Who's the most good god?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Shelyn seems like the nicest in general.

Silver Crusade

Acavna


According to the wiki she's CN. That said, her description makes her sound more like CG or NG to me.


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Iomadae. Because Lawful Good is the Best Good(tm)

</sarcasm>

But in all seriousness, probably Sarenrae. I would consider the rose in one hand, scimitar in the other the best metaphor for Good is Not Nice, and she gives evil the chance to repent, when practical.

Silver Crusade

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Yqatuba wrote:
According to the wiki she's CN. That said, her description makes her sound more like CG or NG to me.

Indeed.


Korada

because he seems to be more in line with what you would expect a god of redemption to be.


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Apsu gets brownie points for having the most rock solid paladin code out of the official ones written out. Leave it to the dragon to show those humanoid dinguses how to make a code.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Apsu gets brownie points for having the most rock solid paladin code out of the official ones written out. Leave it to the dragon to show those humanoid dinguses how to make a code.

Apsu is also (as far as i know) the only god who doesn't have oracles - because he believes cursing a creature is wrong, even if you also give them power.


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I can guarantee that the answer is not me. \owo/ Although I'm totally calling dibs on "most Lawful" and "most Chaotic".


I would say Vildeis because of the virtue of sacrifice.


I wanna go with Shelyn


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Seeing how the other thread went though, I think I'll switch to Kostchtchie.

Change my mind.


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As far as I can tell none of them.

All the Golarian gods simply seem to be spouting various types of proganda to gather in souls that then become fuel for their personal power.

Sure, some have propaganda that is nicer than others, but the Gods themselves are all simply predators/parasites at their core. Even the ones who use good messages in their ad campaigns are evil.


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Who set up Pharasma's system of soul sorting, anyway? Did the other gods have a say in the matter?


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That one god(dess) the agrees with your view of morality. Yeah, that's the one.


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Dave Justus wrote:

As far as I can tell none of them.

All the Golarian gods simply seem to be spouting various types of proganda to gather in souls that then become fuel for their personal power.

Sure, some have propaganda that is nicer than others, but the Gods themselves are all simply predators/parasites at their core. Even the ones who use good messages in their ad campaigns are evil.

If you going with the "Gods are powered by belief" thing, that's not how it works on Golarion and in the Great Beyond.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well... "good" is an extremely subjective subject most of the time.

For me?

The shortlist (I can do no better)-
Acavna
Black Butterfly (Her Obedience is awesome)
Shelyn (Dat Paladin Code, Yo)


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*Glances up*

Gods aren't powered by belief... but I think their divine realms in the outer planes (usually) are. More followers = larger realm = takes more time for the Maelstrom to eat it if they're near an edge.


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Yep, yep.

With Planar Adventure's we learned that souls who believe in the gods go on to become petitioners for their various planes of existence. These petitioners lose pretty much everything that made them who they were as a mortal, and either are sculpted into a higher being, feed their way into becoming a higher being, or else collapse into cosmic dust to power the outer planes from death or inaction.

No afterlife full of bunnies for these folks, just either being forged into an entirely unrecognizable version of themselves or turned into dust to be used to empower the outer realms.

Almost makes someone mad enough to rebel against this system and lock one's essence away so the gods can't get it. Of course, Pharasma takes offense to that for some reason...


Cayden Cailean is the Goodest of the Good Gods.


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Shelyn, if the faithful are to be believed.

Desna, if the faithful are to be believed.

Asmodeus, if the faithful are to be believed.

Iomedae, if the faithful are to be believed.

Irori, if the faithful are to be believed.

Azathoth, if the faithful are to be believed.

Can you sense the pattern?

Basically, pick a divine realm you think it would be neat to assimilate into and then a god that makes it as easy as possible to do so. There's probably a faith for you. If there isn't, take the Aroden approach and DIY yourself to divinity.


I meant the most good ALIGNED. Not which god do you like the most.


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MrCharisma wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Apsu gets brownie points for having the most rock solid paladin code out of the official ones written out. Leave it to the dragon to show those humanoid dinguses how to make a code.
Apsu is also (as far as i know) the only god who doesn't have oracles - because he believes cursing a creature is wrong, even if you also give them power.

{. . .}

Apsu has no oracles, for he believes inflicting a curse on a living creature is a terrible crime against that being, even in exchange for divine power.

{. . .}

Oracle
Apsu's Shining Scales can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Draconic Ally can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Tail Strike can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
{. . .}

Uhhhhh . . . .


