Finally, With Feats, Anyone May Heal


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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Recipe:


  • Take full ranks in Heal
  • Mix with full ranks in Knowledge (Planes)
  • Stir using the Healer's Hands feat
  • Leave to bake until level 5, then pick up the Signature Skill feat for the Heal skill (or be an unchained rogue and get it with Rogue's Edge)
  • Continue adding ranks in Heal and Knowledge (Planes) with each level

Results:


  • Levels 1-4: Once a day per rank in Knowledge (Planes), as a full-round action, heal any creature that can be healed by positive energy by 1 hit point per hit dice with Treat Deadly Wounds, regardless of if you've used that skill already on them in the last 24 hours, with no penalty for not using a healer's kit, and if you beat the DC20 by 10 or more, add your ranks in Knowledge (Planes) to the healing, the only drawback being this is all a supernatural effect
  • Levels 5-9: Double healing to 2 hit points per target's hit dice, and also remove up 2 ability damage from each ability score, healing 10-18 hit points on equal-level targets without hitting DC30
  • Levels 10-14: Healing per hit dice and ability damage recovery doubles to 4, healing 40-56 on equal level targets without hitting DC30
  • Levels 15-19: Potency of effects increase to 6, healing 90-114 hit points on equal level targets without hitting DC30
  • Levels 20: As a full-round action up to 20 times a day, heal a target of 12 hit points per hit dice, plus up to 12 points of ability damage to each ability score - by now if not sooner you should be able to hit DC30 on Heal checks, adding another 20 hit points to your healing for a total of 32 hit points on one-hit dice targets, and 140 on equal level targets


So I'm really glad that this feat exists, and I'm amazed at how much this one feat grants you.

From what the feat provides:

* Reduces the time from an hour to a full-round action.
* Can Treat Deadly Wounds on the same creature more than once per day.
* Can heal an additional amount if you reach DC 30.
* No need for a Healer's Kit.

I feel the time reduction is the most drastic change to TDW, and it will have a major impact on combat as it allows mundanes to heal great chunks of their HP during encounters.

Frankly, I'm surprised this feat isn't locked behind a prerequisite of Channel Energy +3d6, an alignment of good, and two feat taxes.


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Wonderstell wrote:

I feel the time reduction is the most drastic change to TDW, and it will have a major impact on combat as it allows mundanes to heal great chunks of their HP during encounters.

Frankly, I'm surprised this feat isn't locked behind a prerequisite of Channel Energy +3d6, an alignment of good, and two feat taxes.

[whisper]Shhhh! They'll hear you.[/whisper]

<.<
>.>


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Well this gives me a way of having NPC docs without having to give them a level in Alchemist/Bard/Cleric or something.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Dot.


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If you want more flavor and the original recipe tastes a bit tame, you could try to sprinkle some LG Empyreal Lord worshipping on top of the dish.

The Resilient Martyr trait triples the effect of resting for a full day, which means you'd heal 6 hit points per hit dice (and 6 ability points) when you treat your own wounds at level 5.

Healing (at least) 30 hp as a full-round action at level 5 is pretty good.
But you'd need to invest into the skill to reliably pull it off in combat, I guess.

Also, if you're a Werebear you can increase the hit points healed by 50% with the Reviving Rest trait.


So, unlimited out-of-combat healing, for one feat? Interesting alternative for people who hate CLW wand spam...


Isn't that feat a bit... overpowered for a single feat, should it not be the top of a feat chain? (yeah, I hate feat tax as much as the next guy, but this one feels a bit... too much)


Well, it's not like healing with magic and wands was particularly difficult. And the version given above requires 2 skill ranks per level and a second feat, which is significant.


Matthew Downie wrote:
So, unlimited out-of-combat healing, for one feat? Interesting alternative for people who hate CLW wand spam...

You can only use the feat once per day per rank in Knowledge(planes), so it's not unlimited, especially at low levels.


