus?

Locus (cause I like it)

What about "Constant"?

Fated?

Edit 7:33am Nihilon, from Ex Nihilo?

Edit 7:34am oh oh oh, what about Bastion? Defensive, while also dealing with them being in the middle of Entropy, both using and defending against it.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
In general, we want a name that won't make life difficult when writing an adventure. For example, we don't want to call a class a scientist, because then if we say "The rumors are five scientists have gone missing," there's a question on if we mean generic scientists, or members of the scientist class.

Bastion would work well for this I think, since you can more easily parse whether it's a person or place, whereas Vanguard is a commonly used designation for a person or groupings of people in lots of situations.


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I really like the name, Vanguard, for that class as I find it very fitting for what they will be most likely be doing in battle. They are the tip of the spear and will be right in the thick of things, drawing as much attention as they can because they need it to be more effective with their abilities. I do not think that their name has to reflect their power source. After all, the Barbarian class is not called the Berserker, even though that is exactly what they do. I mean, if classes all had to be named after they source of power as opposed to what they do or what they are in the setting, then shouldn't the Ranger be called a Hunter or the Oracle be called the "Divine Spontaneous Caster" (they aren't predicting the future as part of their class abilities, so why give them that name).
In short, I REALLY like the Vanguard name and find it the most fitting of all the new class names; so, please DO NOT change it.

As to the Biohacker, I am fine with it. But, I am cool with something like Doctor, Doc, Physician, Medic, or Sawbones, too. Though those last two are probably less appropriate, I think. I think I might like Doc best though, as that is something less likely to come up as a generic descriptor in an adventure to confuse the class name and yet also really gets the general point across for what the class is.

I don't know what to think of the Witchwarper, but I kind of like calling it "Weirder" just because, to me, it is the weirdest one so far.


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Thundarr the Barbarian wrote:
After all, the Barbarian class is not called the Berserker, even though that is exactly what they do.
I wouldn't mind Barbarian being renamed Berserker.
Quote:
then shouldn't the Ranger be called a Hunter
Near synonyms.
Quote:
or the Oracle be called the "Divine Spontaneous Caster" (they aren't predicting the future as part of their class abilities, so why give them that name).
Because the plainest definition of Oracle is "medium for the gods", not just prophecy/future gazing, so Oracle is accurate since being a medium for the Gods is what they are.
Quote:
In short, I REALLY like the Vanguard name and find it the most fitting of all the new class names; so, please DO NOT change it.

I don't think it's a bad name outright, it just only describes half the class, the tanking part. While not giving any hint to their entropy focused flavor and abilities.


Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Thundarr the Barbarian wrote:
After all, the Barbarian class is not called the Berserker, even though that is exactly what they do.
I wouldn't mind Barbarian being renamed Berserker.

Me too; in fact, I have wanted Berserker to be the name of the class since the beginning of 3rd edition D&D.

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Thundarr the Barbarian wrote:
then shouldn't the Ranger be called a Hunter
Near synonyms.

Not as much as you might think:

rang·er
/ˈrānjər/
noun
noun: ranger; plural noun: rangers

1.
a keeper of a park, forest, or area of countryside.
2.
a member of a body of armed men, in particular.

Nothing about hunting here.

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Thundarr the Barbarian wrote:
or the Oracle be called the "Divine Spontaneous Caster" (they aren't predicting the future as part of their class abilities, so why give them that name).
Because the plainest definition of Oracle is "medium for the gods", not just prophecy/future gazing, so Oracle is accurate since being a medium for the Gods is what they are.

I have to disagree. A quick search on Google gets:

or·a·cle
/ˈôrək(ə)l/
noun
noun: oracle; plural noun: oracles

1.
a priest or priestess acting as a medium through whom advice or prophecy was sought from the gods in classical antiquity.
a place at which divine advice or prophecy was sought.
synonyms: prophet, prophetess, sibyl, seer, augur, prognosticator, diviner, soothsayer, fortune teller, sage
"the oracle of Apollo"
a person or thing regarded as an infallible authority or guide on something.
"casting the attorney general as the oracle for and guardian of the public interest is simply impossible"
synonyms: authority, expert, specialist, pundit, mentor, adviser, guru
"our oracle on Africa"
2.
a response or message given by an oracle, typically one that is ambiguous or obscure.

So,when I see the most universal, common, and readily available search engine gets me results that give me a definition that is a more complete sentence that encompasses your definition and still focuses on advice or prophecy (especially in its choice of synonyms) it looks to me that your narrower interpretation of the definition is not any more valid than my narrower interpretation of the definition. Also, I would not call your chosen definition the "plainest". I think that is a matter of personal interpretation when throwing out that expression. So, my point remains valid. On that, I think I'll just have to agree to disagree.

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Thundarr the Barbarian wrote:
In short, I REALLY like the Vanguard name and find it the most fitting of all the new class names; so, please DO NOT change it.
I don't think it's a bad name outright, it just only describes half the class, the tanking part. While not giving any hint to their entropy focused flavor and abilities.