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The book itself says Oracles that worship Apsu. The easy solution is while he doesn't make Oracles, an oracle can be empowered by another god (I'm actually fond of the good aligned Oracle of evil deity concept) and worship him.


blahpers wrote:
Who set up Pharasma's system of soul sorting, anyway? Did the other gods have a say in the matter?

Probably her, she’s one of the oldest and she is the most powerful so,,,, whose gonna argue. It’s not like gods get a bad deal anyway xD


One could consider not being able to make a realm on the plane suiting their alignment because the entire thing is used for one deity's thing to be a pretty bad deal, you know.


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Who set up Pharasma's system of soul sorting, anyway? Did the other gods have a say in the matter?
Probably her, she’s one of the oldest and she is the most powerful so,,,, whose gonna argue. It’s not like gods get a bad deal anyway xD

Kind of sure Pharasma isn't one of the oldest. Isn't she pissed at Lamashtu for devouring her mentor? Didn't she take over her mentor's job in the Boneyard?

As for the other gods, they probably didn't even think about trying to manage the souls of the dead until the Boneyard came into existance and then they realized it could be done. Then they realized that everybody was as interested in it as they are, and its probably best to not fight over it.

Most 'good'? Wouldn't that just be the philosophy of "Good" that allows a priest to focus solely on the Good domain without imposing any other restrictions on its followers?


Depends on what you define as good. On a metaphysical ALignment level, any Good God is the most Good God, as all are equally Good, in alignment. In terms of beliefs, well that's up to you. For all I care you might have a good reason why Asmodeus is the most good.


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Meirril wrote:
Kind of sure Pharasma isn't one of the oldest. Isn't she pissed at Lamashtu for devouring her mentor? Didn't she take over her mentor's job in the Boneyard?

You're mixing her up with Desna.

Lengthy Explanation:
Curchanus, the god of travel, beasts, and endurance, was mortality wounded by Lamashtu when she stole the beast portfolio from him, which ascended her to godhod. Before he died, he passed the travel portfolio on to Desna. His death is potentially the reason humanoids and animals don't get along as well as they used to, Daclau-Sar might be his reanimated god-corpse.

The various D&D settings had various death deities over the editions (How many did Faerûn have by now?), but in the Golgarion/Pathfinder/Starfinder setting, no death deity preceeding Pharasma is ever mentioned.


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I always thought that Pharasma was genuinely more powerful than the others. I could be mistaken though.


ShroudedInLight wrote:

Yep, yep.

With Planar Adventure's we learned that souls who believe in the gods go on to become petitioners for their various planes of existence. These petitioners lose pretty much everything that made them who they were as a mortal, and either are sculpted into a higher being, feed their way into becoming a higher being, or else collapse into cosmic dust to power the outer planes from death or inaction.

No afterlife full of bunnies for these folks, just either being forged into an entirely unrecognizable version of themselves or turned into dust to be used to empower the outer realms.

Almost makes someone mad enough to rebel against this system and lock one's essence away so the gods can't get it. Of course, Pharasma takes offense to that for some reason...

That's . . . nightmarish. I knew JJ was into cosmic horror, but . . . wow.


The NPC wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:

As far as I can tell none of them.

All the Golarian gods simply seem to be spouting various types of proganda to gather in souls that then become fuel for their personal power.

Sure, some have propaganda that is nicer than others, but the Gods themselves are all simply predators/parasites at their core. Even the ones who use good messages in their ad campaigns are evil.

If you going with the "Gods are powered by belief" thing, that's not how it works on Golarion and in the Great Beyond.

I'm going with the Gods are powered by souls thing. Souls make up their homes and are turned into their fanatic warriors. It isn't unreasonable to assume that they have other uses for them as well.

Being powered by belief is would be much more benign.


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blahpers wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:

Yep, yep.

With Planar Adventure's we learned that souls who believe in the gods go on to become petitioners for their various planes of existence. These petitioners lose pretty much everything that made them who they were as a mortal, and either are sculpted into a higher being, feed their way into becoming a higher being, or else collapse into cosmic dust to power the outer planes from death or inaction.

No afterlife full of bunnies for these folks, just either being forged into an entirely unrecognizable version of themselves or turned into dust to be used to empower the outer realms.

Almost makes someone mad enough to rebel against this system and lock one's essence away so the gods can't get it. Of course, Pharasma takes offense to that for some reason...

That's . . . nightmarish. I knew JJ was into cosmic horror, but . . . wow.

Also, if you tell Pharasma you don't want any part of that, you will be escorted to a quiet place in the Boneyard to mope for a few millennia before dissolving into the Boneyard's Spire once your personality is well and truly dead.


blahpers wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:

Yep, yep.