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Klorox wrote:
Isn't that feat a bit... overpowered for a single feat, should it not be the top of a feat chain? (yeah, I hate feat tax as much as the next guy, but this one feels a bit... too much)

Power levels are relative by definition, so the question is: Overpowered compared to what? The ability to easily use a healing wand, something half the classes get for free at first level? Compared to that, one might consider spending one or two feats and two skill points per level to be underpowered in comparison.

Do the conduit feats break the boundaries of what feats were allowed to do? Hell yes. Do they make the game imbalanced as a result? Quite the opposite, actually - the stronger classes don't need them, thus they mainly benefit the weaker classes, in turn decreasing the differences between the two.

That said, two skill points per level in addition two the feat cost is indeed a noteable price - to quote my Shaman player: "I see myself running out of skill points. perception is must-have, spellcraft should have a few ranks, fly will come later on, I didn't even touch the knowledge skills yet."

On a side note, the Clockwork Surgeon trait allows adding the intelligence modifier (or, with a nice GM, allows TDW as a standard action), while Healer's Satchel adds the wisdom mod a second time.
The Precice Treatment trait is also worth mentioning, as it alters Heal to be an int based skill.


I dont think it's over powered to ask to hit DC 30 to get the full effects of something you need to put maxed ranks into 2 skills and take multiple feats and traits and items to really break.

It isn't just a feat. Its basically demanding you max 2 skills out. Which means that unlike the titles promise this is for everyone? It isn't. Not unless all you want to go is this, which makes you a more dedicated healer than the cleric.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I am so incorporating this into my mad doctor lava gnome construct inventor master alchemist! (Think of a medieval Dr. Wily from Megaman)


While technically anyone can use this method in reality it is fairly limited. If you are playing a class that already has access to magical healing the return on your investment is pretty limited. Spending 2 feats and 2 skill points per level is going to be difficult for a lot of classes to pull off.

About the only class I could see this being worthwhile for is a unchained rouge or possibly a wizard. A fighter trying to do this is using all his base skill points for this so has nothing left except for anything from favored class, INT, or race. Most other classes are pretty feat starved or already have access to magical healing.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

While technically anyone can use this method in reality it is fairly limited. If you are playing a class that already has access to magical healing the return on your investment is pretty limited. Spending 2 feats and 2 skill points per level is going to be difficult for a lot of classes to pull off.

About the only class I could see this being worthwhile for is a unchained rouge or possibly a wizard. A fighter trying to do this is using all his base skill points for this so has nothing left except for anything from favored class, INT, or race. Most other classes are pretty feat starved or already have access to magical healing.

True.

But I can see for example, a level 3 expert (Doctor) having these skills.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
I am so incorporating this into my mad doctor lava gnome construct inventor master alchemist! (Think of a medieval Dr. Wily from Megaman)

Thought you might want to see this build in action.


Ravingdork wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I am so incorporating this into my mad doctor lava gnome construct inventor master alchemist! (Think of a medieval Dr. Wily from Megaman)
Thought you might want to see this build in action.

Since the dear doctor is a gnome, you might want to consider the Vivacious alternate racial trait.

Vivacious wrote:
Some gnomes recover 50% more hit points (minimum 1) whenever they recover hit points from rest. /.../
Heal Skill Unlock wrote:
5 Ranks: When you treat deadly wounds, the target recovers hit points and ability damage as if it had rested for a full day.

Edit:

Vivacious wrote:

Source Inner Sea Races pg. 211

Some gnomes retain a trace of the vitality of the First World. These gnomes recover 50% more hit points (minimum 1) whenever they recover hit points from rest. Whenever they are healed of hit point damage by a spell, they heal an additional amount equal to 1/2 the spell’s caster level (minimum 0). The extra healing does not apply to spells that grant fast healing or similar effects. This racial trait replaces gnome magic and keen senses.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
A fighter trying to do this is using all his base skill points for this so has nothing left except for anything from favored class, INT, or race.

This is not a problem for fighters since the release of the Armor Master's Handbook and Weapon Master's Handbook.