On this I agree with you; however, nothing suggested has been any more all-encompassing or better; at least not in my view. In fact, names like Endseeker, Entropist, and Chaos Warden just sound really bad to me and do not have definitions or implications that are anymore all-encompassing than Vanguard. Entropy, while being a synonym for chaos, is not necessarily the same thing. In fact, I could argue that it just as much to do with universal order as it is the inevitable process to which all things must eventually succumb.

Entropist? Is that even a word? (Also, it just does not sound good to me.)

Endseeker actually sounds cool, but I don't think it is any cooler than Vanguard and you are back to smashing words together with that name, which is something some folks have already complained about with other class names. With Vanguard, you have an already existing noun that works well for the class.

I don't mind Bastion as much as those (as I think it sounds cool, too), but it is still has a less encompassing definition than Vanguard and is even sort of counter to the what the class seems to represent because, after reading the class, it is clear to me that this class wants to be in the thick of everything and will move to where it needs to be to do that. Bastion implies holding out to the end in a more defensive nature. Bastions are about preservation of something, never changing, and holding on to the last; the ultimate defensive position. To the contrary, this class screams offensive tactics to me as those appear to be at the forefront thoughts behind the design of its abilities. Entropy is all about change; it is the ultimate change all things must eventually face. The term, Vanguard, is about those at the forefront, new developments, and moving forward. And always moving forward means always changing. In the military, those in the vanguard are always facing the toughest and heaviest fighting as they are "the tip of the spear" in strategic formations. That is where this class wants to be.


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Bastion would in a minor way impinge on the no duplicate names goal, since it’s the name of the Stewards’ HQ.


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> phágos - one who eats

I feel like the '-phage' suffix would be appropriate for a Vanguard rename. The vanguard deals heavily in the absorption and redirection of energy - a process not unlike consumption and digestion.

Entrophage?


I thought of some alternative, one-word names for the Witchweird. Take 'em or leave them, as you like (some of them are pretty dumb sounding to me, but somebody might like them):

Revisionist
Shifter
Geomancer
Spatialist
Actualist
Slider
Nomad
Wanderer
Worldwalker
Spherewalker
Domewalker
Biodomancer
Macronaut
Geonaut
Enviromancer


For those of you who want a word that might better exemplify the entropy aspect of the Vanguard class, I present:

Coda
co·da
/ˈkōdə/
nounMusic
noun: coda; plural noun: codas

the concluding passage of a piece or movement, typically forming an addition to the basic structure.
the concluding section of a dance, especially of a pas de deux, or the finale of a ballet in which the dancers parade before the audience.
a concluding event, remark, or section.
"his new novel is a kind of coda to his previous books"


A more sci fi name for the Witch Warper might be something like Quantum Shaper or Quantum Syncronizer?


Why does everyone want to name the Witchwarper "Quantum-(something)"? Is it solely based on the show, "Quantum Leap" where Scott Bakula traveled through time becoming different people along the way?

Not that the word, quantum, has anything to do with time or other realities, anyway...

Paizo Employee Starfinder Design Lead

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Thundarr the Barbarian wrote:
Why does everyone want to name the Witchwarper "Quantum-(something)"?

I presume it is because of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction and denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Thundarr the Barbarian wrote:
Why does everyone want to name the Witchwarper "Quantum-(something)"?
I presume it is because of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction and denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse.

Pretty much, when I read the Witchwarps abilities I thought immediatly about quantum branches aka alternate realities. According to the theory, every time you flip a coin, a new reality is created.

Other words that came to mind, liminality, paradox.


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I want quantum saved for a class who actually interacts with quantum effects. I want quantum tunneling powers to pass through barriers. I want damage mitigation through positional uncertainty. I want the...well, all the turn into light stuff the solarian zenith revelations have. (Wave particle duality etc)

I want a capstone called Ultraviolet Catastrophe.

I also want an at will slumber ability as your character tries to explain the maths behind their power set.

Signed, a bitter physics graduate.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Thundarr the Barbarian wrote:
Why does everyone want to name the Witchwarper "Quantum-(something)"?
I presume it is because of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction and denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse.

Ah; thank you. I did not know that.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I would rather Warpwitch over Witchwarper. Biohacker is fine and fits the class. Vanguard fits the fighting style, but not the powers theme of entropy and thermodynamics. Granted, I don't have better name for the powers and style abilities either.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The_Hidden_GM wrote:
How about Dynamo for Vanguard? It's both a device that converts mechanical energy in to another type (usually electric) and is a name for a dynamic person.

I second Dynamo as a more suitable name for the Vanguard.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Also when folks complain about "Quantum" as a fun word to use for a class that navigates multiple realities complain that radioactive spiders don't give you super-powers.

Weird fringe-science misinterpretation is part of the fun of the fiction.

You'll notice your spaceships don't keep their momentum in Space combat either.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Cthulhudrew wrote:
The_Hidden_GM wrote:
How about Dynamo for Vanguard? It's both a device that converts mechanical energy in to another type (usually electric) and is a name for a dynamic person.
I second Dynamo as a more suitable name for the Vanguard.

I think Vanguard is a good name, but I think Dynamo is 100% more rad!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I like "entropist" for the vanguard. "Dynamo" just sounds way too retro for my tastes, like something you'd find in a Flash Gordan comic.

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