With Planar Adventure's we learned that souls who believe in the gods go on to become petitioners for their various planes of existence. These petitioners lose pretty much everything that made them who they were as a mortal, and either are sculpted into a higher being, feed their way into becoming a higher being, or else collapse into cosmic dust to power the outer planes from death or inaction.

No afterlife full of bunnies for these folks, just either being forged into an entirely unrecognizable version of themselves or turned into dust to be used to empower the outer realms.

Almost makes someone mad enough to rebel against this system and lock one's essence away so the gods can't get it. Of course, Pharasma takes offense to that for some reason...

That's . . . nightmarish. I knew JJ was into cosmic horror, but . . . wow.

I'm pretty sure this comes from 3.5 cosmology. This is incidentally why I laugh when people say "Well it does not make sense to be Evil in pathfinder when you can just visit Hell and see that it sucks!" All afterlives are basically the same, since you get erased.


Actually I suppose Rovagug might qualify as the most good. He is the only one really working to end this farce.


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blahpers wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:

Yep, yep.

With Planar Adventure's we learned that souls who believe in the gods go on to become petitioners for their various planes of existence. These petitioners lose pretty much everything that made them who they were as a mortal, and either are sculpted into a higher being, feed their way into becoming a higher being, or else collapse into cosmic dust to power the outer planes from death or inaction.

No afterlife full of bunnies for these folks, just either being forged into an entirely unrecognizable version of themselves or turned into dust to be used to empower the outer realms.

Almost makes someone mad enough to rebel against this system and lock one's essence away so the gods can't get it. Of course, Pharasma takes offense to that for some reason...

That's . . . nightmarish. I knew JJ was into cosmic horror, but . . . wow.

Honestly? I like it.

Death should be horrific. If there was an afterlife that was pleasent, anyone with half a brain would run off and get themselves martyred, first chance they get. And no one would be afraid of dying, and heroic sacrifices wouldn’t mean anything.


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Is there a god of immortality? Because in a world like that, that would be the most "good" god.


blahpers wrote:
Is there a god of immortality? Because in a world like that, that would be the most "good" god.

What are the ways to immortality? I know only the magical discovery from UM, and that would come from Nethys...


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I think it's important to remember that souls only merge with a plane after, basically, they decide they want to. The official explanation was something along the lines of "even the wonders of the outer planes can get tiring after a couple of thousand years", so they basically go "yeah, I'm done" and sort of fade out for awhile until the Maelstrom sends them to be reborn. Nothing forces them to do this.


Here's a weird thought: some demigods and other divine beings live on the Prime Material Plane. What happens to their followers when they die? Do they become petitioners "living" on Golarion or what?


Also what happens to Rovagug's worshippers when they die? I'm guessing they appear in his prison plane with him, at which point he eats them and gets a little more powerful and closer to breaking free...


I would hope the designers of the Dead Vault would have figured something out, maybe the monsters occasionally leaking out are there to prevent a buildup of power inside (then again, they might have banked on rovagug not getting any worshippers, but apparently Dou-Bral becoming Zon-kuthon messed that up). I wasn't able to find much in Planar Adventures on what happens to Gozreh's petitioners, though.


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Dave Justus wrote:
going with the Gods are powered by souls thing.

That makes all the primary gods look like daemons. I can't view them as feeding on souls, at least those without evil in their alignments.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Apsu gets brownie points for having the most rock solid paladin code out of the official ones written out. Leave it to the dragon to show those humanoid dinguses how to make a code.
Apsu is also (as far as i know) the only god who doesn't have oracles - because he believes cursing a creature is wrong, even if you also give them power.

{. . .}

Apsu has no oracles, for he believes inflicting a curse on a living creature is a terrible crime against that being, even in exchange for divine power.

{. . .}

Oracle
Apsu's Shining Scales can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Draconic Ally can be prepared as a 3rd-level spell
Tail Strike can be prepared as a 4th-level spell
{. . .}
Uhhhhh . . . .

Lol!

deuxhero wrote:
The book itself says Oracles that worship Apsu. The easy solution is while he doesn't make Oracles, an oracle can be empowered by another god (I'm actually fond of the good aligned Oracle of evil deity concept) and worship him.

Actually worshipping Apsu as an oracle makes a lot of sense: "I don't know which one of you scrubbs did this to me, but i know it wasn't Apsu. Not only that, but by worshipping Apsu he gives me more powers!"

It also means you have a powerful old god on your side when you finally kick the bucket and potentially meet your "patron".


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One thing to take note of is that reincarnation is a thing in the Pathfinder Lore. Not everyone gets reincarnated, but it isn't a rare event either. An entire race gets reincarnated.

