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In 1e, Summon Monster / Summon Nature's Ally was a mess because the initial list was released when there wasn't much content to add to it. We got strange additions to the list as books came out. Could we just solve this from the beginning by writing the summoning rules saying that you can summon anything with a "Summonable" entry/tag in the bestiaries and other books? That entry could list what lists they are added to, and at what level (Summonable III, as a tag in the monster block for instance). It could also list if they require a specific class feat to do it. I imagine there will be class feats to extend the list. The entry could be then "Summonable: Expanding Summoning III"
This is much simpler than trying to maintain a coherent list via additional sourcebook updates and splatbook feats. It avoids the problem that exists in 1e that when you buy a player companion, and it has a feat in it to extend the list. Then no future bestiary or supplement will ever add to that feat's list of choices, even if the new monster would thematically be a fitting monster for the list.
Getting this correct and simplified from the beginning will make the system steamlined and probably sell more bestiaries later as people (particularly in PFS) get them to extend their lists.
Completely agree with this
Maybe they should have an online resource with the entire list. It's annoying enough that the stuff is spread all over their gigantic bibliography.
Somewhat related, the devs talked about being very interested in more equal treatment of outsiders of a variety of alignments, especially in regards to summoning spells.
In PF1, the concern was avoiding giving an already powerful spell line power that scaled with each bestiary, but I like your suggestion of basically giving each bestiary a feat for that bestiary.
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The slew of different types of elementals very badly need to be included on the various summon lists as well.
The slew of different types of elementals very badly need to be included on the various summon lists as well.
Salt elemental to add insult to injury!
Somewhat related, the devs talked about being very interested in more equal treatment of outsiders of a variety of alignments, especially in regards to summoning spells.
In PF1, the concern was avoiding giving an already powerful spell line power that scaled with each bestiary, but I like your suggestion of basically giving each bestiary a feat for that bestiary.
That feels a bit silly unless the beastiaries have there own overarching theme(This is the demon book, this is the angel book, this is the wildness book, etc)
Mainly because it sounds weird to write down "Expanded Summoning Beastariy 3". I can see feats themed around different types. Like "Demonlogist" feat.
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.Why not just let players use the simple monster creation rules to create their summonable creatures with a few restrictions applied
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I really like the idea of adding the summon info in the monsters stat block.
Summon: Summon Monster II, Natures Ally III
And just like that the summons lists can expand and stay current. Then in the back of each Bestiary have a Summon Table that the GM can print out and give to any players that summon creatures.
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Honestly, I really like this idea. If you don't want to over complicate the stat block, it could even go in the description (like the text for improved familiars, etc., goes now). Having summons simply be added to the spell as they're released is far superior to waiting for occasional updates when the monster source material has already been out for a while.
With summons only getting 2 of the 3 actions available to a normal creatures, I think PF2 will be resolving some of the major issues people have with conjurers. Though T-rex v. Glabrezu skirmishes will always be a highlight from PF1 I think that we should have less to worry about massive summoned monsters wrecking encounters while everyone stands around and has drinks, and hopefully it can put the focus on utility. Expanding the list with new releases of bestiaries (as mentioned above) and focusing on adding things that bring utility casting and the likes to the list rather than direct damage would solve a lot of people's problems with the spell chain while still empowering controllers and utility casters.
Rip a page from 5e, divide summon monster into multiple spells.
Then summonable monsters are tagged [summon; spell; level]
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.Why not just let players use the simple monster creation rules to create their summonable creatures with a few restrictions applied
That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure that most players will have the time or interest in doing that. In addition, it is assuming that the monster creation rules have absolutely no exploitable loopholes in it that would let players game it. In 1e, it's possible to make drastically different power levels of monsters by stacking precisely different abilities, or applying templates that make things tougher even though they lower CRs (I'm thinking of the young template for instance, which gives +4 size bonus to Dex, while lowering the CR by 1. This can be devastating to parties applied to the correct base creature).
Secondly, if the player can build whatever they would desire at the table with this feat, it would be wildly overpowered. The player could choose the exact SLA, feats, spell-like abilities, etc.. to easily overcome the current challenge. Already in 1e, I see Conjuration Wizards scouring the summons lists for "just that SLA" to get them out of tight spots (which is inventive), but with this new system they could just create a monster blob with some hitpoints that happens to have what they need as special abilities right at that moment. (Oh! no one has see invisibility? Summon Monster IV something I just designed with Scent or see invisibility/constant)
I would suggest adding, in a later book (not the CRB, probably down the line in 2e's equivalent to to the Unchained book) an optional feat or subsystem to allow players to design summons before-hand with some guidelines, and have the GM approve them. This would be much like letting players design custom spells in downtime. But never allow summon spells to make up creatures "on the fly"
Secondly, if the player can build whatever they would desire at the table with this feat, it would be wildly overpowered. The player could choose the exact SLA, feats, spell-like abilities, etc.. to easily overcome the current challenge. Already in 1e, I see Conjuration Wizards scouring the summons lists for "just that SLA" to get them out of tight spots (which is inventive), but with this new system they could just create a monster blob with some hitpoints that happens to have what they need as special abilities right at that moment. (Oh! no one has see invisibility? Summon Monster IV something I just designed with Scent or see invisibility/constant)
The way to prevent this is to do like Starfinder did: While yes you get to "design" your own Summons... you only get a limited number (4 per spell level, and you can burn additional spells known for 4 per spell level more), pulled from a limited set of themes (each with their own specific template; themes include most Outsider types, occasional specific creatures, and a class-specific option for both of the current casting classes), and you do the designing when you take the spell known (with an option to change them out when you level up). So, say for instance a Summoner wants their level 1 Angel Summon to be a cherub, or (GM permitting, the grafts [templates] do have some built-in flavor but of course Flavor is Mutable is a rule-of-thumb I tend to live by) a celestial fox, or whatever you can... but mechanically it will be identical to any other Level 1 Angel summon (Base Stats as a Tiny Elemental, with the relevant changes from the Angel Summon graft, such as attack(s) being replaced with a Slashing damage Natural Weapon appropriate for CR, a 30 foot (Perfect) Supernatural Fly Speed, and the Common and Celestial languages, just for instance.) In essence it sort-of allows you to build whatever you want flavorfully, but really does restrict the mechanical abuse.