Advanced armor training (adaptable training) and advanced weapon training (versatile training) will make a skill monkey out of any fighter.

None of those options get you Heal or Knowledge (planes), but when you have more effective skill ranks than a high-intelligence rogue, you can afford to put your two base ranks per level into those two skills.

I would also recommend using your two starting traits to make them class skills as well.

Wonderstell wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I am so incorporating this into my mad doctor lava gnome construct inventor master alchemist! (Think of a medieval Dr. Wily from Megaman)
Thought you might want to see this build in action.

Since the dear doctor is a gnome, you might want to consider the Vivacious alternate racial trait.

Vivacious wrote:
Some gnomes recover 50% more hit points (minimum 1) whenever they recover hit points from rest. /.../
Heal Skill Unlock wrote:
5 Ranks: When you treat deadly wounds, the target recovers hit points and ability damage as if it had rested for a full day.

Nice! What does that replace?


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I'm glad other people like this. I was excited to see it, especially when I realised its potential.

To repeat points made by others, while Healer's Hands is fairly good, by itself it isn't especially strong. While it reduces the time nicely, by itself it heals 1 hit point per the target's hit die. Once you can readily hit DC30, you add your Knowledge (Planes) ranks, but at level 20 that is 40 hit points per a use. As a full round action that's rarely efficient use of a turn, considering damage quantities at that level.

The full effects described come from excellent synergy with Skill Unlock (Heal), which increases the base healing by 2, 4, 6, and finally 12, as well as affecting ability damage. That's what I wanted to highlight, since the feats aren't associated by source or any formal feat chain.

It definitely takes some build investment, but is not limited by class, race or any other exclusive requirements. It's purely a matter of budget, like upgrading your Cloak of Resistance. Even a commoner could do it.

Thanks to everyone who has posted, especially those sharing further useful synergies. As P1E becomes a finished edition, I think promoting these possibilities over e.g. Combat Vigour is important for those wanting to encourage fresh blood.


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This looks great for those Godless Healing builds though this is kind of empyreal lord magic.


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Very nice! I see this getting some use.


Ravingdork wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I am so incorporating this into my mad doctor lava gnome construct inventor master alchemist! (Think of a medieval Dr. Wily from Megaman)
Thought you might want to see this build in action.

Must . . . Steal . . . Build . . . .


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
I am so incorporating this into my mad doctor lava gnome construct inventor master alchemist! (Think of a medieval Dr. Wily from Megaman)
Thought you might want to see this build in action.

Must . . . Steal . . . Build . . . .

That's what my Emporium is for! :D


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Bloodblocks and healer's gloves are really good for this, giving you a whopping +10 bonus on the checks for next to nothing. Makes hitting that DC 30 benchmark a lot easier.

A healer's satchel also adds 2 x Wisdom modifier of healing effect.

A monk or Empyreal bloodline sorcerer would be an AMAZING healer with these feats and items--and it would impact their other abilities hardly at all!


I'm looking at it for druid or hunter, where you want wisdom but unlike monk aren't as invested in point spread. Also unlike monk or sorc they have heal as a class skill so no need to grab that. Traits are important to me, as I can grab some other things I want or shore up some weak saves.


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I'd like to post a correction.

My brain shorted on the towering stack of multipliers at level 20.

Here's the correction, with change bolded:

"Level 20: As a full-round action up to 20 times a day, heal a target of 12 hit points per hit dice, plus up to 12 points of ability damage to each ability score - by now if not sooner you should be able to hit DC30 on Heal checks, adding another 20 hit points to your healing for a total of 32 hit points on one-hit dice targets, and 260 on equal level targets".


Monk of the Four Winds increases this further at 12th level with Slow Time.

Monk of the Four Winds wrote:

At 12th level, a monk of the four winds can use his ki to slow time or quicken his movements, depending on the observer. As a swift action, the monk can expend 6 ki points to gain three standard actions during his turn instead of just one. The monk can use these actions to do the following: take a melee attack action, use a skill, use an extraordinary ability, or take a move action. The monk cannot use these actions to cast spells or use spell-like abilities, and cannot combine them to take full-attack actions. Any move actions the monk makes this turn do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

This ability replaces abundant step.