In a large way you can look at death as a cycle with several possible endings. If you have a very strong soul that matches very well with the plane you end up on, you're likely to be transformed into an Outsider. It may take multiple souls, or even multiple outsiders could form from a single soul.

If your soul is particularly 'weak' it might decide to give up the fight and be consumed by the plane. Even some strong souls might decide to become a potion of the plane, but retain some ego.

More normal souls spend time on the plane where they undergo some process that is probably unique to each plane but eventually the soul departs from the plane and heads to the negative plane where it is 'consumed'. Some souls escape this fate and become reincarnated.

And new souls are constantly generated from the positive plane. Is it related to the souls destroyed in the negative plane? There is a strong sense that this should be a cycle of rebirth, but it really is unknown.

Some Undead also escape this fate. At least the ones where the soul is bound in undeath. There are other methods to achieve 'immortality', most requiring a substantial amount of personal power. Probably the easiest to achieve is repeated reincarnation.

And then there are beings that consume souls. Is this an ultimate evil that destroys the cycle of rebirth? Or does it just shorten the process with the same ultimate result?


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MageHunter wrote:
I always thought that Pharasma was genuinely more powerful than the others. I could be mistaken though.

JJ confirmed that years ago :)

Grand Lodge

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blahpers wrote:
Is there a god of immortality? Because in a world like that, that would be the most "good" god.

Urgathoa.

Sort of.

Silver Crusade

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Knight Magenta wrote:
blahpers wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:

Yep, yep.

With Planar Adventure's we learned that souls who believe in the gods go on to become petitioners for their various planes of existence. These petitioners lose pretty much everything that made them who they were as a mortal, and either are sculpted into a higher being, feed their way into becoming a higher being, or else collapse into cosmic dust to power the outer planes from death or inaction.

No afterlife full of bunnies for these folks, just either being forged into an entirely unrecognizable version of themselves or turned into dust to be used to empower the outer realms.

Almost makes someone mad enough to rebel against this system and lock one's essence away so the gods can't get it. Of course, Pharasma takes offense to that for some reason...

That's . . . nightmarish. I knew JJ was into cosmic horror, but . . . wow.
I'm pretty sure this comes from 3.5 cosmology. This is incidentally why I laugh when people say "Well it does not make sense to be Evil in pathfinder when you can just visit Hell and see that it sucks!" All afterlives are basically the same, since you get erased.

Actually going off The Redemption Engine Hell is one of the few planes where souls that aren't immediately sculpted into something useful get to keep their memories, or at least part of them.

Those souls also have Hell torturing them too so there's that.


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Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
MageHunter wrote:
I always thought that Pharasma was genuinely more powerful than the others. I could be mistaken though.
JJ confirmed that years ago :)

Powerful, but not "the most" powerful.

Steve Geddes wrote:
Is there any entity in the multiverse as powerful as Pharasma? More powerful?
Yes. Age is not the only factor in determining a deity's power.

Same page earlier also confirms that Pharasma was always the judge of the dead.

Also, much more recent:

I've said many times that Pharasma is the most oldest deity in the campaign, but "oldest" doesn't mean "most powerful."

So she's been around forever, and she is powerful, but she's not the top of the divine power high score list.


Rysky wrote:
Knight Magenta wrote:
blahpers wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:

Yep, yep.

With Planar Adventure's we learned that souls who believe in the gods go on to become petitioners for their various planes of existence. These petitioners lose pretty much everything that made them who they were as a mortal, and either are sculpted into a higher being, feed their way into becoming a higher being, or else collapse into cosmic dust to power the outer planes from death or inaction.

No afterlife full of bunnies for these folks, just either being forged into an entirely unrecognizable version of themselves or turned into dust to be used to empower the outer realms.

Almost makes someone mad enough to rebel against this system and lock one's essence away so the gods can't get it. Of course, Pharasma takes offense to that for some reason...

That's . . . nightmarish. I knew JJ was into cosmic horror, but . . . wow.
I'm pretty sure this comes from 3.5 cosmology. This is incidentally why I laugh when people say "Well it does not make sense to be Evil in pathfinder when you can just visit Hell and see that it sucks!" All afterlives are basically the same, since you get erased.

Actually going off The Redemption Engine Hell is one of the few planes where souls that aren't immediately sculpted into something useful get to keep their memories, or at least part of them.

Those souls also have Hell torturing them too so there's that.

Hell is paradise for people who believe in Evil. If you are the baddest dude on the block, you can actually get immortality in the afterlife. I like that, it nicely explains why you would want to be evil, even if you know what the cosmology is like.

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