Three standard actions, plus you still have your original move action. Notice how it says you can’t combine them into full-attack actions. This means by raw, you can combine them for non attack full-round actions, thus getting you two uses of TDW with the stuff in this topic.

Furthermore, if you have a nice GM, as already stated, Clockwork Surgeon could be read in this instance to lower TDW to a standard action, meaning you’d get three uses of it instead, as well as a move action.


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Psychic Healing might be useful if you haven’t TDW on the target that day, and don’t plan on doing so for the remainder of the day. It counts as TDW, but gives temporary HP equal to the amount healed for 1 hour, but the subject can’t be the target of both Faith Healing (which is what this actually is) and TDW on the same day, as per the feat.


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I know that bards also have access to healing magic, but since they aren’t as specialized with it as classes like Cleric, I think heal could work wonders with this class. Specifically, the Solacer archetype allows you to take 20 without increasing the time taken a numver of times per day. It also helps deal with sanity damage, increasing the heal skill’s versatility. It also treats it as a class skill!


Dotting...


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I put together an Empiricist Investigator with Precise Treatment trait for use in Return of the Runelords, and it looks like it'll be *crazy* fun.

At level 1 TDW heals for 1, which is fine. But at 5 he'll be have a +14ish (5 ranks, 4 Int, 3 Class, 2 Healer's Kit) without trying or really investing any additional resources, plus free inspiration (+1d6), so taking 10 will yield a DC 25 no matter what, which gets 10 HP + Int Mod + 1 Ability Damage per score, 5x per day.

At 10 he'll hit DC 30 without failure, yielding 50+Int HP + 4 Ability Damage per score, 10 times per day.

It's bonkers, and I love that it costs so little up-front to yield huge dividends from level 10 onward. At 20 it's 260 HP reliably, which is better than even Mass Heal can give someone, albeit at a full-round action. But that's 20 times per day.


While other interesting traits have been brought up Devoted Healer is interesting for this in two ways: First you could use it to increase healing by spending two full rounds (not a problem out of combat) but secondly it shows that you can take 20 on heal checks to TDW.


Would precise treatment give int as bonus to heal?

According to the trait it just allows wisdom to be replaced by int for the check. Where does it say it would give intelligence for the bonus if the check goes over a certain amount?


Just a Guess wrote:
While other interesting traits have been brought up Devoted Healer is interesting for this in two ways: First you could use it to increase healing by spending two full rounds (not a problem out of combat) but secondly it shows that you can take 20 on heal checks to TDW.

I've never gotten that trait. Take 20 times as long, for what? That's normally 20 hours. It was a garbage trait and still is.


Throw in the mystical healing feat and you get additional heal dice any time you heal.


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Cavall wrote:

Would precise treatment give int as bonus to heal?

According to the trait it just allows wisdom to be replaced by int for the check. Where does it say it would give intelligence for the bonus if the check goes over a certain amount?

My GM often rules that if a thing allows a stat to replace another stat, it does so for all applicable instances. Treat Deadly Wounds allows +(Wis Mod) additional healing when you hit DC 25, in addition to Healer's Hands allowing +(Ranks in Knowledge Planes) at DC 30. Since Int is being used instead of Wisdom for the check, Int is being allowed for the additional healing as well.


There’s also the friendless race trait for tieflings, which allows you to use TDW on yourself. Can’t you already do that, though?


Can Paragon Surge (Healer's Hands) be used to replenish your uses?


zook1shoe wrote:
Can Paragon Surge (Healer's Hands) be used to replenish your uses?

If I understand your question correctly, no.


Anyone have an opinion on Incredible Healer, either as an addition to Signature Skill, or instead of Signature Skill (if it's not available in your game?)


ZanThrax wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on Incredible Healer, either as an addition to Signature Skill, or instead of Signature Skill (if it's not available in your game?)

Hmm...Incredible Healer is a decent substitute. Until the skill unlocked Heal gets to 15 ranks Incredible Healer will provide more healing on a successful check.

Unless the person you are working on has Traits that increase the amount of natural healing they receive. Either of those traits triples the amount of healing from natural rest. If you have both you should heal 5 times as much. In those cases the skill unlock is much more powerful.


ZanThrax wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on Incredible Healer, either as an addition to Signature Skill, or instead of Signature Skill (if it's not available in your game?)

I wouldn't take it in addition, since it doesn't stack with Signature Skill.

And Incredible Healer wouldn't let you add your wis mod or ranks in Know: planes to the damage healed. So unless you've really invested the increased healing might not be worth it.

•••

Meirril wrote:
Unless the person you are working on has Traits that increase the amount of natural healing they receive. Either of those traits triples the amount of healing from natural rest. If you have both you should heal 5 times as much. In those cases the skill unlock is much more powerful.

What trait would that be? I know of Resilient Martyr, but was there another?


Wonderstell wrote:


Meirril wrote:
Unless the person you are working on has Traits that increase the amount of natural healing they receive. Either of those traits triples the amount of healing from natural rest. If you have both you should heal 5 times as much. In those cases the skill unlock is much more powerful.

What trait would that be? I know of Resilient Martyr, but was there another?

Reviving Rest. I thought you were the one that pointed this trait out before? Taking both means you are a Vildeas worshiping Werebear Kin.

Since both triple your healing from a full nights rest, then they equivalently add 2 to your base healing. So adding the 2 traits should be x5 healing rate, not x6 or the even more insane x9 if someone wants to argue that they multiply each other.


Meirril wrote:

Reviving Rest. I thought you were the one that pointed this trait out before? Taking both means you are a Vildeas worshiping Werebear Kin.

Since both triple your healing from a full nights rest, then they equivalently add 2 to your base healing. So adding the 2 traits should be x5 healing rate, not x6 or the even more insane x9 if someone wants to argue that they multiply each other.

Reviving Rest doesn't triple your healing. It increases the amount healed by complete bed rest from two to three HP per hit dice, effectively 50%.

I'd look into using Bone Reeds if you want to get more mileage out of Signature Skill.


Wonderstell wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
Anyone have an opinion on Incredible Healer, either as an addition to Signature Skill, or instead of Signature Skill (if it's not available in your game?)

I wouldn't take it in addition, since it doesn't stack with Signature Skill.

And Incredible Healer wouldn't let you add your wis mod or ranks in Know: planes to the damage healed. So unless you've really invested the increased healing might not be worth it.

The reason I'm looking at it is that at lower levels it seems like a lot more healing than Signature Skill. I put together a 6th level spirit whisperer wizard this afternoon, and he's sitting at +19 (+24 if he uses a bloodblocker) heal check. So beating the DC by 5 is pretty easy, but he has a wisdom mod of +0, so it doesn't matter. Hitting a 30 is likely, but that'll put his healing at 12 (assuming an equal-level party member) with Signature Skill, or 30 with Incredible Healer. At level 10 or 15, it might be worth retraining, but at lower levels it seems like the better option.


ZanThrax wrote:
The reason I'm looking at it is that at lower levels it seems like a lot more healing than Signature Skill. I put together a 6th level spirit whisperer wizard this afternoon, and he's sitting at +19 (+24 if he uses a bloodblocker) heal check. So beating the DC by 5 is pretty easy, but he has a wisdom mod of +0, so it doesn't matter. Hitting a 30 is likely, but that'll put his healing at 12 (assuming an equal-level party member) with Signature Skill, or 30 with Incredible Healer. At level 10 or 15, it might be worth retraining, but at lower levels it seems like the better option.

Seems like you've already done the math, then.

Before level 10 you'd probably heal others more effectively with Incredible Healer. Remember that you'd also heal ability damage with Signature Skill, though.

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